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Hush
5 August 2006, 05:28 PM
In KOTOR there are a number of weapons, items, cloths and armor that have special abilities and saves. How would one go about creating said bonuses? Could someone imbue the force into say robes or non powered items like staffs or armor to make them more suited for force users?(besides the ForceAdept Force Weapon) There is currently to my knowledge no such class or ability.

FULONGAMER
6 August 2006, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Hush
In KOTOR there are a number of weapons, items, cloths and armor that have special abilities and saves. How would one go about creating said bonuses? Could someone imbue the force into say robes or non powered items like staffs or armor to make them more suited for force users?(besides the ForceAdept Force Weapon) There is currently to my knowledge no such class or ability.

There are a number of KotOR and KotOR2 crossover threads here in the forums, exploring just about all the gear and enhancements from the games. Pretty much all of it is materials or technology based as opposed to "force magic" item upgrades. That said, several of the enhancements are tailored to interact with certain force abilities and such, but outright magic-doohickeys are few and far between. I won't say these upgrades are entirely balanced either....that is the very nature of Videogame Imports to the RPG, but that is also discussed in these threads.

Hope this helps.

Admiral Piett
6 August 2006, 12:28 PM
as far as I know the only objects imbdeded with the force are Light-Saber Crystals. Wether or not a Jedi could say, use the force to increase the power of a Blaster weapon is beyond me.

Hush
6 August 2006, 02:43 PM
Well, if you consider that the jedi use the force to construct a lightsaber; it would stand to reason that they could also use it in crafting or customizing blaster weapons to be more effiecent.

Uron Teff
7 August 2006, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Hush
Well, if you consider that the jedi use the force to construct a lightsaber; it would stand to reason that they could also use it in crafting or customizing blaster weapons to be more effiecent.

I would say no to a Force Customization of a blaster weapon. If you remember that the lightsaber crystal inside the lightsaber is Force imbued. And now what would you imbue in a blaster pistol? The focusing lense? The power pack? Doesn't sound right to me...

FULONGAMER
7 August 2006, 04:36 AM
Just to nitpick, the Lightsaber crystal is not "Imbued" with any special Force power in the construction process, it is manupulated in the construction process to perfectly mount it as a system component, potentially even being refined and altered to make the installation "force precise" and utterly flawless.

That intimate connection with the lightsaber, knowing it's every nuance, is what gives the Jedi his "personally built lightsaber" bonus, not any Resonant Force Power. This is reinforced by the fact that the bonus only applies to the ARTIFICER of the blade, not any Tom, Dick, or Harry-Wan who picks it up.

That said, if anyone were to apply the same focus and force enhanced manipulation as in the Lightsaber Construction Rules to the hand-crafted construction of ANY other weapon, a similar bonus could indeed be reached.

Uron Teff
7 August 2006, 04:51 AM
Yes, you're right FULONGAMER, my assumption wasn't all correct. But nonetheless this self-build blaster weapon (f.e.) would only grant a minor bonus to the usage of the weapon by the builder of the weapon (i.e. in d20 a +1 bonus on Ranged attacks with this weapon).
But still there would be the Control (Constitution), Alter (Intelligence) and Sense (Wisdom) checks and the craft (blaster pistols and rifles) to be made. With this, the character who built the weapon - and this one - would gain the +1 bonus to attack with this weapon.

Sorry for the recapitulation... :rolleyes:

Rodney Preyar
7 August 2006, 11:33 AM
There is also mentione a f-skill named "imbue". you can find it in the "Jedi Templar thread" on http://swrpg.wikispaces.com/

It is the opposite of the alchemy skill,that means the light side variant.

Rodney

Sarge
8 August 2006, 04:53 AM
The old D6 Jedi Handbook also had Imbue. IIRC, it was based on a TotJ comic in which a Jedi master used the Force to enhance a wooden staff so it could parry a sabre.

PsychoInfiltrator
8 August 2006, 06:46 AM
The old D6 Jedi Handbook also had Imbue. IIRC, it was based on a TotJ comic in which a Jedi master used the Force to enhance a wooden staff so it could parry a sabre.

Kun's master did that...and the scenee gave rise to one of the best (IMO) Darkhorse comic book lines in history regarding two lightsabers and a 'stick.'

Rogue Trader
8 August 2006, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
Kun's master did that..
Vodo-Siosk Baas. And the ability was first demonstrated in Dark Lords of the Sith.

Master Dao Rin
8 August 2006, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by FULONGAMER
Just to nitpick, the Lightsaber crystal is not "Imbued" with any special Force power in the construction process, it is manupulated in the construction process to perfectly mount it as a system component, potentially even being refined and altered to make the installation "force precise" and utterly flawless.

That intimate connection with the lightsaber, knowing it's every nuance, is what gives the Jedi his "personally built lightsaber" bonus, not any Resonant Force Power. This is reinforced by the fact that the bonus only applies to the ARTIFICER of the blade, not any Tom, Dick, or Harry-Wan who picks it up.

That doesn't make sense since, if you say, the Force is used to make this creation "force precise" then the bonus should apply to anyone using such a crafted weapon of perfection.

There is no evidence that perfect precision is the only explanation for this bonus. According to the rules, the crystal is imbued - however that's accomplished. Whether the force remains in the crystal or is transferred through the crystal to help some other process is never clearly defined.

Since the Force is so intimately connected to the possessor, I would rule the opposite. I should think that any weapon utilziing these rules should get the same bonus. The rub is, it would have to be something that could hold and contain the Force of the individual so that shared duality is achieved; not any focusing lens or galavanizing coil will cut it.

On that note, I would rule that other weapons would be extremely unorthodox and unlikely to be created as a lightsaber would.

FULONGAMER
9 August 2006, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin


That doesn't make sense since, if you say, the Force is used to make this creation "force precise" then the bonus should apply to anyone using such a crafted weapon of perfection.

There is no evidence that perfect precision is the only explanation for this bonus. According to the rules, the crystal is imbued - however that's accomplished. Whether the force remains in the crystal or is transferred through the crystal to help some other process is never clearly defined.

Since the Force is so intimately connected to the possessor, I would rule the opposite. I should think that any weapon utilziing these rules should get the same bonus. The rub is, it would have to be something that could hold and contain the Force of the individual so that shared duality is achieved; not any focusing lens or galavanizing coil will cut it.

On that note, I would rule that other weapons would be extremely unorthodox and unlikely to be created as a lightsaber would.

You missed the rest of the point. Yes, It is the Force that allows a Jedi to hand craft the weapon with the precision neccesary to make it work at all. I didn't say THAT was the reason for the bonus. It is the PROCESS of using the force to create the weapon that innately and intimately connecte the Crafter and the Crafter only to the weapon they craft. The rules for Lightsaber creation AFFECT the crystal, not IMBUE it.

It does not "hold" the force in it any more than any other thing exists within the force in general. It is the "fingerprint" in the force of the crafter that allows the Pesonal Use bonus of the weapons they craft.

It is still less than the "masterwork" bonus a crafter can place in an object they manufacture, in that that type of bonus does indeed apply to all users. And there is nothing to say that a Jedi could not overlay the requirements for mastercraft on top of the Personal Use crafting requirements and benefit from BOTH (+2) in their hands. Such a weapon would be only a +1 in any other weilder's hands. A "Normal" lightsabre is not by it's nature a "mastercraft" item and therefore does not transfer the bonus to all users.

That said, if a force user were to apply the methodology of lightsaber creation to the creation of another type of weapon, the Personal use bonus would apply. If they were to instead apply their crafting efforts in the Method of the Mastercrafter, that bonus would apply instead. If they were to follow both rule subsets, both could apply.

I do agree that the Personal Use bonus methodology as applied to other weapons is certainly unusual and rare, but not impossible.

Master Dao Rin
10 August 2006, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by FULONGAMER
You missed the rest of the point. Yes, It is the Force that allows a Jedi to hand craft the weapon with the precision neccesary to make it work at all. I didn't say THAT was the reason for the bonus. It is the PROCESS of using the force to create the weapon that innately and intimately connecte the Crafter and the Crafter only to the weapon they craft. The rules for Lightsaber creation AFFECT the crystal, not IMBUE it.

It does not "hold" the force in it any more than any other thing exists within the force in general. It is the "fingerprint" in the force of the crafter that allows the Pesonal Use bonus of the weapons they craft.

No, I got your point.

I believe you are saying that the Force focuses the senses of the crafter so intently on the item under construction that they learn every crack and cranny in said item that they somehow gain superhuman skill with the item's usage. That process leaves an impression within the Force that the crystal responds to positively, thus allowing a link that makes it easier for the Jedi to connect with.

Well, I don't buy it.

Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pick up that weapon, study it and use it 24/7 for 20 years every single day, sleeping with it, never leaving its appendage. Rationally speaking, this non-creator *should* get the same sort of intimate understanding that this Jedi does in much less time. Yet, I'm betting you'd say that they wouldn't get that bonus.

So, by that reasoning you're saying the Force imparts something else that anyone not as sensitive to the Force would never be able to obtain. Knowing what we know about the Force, seeing as this inanimate object is not in any way composed of living matter (which is required re: the Force) something else must be operating here then in order to achieve this affect we are both agreeing takes place.

That's all I'm saying. To me, the Force is creating an effect that is beyond the ken of normal beings, and that this link that is created through the Force within creator and that which is created is also of such a nature. Its a mystical, supernatural bond with something which is more a part of the creator than what is normally possible when someone crafts something. A mastercrafter achieves a similar result, a similiar intimate familiarity with their crafted item, yet no such mystical bond takes place.

In other words, the lightsaber IS a part of the Jedi, not apart from as in the case of mastercrafters who focus on the technical mastery of item creation. That weapon is not an inanimate object, nor is it a separate hunk of metal; that weapon is literally and figuratively an extension of the Jedi's own soul/energy field/will or whatever analogy you use to explain one's place within the Force.

So, Fulongamer, whereas you stress that the Force works from the outside in, I'm stressing the exact opposite - that the "fingerprint", as you say, works from within the Jedi himself. The crystal symbolically represents that idea.

Fingon
10 August 2006, 07:11 PM
Wait, I'm confused... Dao Rin, if you are saying that the bonus that the Jedi gets is becuase the Saber is, in a way, tapping into that Jedi's 'soul/energy field' wouldn't that mean that still only that Jedi would gain the bonus? I mean, if the Saber is on a different planet and being used by a Rodian Smuggler, or the Jedi is dead, certainly the saber wouldn't still gain this bonus, if the source of it was from the Jedi himself. And I'm still a bit fuzzy on your idea why the bonus exists; could you clarify that a bit?

FULONGAMER
11 August 2006, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin


No, I got your point.

I believe you are saying that the Force focuses the senses of the crafter so intently on the item under construction that they learn every crack and cranny in said item that they somehow gain superhuman skill with the item's usage. That process leaves an impression within the Force that the crystal responds to positively, thus allowing a link that makes it easier for the Jedi to connect with.

Well, I don't buy it.


That is not what I said. In addition to allowing a being to craft with hand tools something that would be a challenge for the most advanced and controlled engeneering processes to attempt to replicate, it combines the assembly with the refinement of the components. It is also that part where the Force manipulates the components, removing flaws in components, and increasing the efficiency of the energy transfer to nearly unheard of levels. The force is used on all the components of the lightsabre, not just the crystal. The acts of change, willed by the individual and decided on by the flow of the force impart a synergy to the union of the Jedi and their personal use sabre.


Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pick up that weapon, study it and use it 24/7 for 20 years every single day, sleeping with it, never leaving its appendage. Rationally speaking, this non-creator *should* get the same sort of intimate understanding that this Jedi does in much less time. Yet, I'm betting you'd say that they wouldn't get that bonus.


No, that would be a person achieving the various levels of Weapon proficiency, expertiese, and specialization with a weapon. There are also "personal weapon" feats and such that various classes develop around. That is absolutely not the same.


So, by that reasoning you're saying the Force imparts something else that anyone not as sensitive to the Force would never be able to obtain. Knowing what we know about the Force, seeing as this inanimate object is not in any way composed of living matter (which is required re: the Force) something else must be operating here then in order to achieve this affect we are both agreeing takes place.


I qoute to you : "....Between you, and me, the tree, the rock, even the land, and the ship." Living is not a requirement for something to "exist" in the force. A complete understanding of this thing, even a non-living thing, is possible within the force. Places as well can resonate with the effects of the force in their vicinity, the Cave on Dagobah springs to mind. The whole spending the Force point and getting it +1 back is a facet of the deepening of the Jedi's understanding of the force in all things, as well as understanding their perception of it. Note that the FP is a factor of Personal Use Bonus saber creation, not sabre crafting in general, which can be accomplished at any time by those with the skill.


That's all I'm saying. To me, the Force is creating an effect that is beyond the ken of normal beings, and that this link that is created through the Force within creator and that which is created is also of such a nature. Its a mystical, supernatural bond with something which is more a part of the creator than what is normally possible when someone crafts something. A mastercrafter achieves a similar result, a similiar intimate familiarity with their crafted item, yet no such mystical bond takes place.


No, a mastercrafter utilizes exceptional materials and/or exotic processes to produce a thing that is fundamentally superior to mundane varieties, bestowing that bonus or feature to the thing itself which can be used to that advantage by any weilder. The Jedi crafting a "personal use" saber is gaining a sympathetic or harmonic synergy effect, that is only imparted when the crafter is the weilder.


In other words, the lightsaber IS a part of the Jedi, not apart from as in the case of mastercrafters who focus on the technical mastery of item creation. That weapon is not an inanimate object, nor is it a separate hunk of metal; that weapon is literally and figuratively an extension of the Jedi's own soul/energy field/will or whatever analogy you use to explain one's place within the Force.


If that is how you have to rationalize it. The Jedi forges an extension of self into the personal use lightsaber in the creation process. How that connection is made is undoubtedly as unique as any Jedi's understanding of the Force and their place in it is. I am reminded of the descriptions in the YJK books of the lightsaber creation approaches used by Jacen, Jania, Tenel Ka, and Lowbacca. Their understanding and execution of the process was as unique as their results.....Then again, so was the ultra-cheezy Corran Horn variety accomplished with all the finesse of MacGuyver. A great deal of Force Based alterations and adjustments were imparted in that jury-rigged jumble.


So, Fulongamer, whereas you stress that the Force works from the outside in, I'm stressing the exact opposite - that the "fingerprint", as you say, works from within the Jedi himself. The crystal symbolically represents that idea.


That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that it is the Jedi's newfound understanding of the object, derived from the creation process that allows the Jedi to accept this foreign thing as a part of themselves thusly imparting the bonus. The fingerprint is as much a part of the overt acts of the creation as well as the new understanding of both the process, the force, and the elements involved themselves.

PsychoInfiltrator
11 August 2006, 06:41 AM
Oh no, not again! This is turning into the now-closed lightsaber flamewar thread.

I believe Hush was asking, "Could someone imbue the force into say robes or non powered items like staffs or armor to make them more suited for force users?"

Which, incidentally, is a yes or no question. His follow up request was for a class or ability which could do this. Instead of getting into a heated argument, I'd advise those who would say no to the previous question, to say no, state their reasons, and do nothing. The yes people say yes, state reasons, and provide methods of doing so.

Since Hush clearly wants such a method, in a rules-codified format, (he originally asked this question in my TAOD recruitment thread, incidentally,) I'd advise that somebody try and give it to him. Then you can discuss that, improve it, whatever.

But int he meantime, discussions of how lightsabers work are off-topic, and the topic for which they are on topic was closed for a reason.

If you want to talk about it in a thread again, I'd advise talking to the mod(s) and seeing if reopening siad thread might be possible. Or handle it inprivate, by PM. The point of a debate is not to convinve the other person, but to voice your opinion. Not to destroy the other's argument, but to understand it, and help them clarify it.

EDIT: fixed some typos.

FULONGAMER
11 August 2006, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
Oh no, not again! This is turning into the now-closed lightsaber flamewar thread.

I believe Hush was asking, "Could someone imbue the force into say robes or non powered items like staffs or armor to make them more suited for force users?"

Which, incidentally, is a yes or no question. His follow up request was for a class or ability which could do this. Instead of gettign into a heated argument, I'd advise those who would say no to the previous question, to say no, state their reasons, and do nothing. The yes people say yes, sate reasons, and provide methods of doing so.
(snip)
But int he meantime, discussions of how lightsabers work are off-topic, and the topic for which they are on topic was [B]clsoed for a reason/B].


The discussion at hand hinges on the nature of force enhanced items and/or bonuses for force users of items and how such items may be generated. Not "how lightsabers work" but how the force is used to generate a user bonus to items.

To that extent, No, I do not believe such items as a general "magic item" stockpile of options and abilities belongs in any game. Where they are found at all let them be few, rare, and far between.

Yes, bonus generating items and mods may cartainly exist, and should, but their application in a game would tend to be generated from a crafter/masterwork skill suite, rather than "force magic" as a source.

As a source of such items, the examples of such things given being the knick-nackery assortments of mods available in the KotOR games. Those mods, as explained, are almost entirely a factor of exceptional materials and/or masterwork item upgrades with specific arrays of bonuses and penalties, not entirely balanced in their (so far) conversion to D20 or D6 rulesets. Further exploration and analysis of said mods to be represented in a more balanced format is certainly a worthwile project to undertake. I'd suggest review of the existing conversions, careful weighing of their merits into your choice of game tone and power level, and active engagement with your GM to get a compromise set of solutions available for your game.

Master Dao Rin
11 August 2006, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
Wait, I'm confused... Dao Rin, if you are saying that the bonus that the Jedi gets is becuase the Saber is, in a way, tapping into that Jedi's 'soul/energy field' wouldn't that mean that still only that Jedi would gain the bonus?

Possibly.

What I'm saying is the the saber gets a piece of the Jedi's energy, making it a weapon with what one might say is "sentience", or more preferably a "will" of its own in the same vein as the Force has a will. This will isn't anything other than the very "will" of its creator.

In other words, the Jedi connects with his creation simply because the creation is the Jedi's own psyche/will/energy/force or whatever word you want to describe. The Jedi "fingerprints" the lightsaber with their own energy to use Fulongamer's analogy. They act as one because they are one. This meshes perfectly with the idea of the lightsaber in the first place, and the symbology inherent in the idea of a magic sword and what the meaning Jedi are supposed to derive from its creation. So one can say the bonus stays within the creator, not the item itself, if only because both sources are the same*.

It turns out Fulongamer and I are saying the same thing, in a way, with different views on the methods. My main difference is that the Force has nothing to do with the creation of the item and everything to do with what's happening within the creator himself. The act of creating the item is a source of enlightenment for the creator; the imbuing is merely a physical process by which this enlightenment is accomplished and serves as a reality upon which the creator can focus on. I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that the Force somehow "super-technically" makes the materials "better" than anything else that can be accomplished by advanced technology.

Note that this doesn't mean the saber can act on its own, or that its an "intelligent" weapon. Far from it, I don't think the crystal / lightsaber actually does anything other than give off the barest faint aura of its owner. But one strong in the Force, one whose mastered their sensitivity to such things could, say, pick up a lightsaber and be able to tell who created it by the "feel" it gives off (especially if they knew this person in life). Or an innocent being could pick up a weapon and feel safe or be comforted by embracing it, for example, or feel uneasy or have their skin crawl with the opposite (a Sith's weapon). Unconsciously, depending on the creator, other minor benefits could be utilized (ie brief visions of past life of owner or something like that).

That's all. I'm not advocating for "magic" weapons, but lightsabers should be as close to that idea as one can get in this space fantasy wouldn't you say?

And, by extension, the same arguement can be used for the Force Adept's Force Talisman. And, as the original poster inquired, should and could be extended to other items as well. Simply expend a Force Point and get a small bonus to the item's function in question.

* However, this does not mean that the bonus couldn't be imparted on other individuals at the whim of the Force since the item itself now holds the Force within it and, by extension, the same experience that gave the bonus to the creator. I can easily see, for example, a padawan picking up his master's lightsaber and gaining the same bonus his master has with that weapon.

Fingon
12 August 2006, 07:31 PM
Meh... yeah, I think PsychoInfiltrator is correct, this isn't the thread for this discussion.

Anyway, to jedi-enhancing objects, I would tend to agree with the general concensus; there are probably objects, items, weapons, etc that have a more powerful connection to the force than your average rock, but they are pretty rare. For example, the Cave on Dagobah held an 'echo' of the force, so did the temples on Yavin 4. I would think, by that same token, a particulat object could also. That could be translated, in RPG terms, to a bonus to attack or AC or something when the object was held/weilded/whatever. What they did would depend on the nature of the object.

Ronin
13 August 2006, 01:53 AM
Well, while non-Jedi there is the Telepath(UAA p.214-217)'s Recepticle ability, that lets the character imbue an object with power. It takes a lot of money, XP and time but the finished recepticle contains 50VPs which the Telepath can essentially use as a battery.

Crymoon
28 August 2006, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Hush
In KOTOR there are a number of weapons, items, cloths and armor that have special abilities and saves. How would one go about creating said bonuses? Could someone imbue the force into say robes or non powered items like staffs or armor to make them more suited for force users?(besides the ForceAdept Force Weapon) There is currently to my knowledge no such class or ability.

First I'm very, very careful about using object from c-games into any kind of RPG. Firstly a computer game is completely differently build and thus requires a number of arcade items - such as lots of personal shields (the game character doesn't have spot skill so for gamers sake they need some additonal protection) and same goes for armor and weapon upgrades etc. whereas in p-n-p rpg the character is build and balanced in a different way.

Now coming to imbuing objects - I'd say that's it's possible but
1) you need a proper feat (which with GM agreement could be taken at a set level in place of another one) think about hero's guid rules and a make it a bit like - jedi+force adept+techie - call it jedi artificier or whatever.
2) you need a proper crafting skill. - Force isn't magic so you can't just take a blaster and say I'm using the force to make it better...How? if you know how the blaster is build and you understand the way force influences items then you could do it.
Jedi is taught how to create a lightsaber, how to use the force in its process thus he can do it. A force adept can imbue talismans and weapons with force but I also imagine it more of a skill of creating a eg. wooden sword imbued with force then taking any stick and saying woosh you're now my super weapon.
So imbuing an exisisting items would be probably cnnected with taking them apart just to be sure how they are constructed and then putting them back again by the use of the force.
I'd rather go for creating of new force imbued items - but those should be rare not to loose the balance that is so imprtant in RPG.