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commanderSolo
28 August 2006, 02:22 PM
this is more about the storyline of star wars that i'm having difficulty accepting,

many people believe that stormtroopers are actually left over, or new clone troopers. i have also seen this theory on many websites, including starwars.com. some books say that the emperor even created more, however the problem i have with this is that the emperor also recruited humans.

this makes me wonder if the emperor stopped using clones because he was afraid that someone would use the flash memory against him, such as he had done with order 66, or if he had no more use for them because he controlled the empire, or if he was still using them.

if anyone has any information, it would be greatly appreciated


-Commander

kaeroth
28 August 2006, 03:00 PM
I think I have heard several people quoting The Lucas himself saying that by the time of the OT, all Stormtroopers were conscripts as opposed to clones. They even had sources to cite, though what those were I cannot remember. But that idea flies in the face of the changes that he made to the OT himself with the DVDs (changing all the stormies' voices to be that of Temuera...Morrison?). That implies that the stormies are still clonies. So it appears there is a conflict at the G level of canon (which, really, is no surprise, since George isn't interested in making a perfectly cohesive universe so much as telling an enjoyable story).
There's the idea that if you were a really good stortrooper, or officer that you'd get cloned so that the Empire could have a bunch of folks with your mettle to make into soldiers.
I never liked the idea that the accelerated aging of the clones continued after tey were "born". It makes it impossible to come across wizened veterans in OT period, ex-soldiers that remember doing awful things and not quite understanding why... I think the accelerated aging is somewhat more than just rumor; I think it's "official" at some level, so if you're tyring to stay within the rules completely then I bet the clones have all died of old age long ago. Then there's the Zahn thing about clones going crazy if grown too fast, but Zahn had to make up a bunch of stuff about the clone wars that was later overturned by the clone wars movies.
It certainly makes sense that Palpy would stop using clones because he feared having someone use the same trick he used against the jedi on him. He was quite paranoid. Maybe it was cheaper to train a conscript than it was to grow and train a clone (though it nevere seemed like cost was a deciding factor in a project's gettingthe green light or not).

I don't know, those are just some of the things I've heard. I like the idea that most of the clones have retired or been killed by the OT, and Palpy occasionalyl clones a choice specimen drawn from conscripted populations. But for the most part, stormtroopers are normals.

Jedi_Shadow
28 August 2006, 04:05 PM
Why do you have difficulty accepting this?

Why can't the Emperor create more clones?

Why can't the Emperor recruit humans?

Why can't the Emperor do both?

I've just finished Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno. It sheds some light on Order 66, and the transition to Stormtroopers.

First off, it should be noted that Order 66 was not in a "flash-memory" in the sense that once the order was given, all clone troopers within earshot turned into zombie Jedi-killers. Yes, they were trained to be loyal to the Republic, and certain individuals (particularly the Clone Commanders) were trained to be loyal to Palpatine above the Republic, but there is no hypnotic or chemical trigger to obey beyond the threat of consequences for disobeying an order that comes directly from the Commander in Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic.

Such a situation occurs in the previously mentioned book, and Darth Vader tracks down the insubordiates and executes them himself, which suggests that such an occurence was anomalous enough to warrant swift and public punishment from the very highest echelons of the Empire, but I digress...

So the idea of Palpatine not wanting his own trick pulled back on him isn't correct, because he didn't pull that trick in the first place.

Secondly, I'm curious about the idea that the Stormtroopers' voices have been changed for the DVD release. Last I saw it was only Boba Fett whose voice was dubbed by Temuera Morrison, and not the Stormtroopers. I found that noteworthy myself because it further reinforces the change between the clone troopers of a couple decades before, and the "modern" stormtrooper.

It's of note to mention that the Republic Clone Troopers became Imperial Stormtroopers almost instantly. This is not because they stopped being clones, obviously, but rather as a result of Palpatine changing the face of his New Order. The title of Republic Clone Trooper suggests something far different than Imperial Stormtrooper. It wasn't until some time later, as "Kaminoan" or "Fett" clones die as a result of battle or accelerated aging, that new recruits are obtained from the cream of pro-Imperial military crop, and that noteworthy individuals from those ranks are even chosen as templates for clone production, as kaeroth pointed out.

So I pose the question again, what exactly are you having difficulty accepting? And why?

commanderSolo
28 August 2006, 05:11 PM
firstly i would like to explan flash-memory. it was first written in the Zahn trilogy, and basically it iss an artificial memory, not a chemical or hypnotic effect. Flash memories either come from the original host or are created in order to give the brain background knowledge. order 66 is (what i am guessing) a secret memory of the emperor's secret plan slipped somewhere in the memories.

Stormtroopers are, like any other soldier, trained to obay every order (though i'm not saying they always do, but that's just how their trained.) so there would not be a "hypnotic" or "chemical" effect.

Regretfully i have not yet read dark lord: Rise of lord vader due to lack of time, however the thing i had difficulty accepting is that it's either one or the other. and i did want to see if there was other information that i did not know about, and you both pointed out points i did not see, which i see there was. and if the emperor did stop using them i wondered "why?".

cheshire
28 August 2006, 05:35 PM
I think it's hasty to say that there are no clones by the time of ANH. Listen to the AotC audio commentary. When Jango hits his head on the door of his ship, Lucas said that it was deliberate. It was meant as a tip of the hat to the ANH Stormtrooper that hits his head on the door. He said it was more or less a joke to suggest that it was a genetic thing.

Lucas seems to imply that some of the clones are still alive. However, he also made the suggestion in the ANH commentary that conscripts or sons of politicians made it into the mix (and I'm trying to remember if he suggested that they were cloned as well), and hence the degraded performance of the Stormies.

In the end, it really doesn't matter much. The whole thing doesn't have to be consistent. They're just movies and books.

Jedi_Shadow
28 August 2006, 07:06 PM
Thanks, commanderSolo, I think we're on the same page now as far as the definition of flash-memory. I'd like to add that from any sources that I've found, I've never seen any sort of flash-memory implemented with the clones. Accelerated memory surely, but no instant artificial memories. And nowhere have I read that Order 66 was a flash memory.

I've also never seen any evidence to indicate that it was either just humans or just clones. Sure, there are no clones mentioned in short stories or novelizations prior to the Prequels, but that's because the writers couldn't predict the future. And there may even be more recent publications that show only clones, or only humans, but just because you only see one doesn't mean that the other doesn't exist somewhere else.

And the concept of "both" is occasionally touched on from time to time in publications. In Star Wars Empire #36, Janek Sunber notes after a battle that none of the regular human troops survived the battle. The corresponding picture goes further to show the surviving clones, all of whom are blue eyed and blonde.

Perhaps there is an explanation for why you often only see one or the other. Perhaps mixing clones and humans together presents a bit of disunity among the ranks. After all, Stormtroopers (and Clone Troopers before them) are trained to be identical in performance and purpose. To look at a squadmate and say "We're different because you're one thing and I'm not" may sound ridiculous, but it's a part of the human condition and it happens. So perhaps they are segregated by squad as a way of preventing such a schism.

Master Dao Rin
29 August 2006, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by commanderSolo
if anyone has any information, it would be greatly appreciated

This is what I think:

The stormtroopers are and will always be clones. Until I see something believably different, the Kaminoans are still faithfully churning out clones for the Empire until its end. And they are probably fabulously rich to boot as a result, so that when the Empire falls they easily make the transition to the New Republic (however you want to take that).

They are clones because the Special Editions all give them TM's voice, and they still bonk their heads on blast doors.

Later the training seems to have deteriorated (which I note below). I also think the need for a full standing army is reduced once Order 66 is enacted - the Death Star project seems to supports this idea.

In regards to Order 66, I think it was imprinted into the clones when they were learning (at 5 years old), conditioned in to compliment their docility genetic tampering. If you'll notice, the hologram that gives Order 66 is of Darth Sidious, not the Commander-in-Chief of the entire Republican Army, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (I will have to re-watch that again just to be sure). That, to me, says overriding their chain of command and enacting their new genetic programming.

It was at that point, I argue, that stormtroopers began to "degrade" in quality; they begin to lose their edge and can't hit the broad side of a barn as the years go by. Think of it as an elaborate Sith "Control Mind" technique, with genetics instead of the Force. It is my belief that, like the Jedi, the Emperor wanted to hobble the greatest threat to him - his loyal Republic soldiers (stormtroopers) - by degrading their genetics and instilling in them genetic mind control techniques that will allow him to control the military via Order 66 (this, I think, is how most disloyal Imperial officers were taken out - "Execute Order 66" - not the ISB which the EU has led us to believe).

Thus Order 66 was not specifically for the Jedi, but for their commanding officers ...

Jedi_Shadow
29 August 2006, 02:59 PM
From starwars.com databank entry on Stormtroopers:

Following the rise of the Empire, the military cloning program expanded to include new clone hosts. By the time of the Empire consolidated its power by dissolving the Senate, the ranks of the Imperial stormtroopers would include cloned infantry from multiple sources as well as birth-born conscripts and recruits from various worlds.

Believably different enough?

kaeroth
29 August 2006, 03:02 PM
Hmmm...MDR (may I call you MDR?), thems're some interesting theories. I'm not sure I agree with them but I like the way they feel. But I have a problem, I think, with the last one. If the Clonies killed *all* the superior officers, then where'd the the naval and army commanders we see in the OT movies come from? I mean, I suppose they could have been recruits/deckhands/cadets/whatever, but who would they have learned from? Not in a training sort of way, but in a stand-by-the-side-and-learn-the-skills sort of way. Or maybe they didn't have anyone to do that with, and that's why, for the most part, the Imperial Navy command is not that great.
But! Tarkin was in the Republic navy, at least according to the EU (which you can toss out if you want, though I like to try to include as much of it as I can), undt he didn't get O66'd.
And about the degradation of clone quality....how many battle sof Kamino were there? Do we ever see Kamino defeated? Perhaps they eventually ran out of "original" Jango material, and began cloning clones. After several generations of that the quality goes down, much like that tape that's a copy of your friend's copy of his older sister's copy of her friend's copy of Standing on a Beach. Or...something.
I dunno. I don't want to fight it too much, though, since otherwise the whole thing feels nice and elegant...

Kalechaoslord
30 August 2006, 09:40 AM
I have been intrgued by everyones ideas, and have decided to add my thoughts.

I see stormtroopers (and probably many tie pilots and some navel personel) as being a mixture of clones, the children of clones and conscripts making up numbers. There are also probably clones of conscripts and of any children of clones who impress the bosses.

The officers are probably recruited from non-clone backgrounds, giving more flexability with some exeptional clones mixed in (these are also probably the souce of the imperial guard whom i always suspected of force sesitivity at some lower level)

the imerial army/navy (as seperate from the stormtrooper legions) are probably mainly recuits/conscripts.

All IMHO

Master Dao Rin
30 August 2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by kaeroth
Hmmm...MDR (may I call you MDR?), thems're some interesting theories. I'm not sure I agree with them but I like the way they feel. But I have a problem, I think, with the last one. If the Clonies killed *all* the superior officers, then where'd the the naval and army commanders we see in the OT movies come from?

You can call me anything you want, as long as I know you're talking to me. :D

At any rate, you slightly misunderstood me. I didn't mean to say that when Sidious enacted Order 66 to take out the Jedi, the clones started shooting all their officers. No, at that first time, since the Jedi were the commanding officers, it was just Jedi that were eliminated.

What I mean is that this genetic imprinting is a fail-safe trigger for Sidious to enact whenever he pleases if a (commanding) officer starts to get delusions of grandeur. Thus, if Tarkin decided he wanted the Death Star for himself once it was put out there on the line, the Emperor would make a quick holo-transmission to his chief Stormtrooper commander, say "Execute Order 66", and blam! Tarkin would be targetted by every stormtrooper on board the Death Star.

This, too, also applies within the stormtrooper ranks themselves (although, IMO, this would NEVER happen; but I have to be mention this to cover craptastic over-zealous EU contingencies (Tramp, that means don't bother chiming in)).

Thus, for instance, if a clone ever decided to go rogue, Sidious simply declares "Execute Order 13", and blam! every stormtrooper starts to target one another in the squad and the last trooper then takes his own life.

Simple, yet elegant. In one word: Sith. :D

Jaggard
30 August 2006, 06:31 PM
1) In original scripts to the Original trilogy Luke complaines about not being able to leave the farm for the imperial academy to become a trooper (he really wanted off the dirt ball)

2)Lando was supposed to be the son of a clone, or a clone left over, before they changed their minds.

3) Han Solo was supposed to have left the Imperial flight academy.

4) Biggs left Tatooine and enlisted before defecting.

5) Why pay for every new soldier when all you have to do is make I want you posters and have a disabled soldier sit there and sign up kids that might otherwise become disaffected and rebel.

6) Palpy has a bit of xenophobia later on and I doubt he'd risk the entire military to an outside alien source.


It seems to me that cloning would be less nessecary as time went on. Until later when more and more people began to rebel. Less recruits and more need may have forced a bit of reversion. But by then his useable stock and possably his suppliers might be a little dodgey.

As for 66 it seems to me that if they recieved most of their knowledge via learning tapes that in those tape would be a series of orders like that. If you beat it into their heads enough it's just reflex.
"Drop and give me twenty!" isn't usually followed by " twenty what?"

The specifics of 66 may be as simple as Your leader has been compromised and no longer can be trusted with the well being of the unit and the empires directives. Eliminate them and promote the second in comand to leadership, new orders will be given once this is done.

It's the reset button.

wolverine
30 August 2006, 10:12 PM
I agree on those interpretations of Order 66.

Jedi_Shadow
30 August 2006, 10:36 PM
Indeed, those are much more in line with how the Order was "implanted."

Master Dao Rin
31 August 2006, 04:08 PM
Well, I imagine that the same technique to make the clone troopers more "docile" during genetic creation where the same structures used for Order 66. Lucas used precious screen time to specifically point out this fact in dialogue. That to me points this idea in that direction.

Think of it as baby chicks instinctually running for cover from hawks, for example. Clones were programmed with a failsafe device to prevent anyone from gaining control over Sidious' army (which conveniently Sidious exploited to actually gain control of the army).

It doesn't make sense to me that a military force bred to be completed compliant to their command structure is suddenly able to compromise it so with a simple order, especially from an "unrecognized" source outside this self same structure.

In the end, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Jedi actually knew about Order 66 (the failsafe trigger, not the actual Order)...

Crymoon
31 August 2006, 06:04 PM
And one other thing - clones cost money and take time to be generated - the clones for the cloen wars weren't created over night. And as Empire is suffering some losses they had to fill out the holes. The Empire is not only loosing some troops they need more and more as the unrest grows or the paranoia of possible unrests - as in every militaristic nation you always need more soldiers.

Second, and sorry for my lack of knowledge, is Kamino stil ok? I mean as the main (or at the beginning only known) source of the clones how can it be.. If not CIS then Rebels were quite sneaky and still they haven't destroyed it?

wolverine
31 August 2006, 10:35 PM
In the end, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Jedi actually knew about Order 66 (the failsafe trigger, not the actual Order).

Where are you getting that suspicion from??.

Rogue Trader
31 August 2006, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
In the end, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Jedi actually knew about Order 66 (the failsafe trigger, not the actual Order)...
Hmmm... I'm intrigued by this.

I'd imagine that the actual details of Order 66 weren't something Palpatine would want the Jedi Order to be completely aware of. This would, for the most part, also include the notion of it as a "protective failsafe" should the genetic techniques responsible for the creation of the Clones, somehow lead to them pursuing rebellion.

The Jedi Order would likely want to learn more about this failsafe, since both the Republic and the Jedi Order had, by that point, become heavily reliant on the Clone Army as a defensive/offensive force. If the potential for them to rebel existed, however slight... the Jedi and the Republic would want to know more about the processes involved in their creation, especially given how dependent upon the Clone Army, the Republic had become. And if that happened, it could've potentially led to the discovery of what Order 66 was actually about. The less the Jedi knew about the Clones and their actual creation (aside from what Palpatine had ensured they *could* and were *allowed* to know), the better. The desparate and immediate need for the Clones kept the Jedi largely in the dark... since they didn't have the time to properly focus on learning more about the Clone Army and where it come from... beyond the few tidbits they'd been able to string together up to that point.

The fact that Obi-Wan was initially shocked by his Clone Troopers turning on him at Utapau could suggest this. As well, we see the same type of reaction from Bail Organa, in reply to Obi-Wan's communique after he escapes from Utapau, regarding the rebellion of Clone Troopers at other locations across the Republic.

It's entirely possible that, if the Order knew about the failsafe... then the Senate would have also been aware of it since the Jedi Order would likely not keep such facts a secret from the Senate.

Jedi_Shadow
31 August 2006, 11:31 PM
Clones are not baby chicks. They are efficient military tools trained to obey orders given them by superior officers. In some cases, they were trained to be more loyal to Palpatine than to the Republic, and proved that very fact by executing Order 66 immediately and largely without question. Soldiers are often asked to obey orders without understanding why the order was made.

And where does it say that Order 66 was programmed? I still don't see it. Yes, it's very clear in Episode II that the rank-and-file Clone Troopers bred to be more docile than the original host, but I still think it's a big jump to say that because of that, Order 66 was instinctively hardwired into them. Also, there's plenty of evidence out there indicating that the non-rank-and-file Clone (Commanders, ARCs, etc) were not docile. It's like saying a CIA agent who has a genetic predisposition for a photographic memory-- and remembers a secret code-- was therefore genetically programmed to know the code.

If your commander in chief-- someone to whom you hold unswerving fealty-- contacts you on a secret and secure channel and says "Execute Order 66," it essentially means, "The Jedi have proven to be the traitors I feared they would be! Their treasonous bid for power spreads though their entire regime! Eliminate them before they eliminate you!" You'd better obey that order!

No, Clone Troopers are not frightened baby chicks. They are the hawks, and will swoop on their prey with determination and skill.

Crymoon
1 September 2006, 02:14 AM
[Posted by Friday Sith]

Clones are no chicken as Jedi_Shadow pointed out. {nice close to dark side name there, hahahaha} But they are the perfect tools for any of my abilities to lead them (even the inferior Palpatine). It's all in the training - you are force feeding them lots of information about tactics, fighting, orders, they are learning very fast not only because they ar bred so, but also because they are proper tools in use. And the earlier in the development they are seeded with the right mind set the better.
Palpy knew he wil have to kill Jedi sooner or later so he planted the right seeds in clones (though he failed in some percent which makes him a big wuss) I would do it much better!!! I wouldn't be killed by a crippled half droid who was alive only to my powers. And soon I will rule the galaxy...

[Crymoon] Oh no, he's completely gone... I hope I'll have him under control when the day ends. have to fight... errrghhh....

Kalechaoslord
1 September 2006, 08:55 AM
I agree that the order66 was either ''implanted' directly/hypnoticly/whatever or learnt by route, as 'flash learning' could mean either direct learning or a system for fast uptake.

I expect the jedi knew of pre-set orders, to help control the troops, but probably only new those that they were to use. The order 66 may have been 'jedi compromised-execute and continue'

Others probably include:
'clone leader compromised'
'laydown arms and surrender'
'dont surrender'
'leave area and return to home base for new orders' and so on
and even possibly 'situation hopless-suicide'

to provide safe guards against the troops being missused, by jedi gone bad, commanders geting delusions of grandure, false messages and other tricks of war.

The clones within the stormtroopers may still have them, or palpitine may have decided to leave them out, as if people got hold of them the entire stormtrooper army would be comprimised.

Master Dao Rin
1 September 2006, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Crymoon
And one other thing - clones cost money and take time to be generated - the clones for the cloen wars weren't created over night. And as Empire is suffering some losses they had to fill out the holes.

Second, and sorry for my lack of knowledge, is Kamino stil ok?

IMO, Kamino is still okay. I would be in the camp that says anyone stupid enough to attack the training ground where hundreds of thousands of soldiers are learning the art of war - deserves to lose.

As for the "clones are too expensive" argument, I remember the script crawl of ANH: the rebels scored their first major victory against the Empire.

That to me says that the Rebellion was nothing more than a minor nuisance until the plans for the Death Star were stolen. Thus, the Empire had no real use for a standing army except as a police force until 20 years after the birth of the Empire.

Maybe the degradation of the clone trooper's quality can be attributed to 20 years of uselessness?

Yea, I could buy that.

Master Dao Rin
1 September 2006, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Where are you getting that suspicion from??.

Just my feverish brain. :D It spends entirely too much time thinking about Star Wars useless tidbits. Plus my university degrees help.

I, for one, think that, after Geonosis, the Jedi were interested and very thorough in finding out why they suddenly had an army created that just happened to work out so brilliantly.

So Sidious gave them exactly what they wanted to find out: The Truth.

Except, from a certain point of view. This is purely conjecture, but I'm betting that the Jedi were initially extremely reluctant to continue to use the clone troopers after Geonosis, remembering way back to the beginning of the Republic and how they got into power. One of the reasons why they abandoned their armour and such kinda deal.

But then Palpatine "revealed" the entire program to them, and "oh!" just to be sure Sifo-dyas conveniently made a kill switch in these handy soldiers so that, when the war was won, the Jedi could simply "hit" the button and "power down" the deputy automatons. What a convenience too, in that it would help to prevent unnecessary fears in the conquered systems about depotism on the part of the Republic. The Jedi (and the Republic) could then conveniently wash their hands of the whole mess and get to the business of rebuilding the shattered Republic when they no longer needed an army again. In other words, the Republic was duped into creating their own droid army - and a superior one at that.

This would:

1) Conveniently help allay the fence sitters about the Creation of the Military Act that ignited the Clone Wars.

2) Reduce fears in the Republic itself about growing military power in a supposedly pacifist governing body.

3) Instill confidence and allay righteousness within the ranks of the current police force (the Jedi) that, essentially, their jobs wouldn't be "out-sourced". This might also explain why the Jedi didn't investigate the source of the clones further.

4) Explain why soldiers, who've come to rely on their Jedi commanders as brother's in arms, shed blood with them, and to be obeyed without question, to sudden turn on them and view them as utter enemies to be immediately eliminated.

5) Explains the stormtrooper's unique quality of utter loyalty; they are programmed genetically to be loyal. And,

6) It sounds simple and elegant - exactly the way Sidious operates.

But, again, this idea hinges on the fact that it was Sidious, and not Palpatine, that gave the infamous Order.

If it was not Palpatine, but indeed Sidious, then there is no way that Order 66 was merely a part of regular protocol and procedure.

Master Dao Rin
1 September 2006, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
And where does it say that Order 66 was programmed? I still don't see it. Yes, it's very clear in Episode II that the rank-and-file Clone Troopers bred to be more docile than the original host, but I still think it's a big jump to say that because of that, Order 66 was instinctively hardwired into them. Also, there's plenty of evidence out there indicating that the non-rank-and-file Clone (Commanders, ARCs, etc) were not docile.

This is Star Wars technology we're talking about here. I would have no problem believing Gamorreans could fly at one time except that they genetically modified themselves to lose their wings and become more corpulent because that was the fashion of the day!

The only variable is the backstory that we invariably create from the precious tidbits of screen time that are presented to us: is it believable? Considering that ARCs and such are a creation of the EU - to satisfy the testosterone giddiness of we Star Wars geeks - I would first draw my conclusions from the movie evidence before I started to think about introducing the EU back-stuff.

Why is it so impossible to think that Kaminoans can hardwire specific genetic pre-dispositions in their subjects? For instance, program "instinctual behaviours" in a creation? We're talking about advanced genetics here after all ...

In the end, though, YMMV still holds true ... :)

Master Dao Rin
1 September 2006, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Kalechaoslord
I agree that the order66 was either ''implanted' directly/hypnoticly/whatever or learnt by route, as 'flash learning' could mean either direct learning or a system for fast uptake.

I expect the jedi knew of pre-set orders, to help control the troops, but probably only new those that they were to use. The order 66 may have been 'jedi compromised-execute and continue'

Yep. Although I, for one, think that the Jedi knew the entire process and was not left anything out ... including all the Orders.

Sidious, on the other hand, twisted this one particular Order - 66 - to his advantage.

So, in this instance, when the troopers saw the image of Sidious issuing this order, their sublimnal genetic programming kicked in and the Order was turned into "Eliminate all Jedi".

Thereafter, a new set of "mirrored" Orders took over within the troopers brain - nothing too elaborate, but just that "Sith" replaced everthing that related to the Jedi in their old Orders. The Sith are, after all, nothing more than Jedi that "know the truth" about the Force.

Jedi_Shadow
1 September 2006, 11:28 AM
It's not impossible to imagine. My point is that it has already been explained to not be the case.

I suppose it should be made clear that I feel that movie and EU material go hand in hand, at least as far as how I piece the Star Wars Galaxy together. In absence of specific movie contradiction, I treat EU (for the most part) as canon.

I've found plenty of evidence in EU that I feel disproves your theory. If this is really a matter of you dismissing EU in favor of your own theories, then power to you, and I have nothng further to say.

Master Dao Rin
1 September 2006, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
I've found plenty of evidence in EU that I feel disproves your theory. If this is really a matter of you dismissing EU in favor of your own theories, then power to you, and I have nothng further to say.

Hey, I'm not here to argue with anybody. I'm just posting my own theories.

Please don't let that stop you from enjoying this thread's topic!

Jedi_Shadow
1 September 2006, 11:40 AM
I enjoy this immensely. :) I just wanted to make sure you understood where I was coming from.

Here's another question:

Say, twenty years or so into the New Order, you have a decent blend of stormtroopers from both clone and natural-born sources. Now, assuming that your clone troops have been bred with myriad failsafes and genetic code-words to ensure unswerving obedience, how do you get that same instinctive devotion out of conscripts? Brain-washing? If so, why not just brainwash all of them?

Also, would you continue developing clones at double-speed? I would venture to say no, because if it were so, a sizable percentage of your population would die off prematurely, and require replacement.

Kalechaoslord
2 September 2006, 05:51 AM
I imagine that they stopped the double speed growth thing at the end of the clone wars, as Master Dao Rin said, thay had no need for such a massive standing army, it was mainly used for 'peace keeping' untill the rebels started blowing up suoerweapons.

They probably did brainwash the non-clones in one way or another in the training, it may be the way they get the clones to act corectly anyway.

Master Dao Rin, 20yrs of low level action probably made them out of practice, but i doubt that it would be enough, there has been another sugestion though. in this thread http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=220613
The Admiral sugest that the stormtroopers are assult specialists, as their title sugests and that they simply are not trained well for patrol or inspections (Hoth as opposed to Endor/Death Star). As to why they kept them like this, the fear of them is based on their agressiveness, and keeping that may be concidered more iportant. Many militarys tend to rest change in any way and troop training changes in particular.

Master Dao Rin
5 September 2006, 11:02 AM
True.

Although, perhaps the explanation of the degrading quality of stormtroopers is a simple one, common to any military regime. They keep trying to improve the model, trying to out-do the last generation of clones, making them bigger, stronger, faster, etc., that this genetic over-tampering eventually leads to anti-facile DNA (in other words, the clones become inbred ... or crossbred maybe ... ) leading to degradation of said genetic specimens.

Just another thought ...

Master Dao Rin
5 September 2006, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
ISay, twenty years or so into the New Order, you have a decent blend of stormtroopers from both clone and natural-born sources. Now, assuming that your clone troops have been bred with myriad failsafes and genetic code-words to ensure unswerving obedience, how do you get that same instinctive devotion out of conscripts? Brain-washing? If so, why not just brainwash all of them?

Well, if you support my theory (the one that says that the stormtroopers are strictly clones and not conscripts), then there isn't need to consider the above since this clone process will remain unchanged since its inception. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Obviously, if you think that conscripts are a given, then obviously the "brain-washing" will only be as good as the "brain-washer" and thus there would be varying levels of loyalty to the Emperor. Thus, it could be possible to bribe stormtroopers out on Planet X, for example, because their indoctrination was different from Planet Y.

(This is one reason why I don't support the conscript idea of the EU).

FULONGAMER
5 September 2006, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
Say, twenty years or so into the New Order, you have a decent blend of stormtroopers from both clone and natural-born sources. Now, assuming that your clone troops have been bred with myriad failsafes and genetic code-words to ensure unswerving obedience, how do you get that same instinctive devotion out of conscripts? Brain-washing? If so, why not just brainwash all of them?

Also, would you continue developing clones at double-speed? I would venture to say no, because if it were so, a sizable percentage of your population would die off prematurely, and require replacement.

You get the unswerving loyalty from the fear factor. Remember that the STs train in utterly live-fire exercises. Remember also that once you become a Stormtrooper, you are a number, not a name (a step back from the "personalization" the republic clone army was swerving towards) and everyone is a faceless, undifferentiated killing machine. Import, for a moment, one of the training scenarios from the beginning of Starship Troopers, demonstrating the unswerving loyalty and ruthless efficiency of the upperclassmen or Cadre STs. If you are in an environment where at the drop of a hat, someone will potentially turn on you and kill you, without repercussion, and probably with reward for even the slightest disloyalty, and the encouragement in the ranks for one to do the same, without question. It becomes a self fulfilling structure. Some of the "incorruptability" of stormtroopers comes from the fact they are rarely if ever encountered alone, and are essentially under constant threat of execution from their faceless peers. Compliance becomes the survival instinct and the hardwired response.

With a sufficiently diverse cone population to intermix with the conscript and volunteer population, you have ample room to pad the ranks and still not have to explain mysterious twins , triplets, or such in the ranks. Diversity is maintained for the limited expisure they will have out of uniform, and in uniform, they are all the same anyway.

As far as the cloning speeds, without a pressing need for disposeable masses, the rate could be downgraded easily to keep recycling and adding to the best genetic materials, while maintining a flow of "ringers" to disperse through the ranks. There is also no valid explanation that the artificially induced premature over-aging of the clones could not be a seperate effect from simply getting them to adulthood in an accellerated manner. EU sources have a full range of clone growth rates with a wide assortment of side affects depending on their education process and decanting procedures. Several applications were researched and utilized.

wolverine
5 September 2006, 02:04 PM
Good point, and i can just envision a Starship trooper like drill sergeant, calling for a medic after injuring a ST...

Master Dao Rin
6 September 2006, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by FULONGAMER
You get the unswerving loyalty from the fear factor.

I don't get that from the movies or Karen Traviss' books.

They seem the complete opposite of that, in fact. We even see (some?) clones have names too.

I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to the "fear factor" theory whole-heartedly, though certain parts of it have merit.

Rogue Trader
6 September 2006, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin
I don't get that from the movies or Karen Traviss' books.

They seem the complete opposite of that, in fact. We even see (some?) clones have names too.
Indeed.

Labyrinth of Evil notes that some Jedi Knights and Generals were responsible for a number of second- and third-generation Clone troopers being given names rather than designation numbers -- to reflect the Clone Troopers unfaltering dedication to the Republic.

FULONGAMER
8 September 2006, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Rogue Trader

Indeed.

Labyrinth of Evil notes that some Jedi Knights and Generals were responsible for a number of second- and third-generation Clone troopers being given names rather than designation numbers -- to reflect the Clone Troopers unfaltering dedication to the Republic.

You are missing my point. Yes, during the Clone Wars they STARTED giving Clones names. Very cosmopolitan and really driven by the Jedi themselves to "humanize" the Clone Trooper Legions.

The Empire OTOH wants to REVERSE that impulse. What IT has to deal with are a combination of people. Firstly, there are the Conscripts and Volunteers, who HAD names from their lives before service and are indoctrinated with numbers to DEHUMANIZE them, additionally, they have the NEW batches of clones, wo ARE numbered rather than named, and have no need of a name other than to conceal their clone nature within the ranks of the Stormtrooper Legions.

The Republic had started looking forward to de-militarizing the CloneTrooper legions and introducing them to their repressed humanity. The Empire seeks to generate the most fearsome warrior caste they can, and needed to militarize the legion and crush the impulses of humanity to make them capable of the acts attriubuted to the Stormtroopers at large.

Master Dao Rin
8 September 2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by FULONGAMER


You are missing my point.

This assumes that there are conscripts in the later stormtrooper divisions.

If there are conscripts, then I postulated it would be impossible to create the effect you are proposing. Well, unless these conscripts are taken as babies at birth.

Hmmm. Like the Jedi did. Interesting.

Jedi_Shadow
8 September 2006, 10:36 AM
Thought it's not the only factor, fear is a strong factor in the troops' compliance, I think. In addition to exclusively live fire exercises and replacing given birth names with a number and designation, there is harsh punishment. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, a group of Clone Troopers choose not to follow Order 66. As a result, Darth Vader himself arrives to execute them swiftly and publicly, as a message to all others. If that isn't fear, I dont know what is.

Also, I think it's a safe assumption that FULONGAMER is stating that conscripts do exist, at least in the Star Wars universe that he sees. And I don't really see why the idea of taking conscripts and volunteers from an older age and integrating them into the ranks is "impossible."

FULONGAMER
9 September 2006, 01:23 AM
And don't forget there are numerous examples throughout all forms of the EU to support Non-clone membership in the Stormtrooper legions.

There are references to the nature of the troops and the differences between them and the "flash grown" clones throughout the Thrawn trilogy...

There are the references to Han Solo's Imperial service in the Non-Brian Daley Solo trilogy...

There is the Alderranian Ex-Pat Stormtrooper from the Marvel series who first tries to kill, then saves Leia...

There are the Crimson Empire references to the ST and Imperial Guard training...

There are the refugee kids that split, one to the Empire and one to the Rebellion (Flint and Barney) after a marvel comics adventure on their homeworld...

If you remember that far back, there are also all the Empire recruiting propoganda documents in a number of the old D6 game books...

There are also the novels referencing the Carida training facilities before Kyp Duroon killed it...

I'm sure there are many more references, but I'm out here in the desert again and away from my complete library.

It doesn't matter what part of the EU you might "choose" to exclude from your personal canon, there is another that still supports the premise. Only if you are in a "Movies Only" canon crowd can you maintain that there are NOT mundanes of one stripe or another in the ranks (and that is if you exclude Luke's attempts to apply to the Imperial Academy, and Bigg's backstory of Joining to get trainied before deserting to the rebellion)

FULONGAMER
9 September 2006, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin

If there are conscripts, then I postulated it would be impossible to create the effect you are proposing. Well, unless these conscripts are taken as babies at birth.


Oh yeah?

Take a look at the Armies of North Korea, Imperial China, Communist China, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, The NVA, Viet Cong, Imperial Japan, the Japanese Shogunate, AlQuaeda, Hamas, The Taliban, Hesbollah, and the Roman Legions just to name a few. Indoctrination to the military is a fundamental part of ANY trained force, even contemporary forces of diplomatic nations, but Conquering nations, and nations that rule by fear have a well documented take on the process that goes to the extremes that the ST legion undoubtedly operates under.

A great deal can be done in the span of a single generation if one is willing to do away with the limits of civilized society and commit fully to engineering an indoctrination program for one's culture and military.

The results are powerful and fearsome indeed.

Aldaron
21 September 2006, 06:57 AM
I'm not really wanting to comment on the whole clonetrooper / stormtrooper thing, but one point that's been mentioned several times has me way curious.

People are saying that Temuera Morrison's voice has been dubbed over the voices of the stormtroopers from the original tirlogy.

Ummm...that's simply not true. TM's voice has gone over the top of Boba Fett, but the stormies retain their different voices, all of them with American, not Kiwi, accents. I just watched Episode IV again (DVD Special Edition release) this afternoon to make sure I wasn't mistaken.

Kalechaoslord
21 September 2006, 07:31 AM
despite FULONGAMER's agressive style in his last post he does have a point. When you allow others to take all moral decisions from you, it can lead to extream results. And as clones have no particular moral guide lines (or none mentioned explicitly) they would fit this well, as it would for anyone who latter joined them. Non clones may keep a wider out look, hence some changing sides (kyle katarn, the aldrainian mentioned above)

Also note that non clones are trained for some roles, as officers(kyle), pilots(biggs etall), imperial guard (for forcesesitive sa in crimson empire).
All of which require some thing other than obediance and agression to be done well.

Most clones would have a name, either given or as a nickname, atleast for amoungst them selves. In ANH, TK421is probably a unique part of the troopers code (TK421......... of company X, battalion Y, legion Z) and was probably the reference used for guard rosters and official comunications. Who knows what he wanted to be called? or what his frends called him? remeber name rank and number are standard things to learn off by heart, people who did national service here in the UK after the war only did it for a short time yet all (within reason) canremember their 8digit number.

I think fear of the stormies was part of dicipline in other parts of the forces and for civillians, esprit de corps was more likley internally. I can imagine a stomtrooper officer undercover as a political officer in another unit.

Master Dao Rin, atlast another who finds the jedi indoctrination of children to be related to this ! When I heard of it i felt it was more than a bit dodgy, and parallels with other places came to mind... But it seems to have been a thing from the ruusan reforms and thus possibly not the true jedi way.

ON other subjects thank god they didnot change the troopers voices, they results were bad enough for Boba. I hate that change, he was better before.

Jedi_Shadow
21 September 2006, 08:17 AM
Ummm...that's simply not true.

Thank you! I've been saying that since day one! I just bought the September 12th release, and sure enough, no Kiwi voices.


...they results were bad enough for Boba. I hate that change, he was better before.

Now, I thought it was a logical change, given Boba's origins. However, I agree something was certainly lost in the translation. The maori accent is appropriate, but every one of his lines has lost a little of that edge that made Boba Fett so scary.

Part of it could also be that many of us remember what it was like before, and in fact grew up hearing that original voice. To hear that new voice could make us ask, "And just who do you think you are?"

Kalechaoslord
22 September 2006, 07:22 AM
Jedi_Shadow, i dont mind the accent but he seems.... less menacing when redubbed (have both versions). Its how the lines are said as much as whats said.

and theres this thing in the back of my head saying why does he sound identicle to his 'father', when I dont?.(i know-clone but it still doesnt work for me)


And back on subject....

Master Dao Rin if they did try to adjust the clones they could cause the degredation of abilities(im a biochemist so know a little about cloning) and see the film acloneapart on utube, but i dont see stormtroopers as worse fighters. The original 3 films were more focused on the main charicters, and the hero effect stops them being shot exept when its dramatic(it would be boring if luke was acidentaly shot by a stormy escaping mos eisley). you see tham blat mainly non charicters in the latter 3 films or high dama moments. so its more of a film artifact than real IMHO.
But I wont argue more, it doesnt matter really, so long as we are both comfortable with our interpritations.

Jedi_Shadow
22 September 2006, 10:19 AM
i dont mind the accent but he seems.... less menacing when redubbed (have both versions). Its how the lines are said as much as whats said.

Exactly my point.

Fingon
22 September 2006, 10:50 AM
I think the real thing that decides this is the fact that in the origional trilogy, not all stormtroopers are the same height. The one that bumped his head was a good deal taller than the others he was walking with. That and if I remember correctly, Luke was going to enlist in the Imperial Navy on Tattoine at one point, but he didn't make the height requirement, so it's probably a good bet that a significant portion of the stormtroopers are recruits at this point. Exactly how many, I don't know, but I would think that clones would scarce enough that they would only be used for special ops or as shock troops (hey, they're expendable).

Rogue Trader
22 September 2006, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
I think the real thing that decides this is the fact that in the origional trilogy, not all stormtroopers are the same height.
Though, I recall it being said that the Stormtroopers of the Star Wars films were clones and that they were always intended so. It was only through examples in the EU, some of which FULONGAMER noted above, which portrayed some Stormtroopers as clones (because certain writers made mistakes and showed non-cloned Stormtroopers) that we now have the fact that non-cloned Stormtroopers exist in the Imperial Ranks.

Rogue Trader
22 September 2006, 05:10 PM
As for the Clone Troopers to Stormtroopers changeover... as I've sometimes interpreted it, essentially, the Stormtroopers as a fighting force evolved from the Clone Troopers of the Grand Army of the Republic (as was detailed in Epis. II and III) to serve the Galactic Empire, similar in method and process to what we see in Battlefront II following the evolution of the 501st. Eventually, the Empire allowed baseline humans to be conscripted into the Stormtrooper units, for the purposes of building a larger military force much more quickly than would traditionally be allowed through just relying on cloning techniques only. This saw non-cloned humans, as Stormtroopers, also fight alongside the more traditional cloned Trooper ranks. Their armor, weapons, and equipment -- reflecting new advances in Imperial technology, further evolved, newer battlefield tactics institutionalised, and slight changes were made to rankings and the Imperial Order of Battle for the Stormtrooper legions.

Jedi_Shadow
22 September 2006, 09:55 PM
I think the real thing that decides this is the fact that in the origional trilogy, not all stormtroopers are the same height.

Not necessarily. The different height could happen because they were cloned from different sources.

Rogue Trader
23 September 2006, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Jedi_Shadow
Not necessarily. The different height could happen because they were cloned from different sources.
Another theory...

Genetic alterations made during the cloning process, directed toward changes to the anatomical structure of selected embryos, may have been necessary for creating clones that would be trained to fill specialised roles in the Stormtrooper ranks.

Stormtrooper clones, bred especially for the usage of specialised battle armor, may have required taller (and perhaps physically stronger) clones. As well, the development of shorter clones, geneticially modified to ensure the limited spaces of certain Imperial vehicles/ships of war could more easily accomodate them -- this allowed Imperial designers to spend less time concentrating on accomodations for the pilot and/or crew and more time on other vital aspects of the vehicle's/ship's design.

When such specially modified Stormtrooper clones were not assigned to these specialised roles, they were re-deployed into the regular Stormtrooper ranks... resulting in the differences of height (and perhaps body shape) between some individual Stormtrooper clones.

Kalechaoslord
23 September 2006, 06:26 AM
That sounds cool, and works with all the other theorys.

FULONGAMER
24 September 2006, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Kalechaoslord
That sounds cool, and works with all the other theorys.
:scouttpr:
The only problem is the lack of supporting STATS to reflect these supposed "enhancements" of the ST clone templates. Other than the really exotics like some of the Imperial Guards, the Force Sensitive ST group, and real wierdos like what led to the Dark Trooper project. Unless you want to substitute the old caveat of "Stormtrooper training negates the Armor Penalties" with "Stormtroopers are artificially augmented to overcome the Armor Penalties" (D6 or D20). Of course, then you will have some really dangerous Stormtroopers when encountered out of their armor. This also fails to account for the "normals" in the ranks, unless it is a combination of the two. Overtraining for the Norms, augmentations for the Clones.
:clonetpr:
I think the wide variety of the STs builds is more logically a reflection of the mix of the ranks, varieties of Clone templates, dickered and tinkered with to recycle desireable traits, alongside with normal recruits and conscripts, winnowed through harsh training and indoctrination systems that combine hypernationalisim and the tacit threat of internal "controls" against disloyalty. There are real patriots who buy the Imperial line of the New Order hook line and sinker, and only begin to question what they are doing when forced into direct confrontation with the darker sides of the Imperial Regime. However their questions are subdued by the fact that there ARE members of the ranks who (by design or happenstance) go ahead and act as ordered without hesitation or question. Peer Presure, Fear, Indoctrination, Information control, and the herd mentality combine to sweep individuals along with the flow of events. The impersonal nature of the ST legions allows for the mask to become the man, and even those who would question or hesitate to "let go" of their inhibitions and simply do as told, follow orders, and lose themselves in the faceless hordes of the legion. That is part of their design. Only the most hardy and self-realized individuals can rise above this subversive and insidious environment to choose to break from the mold and escape the monolitic organization, or at least refuse to comply with its darker demands, whatever the consequences may be.:stormtpr: