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cheshire
24 October 2007, 08:26 AM
Make of it what you will, it seems like a gaming mag started playing connect the dots with a new BioWare project, and the fact that LucasArts is interested in having a new MMORPG.

Full story:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=25996562#

Discuss.

zappo inc
24 October 2007, 10:10 AM
cool - but i'd rather it not be a mmorpg, and just stick with the style of the previous incarnations (if the rumour is true, of course).

cheshire
24 October 2007, 10:40 AM
That's the thing. It sort of feels like a new incarnation of the same rumor that's been circulating. But the connections don't seem unreasonable. The biggest problem is that there is no confirmation or denial on the part of the developers.

Starcloud
24 October 2007, 11:31 AM
Rumor. This is, as far as I can tell, the same rumor that was started on the Star Wars Galaxies boards shortly after the "New Game Experience" drove away two-thirds of the players of that MMORPG.

There have been "Sources close to Bioware" rumors like this before.

Untill I see a press release from LucasArts announcing a "KotOR" era MMORPG, I have to discount all such rumors.

cheshire
24 October 2007, 12:44 PM
Still, though... wouldn't it be cool?

boccelounge
24 October 2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by cheshire
Still, though... wouldn't it be cool?
Yeah... have you played WoW? If that's the model for the KotOR MMO (which I will now christen "WoK"), you'll have 20,000 Jedi characters with names like "DeathBunny4000" and "SuckIt SuckIt SuckIt" running around grinding XP on banthas and dancing the macarena. :( :mad:

It is (or, might be, in an unconfirmed 'net rumor kind of way) a dark day for the Galaxy...


Well, at least I've got Mass Effect to look forward to/eat up countless obsessive weeks of my winter...

Admiral Zaarin
24 October 2007, 01:45 PM
If they make KotOR 3, I'd like to see open ended ala Elder Scrolls, but I would not like to see an MMO. Hopefully, LucasArts learned their lesson with Galaxies, but we all know how well LA learns their lessons...

boccelounge
24 October 2007, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin
If they make KotOR 3, I'd like to see open ended ala Elder Scrolls, but I would not like to see an MMO. Hopefully, LucasArts learned their lesson with Galaxies, but we all know how well LA learns their lessons...
Yes-- they learned the lesson the that Galaxies was mostly disappointing, and WoW was massively successful. I share your hope for a broader, non-linear, Elder Scrolls-like KotOR III, but I don't think any major game company will be able to resist the urge to make as much money as the WoW-model... sucks though.

Admiral Zaarin
24 October 2007, 01:54 PM
LucasArts seems overly driven by the profit motive. Obviously a company exists to make money; any six-year-old could tell you that. But sometimes a company should do what the fans want instead of simply what will appeal to the largest, broadest audience and therefore make the most money. EA is guilty of the same thing with what they've done with their LotR games. It's the sad truth of game companies these days, I suppose.

boccelounge
24 October 2007, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin
sometimes a company should do what the fans want instead of simply what will appeal to the largest, broadest audience and therefore make the most money.
Well, not to turn this off-topic, but "why?" Why shouldn't a company make something that the greatest number of people like? And in doing so, turn a large profit for its shareholders?

That is, I don't think the idea of WoK (heh) sounds very appealing, but I imagine a huge number of people will. And those people are still "fans" of SW, even they don't agree with you and I on this point...

And let's also note that the presumed makers of WoK-- EA/Bioware-- are a far bigger entity than LucasArts, who would only be the publisher of the game.

I don't like the idea, but I don't fault the decision to make it-- millions of people love MMOs. Just not me. ;)

Ubiqtorate
24 October 2007, 03:21 PM
The trouble with an MMO is that you can't have the sort of cohesive, closed-end story that you have with the first two KotOR installments. Yes, there are quests, and one person going on the quest doesn't affect another person's ability to do the same thing, but in my opinion the individual story still suffers. If BioWare is back on the case, though, I might just check it out.

cheshire
24 October 2007, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by boccelounge

If that's the model for the KotOR MMO (which I will now christen "WoK"), you'll have 20,000 Jedi characters with names like "DeathBunny4000" and "SuckIt SuckIt SuckIt" running around grinding XP on banthas and dancing the macarena. :( :mad:



Ew... I see your very disturbing point.

boccelounge
24 October 2007, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
The trouble with an MMO is that you can't have the sort of cohesive, closed-end story that you have with the first two KotOR installments. Yes, there are quests, and one person going on the quest doesn't affect another person's ability to do the same thing, but in my opinion the individual story still suffers.
I agree entirely-- this nicely sums up the general trepidation I feel about the WoK idea in general...



Originally posted by cheshire
Ew... I see your very disturbing point.
Yes, but let's give this point credit:



Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
If BioWare is back on the case, though, I might just check it out.
And this is why I can't lose hope entirely. Assuming that EA is smart enough to not kill the core BioWare staff (and I think they are), this might maybe kinda let's-hope possibly be a cool game.

We hope,

Maybe.

:(

Ubiqtorate
24 October 2007, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by boccelounge

...20,000 Jedi characters...

Names aside, this is a point I hadn't even considered. In order for it to bear any resemblance to KotOR at all, just about everybody would have to be a Jedi. You'd literally have thousands of Jedi running around all over the place! This is especially problematic when you consider that almost the whole premise of KotOR II revolved around the Jedi having been nearly wiped out. That's a big jump, to go from one or a handful at the end of KotOR II to thousands upon thousands just a few years later. While I'd love to see another BioWare installation, I don't think MMO is the way to go.

kaeroth
24 October 2007, 08:07 PM
I don't play MMORPGs. I try to avoid video games (in the same way that an alcoholic avoids the hooch). So I'm an outsider in offering opinions. But! What if one were to create a MMORPG that had a finite lifespan? Like, you'd buy the initial game, and then pay a monthly fee to play through a game that lasts several months (or longer, depending on how often you play), and you've got a linear story to follow, and when you finish, you're done. You can go back and play as evil or a girl, but you'd have to pay.
See, I'm thinking of this from a profit standpoint. And a replayability, avoiding those stereotypes of what MMORPGs turn into. See, the developers can make a story that lasts for a long time (and somehow they'll figure out how to make that work while there are thousands of people runnign around at different points in the story) so the players are happy, but they have also made it an ongoing milk-cow because it keeps on giving. To them. In the wallet.
I don't know, is that a bad idea? Or does it have merit?

cheshire
25 October 2007, 04:57 AM
It's funny, because I suggested doing something like that with a MUD at one point. It would have a massive MUD-wide quest on one of the servers. It would have the unfortunate side-effect of encouraging PKing, but the quest would be finite. The clan or clans that completed the quest, and corpse looted the other quest items from all the other clans would win. After it ran its course, we could set the thing up again and run it again.

The motion died on the table for failure of a second.

What it would probably require is that the paying public wait until the next cycle began in order to get the full experience of the storyline. I'm not sure how many people are going to want to buy and install a video game and then have to wait even a few weeks to get the MMO experience. I don't know, I suppose they would find it preferable to login in the middle of a story cycle.

Fingon
25 October 2007, 08:25 AM
I dunno... I've never reallu liked MMORPG's... despite the fact that they take WAY too much time, it becomes very difficult to keep a cohesive and compelling story with so many random variables, AKA stupid people.


What it would probably require is that the paying public wait until the next cycle began in order to get the full experience of the storyline. I'm not sure how many people are going to want to buy and install a video game and then have to wait even a few weeks to get the MMO experience. I don't know, I suppose they would find it preferable to login in the middle of a story cycle.

Or you could run it how Diablo II was; you can start at any time, with a group of people and play through. You wouldn't have to wait, but you wouldn't be able to interact with the entire population online. Which might not be a bad thing.

But, personally, that doesn't sound very appealing to me. It gets rid of the only thing I like about MMROPG's: their open-ended nature. Unless you'd be able to keep your character, I don't think there'd really by much incentive to go back.

What you COULD do, however, is make things happen in the game its self... a planet gets destroyed, cities get built, a war goes on, and the actions of the players can sway some of those events (the tide of a battle, for example). It would be very difficult, but not impossible.

zappo inc
25 October 2007, 09:21 AM
sorry, but appealing to the lowest common denominator in order to make massive amounts of profit kinda, in a way, goes against EVERYTHING the star wars saga was thematically about. Y'know, the struggle for living beings to be compassionate, to throw off their reliance on 'mechanical'/inhuman structures, to abandon our corporeal attachments, all that kinda thing. Lucas Arts is doing the very thing the saga pointed to as 'bad'.

I know it's shocking that hypocrisy can exist in the modern world8o :rolleyes:

There is no justification for it (beyond $$ of course) and what a justification that is...

Fingon
25 October 2007, 09:28 AM
There is no justification for it (beyond $$ of course) and what a justification that is...

Well, that depends. If you want a game that will be "true" to Star Wars, not that would not be the best venue. However, this will narrow your target audience and attract less customers. However, the argument can also be made about "the greatest good for the greatest number," that by attracting more people will ultimately be able to satisfy more people and attract them to the Star Wars story. Besides, it's a hard swallow for any company to take the second best course of action; it goes against just about every principle of business I know of.

So, we may not like it, but it still may be the "better" decision. But that doesn't mean I will like it.

Admiral Zaarin
25 October 2007, 07:03 PM
Well, not to turn this off-topic, but "why?" Why shouldn't a company make something that the greatest number of people like? And in doing so, turn a large profit for its shareholders?
I'm talking about genre games like LotR and Star Wars. I'd actually go further with LotR than Star Wars, because Star Wars can better fit a broad audience. LotR, on the other hand, was not intended for a mass audience. EA has "dumbed it down." For example, when I was playing B4ME2, I cringed frequently as they mispronounced every other word (does no one do ANY research?!) But even with Star Wars, Lucas is more interested in appealing to NON-Star Wars fans than they are in the actual die-hard fans. Both LA and (especially) EA should consider appealing a little more to their central fanbase instead of going for mass appeal.

zappo inc
30 October 2007, 09:12 AM
you said it, admiral!

Lucas cares not one whit about the die hards (us) - we're the makers of his fortune, and will continue to be so. His fortunes can only expand if he appeals to the non-sw fan. They are his future, in his eyes. We diehards are just an embarrassment to him.

cheshire
30 October 2007, 12:06 PM
There's a new update in the rumor mill. There was a statement released today as LucasArts and Bioware launch a joint website. Essentially they announced that they are working on an "interractive entertainment" venture. I.E., they're making a game. That's as specific as they get at the moment.

http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://games.slashdot.org/games/07/10/30/1734213.shtml

Admiral Zaarin
31 October 2007, 11:43 AM
Well, it's at least a good sign. :)

Treefrog
6 December 2007, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin
Well, it's at least a good sign. :)

That doesn't necessarily mean a good thing if it means an MMORPG........

Ubiqtorate
6 December 2007, 07:54 AM
I'm hearing whispers that even if this is a KotOR-based MMORPG, and it likely is, it won't be replacing a stand-alone KotOR III. In fact, if BioWare does a KotOR-based MMO, that might be a good sign that they'll go on to make the stand-alone.

zappo inc
7 December 2007, 07:52 AM
excellent - although i've already begun a campaign arc that incorporates these alleged 'true' sith...drat! foiled again!!:D

Exalted1
10 December 2007, 08:24 PM
what about working like Guild wars? it has a definite story arc, a finite story arc, and the best part is, it's instance based so you only deal with idiots in town. besides that, there is no suscription fee! If you want a larger universe, you buy the expansions and that's it.

This would be an excellent compromise.

The fate of the galaxy is in your [your parties] hands. expansions based on sectors of space or planets. as such more quests become available and that is the focus of the game, not grinding. you will have more people online, and more money as the universe expands.

Ardent
11 December 2007, 07:57 AM
MMOs are only just now beginning to struggle with the idea that they need to advance the plots of the worlds. Blizzard is the first to make major moves to do so (Caverns of Time provides them with an amazing tool to ensure that old instances remain available even after everything is set right).

Gnomeregan will be restored and, I believe, treated as a capital city in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. It's taken five years, but it's finally happening. Naxxramas is being redone and moved up in level from 60 to 80 and will be the first available raid instance. There's talk that Mount Hyjal will be added into the normal world instance since the Emerald Dream has been shattered and things have more or less gone back to normal for the Night Elves.

So it's not impossible, it just takes a very long time and no one player will ever be the catalyst, although RP servers have players that will claim that honor.

If you want to gander at an MMO run by people who know how to inflict world change on an MMO, look at Hero's Journey by Simutronics. These folks have been maintaining a non-static world where each new area implemented is part of an event where a player discovers it. They're very savvy about bringing a game world to life.

Tav Kord
3 January 2008, 11:12 AM
Also, I believe the game "Earth and Beyond", since brutally murdered by EA, was pretty good for changing based on story. Content patches were regular, and reflected the prevailing sympathies of the players. (I.E. if most players completed a quest line for a certain faction to the exclusion of other factions, then the story would reflect this.)

Too bad the game got axed just as the galaxy was being invaded and things were heating up. Evolving story is the only way to go for this type of game... the challenging part is that you can't have the player characters be the "be-all end-all" heroes of the story. You have to foster a feeling of belonging to a much larger group... the population of players. An example from WoW would be the opening of the Gates of Ahn Quiraj or whatever it was called. Required all the players on the server to cooperate by contributing supplies, etc.

Admiral Zaarin
19 February 2008, 12:53 PM
Anyone heard anymore about this lately?

DarrynVarson
21 February 2008, 12:09 AM
Actually at some sort of official function there was a budget report where it was stated that Bioware is working on KOTOR 3 and the un-named MMO as well.

cheshire
21 February 2008, 03:52 AM
And the budget report made it seem as though they were two distinct entities?

Mike

DarrynVarson
21 February 2008, 06:23 AM
I found a bit more, it was a budget meeting for investors at EA (who owns Bioware). They were told that there is the unnamed MMO and Bioware is working on KOTOR III. Now this is very much still rumor and has not been confirmed by anyone, but this is what has popped up all over the net.

Jax Nova
21 February 2008, 07:25 AM
Hm... this is very interesting.

Star wars MMORPGs are always good. But if they make one I just hope that they make it with a little more options than galaxies, more variety.

There is tons of stuff to do on Galaxies... but once you have been in 1 bunker you have been in them all.

Once you have been in one cave you have been in them all....

I also hope they have a life time subscription if they make this thing. I quite playing Galaxies because of the cost. A life time subscription would make it much easyer.

Admiral Zaarin
21 February 2008, 10:55 AM
Actually at some sort of official function there was a budget report where it was stated that Bioware is working on KOTOR 3 and the un-named MMO as well.
I'm excited by the prospect of KotOR3 being single player. :)

Jax Nova
30 April 2008, 12:42 PM
Well, i got to wondering about this again and did some digging. This is all Icould really come up with.


http://www.primotechnology.com/2007/10/19/biowares-upcoming-mmo-based-in-kotor-universe/

It's not an offical thing but it looks hopefull that they will do the MMORPG

Admiral Zaarin
1 May 2008, 06:27 PM
*sigh* I'm disappointed. Not that I would have had room on my lappy for a single-player KotOR3 anyway, but...I could've made room for that. ;)

DarrynVarson
2 May 2008, 02:55 AM
Well lets hold on a second. Okay this MMO is being made by Bioware but there is also a unnamed single player game that I heard about. It is possible there could be KOTOR III and then KOTOR Online.

Assuming things havent changed in the long while it has been since I have heard anything.

cheshire
2 May 2008, 06:40 AM
I could be happy with that. Kind of like what Myst Uru was supposed to be.

Of course, I gave up on Myst when the title of the second to last Myst game wasn't Myst IV: We Are Deeply Sorry For Uru.

Jax Nova
2 May 2008, 07:01 AM
Yeah, it would be cool to see another KOTOR single player game, I have to admit. I was looking forward to that. i loved the first two but for some stupid reason neither one of them will work on my computer.

(in fact i loved the first one so much I could tell almost word for word what the NPCs would say depending on what you asked them... I know alittle obsesive)


However, I used to love Star wars Galaxies as well. The NGE totally screwed things up. Why they didn't revert and save the game is beyond me.
Galaxies was also pretty expensive, especially for a game that no one liked much anymore.

The chance to play another starwars MMORPG is just what I have been waiting for. Right now I am stuck playing LOTR online, which don't get me wrong, is a good game. However, i would MUCH rather have something starwars oriented anyday!

DarrynVarson
2 May 2008, 07:29 AM
I heard about the remodel of SWG and I couldn't get over it when I heard about it. I mean I was all over that game, but it was pointless because as it got closer I realized that my mom wasn't going to spring for the upgrade our computer REALLY needed at the time.

But in the article that was posted they had a link to the SWG update and I read it and I am like Wha.

They built the game a certain way, I mean they spent all this time and effort to make sure it was balanced and whatnot Then they totally change it. Biggest mistake ever.

Admiral Zaarin
2 May 2008, 10:09 AM
i loved the first two but for some stupid reason neither one of them will work on my computer.
No kidding? It won't work on my lappy, either. It's odd: won't work on my high-end two-year-old lappy, but it works at full graphics settings on my mediocre five-to-six-year-old desktop. :?

Starcloud
2 May 2008, 12:23 PM
The primotechnology article is older than the stockholder meeting information.

As it stands, currently, Bioware is supposed to be working on KotOR 3, AND there is a separate, unnamed MMORPG in the works.

The two projects are separate; the MMORPG is being developed in Austin, and another unnamed single-player type game (probably KotOR 3) is being developed in their Canadian studio, IIRC.

Evil overlord
2 May 2008, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin

No kidding? It won't work on my lappy, either. It's odd: won't work on my high-end two-year-old lappy, but it works at full graphics settings on my mediocre five-to-six-year-old desktop. :?
The Force works in mysterious ways.

Admiral Zaarin
2 May 2008, 02:32 PM
As it stands, currently, Bioware is supposed to be working on KotOR 3, AND there is a separate, unnamed MMORPG in the works.
Well, that's good to hear.

Exalted1
2 May 2008, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin

No kidding? It won't work on my lappy, either. It's odd: won't work on my high-end two-year-old lappy, but it works at full graphics settings on my mediocre five-to-six-year-old desktop. :?


most games, especially the older ones, haven't been programed to recognize laptop hardware. it's spotty at best to be able to play some games on a laptop in relation to it's desktop equivalent.

I've had that trouble in the past, but there is no real way to work around it that I know of.

Lightrunner
5 May 2008, 04:38 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing a multiplayer KOTOR III, just not an MMO. I've always wanted to play KOTOR I with two or three of my friends, but an MMO just simply won't work with KOTOR. If they do eventually make another Star Wars MMO, I hope it's more like Eve: Online than Star Wars Galaxies.

Jax Nova
5 May 2008, 05:51 AM
I would like to see another Star Wars MMO mostly just because I like MMOs but I want to play in the star wars universe.

I can see how KOTOR 3 being a MMO would deviate from the first two game styles but I actually think it would be a pretty cool idea.



But I tottaly agree that they should not do it the way they did Galaxies. (if for no other treason because Galaxies is going downhill)

I want lots of variety and a widely interactive system with tons of in-game minni games like sabac and podracing, swoop racing, arena battle matches... stuff like that. That way if you are bored with the main gme you can just go play a minnigame.

And they need to make it so the buildings and spacestations are boardable and they have their own set of quests on them (at least the space stations)


But yeah.... there are TONS of things i would do if I were in charge.... lol

Seghast
8 May 2008, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Jax Nova

However, I used to love Star wars Galaxies as well. The NGE totally screwed things up. Why they didn't revert and save the game is beyond me.
Galaxies was also pretty expensive, especially for a game that no one liked much anymore.

The chance to play another starwars MMORPG is just what I have been waiting for. Right now I am stuck playing LOTR online, which don't get me wrong, is a good game. However, i would MUCH rather have something starwars oriented anyday!

I'm not convinced we'll see a KotOR MMO, and won't be until I see a trailer or screenshots, but I do think we will see another Star Wars MMO. You can be sure that LucasArts is well aware of the number of fans that want a well-made SWMMO, and that they're also well aware of how badly SOE handled Galaxies.

They're probably only letting Galaxies stay alive until they either find a new partner to make an MMO with, or until Galaxies stops bringing in any profit at all (I'd guess it's just barely scraping by as it is).

What I want to know is why LA doesn't get SOE to rollback to any of the pre-NGE codes (CU, pre-CU, anything). I'm sure Sony has them archived somewhere, and both companies have to know that it would draw back a lot of the former players and boost the profit margins. Yeah, it's admitting their precious NGE failed, but everyone and their mother knows that already.

Admiral Zaarin
8 May 2008, 09:53 AM
LucasArts is well aware of
I'm not sure LucasArts is "well aware of" anything. :raised: I place a vote of no confidence in LucasArts abilities to read the fans' wishes. :amidala:

Starcloud
9 May 2008, 08:44 AM
The time for the rollback to have happened would have been in the first two weeks or so after the NGE was released.

Since then, there have been far too many changes for the database to be anywhere near "revertable" condition, too many new items, quests, content, etc that depend on the current NGE code to work.

SW:G is still growing back towards the numbers it used to have, very slowly, and apparently that's enough to keep it alive. Unfortunately, the developers are still thinking in the "grind-fest" mode of traditional MMORPGs and are introducing more ways to grind (collections, Heroic Encounters with tokens to buy in-game items), rather than more ways to have fun with the content. (City of Heroes and its storylines from contacts is one example).

And they continue to gut the way many players play Jedi in favor of the way the Development team plays Jedi, further straightjacketing the profession.

So, I haven't logged into Star Wars Galaxies in almost a month now.

SmugglerJedi
15 May 2008, 07:03 PM
To be fairly honest, I don't want somebody to make a Star Wars MMORPG. The only good that could come out it is if they did what White Wolf did and made books about the content in the games. (Speaking of which, I should go pick up <i>Dark Factions</i>, now that the Pandaren are out.) The reason is simple: I have to put up with people who talk all day about getting crit and this item and that gem and the next level and reskilling and BLAH BLAH BLAH! It's really annoying.

I played WoW for about four months. After that, I honestly cannot justify spending thirty bucks a month--or whatever it cost--to play a game that was essentially a modern reinterpretation of Sisyphus. You go up a level--and then you do it again, and again, and again, and it just gets longer and longer. More painful too, especially when you're jumped by random idiots who slave over the game because the concept of a life outside is alien to them.

Now, if it followed the path of, say, <I>Guild Wars</i> or <i>Anarchy Online</i>--or was completely free, in the case of <i>Shaiya</i>--I would have a much easier time getting into the game. I wouldn't even have a problem if it was ad-supported, especially if they put those ads in tastefully and without being too obtrusive. I still wouldn't become an MMO nut, but I would enjoy it far more. It's always easier to enjoy crap when its free.

Unfortunately, I think a Star Wars MMO of any kind would utterly ruin Star Wars' image. You'd get all the geeks running around with their ridiculous MMO talk, not thinking for once about what Star Wars is actually about (no, grinding banthas is not a job for a Jedi), while I shirk back to my little hidey-hole, focusing on writing essays detailing why Republicans are dumb on these issues, Democrats are dumb on these, and why you should vote for the Libertarians in November.

[And please don't take that as an invitation to start a political battle here. If you want that, comment at my blog (it allows anonymous comments) and sign off with your Holonet username.]

SmugglerJedi
15 May 2008, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Lightrunner
I wouldn't mind seeing a multiplayer KOTOR III, just not an MMO. I've always wanted to play KOTOR I with two or three of my friends, but an MMO just simply won't work with KOTOR. If they do eventually make another Star Wars MMO, I hope it's more like Eve: Online than Star Wars Galaxies.

Now EVE is totally different from any other MMO I have ever played. You can't get much farther from WoW than that. If they were to make <b>WoK</b> something like EVE, I might actually buy a month.