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Seanz0rz
11 May 2006, 07:12 AM
Ok when you first watch A new hope, and luke and obi-wan are talkin about the empire and everythin, it kinda felt to me like the empire had been there for ever and a day. Thats just the impression I got when i watched ANH for the first time.

But then you finally see ROTS and the twins are born right at the end, and you realize The Empire really only Existed for about 18-20 years before Luke blew up the death star for the first time. Then i'd say maybe two or three more years (maybe im wrong, it might be more...or less) before luke duels Vader in ROTJ and the Empires done. Short lived reign dont ya think.

darth_wyld
11 May 2006, 07:22 AM
Well, I'm from Germany, 20 years are enough for an evil empire to seem to last a thousand years...

Seanz0rz
11 May 2006, 07:27 AM
I would have to agree with you there. Id say living under opressive rule feels much longer than seeing it from an outsider perspective.

And id then have to say props to George for writing the story in such away that it even went as far as convincing us that the empire had been there much longer that it actually had just from the dialog and the way the characters reacted and felt towards the Emipre.

Xain Arke
11 May 2006, 07:37 AM
remember that from lukes perspective, the Empire has existed his whole life before ANH and continues to exist right up to the end of ROTJ, that is quite a long time for one military government to rule [hell, it's even a long time for a civilian government to rule] and in that amount of time a large amount of damage to civilisation can be caused.

some good real world examples of this are the balkans, somalia, and similar places that have had civil war for a decade or less..and are utterly wrecked.

as darth_wyld said


20 years are enough for an evil empire to seem to last a thousand years...

Xain

Seanz0rz
11 May 2006, 07:44 AM
Rock on with the historical analogy :D

darth_wyld
11 May 2006, 07:57 AM
Well, it's rather a Godwin, but woh cares :)

Ubiqtorate
11 May 2006, 08:58 AM
darth_wyld, (or any of our other German friends), when people who lived through the Nazi regime speak of it, do they similarly speak as if it had "been there for ever and a day"? You've already said that "20 years are enough for an evil empire to seem to last a thousand years", but did it seem that way at the time to those who were there, as well?

Marty-Wan
11 May 2006, 09:35 AM
Technically the Empire started at the end of ROS however it truly began a year or two after TPM as the Supreme Chancellor began to take more control and manipulate things his wy. I would say that the governing style of the Empire began with the Clone Wars. Let us not forget that in the original trilogy the Empire was still taking shape. Think back to ANH it was only then did the Emperor dissolve the senate, we can infer that the same senate we saw in the first 3 episodes was still in service up until the start of ANH.

darth_wyld
11 May 2006, 09:54 AM
Ubiquorate : Well, to be honest, I never talked to my grandparents about that view of the thing. And sadly all of them are dead now so I have no certain sources right now. Eyewitnesses of that time sadly get rarer and rarer...

boccelounge
11 May 2006, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Seanz0rz
Rock on with the historical analogy :D
Yeah, I second that! The responses so far have been excellent, IMHO.




Originally posted by Marty-Wan
Technically the Empire started at the end of ROS however it truly began a year or two after TPM as the Supreme Chancellor began to take more control and manipulate things his wy...
And I agree with this bit too-- was going to mention as much. I think the "dark times" Ben refers to in Ep4 can arguably be said to start, oh, 15-20 years previously. The characters didn't quite realize they were living in "dark times" (i.e., that their Galactic Ruler was a Sith Lord) during most of the Prequel movies, but from Ben's POV in Ep4, he'd have known this.

hatten_jc
11 May 2006, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Seanz0rz
Ok when you first watch A new hope, and luke and obi-wan are talkin about the empire and everythin, it kinda felt to me like the empire had been there for ever and a day. Thats just the impression I got when i watched ANH for the first time.

But then you finally see ROTS and the twins are born right at the end, and you realize The Empire really only Existed for about 18-20 years before Luke blew up the death star for the first time. Then i'd say maybe two or three more years (maybe im wrong, it might be more...or less) before luke duels Vader in ROTJ and the Empires done. Short lived reign dont ya think.

That is actuly not that unusual if you looking true history many so call
evil empire (Also some good empires) have a tendency to be like a Fire-cracer they go up and light up the darkness and then fade away leving only a dark memory behind.

Often those empires have ONE thing that keeps them glued toghter that is a charismatich leader that with a voice of silver OR a strategic tatich brillians forged a king dome.
After the Leader is dead the empire come crasing down like a house of cards.


Just remember true history.
Alexander The great. His great Empire died after he did.
Djingis Khaan. did not survive long after his son.
Adolf Hitler. Boom crash and no more


the Empera in Star wars where like that a man with a silver toung in manipulate others to follow him and with the force to back him up by controlling others manipulate their anger or needs and lojalty.

With out Palpatin as the empera it came crashing down.

But one must ask oneself this the hole rule of th empire where extremly centralices build competly around Palpatin and his powerfull ability to controll others.
Why is that ?

Is it becuse Palpatin knew that HE might not survive eternaly and refused to let ANYBDOY inherent his empire.
HE rather watched the hole empire come crassing down sending the hole Galaxy in to entenel civil war then see another leader take over HIS thron.

And that is a potential idea.
What IF the Empire Manage to cruss the Rebel Allaiance completly NOBODY hade the guts to stand up agienst HIM.
Then somehow Palpatin died Vader died and civil war the broke out as admirals and generals Moffs decided to become the new ruler.


Give me a game idea...

The AGE OF war campain in a galaxy on the brink of selfdestruct a new hope is born a leader is calling for arms joining old rebels pilots and Empire stormtroppers to stop the war and bring piece to the galaxy.

Ubiqtorate
11 May 2006, 11:54 PM
I spent a couple of years in Russia, and saw a lot of the same things in the echoes of the Soviet Union. Now, that was around for a little over 80 years, so it was even that much more entrenched than some 20-year empires, but it's certainly the case there that it seems like it could have been around forever. Of course, that could be because for most people, the Soviet Union was all they ever knew.

Interestingly enough, though, my experiences in post-Soviet Russia have impacted my Star Wars roleplaying, much as I'd expect anyone with experience in Germany to be affected by Germany's history. That's especially true in the way fallen Imperial heroes are viewed in the New Republic. (A woman in Russia once said to me, "In my day, we had one god, and that was Stalin." She meant it, too.) Many of the old ways, especially the Jedi, are not trusted by those who were brainwashed not to trust them...

Anyway, I don't mean to ramble, but I just wanted to point out that it's interesting to see how perspectives on history can affect even our roleplaying.

Pel
12 May 2006, 12:59 AM
That's very true. In many cases the legacy of a regime lives on long after the system itself is deposed. In SW terms the general mistrust of the Jedi culminated in NJO when half the galaxy was ready to hand them over to the Vong.

Once one is indoctrinated into hating the "other" it is very difficult to reverse that behavior. It appeals to many aspects of human psyche.

Fingon
12 May 2006, 06:51 PM
One thing I realized after watching the Origional Trilogy is how terrible and heart breaking it must be for people who lived during the time of the Republic to see what had happened, especially for Obi-Wan. They had this wonderious system and, as flawed as it may have been, the tyrrany of the Empire must seem truely awful.

I find the scene with Obi-Wan talking about Anakin and the Clone Wars very powerful; he traveled the galaxy, fought for the repbulic, and got to see the Jedi order crumble and Palpatine instigate himself as Emperor. And that he could have killed Anakin... I really don't like how Obi-Wan leaves him in Episode III.

Tonyx
12 May 2006, 07:33 PM
Fingon hit it on the nail. You know, that scene was always a little odd to me, but now that I have seen what Obi-Wan came from, I no longer feel that way. I see the feeling coming out in what Obi-Wan was saying. He had seen so much, and I can imagine that it hurt him some to see what had happened to the galaxy. Goes to show was a tyranny can do to a person.

Ubiqtorate
14 May 2006, 02:13 PM
I really don't think many people mourned the passing of the Old Republic. Even Padme commented, "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause." The mentality that led to both the Soviet regime in Russia and the Nazi regime in Germany was an attitude of "anything's better than this." In the prequels, we see a functioning Republic... or at least, it seems to be functioning to the affluent class on prosperous worlds such as Coruscant and Naboo. But the quiet revolution that brought Palpatine and the Empire to power was not the story of a conquering minority taking power counter to the will of the people. This was the story of a perfectly willing, neglected populace submitting to the iron fist of a dictator in the hopes that perhaps he could succeed in filling their bellies where the Republic had failed.

IzVenjari
14 May 2006, 08:26 PM
For people living under oppressive rule time seems to disappear - the past becomes a distant memory, the future (hope) doesn't exist and the present is all-encompassing.

From the eyewitness accounts i have read and listened to of people under Soviet rule and Nazi rule, and even Burmese and North Korean rule, it seems the easiest way for people to cope with a high level of oppression is to drown themselves in everyday things - the struggle to survive, the meaningless work, etc - and to reminisce about the old days as if they are on the distant verges of memory. The old if i can't see it it won't affect me kinda thing.

Even in society's with relative freedom, but high rates of crime, a similar situation exists - try hard to ignore the problems and maybe it won't hurt me - S.Africa is a prime example - unfortunately seeing as it is such a beautiful place (not that i've been, just heard) but fortunately freedom of movement is not restricted, so many people are getting out.

Anyhoo, enough rambling :)

Ubiqtorate
18 May 2006, 05:21 PM
That makes a lot of sense, IzVenjari. I can't say much from my own experience about the past becoming a distant memory, but it does seem to be that way. I only met one person in Russia who was old enough to remember the Bolshevik Revolution, and she was only a little girl at the time - not really aware of the politics of what was going on, or even aware of what the change represented. Again, also, I go back to the point of the past being not a particularly happy memory for a lot of those people, too. The Russians saw Lenin and the Bolsheviks as their saviors from economic depression and starvation, just as the Germans saw Hitler and the Nazis as their saviors from economic depression and starvation.

Evidence for that kind of parallel is present in the Star Wars movies. The Republic must have been strapped for cash, or the whole taxation of trade routes issue wouldn't have come up in the first place. Also Shmi Skywalker's assertion that "The Republic doesn't exist out here," despite Padm's apparent understanding that, at least officially, Tatooine was part of the Republic. Not to mention the kind of things going on in Coruscant's undercity. These were people ripe for revolution. But now I'm just repeating myself...

Ubiqtorate
18 May 2006, 05:21 PM
Moderators please delete this duplicate post.

gmjabreson
18 May 2006, 05:50 PM
I think Palpatine planned on living forever, that's why he didn't pick a sucessor to his Empire. He had the Cloning Facility in the Deep Core to continuously supply him with a fresh body to take over when the Dark Side consumed the one he was in.
He just wasn't figuring on death that far away from the cloning facilities. Remember, "everything has been proceeding as I foreseen it". The Emperor was counting on Victory at Endor, not defeat. He foresaw a great victory for the Empire at Endor, according to his vision of the future.
What I can say of history is this. No matter how long a civil war lasts, the damage is there for a long time. I was in Bosnia a couple years after the war was interrupted by peacekeepers. I've been to Sarajevo in 1999, and then there were still buildings with bullet holes still in them. I went on patrols and watched people clean unexploded ordinance out of their destroyed houses, in attempts to rebuild their lives.
And I agree on the idea of the Empire forming around the events of Episode 1. It makes sense after you consider it. After all, Obi-Wan does say "before the dark times, before the Empire".

Ubiqtorate
18 May 2006, 10:52 PM
But didn't the Emperor forsee himself being defeated by Luke and Vader together?

gmjabreson
19 May 2006, 05:06 AM
not necessarily. Remember he says before the fight begins, "as you know your father can never be turned from the darkside"

Ubiqtorate
19 May 2006, 07:55 AM
True... but turning Vader back to the light side is not the same as Vader and Luke joining to defeat the Emperor. My understanding is that what the Emperor foresaw, or what he thought he foresaw, was that Luke would turn to the dark side, become Vader's apprentice, and together they would kill the master, in the old Sith tradition. However, both Vader and the Emperor are known liars, so who knows who could have really been foreseeing what?

Tonyx
19 May 2006, 08:16 AM
Even if he did foresee him dying to Vader and Luke, that doesn't mean he wasn't trying to change things. I am sure it is something he didn't want to happen, so he would have lied when he needed to in order to survive.

gmjabreson
19 May 2006, 10:10 AM
shaking hand and rolling dice to check against bluff/con by the Emperor. Oh man, I failed again. Just like many citizens of the Empire.

Tonyx
19 May 2006, 07:31 PM
I think that sometimes we underestimate the power that the Emperor had and that he used. Many failed as gmjabreson did to pass a con check against him. He seamed too nice or something, I don't know, it is odd, but he just conned everyone into things, and it worked!

:?

gmjabreson
20 October 2006, 06:13 PM
Actually one must remember that the Empire fought on longer after the Battle of Endor. They just didn't "Give up" or anything like that. So if you take into consideration the event of Palpy being appointed Chancellor at the End of Episode 1, and that it was I think 19(?) After Battle of Yavin that the Empire Finally agreed to a Peace agreement between itself and the New Republic (Hand of Thrawn duology and ensuing comics).
So it would appear that the Empire was actually around longer and still dominated parts of the Galaxy for over 40 years.

Jedi_Master_Yelrahc
16 November 2006, 06:35 PM
I thought the Empire was truly revived when Thrawn showed up and then when Daala showed up, those two were beasts I would have been scared if they both were working together at the same time that could have really done some damage

Darth Iurus
26 November 2006, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
But didn't the Emperor forsee himself being defeated by Luke and Vader together?

In the words of The Matrix: You can never see past a decision you don't understand.


Originally posted by Jedi_Master_Yelrahc
I thought the Empire was truly revived when Thrawn showed up and then when Daala showed up, those two were beasts I would have been scared if they both were working together at the same time that could have really done some damage

Daala would have at best stewed under the leadership of Thrawn. Her greatest strength upon attacking was her determination, but she wasted resources to an extent Thrawn would have stripped her of her rank.

On note about Thrawn, is it just me or did the Moff Council have no input during his period as warlord?

Alis_Morningstar
15 December 2006, 02:06 PM
As far as the Emperor foreseeing his own death, remember Yoda's words "Hard to see, the dark side is." I think that being so tainted may have led to a distortion of his visions, where he saw what he wanted. After 20 years, it is a long time, and may seem to be forever. Remember that speaking of eras, a generation is generally every 20-25 years. Most of a generation had grown up knowing only the Empire. As for if it seems to be an Evil Empire, in most cases it depends on if your the ones being oppressed.

Jedi_Master_Yelrahc
17 December 2006, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted By Darth Iurus
On note about Thrawn, is it just me or did the Moff Council have no input during his period as warlord?

I thought Grand Admiral's were of higher rank than the Moffs, but then again I could be wrong. Here is one thing to consider, do you really think the Moff Council would get his way, who knows maybe he had one of the Noghri kill a couple of them to make a point that he is the one that would be the bette leader.

Darth Iurus
18 December 2006, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Master_Yelrahc


I thought Grand Admiral's were of higher rank than the Moffs, but then again I could be wrong. Here is one thing to consider, do you really think the Moff Council would get his way, who knows maybe he had one of the Noghri kill a couple of them to make a point that he is the one that would be the bette leader.
He's certainly superior to them- I believe it would take a majority vote of the Moffs, if not a unanymous vote, to over-rule him (probably more than that, since Imperial Law is different from Remnant Law, for obvious reasons). I'm just wondering why you don't see or hear from any of them once during the whole thing.

wolverine
18 December 2006, 07:31 PM
Regular moffs, yes, but wat about grand moffs, like tarkin?? Would a grand admiral be higher than them?

Darth Iurus
18 December 2006, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by wolverine
Regular moffs, yes, but wat about grand moffs, like tarkin?? Would a grand admiral be higher than them?
In their territory, no. Even the Supreme Commander/Military Executor, Lord Vader, anwered to a Grand Moff within their territory of control (in Tarkin's case, the Death Star). Otherwise... most likely. There were far more Grand Moffs in the galaxy than Grand Admirals.