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Alis_Morningstar
23 July 2007, 03:50 PM
Ok, I was watching Ep II and III a couple of nights ago, and it just clicked with me. During one of the flight scenes, you see a clone pilot (I think it was the LAAT pilot in EP II) on one side of his head, you see the symbol that will be the Imperial symbol (no big, just obvious forshadowing right?) But on the other side of his helmet, you see the rebel symbol. So, do we have a renegade unit of clones who start the rebellion, or did the rebs just see the symbol somewhere and think it was cool. Personally, I can't wait to run a campaign about the rogue unit of clones who started the rebellion. HMMM... maybe Codry's unit?

boccelounge
23 July 2007, 05:33 PM
Well, the "symbol that will be the Imperial symbol" you reference is actually the symbol of the Galactic Republic, which is entirely appropriate for a Clonetrooper pilot serving the Galactic Republic.

But if he also has the Alliance "Redbird"... well, that's mighty interesting, and I'd call that foreshadowing (or at least a cool little nod or "easter egg"). The intent may be to suggest that that icon is existed prior to its adoption by the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

I'd really like to see it-- can you give an approximate scene and/or time reference?



(As an off-topic aside... I'm typing this sitting on my front porch on a cool Summer evening, listening to a baseball game... the occasional car going by, the random dog-walker passing, and the the normal background noise of crickets chirping and kids playing... and somewhere, among the chatter, the faint sounds of Star Wars movie music-- I think it's from Ep VI... one of my neighbors is apparently getting his/her "Saga" on... :D )

Banditrests
23 July 2007, 06:47 PM
Huh, I'll have to rewatch Ep. II and keep an eye out for that.

Renegade Clones? That would be a pretty cool campaign. Sounds more like Ion Team or the clone Anti-Troopers than Cody's unit, after all, Cody tried pretty hard to kill Obi Wan ("Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber?")

Ubiqtorate
26 July 2007, 12:27 PM
My understanding was that the "Redbird" was a symbol chosen by the Alliance from among the symbols used by the Republic, as a way of declaring themselves the legitimate successors to the Republic. I don't have any proof of that, nor any sources, but that's what I've heard.

zappo inc
26 July 2007, 01:25 PM
i believe that's referenced in the old Rebel Sourcebook, fyi:)

(though 'redbird' is new to me, as far as i can recall...)

GM14
26 July 2007, 04:06 PM
:? how exactly would clones break away from the empire? weren't they brainwashed?

Ubiqtorate
26 July 2007, 05:05 PM
Spent so much time trying to research the symbol that I forgot to address the renegade clones!

Here's the thing - yeah, there's brainwashing, yeah, there's training, but in the end, there's always free will. What if a clone, upon receiving Order 66, looked his general in they eye and realized, "Wait a minute... this is just wrong!"? Or if, even after executing the Jedi, a clone experienced haunting remorse? They're people, after all - that's what makes them superior to droids. Unfortunately, that means you have to deal with pesky human emotions, and no matter what sort of training or brainwashing you put somebody through, there's never any way to bend a person completely to your will.

Jedi_Shadow, in our last campaign, played a retired ARC Trooper with just such a story. While that campaign focused on just one individual and how he was able to cover up what he had done (or hadn't done), it'd be really interesting, too, to see what would happen if an entire unit decided to go renegade at some point. Perhaps they'd go off and join the Alliance. I'd like to hear more about it.

Rogue Trader
26 July 2007, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Here's the thing - yeah, there's brainwashing, yeah, there's training, but in the end, there's always free will. What if a clone, upon receiving Order 66, looked his general in they eye and realized, "Wait a minute... this is just wrong!"?
Which is very similar to the situation the Clone Troopers of Ion Team faced on Murkhana when receiving the details concering Order 66 in Dark Lord -- pgs. 24-25, 30-31 [of the hardcover].

CaamasiJedi49
26 July 2007, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Spent so much time trying to research the symbol that I forgot to address the renegade clones!

Here's the thing - yeah, there's brainwashing, yeah, there's training, but in the end, there's always free will. What if a clone, upon receiving Order 66, looked his general in they eye and realized, "Wait a minute... this is just wrong!"? Or if, even after executing the Jedi, a clone experienced haunting remorse? They're people, after all - that's what makes them superior to droids. Unfortunately, that means you have to deal with pesky human emotions, and no matter what sort of training or brainwashing you put somebody through, there's never any way to bend a person completely to your will.

Jedi_Shadow, in our last campaign, played a retired ARC Trooper with just such a story. While that campaign focused on just one individual and how he was able to cover up what he had done (or hadn't done), it'd be really interesting, too, to see what would happen if an entire unit decided to go renegade at some point. Perhaps they'd go off and join the Alliance. I'd like to hear more about it.

As the clone commando's of Iion Team did in Dark Lord book. Instead of following through order 66, they decided they wanted ot talk things through and figure out why Order 66 was being done. The general feeling I got from the book was that most of the clones accepted the order with little to no outward doubt. But the Clone Commando's, ARC Troopers or even ARC Commanders, they all have independence that the Kamino's tried to suppress.

And then you have the society factor. When people who live in a box all their life, with set beliefs, are set loose into the wider world, eventually they change to adapt to their new surroundings. It is entirely possible that some clones began to garner independence because a particular Jedi rewarded that. Thus they condition themselves to be independent minded.

Or, you could have the possibility of a clone showing remorse for Order 66. Just because they followed the Order does not mena that they do not regret it later. The guilt could build to the point where they become dis-illusioned with the empire and go rogue to fight against what they perceive as the true threat to the Republic.

But I ramble, but here are my thoughts about a rogue clone campaign.

Kal

johnnyputrid
27 July 2007, 07:22 PM
Clones weren't brainwashed, rather they were genetically modified to follow the orders of their superiors. Unlike their template Jango, they were engineered to be more docile, as Fett was rather prone to do what he pleased instead of following orders. But this did not erase free will from the clones.

The military culture revolves around discipline and following orders without question. Since the clones were modified, this tendency was reinforced, and their culture was entirely military in nature. However, orders can conflict with a person's moral views, even a highly-disciplined soldier. Given enough time and experience, even the lowliest clone trooper could develop his own moral code and value system. While the vast majority of clones would simply follow orders and do what they are told to do, there is nothing that would prevent a clone with sufficient experience to question that which he feels violates his values and morals.

The most likely candidates for clones going 'rogue' would be the Clone Commandos, who operate more or less indepently from the rest of the Grand Army. ARCs are already pretty much indepenent already, having received little modification to their behaviors. Regular troopers who worked closely with Commandos and ARCs might also fall into this category. Of course, we're probably talking less than 1% of the entire Republic army here. Most are content to follow orders and get on with the business at hand.

Banditrests
29 July 2007, 07:21 PM
Some interesting notes: The wookieepedia page on the Alliance Starbird http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alliance_Starbird which is apperently very old and a very interesting note on the page of Alpha-66 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha-66 about ARC troopers after the Clone Wars ended, and some of them apperently joining the rebels.

zappo inc
31 July 2007, 01:17 PM
thank you banditrests for the infolink on the starbird!:)

And i'm not so sure, getting back on topic, that anyone cloned from the jedi-killer Jango Fett would have much compassion for Jedi, or indeed anyone in a position of weakness...

blodgett
2 August 2007, 09:34 AM
In the book for ep III - it makes a point of saying that despite their origin - the clones were ultimately human. So renegade clones are no that far fetched.

zappo inc
2 August 2007, 03:56 PM
good point (and wicked quote! klaatu, barada, necktie, brother!)

Santa Claws
10 August 2007, 09:02 AM
...some diffrent ideas:

1.) A clone trooper is injured, after his reconvalescent,he lost his Order 66 affilation.

2.) Order 66 is a genetically implant, so that is if some has forget to build it in?
(The
3.) All clone a human or maybe near human, so some psychotic problems may come true...
(im Zeta45993458 and my dad is the clan-chief of all EWOKS)

...other ideas?

calamarisoldier
13 August 2007, 07:25 PM
In the game Battlefronts 2, on a mission you must destroy camino's factories after the workers made an army of renegade clones. Kinda makes you wonder about that pilot. And from what i've heard from some web sites, a book is being written on rebel operatives who crank up the ol' clone machine on kamino. Who would know how to operate these machines but a clone themself.

SmugglerJedi
19 August 2007, 06:57 AM
I dunno if a clone could run them. A Kaminoan, yes. A clone? Ehh, that's kinda far. I don't think the Kaminoans would give the clones that knowledge, for fear they would become human bunnies and rage out of control.

Though the idea of rogue clones is not too far-fetched. I'm still toying with a rogue clone campaign for Quadrant.

calamarisoldier
20 August 2007, 07:57 AM
Yes, but wouldn't the empire have exiled the kaminoins or enslaved them of wiped them out. And even if they couldn't operate a machine, they would probably know more than a rebel.

Ronin
20 August 2007, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by calamarisoldier
Yes, but wouldn't the empire have exiled the kaminoins or enslaved them of wiped them out. And even if they couldn't operate a machine, they would probably know more than a rebel.

Not necessarily. Most (nay all!) of the clones were trained to fight (be in on foot or in a vehicle of some kind). I'd say their medical knowledge extended as far as field medicine, not the operation of cloning technology. The Alliance, on the other hand, might well have access to scientists who didn't see eye to eye with the the New Order and would be more suited to getting a cloning lab up and running.

As has been said by others, I'd say commandoes are the ones most likely to have questioned or disobeyed Order 66 (as shown in Dark Lord) and perhaps ARCs too (though they're a weird bunch so who knows).

As for the appearance of the "rebel symbol" on a clone pilot's helmet in Ep2, I'd say it's probably just an easter egg, or of little significance. I seriously doubt it's supposed to represent a rogue element within the GAR. What have they do rebel against? The war only just started.

SmugglerJedi
20 August 2007, 12:57 PM
I think the ARCs would've just shot the Jedi because "They have no fashion sense." They were definitely weird, and the Null ARCs were even weirder.

zappo inc
22 August 2007, 09:53 AM
ARCs are weird? Weird how?

zappo inc
22 August 2007, 09:54 AM
Weird how?

Ubiqtorate
22 August 2007, 05:12 PM
ARC troopers, from what I understand, had a bit of a reputation even among the clones for being loners, not to mention being a little on the intense side. These were career warriors... and not just career! War and violence were all they knew. Even career soldiers in our world have their personal lives and their professional lives. They can go to work and do all of the things that career soldiers do, then go home to their wives and families (and I know I'm generalizing here, and I'm not even talking about long deployments). ARC troopers didn't have that. The only family they had were the other clones - also soldiers. That's enough to make anybody a little weird, and the ARC troopers were the most extreme of the extreme.

Ronin
22 August 2007, 06:10 PM
Exactly. I remember (I think it was in Hard Contact) it saying that the clones were made from sociopathic stock (Jango) and the ARCs were the least removed from the original.

SmugglerJedi
23 August 2007, 07:07 AM
Also, most clones were bred to obey the Republic, i.e. Palpatine. ARCs demonstrated a form of independence lacking among the clones, and were capable of doing things other clones would never even consider. I think ARCs would be the prime example of renegade clones, as they would easily find a reason to shoot Palpatine.

Plus, I think some of them were legally insane.

zappo inc
23 August 2007, 10:26 AM
aha, i think i see...so the ARC troops are closest to Jango in general temperment. Very good bounty hunters, very good mandalorians. Super soldiers, if you will. Interesting. Thanx:)

Alis_Morningstar
23 August 2007, 01:12 PM
It's a little more than that though. The ARC were the only clones (before the commandos) who where cloned with any independence. This was so much of a problem that they were shipped from one deployment to another in cryo-stasis. Geonosis and the Outer Rim has a section on the ARCs that is quite informitive.

zappo inc
24 August 2007, 08:51 AM
Interesting...is Geonosis and the Outer Rim a book?

SmugglerJedi
24 August 2007, 10:35 AM
Eeyop. (http://www.amazon.com/Geonosis-Outer-Worlds-Star-Roleplaying/dp/0786931337)

zappo inc
28 August 2007, 10:56 AM
thanx!!:)

Thomas
31 August 2007, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by zappo inc
thank you banditrests for the infolink on the starbird!:)

And i'm not so sure, getting back on topic, that anyone cloned from the jedi-killer Jango Fett would have much compassion for Jedi, or indeed anyone in a position of weakness...

Jango was for all intents and purposes a relatively good man in a dangerous profession. Keep in mind that he was raised by Jaster Mereel who saved his life after his parents were killed by the Death Watch. He could have left Jango to die on Concord Dawn but instead took the young farmer under his wing and trained him to be an effective mercenary. He also truly loved Boba as his own son even if his way of showing it wasn't the greatest. I wouldn't consider him a Jedi hunter either since he really only hunted one Jedi in his entire career, the other times the Jedi were coming after him. Anyway back on track, one of the main reasons why the Republic commandos were created was the ARCs were often too independent up to the point of disobeying orders, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of them decided to disobey Order 66 or desert. The clones in general were definitely capable of showing remorse though since it says in Star Wars Battlefront 2 that the members of the 501st were glad they were wearing helmets when they were complimented by Aylla Secura since they couldn't look her in the eyes.

calamarisoldier
31 August 2007, 07:46 AM
How many ARC commandos were there? Dozens? Hundreds? And did any of them stay in service to the empire as active commandos?:?