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Jaggard
1 October 2006, 08:00 PM
Some of the talk on force weilders and Midichlorians in partcular on these board late me got me thinking.

We know that the average person in SW is connected with the force (or for you midichlorian fans has them in some amount in their system) as it is connected to all living things. Then we have those that have a stronger connection (or high concentration in their blood). Jedi and force users...

but what about that dingo who has ecceptionally high force connections.

Are there mynocks and Bantha who can discharge force lightening, or move object?

The idea that some animals or even plants might have force powers is intresting. Maybe they manifest them as simply enhanced speed and agility. Maybe a spider sense and detecting motives of another. And just maybe as jedi like abilities.

Depending on the creatures, social groups may pass on teachings of force abilities to another force weilding member of that group.

In the wild would they be like the alpha predators and/or Matriach/patriarch of the pack/herd. If raise in captive or as a companion would they be like farmiliar, spirit beast, or demon beasts?

then there are the down sides. Force weilding mosquitos, fleas, dust mites, and other parsitic creatures.

PsychoInfiltrator
1 October 2006, 08:07 PM
Well, aside from naturally-Force wielding creatures, and the creations of Sith alchemy...I would figure that non-sapient beings would not be intelligent enough to do much more than virtually instinctual things with the Force, if they existed. And, AFAIK, they certainly could.

Rogue Trader
1 October 2006, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Jaggard
Are there mynocks and Bantha who can discharge force lightening, or move object?
Most animals don‘t think, rather, they tend to act almost purely on instinctual desires. I would also note that they aren't truly self-aware, and thus lack any ability for sentience. Mynocks and bantha aren't sentient. They are just animals. They are living creatures however, and thus have midi-chlorians, but they likely do not possess sufficient levels of self-awareness nor sentience, or understanding, to be able to "hear" and "feel" the midi-chlorians, and thus, the Force.

Kalechaoslord
2 October 2006, 03:36 PM
you mean they are not sapient(responds to rational thought), rather than not sentient(responds to senses)

Rogue Trader
2 October 2006, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Kalechaoslord
you mean they are not sapient(responds to rational thought), rather than not sentient(responds to senses)
Both are, largely, applicable.

Most animals do not possess a conscious sense of self, sentience -- and most animals have no mental capacity for rational judgment and/or discernment, sapience.

Snowtiger
3 October 2006, 03:28 AM
But there are some animals in the SW universe, that are Force-sensitive, such as the Vornskrs of Myrkr(they use the Force to hunt more effectively, and if tamed, can be used as watchdogs against Force-sensitives), or the Ysalamiri(you have to be Force-sensitive to block the Force, IMHO).

I think that it is possible for any animal to become Force-sensitive, but not on the level of a sapient Force user. Thus we may see sand panthers using speed or stealth, but I don't see animals flinging lightning bolts at desired targets, as they don't have the needed intelligence to use the power.

Kalechaoslord
3 October 2006, 05:45 AM
Rogue Trader- fair enough, i just like to see people use the right word to explain what they mean, its probably due to my background in science, where small changes in spelling/choice of word makes a huge difference.

I agree with Snowtiger, that all animals may be force sensitive, but can only use the force in an instictual way. for example, the speed/stealth above, enhancing their stats, and of course danger sensing. They would be alpha's/heard leaders, and live longer than most i would expect.

Jaggard
3 October 2006, 08:16 AM
alright so we can accept the use of force in some animals. But on an instinctual level.

Could we have one trained by a handler (force sensative) to do 'force tricks'?

Could a released force sensative pet with training then teach it to others like some of the socially transfered skills seen in animals?

And more importantly could there be a 'clan' of monks who study the methods of animals useing the force to learn techniques and delve the depths of what the force means when not altered and manipulated by reason of sapients?

If a duck were to force lightening or something similar that we see as darkside but it does so without evil intent, could we then contemplate the use of that ability as neither good nor bad?

Kalechaoslord
3 October 2006, 12:24 PM
I supose you could teach an animal more advanced force tricks, but I dont know if it could passs them on. That seems unlikely, but could lead to some cool encounters

As for studying animals to learn the true force - sounds good, life unfiltered using the force unfiltered. And a duck using force lightening i dont feel could be dark, as it has no evil intentions, and it would leave little temptation to doit again. But still

Electro-duck? 8o

Quack........Zzzzapp.........!

Wedge in Red2
3 October 2006, 01:49 PM
The "If you use Force Lightning without evil intent - is it still Dark Side?" discussion has been done to death - so lets not go back there. Even from an animal perspective - I think it's just looking at the same question from a different perspective.

If people want to go and re-read all those discussions, I'm sure you can find them using the search function, or maybe later when I have some more time I can pull out the links.

That said, the idea of force using animals is interesting. It could make for soem interesting encounters in a game.

Cheers,

Jon

Rogue Trader
3 October 2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Jaggard
Could we have one trained by a handler (force sensative) to do 'force tricks'?
I would imagine this would require very specific, and often quite time-consuming, training. At the very least, proper examples of such animals would be extremely rare.

It's difficult enough for most sentient and sapient living Force-Sensitives to be able to both hear and use the Force for desired effect without first enduring significant training and mental discipline.

Training animals to associate certain physical activities with instinctual drives powered by the Force would be exceedingly difficult, if not almost impossible to encourage completely. I'd imagine its more likely the trainer would try to create a situation whereupon the animal has to rely on its instincts, powered a little by the Force, to succeed. Repeating this, and other similar styled training regimes may help the animal to associate such actions with its instinctual "Force-assisted" activity. But it would never be a practice that would always be completely reliable, since animals are still prone to being undisciplined, even after being extensively trained.

Jaggard
3 October 2006, 07:40 PM
WIR2

the force lightening bit was just the first darkside to come to mind. I'm not rehashing old arguments. I'm trying to discuss what kind of knowledge could be gained from force weilders who lack the concept of good or evil.

The force is a natural thing and exists throughout the universe. Those who have made paths to follow have invented rules and preconceived ideas about such things. They've layered it with conotations of good and evil and thrown guilt or pride onto the pile.

What happens when a female wamp rat uses force choke to kill a predator after her you. Is it evil? It's not thought about deeply, it's just instinctual protection. If the act is darkside does that taint the animal to the point that it falls to the darkside or do Darkside points not accumulate long term in an animal (like a short term memory) ?

The questions it raises are not only intresting, I would think that in the entire universe that some force user seeking the truths of the force has attempted this approach and maybe even an order has been found around this natural approach of the force. Much like martial arts have animal forms and philosophy about the meaning of life found in the natural world.

Kalechaoslord
4 October 2006, 06:45 AM
WIR2, Jaggard, it is intersting to look at the force from a neutal perspective, but I agree it could be a long and repetative argument that has been done before. That said I still like Electroduck !

As for training them as both the trainer and the ainmial have the force, a certain amount of communication would be possible making it easyer, but you wouldnt be able to teach something you hadnt mastered your self.

Wedge in Red2
4 October 2006, 05:30 PM
A couple of thoughts.

I believe animals with access to the Force would fall to the Dark Side quite quickly. Animals lack the control of their emotions that humans (and other sentients) have. Anger and fear are much more common emotions.

Because of that, I believe manifestations of Force Lightning and the like would be common - more so than abilties like Affect Mind or Farseeing - as they tap into the raw emotions of hatred and anger.

My 2cr worth.

Jon

Master Dao Rin
4 October 2006, 07:22 PM
Well here is something I'll just throw out there:

I postulate that lower sentient life-forms don't harbour midi-chlorians in their cells; only intelligent life possess midi-chlorians.

Think about it. If the function of midi-chlorians is to help us hear and translate the siren song of the Force in exchange for the benefits of what this would bring, what use would they be in creatures that have no use or inkling of what that is? Midi-chlorians would hardly benefit from this relation so why would they inhabit such an enviroment?

Hmmm ... B)

I'd just chalk up all these silly ysalarmiri creatures and their ilk to more EU craptastic mistakes.

Rogue Trader
4 October 2006, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Rogue Trader
Training animals to associate certain physical activities with instinctual drives powered by the Force would be exceedingly difficult, if not almost impossible to encourage completely. I'd imagine its more likely the trainer would try to create a situation whereupon the animal has to rely on its instincts, powered a little by the Force, to succeed. Repeating this, and other similar styled training regimes may help the animal to associate such actions with its instinctual "Force-assisted" activity. But it would never be a practice that would always be completely reliable, since animals are still prone to being undisciplined, even after being extensively trained.
Thinking on this a little more...

It's possible that such training could become the basis for the development of a Force bond between the Force-Sensitive trainer and Force-Sensitive animal -- similar in function to the Force bond that exists between the Korunnai and the akk dogs of Haruun Kal. The Force bond would allow the Korunnai to "talk" to the akk dogs, using the "language of the Force" -- though the actual "talking" between trainer and beast may be nothing more than a series of mental suggestions from the trainer to the creature, using the Force link between the two as a bridge -- shaped in ways the instinctual mental state of the creature can understand. Thus, the Force bond between trainer and animal would then allow them both to work together for mutual benefit, or to allow the trainers to specifically utilise the animals to help assist in a particular function, as the Korunnai use the akk dogs on Haruun Kal to keep their people safe from more dangerous beasts and bandits, as well as helping to control the great grasser herds on the planet.

The Force-Sensitive creature may then slowly begin to develop an instinctual "mindset" that allows it to utilise basic Force powers and/or abilities when drawing on the Force bond relationship it has with its trainer.

Ris
5 October 2006, 12:21 PM
It is hard &/or expensive to get right now, (unless a local library has a copy), but the d20 supplement Power of the Jedi includes Force-Sensitive natural animals, including predators, a herdbeast species "seeded" on various colony worlds and a mischievous, thieving critter describes as "like Kowakian monkey-lizards, but much more appealing."

All the PotJ creatures utilize the Force only on the instinctual-behavior level. For example, the herd animal uses the Force in the dominance displays and fighting typical for males of such species, as well as to protect the herd. The "klepto" critters give off an aura of "I'm lovable, cute, utterly adorable & very, very sorry for stealing" to most sentients. (Mechanics-wise, several ranks in the Friendship Force-skill.)

Nowhere in any of the descriptions is it mentioned that any of these animals can be trained to use the Force beyond its natural ways. However several of the species can be trained like "regular" animals, as pets, guards, or performers.

Wedge in Red2
5 October 2006, 06:24 PM
Damn it Ris, I have that book and I still haven't read it :D. Good spot.

Jon