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Uron Teff
5 March 2006, 12:21 PM
Okay, folks, I've got a question for you.
Imagine a clone trooper somehow - may it be due to carbonite freezing or otherwise - was conserved from the clone wars and was revitalized in the middle of the Rebellion Era by Rebels.
Hard to imagine?
Furthermore he was somehow - may it be due to genetic and psychological reengeneering - freed from Palpatine's grip. This means he is more or less independant and joined the Rebel Alliance.

Now this all given I'd like to know how the people in the given Star Wars Universe react towards the former clone trooper turned rebel?
How would the Rebels treat him? Would they be suspicious? Would they trust him?
How would a jedi react on this clone?

Input would be very much appreciated.

Naga Sadow
5 March 2006, 12:25 PM
If I remember correctly, their is a comic that has Luke Skywalker and clone trooper. I do not know the details, perhaps if you find this comic book it might give you some of these answers.

kaeroth
5 March 2006, 02:37 PM
So, we're getting past the part where the clone gets used to the way things are now, right? Okay. I think the general attitude would be rather distrustful and kind of afraid. The Clone Wars were a bad thing, and clones were a bad thing. At least, that's the impression i've gotten about the later eras' take on cloning. Assuming Zahn's tales count on a canon-level you accept, cloning is illegal.
Ooh! There's a movie starring Kurt Russel called "Soldier". I think that's it. It's not the best movie. But it's about a brain-washed soldier type that gets abandoned by the military and he has to figure out how to live outside of it. It's not the best movie, but it'd be good fodder for thought on your question. I would recommend, however, that after you watch that you should go and watch "Big Trouble in Little China", or at least "Escape from New York", to restore your faith in Mr. Russel's ability to make good "bad" movies. and to laugh.

"Jack Burton. Me."

Uron Teff
5 March 2006, 03:53 PM
Well I've seen the movie Soldier and yes, you're defenitly right that Kurt Russel made better ones.
Nonetheless would it be obvious that he's a clone - when being outside/without his armor? Is it common knowledge that how clone troopers looked like? And therefore would he easily be recognized as clone trooper?
I guess a jedi could easily sense through the Force that he's a clone.

Vanger Chevane
5 March 2006, 08:07 PM
Given the Expertise-starved Rebellion, they're likely to take in a Clone Trooper or Commando.

If they're willing to forgive all sins of Imperials switching sides, a highly skilled Clone Trooper/Commando who could be one of the best trainers they have for advanced schools, let alone help setting up the Basic Regimen to get the most out of whom they do get would be an invaluable asset.

wolverine
5 March 2006, 10:06 PM
I am not even sure you could 'reporgram one', as to me that is genetically imprinted when they were made... And in the rebellion era, i am not sure if there is anyone with sufficient experience with clones to even identify where the 'markers' for that programming would be...

Darth_Cassed
6 March 2006, 03:28 AM
The question is, what does the genetic imprint tell them about their obedience? Recognize all superior officers and take orders?

Uron Teff
6 March 2006, 04:08 AM
Well I guess somehow there is imprinted obediens to Palpatine in the first place. Then there would be the obediens to the Republic at second. And then due to the fact that the Jedi were Republic Generals there was the obediens to the Jedi.
Or am I mistaken on this?

Darth Fierce
6 March 2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Uron Teff
Now this all given I'd like to know how the people in the given Star Wars Universe react towards the former clone trooper turned rebel?
How would the Rebels treat him? Would they be suspicious? Would they trust him?
How would a jedi react on this clone?

Input would be very much appreciated.

It'd be pretty much the same as when a stormtrooper turns Rebel. He would seriously have to pull his weight in benefitting the Alliance's cause in order to gain respect and trust. And even then, there would be some folks in the Rebellion who wouldn't be willing or able to trust him no matter how hard the former clonetrooper worked to gain respect. To some, the idea of "Once an Imperial, always an Imperial," would be hard to shake.

Darth Fierce :vader:

gmjabreson
6 March 2006, 10:00 AM
there are lots of samples in the WEG books of former Imperials changing over to the Rebels. Many Rebel officers were once Imperials. General Madine was a former Imperial after all. But the biggest example I'm trying to get at was Vin Nothos. A former Royal Guardsmen that researched many false records and defected cause of what he found out. He was barely trusted at all but did his job well. He eventually, against protests of his allegaince became one of the guards that protected the Alliance's High Command. He single handled held off an attack on the high command against over 20 soldiers long enough for the High Command to escape, where he later joined back up with them.
I think that a Clone would be okay inside the alliance, since most soldiers serving in the alliance aren't old enough to really remember the clone wars. Most were in their youths when the clone wars ended. But the clone should be ok and less harassed than one coming directly from the Empire over to the Rebels. and I agree, it would be interesting to find out what he could train new rebel recruits in to help restore freedom to the galaxy.

Uron Teff
6 March 2006, 11:35 AM
Furthermore I'd like to know how the Clone Wars and Order 66 were common/public knowledge. Did everybody knew that the Jedi Order was destroyed by the Clones (and Vader)? Or is this lost/hidden by the Empire?

kaeroth
6 March 2006, 12:38 PM
Another thing the keep in mind is that the Clones wars, and the clones themselves, started out at least as the purview of the Old Republic, which the Alliance is seeking to restore. In the OT there's no talk about the corruption that infested it there at the end; they just want to bring back the good ole days. For that, a clone trooper might be welcomed because of his former allegiance. I think it'd be doubtful that anyone would remember what the clones looked like, so they wouldn't recognize him on sight.
As to his programming.....hmmm. I doubt he would have, like, an "urge" to seek out Palpy and ask his bidding. One, you'd have to know and be able to prove that Palpy is the Emperor, which is arguable as to how well-known that is. Two, they were engineered to be loyal 1st to the *Supreme Chancellor* (not the emperor, although one could question whether they were loyal to the position or the person, and in the case of the person see the beginning of this paragraph), and 2nd to the Republic (not the Empire). These things were probably altered with gene therapy or whatever after the power rearrangement, but your Rip Van Winkle clone wouldn't have had the benefit of that. so he just might be one of the more devoted rebels, since it's in his genes to try to protect and restore the Republic.
I think if he told everyone he was a clone, or it was figured out, they might be a little weird towards him, but maybe even less than a defecting Imperial Unless you're dealing with people that know the truth about Order 66. In that case there comes the debate about whether or not he can overcome his breeding, and if he could be compelled to betray the Rebellion if the opportunity arose. Fun.

Darth_Cassed
6 March 2006, 01:12 PM
Well they may not be simply programmed to follow Palpatine from the start. It may be that Order 66 tells them that Palpatine has taken power and is now the galactic dictator, so I don't consider that to be a good assumption. They still, however, follow their superior officers.

Vanger Chevane
6 March 2006, 01:37 PM
It's more likely that Order 66 & the Loyalty issues were included in the Flash Learning Programs.

An Emdee-Oh with a good Cognitive Matrix package should be able to Deprogram the sleeper Clone without extreme effort, as well as help with the Cultur Shock experienced.

Having one on-hand in case a Sleeper Cell or something was discovered would certainly help in dealing with/recruiting them. ;)

Lucas Carr
6 March 2006, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Uron Teff
Furthermore I'd like to know how the Clone Wars and Order 66 were common/public knowledge. Did everybody knew that the Jedi Order was destroyed by the Clones (and Vader)? Or is this lost/hidden by the Empire?

I'd say that if this is known, Palpatine has put his own spin on it. The Jedi were traitors and were executed on charges of high treason against the Republic or something like that.

Uron Teff
6 March 2006, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Lucas Carr
I'd say that if this is known, Palpatine has put his own spin on it. The Jedi were traitors and were executed on charges of high treason against the Republic or something like that.

Now just out of curiousity: This might be a general question (and may not only be related to the Clonetrooper questions above).
Do you think the rebel soldiers and officers or even anyone involved in the Rebellion would belive Palpatine? I mean Palpatine is the announced enemy of the Rebels. He and the Empire.
Now would the Rebels believe anything what was told by him?

wolverine
6 March 2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane
[B]It's more likely that Order 66 & the Loyalty issues were included in the Flash Learning Programs.

An Emdee-Oh with a good Cognitive Matrix package should be able to Deprogram the sleeper Clone without extreme effort, as well as help with the Cultur Shock experienced.

I disagree that the droid would be able to do the deprogramming with out effort/ Firstly, do we know what the flash programming entails? How it is countered, IF that is possible? Whether the loyalty was imprinted in the genetics etc...

Lucas Carr
6 March 2006, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Uron Teff


Now just out of curiousity: This might be a general question (and may not only be related to the Clonetrooper questions above).
Do you think the rebel soldiers and officers or even anyone involved in the Rebellion would belive Palpatine? I mean Palpatine is the announced enemy of the Rebels. He and the Empire.
Now would the Rebels believe anything what was told by him?

I think that would vary from person to person. Unless those that know the truth, e.g. Senator Organa, has told them. And they believe him over the Emperor.

On the Edge
7 March 2006, 08:51 PM
I believe an Olod Republic Clone would at first seek his so called "Republic" only to reenter service on the basis of an unaltering sense of loyalty, have his entire sense of being shattered by the sheer magtitude of the events before, eventually going rogue or joining the Rebellion inorder to revive the only home he ever knew.

wolverine
8 March 2006, 10:02 PM
I am actually lenaing to more of the clone trooper staying with the galatic empire, since that is what became of the republic.

Vanger Chevane
9 March 2006, 02:02 PM
Right, but a Commando, who is vastly more independent a thinker that the Trooper (needing to work in small teams & solve problems on-the-fly effectively), is much more likely to successfully join & integrate fully into the Rebellion. B)

PsychoInfiltrator
9 March 2006, 03:04 PM
By Commando, do you mean Republic Commando, or ARC? They're very different things, after all. ARCs have all the insolence and independence of Jango Fett. They're also trained to be generals, and highly effective commandos, working alone in amny cases, due to their scarcity.

In order to work this thorugh, we need ot figure out whether we're dealign with an ARC, a Republic Commando, or a trooper.

Uron Teff
9 March 2006, 03:40 PM
It is defenitly a Clone Commando, no ARC trooper.
And I really like where the discussion is heading. :D

PsychoInfiltrator
9 March 2006, 04:06 PM
And I really like where the discussion is heading. :D

You mena to where we start blowing things up, free Kashyyk, and fight alongside the Wookies?

Ronin
9 March 2006, 04:09 PM
You've read Dark Lord? That deals with Republic Commandoes and Order 66 a bit...

PsychoInfiltrator
9 March 2006, 04:13 PM
I haven't-but you know that already.

I guess I really should, what with writing the whole ARC-responding-to-Order66-fanfic.

I will now stand and observe, inserting commentary only in places deemed appropriate. ;)

Vanger Chevane
10 March 2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
By Commando, do you mean Republic Commando, or ARC? They're very different things, after all. ARCs have all the insolence and independence of Jango Fett. They're also trained to be generals, and highly effective commandos, working alone in amny cases, due to their scarcity.

In order to work this thorugh, we need ot figure out whether we're dealign with an ARC, a Republic Commando, or a trooper.
The Hard Conact-type Commando. ARC's are extremely independent & could make the jump without much difficulty.

wolverine
12 March 2006, 08:41 PM
Another thought to ponder. WHat would the general populus of the rebellion feel about a clone trooper? What about those who DID live in teh clone wars???
Jedi who are in teh ranks of the rebellion??

The common man who is NOT a rebel/imperial??

Darth_Cassed
13 March 2006, 03:26 AM
Well I would imagine the general populace would bask in the glory of the clone trooper, as they are under the impression that they saved the Old Republic/Empire. Now obviously those who know the truth don't like them, but I think for the most part the truth of the clones' betrayal is a hidden one to the people of the galaxy.

gordoss_Vaa
22 March 2006, 06:08 PM
wouldnt most of the clone troopers be dead? You have to think about aging. They were grown at high speeds, using genetic manipulation, wouldnt the clone troopers be far to old going into say the time of the original trilogy? I believe the bulk of them would have died off. Also, i have heard from numerous sources, that the surviving clone troopers were just converted into storm troopers, over time the clones died off and were replaced by "naturals". They died off due to combat reasons and aging most likely.

my 2 cents

Uron Teff
22 March 2006, 06:12 PM
Yes, you're absolutly right. I just wrote this in my original thread starting post:


Originally posted by Uron Teff
Imagine a clone trooper somehow - may it be due to carbonite freezing or otherwise - was conserved from the clone wars and was revitalized in the middle of the Rebellion Era by Rebels.


And I think there was a comic where a clone trooper survived on a abandoned planet. And IIRC he looks pritty old.
And IIRC this comic was mentioned in this thread.

Vanger Chevane
23 March 2006, 01:45 PM
Clone Commandos, and possibly even troopers, were meant to be kept in Cryostasis until needed.

How long one can go before suffering "freezer burn" is complete conjecture. ;)

Jedi_Shadow
23 March 2006, 02:29 PM
Hmm, freezer burn. I never thought of that. Maybe that's why my clone's stats weren't very good when I started playing him...

Ubiqtorate
25 March 2006, 07:31 AM
Shadow, is that the first time you've mentioned Cherek in this thread?

Shadow plays a retired ARC trooper in our current campaign. Pretty cool character, really.

Since we started playing that campaign (with Shadow's ARC trooper), we've had quite a few discussions on what happened to the clones after the clone wars.

One of the main points we've come up with is that the Thrawn Trilogy talks about the clones "going mad," either as part of the Clone Wars, or shortly thereafter. Since we never see the Clones going mad in RotS, and since Shadow's character isn't mad, we've had to come up with an explanation for why the conventional wisdom as of about 10 years ABY is that the clones went mad. Our best explanation is this: the whole "clone madness" idea is a carefully fabricated piece of Imperial propoganda.

There's evidence as to how this myth could have been perpetuated, too. One way is just as simple as Order 66 itself. What kind of fighting force, tested in battle, turns on its commanding officers just like that? Yeah, the Jedi were traitors to the Republic and had to be disposed of, but for the clones to go off on them without asking any questions, after fighting alongside them for years? Seems a little crazy to me... Another thing we've discussed is, what happened to the clones after the Clone Wars anyway? They may have stuck around for a while, but what use would the Emperor really have for a rapidly aging, outrageously expensive fighting force when he had a vast, untapped conscript pool at his disposal? What do clone troopers do when they retire? Keep in mind that they've been trained since birth to do only one thing - fight - and most of them were genetically engineered to take orders without questioning. So what do these people do who have absolutely no education and to training other than how to fight? Well, we've speculated that the lucky ones might have ended up in mercenary units. The less-lucky ones might have ended up as dock workers, or in any other type of menial job where little or know training is required, physical strength is valued, and all they have to do all day is take orders and do mindless tasks. My opinion is that most of them would be viewed in the same context as the character of Lennie from Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" - great worker, strong as an ox, but just a bit slow-witted. Maybe even just a bit crazy.

For the ARC troopers and commandoes - the soldiers trained to think for themselves - life probably would have been better, but they still would have had to face the prejudices of the general population. The most common reaction of people to Shadow's character is either fear or disgust when they realize what he is. Usually it's some of both.

Now, as far as how that applies to clones in the Rebellion, well, take it for what you will. While the Alliance generally doesn't encourage prejudice and racism, people are still people, and most people in the Rebellion would have been raised on Imperial propoganda, including the idea that "the clones are crazy now and that's why we can't keep using them - join the Imperial Army today!" Maybe clones would face prejudice even there, too.

Jedi_Shadow
25 March 2006, 09:48 AM
As a matter of fact, it is the first time, Ubiqtorate, though there have been other posts on this topic that I've mentioned him in as well.

There is evidence to support your claim that "retired" clones take supportive roles. The Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary[i] (pg. 28)says:


After the war, many clone troopers retired from service because of battlefield injuries, innate deterioration, or accelerated aging. These troopers will be reassigned to boost landing platform-maintenance and emergency rapid-reaction squads.

And I think you're also right about how the general populace would view them. In the literature I've read so far, when a clone trooper is seen in public [i]without their helmet, it's more disturbing than with it. Apparently, people assumed that it was some faceless drone underneath, not unlike the droids they fight.

Uron Teff
25 March 2006, 10:01 AM
Well, thank you all for your comments, opinions and reflections so far. I have to say that Ubiqtorate's post and his view upon the evolution of the clones hit the nail on the head.
What about this:
Would a Stormtrooper who deserted from the Empire and joined the Rebellion be more likely accepted than a clone (trooper)?

And as for clone madness, I guess this has somethig to do with the more advanced acceleration of the clonig process. IIRC it takes Thrawn only 10 days to grow a mature clone...

But related to this. IIRC Thrawn's clones weren't present in the force. Is this due to the fact that he used ysalimari (sp?) to shield them from the so called "clone madness"? Or is this force emptiness typical for clones?

Jedi_Shadow
25 March 2006, 10:09 AM
Non-Thrawn clones are perceptible in the Force.

Ronin
25 March 2006, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Uron Teff
But related to this. IIRC Thrawn's clones weren't present in the force. Is this due to the fact that he used ysalimari (sp?) to shield them from the so called "clone madness"? Or is this force emptiness typical for clones?

Is their lack of presence in the Force similar to that of the Vong? I'd guess it's not as severe, since I believe the clones could be affected by Force powers, unlike the Vong.

Ubiqtorate
25 March 2006, 09:26 PM
I think Thrawn clones had a force presence, as well, but Luke mentions something about it feeling "not quite right." Not necessarily that there was anything obviously wrong or that they were freaks of nature, but just that there was something a little off about them.

Jedi_Shadow
25 March 2006, 09:35 PM
Where are we getting the idea that they weren't present in the Force? I seem to remember them being present, except of course during gestation, when the ysalamiri are around them.

wolverine
25 March 2006, 10:56 PM
IIRC, the whole clone madness / force thing with thrawn had to do with the clones being grown, sharing the same minds, and that 'weight' was what eventually made them mad. Growing them in the Null-force bubble of the Ysilmari, allowed thrawn to some how negate that..

Uron Teff
26 March 2006, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
Where are we getting the idea that they weren't present in the Force? I seem to remember them being present, except of course during gestation, when the ysalamiri are around them.

Well I guess it was me who did not remember the correct expression Luke used. Nonetheless, you all, would say that the clones from the clone wars were (not like Thrawn's clones) ot "strange" in the Force. Or rephrased: Could a Jedi tell that a Clone Wars clone is recogizable as a clone in the Force?

Jedi_Shadow
26 March 2006, 10:41 AM
According to Hard Contact and Triple Zero, they are distinct. When Etain first meets Darman, she senses him through the Force before she sees him, and the feeling she gets is of a young boy barely discovering the world around him, if I remember correctly. She thinks it's odd because she also senses the sharpened edge of his training, and I guess she'd never seen those two sensations in the same being. She is further surprised when this young boy turns out to be a tall man in heavy armor.

In Hard Contact, however, time has passed, and Darman (and the rest of the clones) have lost much of that youthful idealism through the harsh realities of war. I'm sure they acted much more their apparent age than before.

So in answer to your question, if a Jedi is familiar with the discrepancy in the clone trooper's maturation process (whether it's the age acceleration, or the non-stop training and cloistering on Kamino, or both) then yes, he can sense the difference. If not, he'll probably be just as confused as Etain was. Also, as time passes I think this discrepancy becomes less apparent.

In contrast, the Thrawn clones were super-accelerated. Unhealthily so, but I don't think Thrawn was concerned with their welfare as much as he needed warm bodies to pilot his ships and obey their officers to the letter. After all, they were just clones to him.

Perhaps the Thrawn clones had a similar presence in the Force that the Kamino clones did, only more extreme. If the Republic Commandos were childlike, these new clones would be downright infantile. While clone troopers started out naive, Thrawns may be accurately described as mindless.

They were all (both clone and Thrawn) cloned from human stock, I believe, and therefore were no less human than you or I. However, the "not quite right" likely stems from the age discrepancy. They obviously have not had the full range of experiences in life that their bodies would suggest, and that may be weird enough as it is. And I really think Ubiqtorate nailed it on the head when he said:


My opinion is that most of them would be viewed in the same context as the character of Lennie from Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" - great worker, strong as an ox, but just a bit slow-witted. Maybe even just a bit crazy.

Ubiqtorate
26 March 2006, 10:05 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole "weight of sharing the same mind" explanation (which is roughly the explanation in the Thrawn Trilogy) is just a case of somebody (in this case, even Admiral Thrawn himself) trying to explain something without all the facts. The idea that the clones went mad because of the weight of sharing the same mind is based on the assumption that the clones actually went mad at all, which may or may not be the case. Perhaps even Thrawn's clones would have been just as "normal" as the Kaminoan clones, even if he hadn't gone to all the trouble of locating ysalamiri. But that's just more speculation from me.

wolverine
26 March 2006, 10:18 PM
That is an interesting POV... perhaps someone needs to resurect thrawn to ask him..:D

Ubiqtorate
27 March 2006, 01:09 PM
Well, that's the interesting thing about having EU novels written before we knew much about the prequels - sometimes we have to go back and interpret things from a prequel point of view.