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Durian Keldrona
22 August 2001, 09:56 AM
Does Anyone know how Law was enforced in the old Republic and how crimes were Punished?

Durian Keldrona

Ziiteesh
22 August 2001, 12:30 PM
Since the Republic is the opposite of the Empire, and almost every crime (it seems like anyway) was a capital offense in the Empire, one could assume that they weren't big on capital punishment:D . On the other hand, some species could see that as a weakness, so maybe they kept it around for the most serious offenses (like the US; murder, treason, mutiny, etc.). I would think that most crimes would be taken care of by the local government, with only the most serious crimes and those that go against the galactic constitution going to the Republic.

I'm basing the Republic's legal system on the one developed by the Brits and adapted to the US. Imperial law seems to fit Rome better (things taken care of by local governors, ie Moffs). What do you think?

Durian Keldrona
22 August 2001, 01:41 PM
I guess there would probably be some system similar to how our Federal, State, and Local laws work here in the US. Question is how are they enforced? Who is the Law enforcement? I am sure that the Jedi Donot do it all. Where do the Jedi fit in? I have been reading Jedi Apprentice series and I have seen a premise that the Jedi have to be Requested.

Durian Keldrona

Ziiteesh
22 August 2001, 02:06 PM
Oh, right, the Jedi. Hmm, maybe they are something like a special prosecutor, requested on a specific case by case basis. Then again, there might not be a good comparison in real life, you know, since mystical power wielding protectors of justice don't pop up every day;) .

Durian Keldrona
22 August 2001, 02:15 PM
You mean Cain from Kung Fu doesnt exist? :D

Hmmm Special Prosecuter... I think Special Investigator might be more appropriate.. perhaps they work a bit like the FBI and step on toes occasionally.. might explain the bad attitude about them that developes.

Durian Keldrona

Durian Keldrona
22 August 2001, 02:31 PM
What about in between planets who protects the space lanes? I gathered that everything was hopelessly bogged down in the Senate.

Durian Keldrona

VixenofVenus
22 August 2001, 04:33 PM
I am pretty sure that the Old Republic had a system of Law and Justice much similar to the US's current system. Depending on where the crime took place, that was the appropriate law system you had to follow and justice system you had to answer to.

The Bounty Hunters Guild was probably originally started to go out and hunt down those legal criminals and bring them back to appear before the courts (much like licenced Bounty Hunters operate in the US now). The expanse of space requires their use.

Under Imperial law, law was whatever those in power said it was. And there really were no set punishments, it was what they felt like punishing you with. Much like a feudal system (lords and vassals).

Ziiteesh
23 August 2001, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Durian Keldrona
What about in between planets who protects the space lanes? I gathered that everything was hopelessly bogged down in the Senate.

Durian Keldrona

And then you get the rise of the Empire. Remember, Palpentine came to power because of that vote of no confidence in TPM because the republic could not protect places from the likes of the Trade Federation. If suddenly in the US the government could no longer protect you from being hijacked while on the freeway, things would change pretty quickly.

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 08:21 AM
I am aware that the Old Republic couldnt protect the space lanes... but did they have a militia to protect it or what? Whose job was it to protect the space lanes in Interplanetary space.. it would appear that its the Job of the inhabitants to protect there own system but what about in between the systems?

Durian Keldrona

VixenofVenus
23 August 2001, 09:50 AM
I'm pretty sure that was the Spacing Guild's job . . . oops . . . wrong book series . . . I mean, I think it was the Trade Federation's Job, that is why they had such a massive army -

a) protect their own interests
b) protect the spacing lanes

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 10:13 AM
the Impression I goot from Cloak of Deception was that the Trade Fed was allowed to supply its own protection after the Republic failed to be able to provide protection from Pirates. The impression I have gotten is that the Republic has No military and I have to wonder who does the originally did the policing of the space lanes that failed to do the job and therefore the Trade Fed was able to manipulate the senate into allowing them to arm their ships.
We have the FBI in the US who does the Republic have?

Durian Keldrona

Ziiteesh
23 August 2001, 10:16 AM
I'm pretty sure that the Trade Federation was only allowed to build such a large army because the Republic realized it could not protect the Trade Federation's assets. I don't think the TF protected anyone else.

Towards the end of the Republic, a lot of ships began protecting themselves by getting better weaponry or getting fighters. On the main site they have a ship (something like the Correllian Courier, but I'm not sure) that was designed with the danger surrounding the fall of the Republic in mind. I think it was everyone for themselves, and if a lot of ships were lost in a certain area, then the Republic would come in.

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 10:36 AM
Which is my point who was it that failed to do the protecting? Everything sounds like the Republic failed to protect the shipping lines. did the republic have a police force for doing this? a military? Im sure the Jedi didnt do this job.

Durian Keldrona

Ziiteesh
23 August 2001, 11:06 AM
I would assume that it was the military. It could also be a group like the Sector Rangers or something like that. Maybe one of those law enforcement organizations that Moridin created did that kind of thing.

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 11:40 AM
The only problem with that is everything i have read talks about the Old Republic not having a standing military.
Now I could see a police force being around and perhaps we could use the forces that Moridin created for that purpose.

The Jedi I see as a group that goes to places that need "Special Investigators" usually requested by the parties involved as a nuetral party.

Do you think the Republic is a "Innocent till proven Guilty" or "Guilty till proven Innocent" legal system?

now how bout Criminal organizations.
We have that Hutts who have their hands in practically everything.
the Nebula Front mentioned in the Cloak of Deception.
the Trade Federation I see as a group being tricked into less than legal deeds by Sidious
Booster Tarik mentioned in the X-Wing books
What is Kessel up to at this time?

Durian Keldrona

Ziiteesh
23 August 2001, 12:32 PM
Wow, no standing military? One would think that in an area that big that there would always be somewhere that would require some sort of military force. They would have had to had something, otherwise someone could just steamrole the entire Republic with little effort. Even if they had some sort of national guard or reserves, they would be no match for a decently trained army.

Mybe the reason that there are so many powerful criminal organizations was that the Republic didn't have a strong enough justice system. It seems like whoever is in power tries to put a crimp on smuggling and the like, but that only hits the little guy and the middlemen. The big guys always seem to get away. Perhaps the fall of the Republic was percipitated not only by a weak military and the inner workings of Sidious, but also its inability to combat strong criminal elements.

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 12:37 PM
I dont think the Republic would be all that easy to Steamroll do to having Jedi. But if their military was so minimal that the Republic Couldnt prevent Piracy it would be a serious problem and since the Senate is so Bogged down in bureaucracy that it can act to strengthen the military boom went the Republic.

Durian Keldrona

Nova Spice
23 August 2001, 01:16 PM
The Republic, in my campaign, has the Republic Security Council which presides over the all forces of the Republic military.

Army- known as the Republic Militia. It is used to monitor the on-planet problems and crime similar to a police force or similar to lets say the marines on StarCraft.

Navy- known as the Republic Space Defense Fleet. It is used to patrol space lanes in throughout Republic held space. However, the fleets work in tandem with the Trade Federation up until the Naboo crisis. After that, Palpatine beefs up the military especially the fleets. The RSDF ontains vessels such as the Missile Frigate found on SWRPGNetwork.com and the Crescent-class Cruiser.

SpecForces- known as the Republic Special Forces Division. These soldiers act as infiltrators, spies, bodyguards to senators, investigators, explorers, and if necessary a fully functional mobile infantry.


If you have any more questions about anything just e-mail me. I'm currently working on stats for these various troops and service men.

Durian Keldrona
23 August 2001, 01:44 PM
I would Take it that these Forces have become fairly limited in numbers therefore causing some of the problems with the Republic that Palpy is taking advantage of.

Sithspawn
24 August 2001, 01:26 AM
I was under the impression that the Republic fleet patrolled Republic allied worlds, dealing with any aggressors against those worlds. We see in TPM that the biggest problem was getting a decisive action though the Senate which was becoming slow and corrupt.

On the subject of local laws, would the Republic allow worlds to join who had questionable laws. Coyn for example. Touch a Coynite barehand and you're looking at a duel to the death, no question from local police.
Or worlds where even petty crimes are punishable by death. What then would a Jedi do if they apprehended a 14 year old orphan who was stealing an apple, knowing that the authorities will execute them? Should the Jedi uphold the Republic sanctioned law?

A player in my group is always pointing out that the New Republic has the death penalty. I'm not sure if this was said in the EU or in an adventure journal.

Durian Keldrona
24 August 2001, 09:27 AM
I believe there are certain rules that you have to have in order to join the republic you have to meet certain criteria. If you do not then you cannot join. So if their are laws that the republic does not agree with then you have to remove them. If you add the Laws after the fact then you can probably be sanctioned or some such.

VixenofVenus
24 August 2001, 12:30 PM
ok, watch out - POSSIBLE SPOILERS, Maybe!























OK, I'm pretty sure about my ideas, but I could be wrong. This info has been gathered by information in the OT, E1, and the book Rogue Planet.

I believe that with the breakup of the Trade Federation, and the upcoming clone wars - which of course will be secretly instigated by Darth Sideous - Chancellor Palpatine will beg the Senate to declare a state of war in the Republic, and just like in the US government, giving the figurehead leader more power.

That will be how Palpatine begins to build up the Republic Army (first through clones for the army) and Navy. Unfortunately (and fortunately in some ways) for him, the senate will originally vote to declare war, but they will involve the Jedi, making them leaders and overseers in the War. This will put them in positions where they will die easily, but also in positions where they can keep an eye on Palpatine.

But thats just my thoughts that I have gathered from what we know.

I know that Sienar and Tarkin will be highly involved in the background of the next movie - and Tarkin will most likely have an appearance as a middle-aged man.

Durian Keldrona
26 August 2001, 08:13 PM
I have to give it to Palpatine he is just an AMAZING people puppeteer. He gets people to do exactly what he wants them to do makes them think it was their idea, and to top it off come out smelling like roses.
So everybody thinks he is this great and wonderful guy.

Lokar
1 September 2001, 09:23 AM
Palapatine is the ulimate Politician. I can so see in either Ep2 or 3 him saying : 'I feel their pain' when he signs the death warent on the jedi.

I think everyone is right when it comes to why the Trade Federation's military build up was for self defense against pirates.

Perosnal views on the Old Republic:

Army- Most made up of militia forces that would be nationalized by the Senate. Their is a small standing army maintained by the Senate constasting mainly of the Officer core, and dedicated support units such as engineers and logistical units.

Navy- The main arm of the Republician military. Tasked with protecting the space lanes from foregin threats and exploration. The navy also included the Satrfighter Corp and the Marine Corp which was the main Republician ground force.

Intelligence- The Republic aslo maintained a a sophicated intellignce network both to keep track of other power (i.e. the Hutts, Hapes, ect) and to watch out for internal threats.

Sepcial Forces- The Republic also kept a small elite force to handel those special cases where using the milita forces or the Navy.

Law- My opinon on the matter is that it is an "Innocent Til Proven Guility" system, much like US which all the little loop holes. Mainly that if one has enough credits they don't need to worry about the courts.

It should be remember that by the time of TPM the Republic has been in decline for a while, prehaps even centuries. Budget cuts backs has reduced the quality and quanity of the military. Many avoid military service if they can rather than serve for little pay and no respect from their civilian leaders. Corruption is rife and enitre sector are mis managed. Systems are deemded ungovernable and are left to their own devices as the Sentors piously proclaim they have the answers as they raise taxes and use the money mainly to line the pockets of themselves, their cronies, and lastly the areas they resperent.

The Admiral
1 September 2001, 10:53 AM
Lesse,,,

We know that the OR had a Navy (Pellaeon at least served in it) as to it's size, I can see no particular reason for suggesting it to be all that small. Obviously, the Empire's is far larger, Palpatine instigated a massive increase in militarisation, though exactly what constitutes a massive increase is open for debate.

As to the Army, I've not seen anything specific that would suggest they didn't have one. I'd suggest that most worlds maintained a form of militia (Citing Naboo as example) but the Republic had to have troops, otherwise it's almost completely pointless. Those troops would be deployed by the Navy, and therefore would fit the description of Marines, but since ALL their troops would be dispatched this way, the term becomes somewhat moot, serving, as it does, to differentiate between different kinds of soldier.

As to Law and Order, we know that the Sector Rangers were established during the Old Republic, and served as a kind of FBI. We also know that Sectors, or Systems maintained their own police forces. Those local police forces would maintain local laws at the discretion of the local political body, except where such laws contradicted the laws of the Republic. (The Republic functioned essentially in the same way as the UN does on Earth, making it technically a Federation and not, as such, a republic at all,,,)
We also know that CorSec predates the Empire by a very long time. It continued to function throughout the Empire, and afterwards too. This would serve as a model of peace-keeping in the OR.
With the arrival of the Empire, not a great deal seems to have changed vis-a-vis law and order. Palpatine created the IOCI (Imperial Office of Criminal Investigations) as a body to govern the police forces of the galaxy, but they rarely did more than keep them in line with Imperial policy.
Palpatine did instigate some laws (possibly quite a few) and changed penalties for several, but it would seem to me that very little in the actual mechanics of it altered noticably. There is some talk in I' Jedi about how CorSec changed when the Empire took over, but the flavour of the conversation is mostly about how policies changed (some crimes were a higher priority) how idealogical officers were having faster promotion rates, and how CorSec were starting witch-hunts, rather than, for example, changing the proceedures for trial.

Nova Spice
1 September 2001, 03:46 PM
Yeah....that actually makes better sense to me than anything else said in this thread about the military ;)

Aaron B'Aviv
4 September 2001, 12:10 PM
Minor Cloak of Deception Spoilers
___________________________





















________________

In Cloak of Deception, the Jedi work together with a sort of Old Republic "police" running out of the Republic Judicial Department and known colloquially as the Judicials.

The Judicials hold jurisdiction over interstellar crimes, such as smuggling, space piracy, etc... As far as I can tell, for them to go on planet on official business, they need to be invited by the local authorities. This happened when they had to get permission from the Senex Lords to stage their attack on... what was the name of that world the Nebula Front staged from?

The Jedi seem to have much more free reign. They can go anywhere and do anything, or so it would seem.

CorSec, Sector Rangers, and other local police groups of this nature hold jurisdiction over local crime, or so I would assume. We see in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter an example of this, a Coruscant local police (though it's name escapes me).

Scenes in the Hal Horn stories that appear in Tales of the Empire and Tales of the New Republic imply that CorSec had some measure of jurisdiction to go off planet in search of criminals. I don't know how far this extends, perhaps they can only go to planets that they share extradition with by treaty, or perhaps because of Republic law, a CorSec agent can go anywhere in the Republic in search of a criminal who committed a crime on Corellia. That's what I would guess, I don't know how you want to rule.

Durian Keldrona
4 September 2001, 12:48 PM
Thats interesting...
Does anyone have Stats for Corascunt Police?

Naughty Dog
4 September 2001, 01:02 PM
"respects" different kind of laws in different systems.
for example, the laws on weapons are not the same on all the planets, so i pretty much agree hat th Old republic should have been ruled just like a federal country.
Maybe only the case related to the sovereignty of a planet are submitted to the senat.

Durian Keldrona
10 January 2002, 09:17 AM
THought I would bump this up and see what people thought based on the new info we have gotten in the last few monthes

Durian Keldrona
30 May 2002, 03:21 PM
Well now that we have seen AotC what are peoples thoughts on this thread?

Kobayashi_Maru
3 June 2002, 05:44 PM
I always imagin that a system was in the Republic because they want to be. But it seems that in AotC the Senate has forgot that and once you are in the Republic you WILL stay. The beginning of the end.

I thought laws would actually differ from system to system. Kinda like Alexander the Great's Greece, kingdoms were rulled by the Republic but under their own culture. Which Aristotle taught Alexander the Great to rule within a local culture. Something like that.

But I imagine it comes down to the seriousness of the crime and the target, System or Republic. So something like terrorism would or Republic tax evasion would involve the Republic Senate or the Jedi or the Republic Justice Dept. But locale system infractures would be dealt with local system authorities, like Sector Rangers and such.

But to have a body of law like ours, IMHO would be a Federation not a Republic. Close but different.

There's my two yen worth.

DNAphil
25 June 2002, 09:00 AM
It would seem to me that each planet must have their own police force to handle the day to day crimes. But it would seem that most of the Republic did not have any serious military force. Naboo had some military equipment and had a volunteer core. So one could speculate that Naboo could defend some of their trade lanes, but not enough of a force to fend off the Trade Federation.

In AOTC, Mace says that the Jedi are Peacekeepers. Which would imply that after 1000 years there are a low number of crimes against the Republic, and when these occur that the Jedi are sent to settle it.

In TPM Qui-Gon and ObiWan are sent to end the trade blockade. In AOTC ObiWan has just returned from settling a boarder dispute. Both of these issues are between two planets or governments. Those seem to fall into the catagory of Republic Law, much like how the FBI is involved in any crime that crosses state lines (i.e. when it involved more than one local government).

I see the Jedi as a body like the FBI, where they handle larger Republic problems. Things that take place on a planet are handled by local authorities. Sometimes the Jedi have to step on a few toes, much like the FBI does. It would also seem like Jedi have the authority to override a local investigation.

Some of my ramblings from the things I have seen, and my own thoughts as I gear up for running my new SW campaign in September.

DNAphil

Ravager_of_worlds
25 June 2002, 09:19 AM
in all this debate... i remember something about the army.

in "Rogue Planet" it talked about the republic absorbing the Trade Federations' army into its own forces. I thought that was really smart of Palpatine's character. Build up an army with the Trade Federation's resources to serve as a core for machinery and supply routes to jump start the need for Ep II's conflict (all part of Palp's plan, what a guy!)

Also, i think Wizards and the various books always talk about local police. In the NPC section of the RCR is a write up of Republic Peace Officers. I can only assume WEG has something similar in their library of source books... hmmm.... libraries of sourcebooks...