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View Full Version : Luke Wasn't Such a goodie-goodie



tauchiss
27 May 2006, 10:37 AM
Does anyone else notice Lukes Blatant use of the darkside in jabba's palace??? He force chokes two Gamorean gaurds, without being provoked.

PsychoInfiltrator
27 May 2006, 11:38 AM
Aherm.

According to Jedi Counseling #??, Force Choke is not inherrantly a Darkside skill.

And besides that, if a pair of large pit bulls sauntered towards you in a confrontational manner, would you wait until they attakced you to unholster (and use) the sidearm in your pocket?

coldskier0320
27 May 2006, 11:45 AM
I'd give Luke a DSP for that.

Still, one measly little DSP doesn't remove his "goodie-goodie"-ness. ;)


"But I was gonna go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!"

Oh...he's whiny too...:P

Tonyx
27 May 2006, 12:16 PM
I would give him a DSP for that for sure. It was wrong, there were other ways to go about that situation.

As for him being Whiny, that was long before he was a Jedi. By Jedi, he was over that whiny stage.

PsychoInfiltrator
27 May 2006, 12:40 PM
I wouldn't give Luke a DSP for that. Aside from fighting, there was no easily apparent way to get out of that situation. If he had killed them, then he'd get a DSP.

coldskier0320
27 May 2006, 12:45 PM
There was no reason to use the dark side. The guards were doing their job: namely guarding Jabba. They made no indication they were about to threaten Luke with summary capital loss, they just took measures to keep Luke out. Had the human pressed the issue, I'm sure they'd have tried to neutralize him, though in that case, Luke would be the agressor, as he is here. The use of the dark side here was blatant and unnecessary. And that, in my opinion, warrants a DSP...that's what they're for.

PsychoInfiltrator
27 May 2006, 01:03 PM
IMO, Grip isn't inherrantly Darkside, just as throwing a Stormie into a wall with MO isn't inherrantly Darkside.

Which explains my viewpoint.

tauchiss
27 May 2006, 02:08 PM
Plus, he did kill them, they collaspe to the floor with a death rattle!

Tonyx
27 May 2006, 02:38 PM
I have to go with tauchiss on this one. He did kill them. Had he just pushed them out of the way or something, that would be different. He killed them to get them out of the way. That warents a DSP.

In Galaxy Guide 5, Return of the Jedi for D6, it states that at the end of the movie he had two DSP. I am not sure where else he got them from, so if someone wants to try to clarify this I would appreciate it. I believe at least one of them was for this episode with the Gammoreans.

wolverine
27 May 2006, 09:54 PM
Probabily from his fight with vader just after he mentioned
'Sister. So you have asister. Now obiwan's failure is complete. If you will not turn, perhaps she will"

tauchiss
28 May 2006, 03:17 AM
But what I don't get is why luke killed the gaurds in the first place, that was something his father would do, yet he did it without hesitation. That is like a clear sign of the darkside. He could of just but a mind Bambozzle on them. So guys, WHY do you think he "pulled a vader"?

PsychoInfiltrator
28 May 2006, 05:43 AM
Hmmmm...in one of the short stories books, quite possibly Tales from Jabba's Palace, there's a story about a Gamorrean. It would likely mention whether or not the two guards died, as I know it mentions the death of the guard who got killed by the rancor.

Anyoen got the story on hand?

MalakiTyrel
28 May 2006, 09:59 AM
Lucas has stated in past interviews that the sequence with Luke and the Gamoreans was put in there to show that Luke was like Anakin and had the same potential to fall to the Dark Side. Lucas has stated that it was Luke accessing the Dark Side.

So, in my game, it would garner a DSP. The proper thing would have been either talking his way through or using Affect Mind -- as he did on Fortuna.

Uron Teff
28 May 2006, 10:19 AM
Actually it does not matter if the two Gamorean guards died or not. Luke used the Dark Side and there is no excuse for that. He performed an evil act - he was the agressor and he harmed the two guards. A clear DSP from my point of view.

IzVenjari
28 May 2006, 05:00 PM
Yep - Luke was ticked off, had a whole lot of power that he wasn't really used to controlling, didn't really have a whole grasp on light side v dark side yet, and he acted in an aggressive manner and killed two beings he didn't have to.

It'll live with him for the rest of his life - and a DSP is warranted

coldskier0320
28 May 2006, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
IMO, Grip isn't inherrantly Darkside, just as throwing a Stormie into a wall with MO isn't inherrantly Darkside.

Which explains my viewpoint.

That doesn't explain it at all. It just says what yuor viewpoint IS. Please, explain to me how choking the life out of someone can be a benign act that isn't dark in any sense of the word.

IzVenjari
28 May 2006, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by coldskier0320
Please, explain to me how choking the life out of someone can be a benign act that isn't dark in any sense of the word.
Homer Simpson makes it look pretty benign every time he chokes Bart. he almost makes it look lovable:D

tauchiss
29 May 2006, 03:03 AM
BUT, he never kills Bart, and he always has reason to do so.

IzVenjari
29 May 2006, 11:36 AM
LOL :D. and that is one of the differences. Tho Homer would probably get a DS point for the amount of times he's choked Bart in lieu of actual constructive discipline.

Ubiqtorate
30 May 2006, 04:44 PM
In the D6 Movie Trilogy Sourcebook, I think Luke has one or two dark side points. It doesn't explain where they came from, but I think most people accept that one was from using the Force to injure the guards at Jabba's Palace, and one was from when he lashed out in anger at Darth Vader on the Death Star.

stoic_75
30 May 2006, 08:52 PM
Jedi Counselling also said Yoda didn't get a DSP for using move object against the Imperial Guard. Which we all know is bunk. So, they are hardly infallible.

Let's face it: Luke and Yoda were both pissed and used the Force for attack. Fat juicy Dark Side Point right there. They could have used affect mind to persuade the bad guys to leave or move object to disarm them. But they didn't. WEG would never have let that crap slide.


Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
Aherm.

According to Jedi Counseling #??, Force Choke is not inherrantly a Darkside skill.

And besides that, if a pair of large pit bulls sauntered towards you in a confrontational manner, would you wait until they attakced you to unholster (and use) the sidearm in your pocket?

PsychoInfiltrator
31 May 2006, 03:08 PM
That doesn't explain it at all. It just says what yuor viewpoint IS. Please, explain to me how choking the life out of someone can be a benign act that isn't dark in any sense of the word.

Because I don't believe that the Gamorreans died, and believe the Luke was acting in self defense. It wasn't necesarily the msot virtuous thing to do, so as GM I'd probably give him a warning. Depending on the campign, of course.


Which we all know is bunk.

No, you just believe it to be. Some here would probably agree with you. I personally wouldn't.

coldskier0320
31 May 2006, 05:25 PM
Because I don't believe that the Gamorreans died, and believe the Luke was acting in self defense.

So by that reasoning, if you're walking along the street and feel threatened by some passerby, you're totally within your rights to go up and wring their neck? Please.

Those Gamorreans moved only to impede his progress and he choked the life from them. Even if they didn't die, that little maneuver certainly took the spring out of their porcine step.

I think you're trying very hard to rationalize what is quite apparently a dark act, when the reality is that, according to what the RPG rules (in d20 anyhow), Luke entirely and completely deserves a DSP for his actions in Jabba's Palace.

Ubiqtorate
31 May 2006, 10:23 PM
There's somewhere in one of the EU books where Luke thinks back on that event (choking the guards in Jabba's Palace), and realizes that he just doesn't feel right about that. That perhaps it wasn't necessarily "evil," but that it definitely wasn't the sort of thing a Jedi really should have been doing. Of course, there are no half-dark-side-points in the RPG, so the question of where that line should be drawn ultimately goes back to the gamemaster.

Uron Teff
31 May 2006, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
Because I don't believe that the Gamorreans died, and believe the Luke was acting in self defense.

I have to disagree. Under no circumstances the cause justifies the means. If Luke acted in self defense he wouldn't have to use a Dark Side ability. There were surely other options for a Jedi of his format. There is no explanation and justification for him choking the life from the two guards.

PsychoInfiltrator
1 June 2006, 04:37 PM
So by that reasoning, if you're walking along the street and feel threatened by some passerby, you're totally within your rights to go up and wring their neck? Please.

No, but if I'm being approached by a pair of unleashed pit bulls acting in a threatening manner...


There is no explanation and justification for him choking the life from the two guards.

Onvce again, your viewpoint coems from the Gamorreans dying, mine comes form them living. I view the use of Force Grip like the use of a taiser. Non-lethal, effective warning system, pretty much stops target from attacking the wielder.


Under no circumstances the cause justifies the means. If Luke acted in self defense he wouldn't have to use a Dark Side ability.

I've mentioned once or twice now Force Grip not being a darkside ability...IMO, if not factual canon. But I think that it was on the list of skill that ain't Darkside anymore rules-wise according to an older Jedi Counseling.

tauchiss
2 June 2006, 02:21 AM
the point remains the jedi way would have been
*Waves Hand* You can't see me, I was never here."
the sith way would have been:
*Brings hand up* *Gaurds choke then fall*

Pick what one luke used, but Psych, I think you are wrong, force grip isn't a "taser" or slapping someone's hand when they reach into the cookie jar, it's deadly.

No, but if I'm being approached by a pair of unleashed pit bulls acting in a threatening manner..
Don't try that...

coldskier0320
2 June 2006, 03:41 AM
OK, I'll play along. So when and where did the guards approach him in a threatening manner? They crossed their axes in front of him and made no moves to cause him physical harm.

And how can you say that force grip is non-lethal? non-lethal means 'not deadly'. Have you ever seen The Empire Strikes Back? It's a good movie...Darth Vader kind of takes care of debunking that theory.

So tell us...does Vader get a DSP, in your game, for his ANH choking of the imperial in the conference room with Tarkin? By your rationale, I don't the he does. The guy didn't die, Force Grip is apparently now not a dark skill to use, and the imperial was acting in a threatening manner toward Vader, insulting him and his faith, and through this, threatening to remove him from Tarkin's favor. If anything, I'd say that I'd probably feel more threatened by that guy's agressive attitude than a pair of Gamorreans blocking my way...especially when I have a whole arsenal of Force power at my beckon call.

tauchiss
2 June 2006, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by PsychoInfiltrator
I wouldn't give Luke a DSP for that. Aside from fighting, there was no easily apparent way to get out of that situation. If he had killed them, then he'd get a DSP.
Ya there was, the guards weren't strong willed ( what gamoreans are?). He could have waved his hand and said: you will let me through.The guards would step back, and it would have been over. Plus you hear a gurgle so they are probably dead. He didn't even need to hold it becuase he was probably so inexperienced with force grip the he gripped to hard, and actually crushed thier windpipes.

Ravnor
2 June 2006, 05:55 AM
Perhaps he was leaning towards the dark side at that point in time?

WookieWhomper
5 June 2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by coldskier0320

"But I was gonna go to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!"

Oh...he's whiny too...:P
Although I'm not sure what this had to do with the dark side points issue, it certainly does seem to run in the family...


It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back.

Ubiqtorate
5 June 2006, 11:08 AM
Like father, like son, I guess. Does that mean Ben will be whiny, too?

WookieWhomper
5 June 2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
Like father, like son, I guess. Does that mean Ben will be whiny, too?

Well his name-sake was too after all..


You were the chosen one..!!!

IzVenjari
5 June 2006, 11:50 AM
I think being whiny and being jedi kinda run together - part of suppressing all possibly negative emotions :).

Back to the darkside points issue - i agree with coldskier and tauchiss. The action was unwarranted, unprovoked and leaning towards the darkside - and that is probably where one of his two darkside points comes from.

Ravnor makes a good point too - perhaps he was leaning towards the dark side. I mean it wasn't too long after his Cloud City fight with my peep Vades :D and Luke can't have been a happy man.

WookieWhomper
5 June 2006, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by IzVenjari
I think being whiny and being jedi kinda run together - part of suppressing all possibly negative emotions :).

Not really, I've never seen any example of Yoda or Mace acting whiney. Really its just those three I think.

IzVenjari
5 June 2006, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by WookieWhomper
Not really, I've never seen any example of Yoda or Mace acting whiney. Really its just those three I think.
Yeah - but Yoda has had 900 or so years to work on it. Maybe that's why he speaks backward. And Mace is Mace - he was probably born looking that tough. :D

WookieWhomper
5 June 2006, 12:06 PM
Ok, but can you name any other jedi who came off whiney in a book or movie?

IzVenjari
5 June 2006, 12:09 PM
Dude - this is getting way off-topic. I'll start up a thread somewhere soon where we can talk about this. :)

Back to the Darkside points people: - sorry about the almost hijacking..

Edit: Thread started in Chaos and Miscellanea

Ravnor
5 June 2006, 12:59 PM
i agree with that.

johnnyputrid
6 June 2006, 03:24 PM
Interesting thread. If nobody minds, I've got a few cents to add.

Yes, Luke is whiny. He was meant to be that way. He is whiny because he was a teenager trapped in what he saw as a dead-end existance. I know when I was a teenager I was whiny. In fact, there are very few teenagers who aren't whiny. Luke was meant to represent the typical troubled teen of his time, though that behavior seems to cross generations and certainly holds true with the youth of our time today.

As the films progress, Luke comes to realize his destiny and loses much of the whininess of his character, thus representing his growing maturity as not only a fledgling Jedi, but as a man. Luke realized he had bigger fish to fry than his own inherent character flaws and worked hard towards overcoming them. But not without cost, least of all one of his hands.

To put Luke's utilimately selfless act of redeeming his father into its proper light, he had to perform a few dirty deeds here and there. When we first see Luke in RotJ, he is Back In Black. He is no longer the whiny teenager, but a grown man, possessed of great power, but still has not fully learned great responsibility. In short, he needed to make an entrance that would have great impact. We needed to see Luke as the proverbial BMF so that we could see just how powerful he has become, and why the Emperor and Vader have taken such an interest in him. The enitre Tatooine sequence is set up to show us just how awesome a Jedi can be, even one that has not been fully trained. We see now why he is so important. We also needed to see just how evil that he could potentially become, again putting his eventual selfless act in perspective.

Only later on, when he gives up his power do we see Luke for what he really is, a true hero who only wanted to see his father return to his roots of goodness. Luke was willing to to sacrifice everything to prove his belief that one could return from evil, if one used love as the catalyst. This also has the additional effect of casting down the traditions of the old Jedi Order, and setting the way for the new one. Luke and Vader both proved that love was a valid emotion for a Jedi to carry, and that love had the power to defeat evil.

In the end we see that Luke is more than just a Jedi. He is a man that embraces his emotions and uses them to perform acts of good. This is not to say that Luke is entirely good, and certainly not a goodie-goodie. As I see it, he is a man, a friend, a son and a Jedi, in that order.

This concludes my rant. Please feel free to begin the lambasting.:D

Wesly Senesca
6 June 2006, 08:29 PM
You have some good arguments there, johnny. Glad to see someone else out there believes the OT was a maturation process for the farmboy.

Ubiqtorate
6 June 2006, 09:18 PM
There's a lot of talk, especially in the Smithsonian exhibit, about Star Wars as a classic example of the "Hero's Journey" tale. It's very much about Luke's coming of age. I just wonder if he really had to "perform a few dirty deeds" in order to become a hero.

johnnyputrid
6 June 2006, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
There's a lot of talk, especially in the Smithsonian exhibit, about Star Wars as a classic example of the "Hero's Journey" tale. It's very much about Luke's coming of age. I just wonder if he really had to "perform a few dirty deeds" in order to become a hero.

Well, the reason I say Luke needed to perform a few bad, or rather not-so-good things is because if he had been continuously good all of the time, it would have detracted from his humanity. Humans make mistakes and occasionally do bad things, and Luke was no exception. Showing Luke act impulsively (rushing off to fight Vader) and releasing his anger (choking the Gamorreans, lashing out at Vader) showed us that Luke is exactly like we are, and is not above us, despite his talents with the Force. Your classic morally superior, do-no-evil hero would not have drawn the same amount of interest for the story as Luke's average Joe angst-ridden whiny one does.

Besides Luke, the only other character who truly shows just how human a person can be is, ironically, Anakin. Watching the six films in chronological sequence definately shows how the two characters roughly parallel each other's paths. Anakin may have had the greater potential to become a true hero, but he allowed his negative emotions to rule him. Luke on the other hand, personified heroism by allowing his positive emotions to rule him. Both cases represent the human state extremely well.

I think that is what still continues to draw me to Star Wars to this day, the fall of one hero giving rise to another. That and all the cool sound effects.:D

wolverine
6 June 2006, 10:24 PM
Johney. It was very nice to see your argument as to why it was good that he did bad..

tauchiss
7 June 2006, 02:37 AM
It's true. Humans have a chioce, if we become a utopian society, then we lose our humanity. By nature humans aren't perfect. Luke is just human. I ptretty much agree with you johnny

coldskier0320
7 June 2006, 04:04 PM
Well spoken, ner vod.

PsychoInfiltrator
7 June 2006, 05:12 PM
Well spoken, ner vod.

What he said.

You have quite the talent for getting at the heart of the issue quickly, JP.

coldskier0320
7 June 2006, 05:30 PM
Oh, I was just returning that sentence. He lent it to me a few days ago, and I'm finished using it now, figured this was as good a time & place as any to return it. ;)

johnnyputrid
7 June 2006, 05:44 PM
Thanks, vode.

I think the big question with Luke is not did he deserve Dark Side Points for his actions, which I think he did, but rather why he performed those actions, which I believe I explained pretty thoroughly, at least from my POV. Personally, I never thought that Luke was even conscious of the fact that he was performing questionable acts. His raw Force talents and lack of developed judgemental skills simply caused him to just act on instinct. Luckily for him, his instincts were correct, and things worked out okay.

gmjabreson
16 June 2006, 06:14 PM
I'd still give him a force point, he used the force in violation of Yoda's teachings. A Jedi uses the force, for knowledge and defense, Never for attack. Hello?! He just used it to attack and kill 2 gamorreans

Ravnor
16 June 2006, 11:57 PM
I'd give him about two darkside points for that, if he used a mind trick or foce puched them out the way, then thats understandable. But foce choking someone because they are in your way is somthing Vader would do.

Uron Teff
17 June 2006, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by gmjabreson
I'd still give him a force point, he used the force in violation of Yoda's teachings. A Jedi uses the force, for knowledge and defense, Never for attack.

I guess you simply meant that he deserves one Dark Side Point. ;)


Originally posted by Ravnor
I'd give him about two darkside points for that [...]

Why two? What for? I only see Luke committing one act of gruesome violence. And the second would be for his hair-cut? ;)

Ravnor
17 June 2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Uron Teff

Why two? What for? I only see Luke committing one act of gruesome violence. And the second would be for his hair-cut? ;) [/B]

because he killed two people for no particular reason. Think about it, he force chokes two gamorriens to death because they were doing their jobs. Then he repeatedly gives Jabba the hutt warnings that he will kill him before he hacks appart several of his guards.

Jedi_Shadow
17 June 2006, 10:23 AM
If I were to give him two DSP, it would be because he killed two guards. Under the circumstances, however, I think it would only warrant one DSP.

As far as Luke warning Jabba, I personally chalk that up to him giving the hutt every opportunity to cooperate. Personally I would have said something along the lines of, "You let us go, or we will let ourselves go." That's a little more diplomatic than, "Free us or die."

Tonyx
17 June 2006, 10:33 AM
I am not sure on this, but I think that he might have had one before he got to Jabba's Palace. If so then it was just one DSP. Not to mention that the 2 DSP were what he had after the movie was over. So who is to say that he didn't get another one when he attacked Vader or at another time.

Ravnor
18 June 2006, 05:54 AM
Is the force choke ability linked to the dark side? I seems to be simple teleknisis and Anikin learnt it while he was still a Jedi, it didn't seem to effect him.

Uron Teff
18 June 2006, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Tonyx
I am not sure on this, but I think that he might have had one before he got to Jabba's Palace. If so then it was just one DSP. Not to mention that the 2 DSP were what he had after the movie was over. So who is to say that he didn't get another one when he attacked Vader or at another time.

Well does it matter if Luke had no, one or fourteen Dark Side Points as he steped into Jabba's Palace? I guess not. Nonetheless I think Luke had at the end of Return of the Jedi more than just two Dark Side Points due to the Emperors fear-attacks.
Altogether, I see that killing both guards may deserve one Dark Side Point for each guard, but I would have given him only one. ;)

Ravnor
18 June 2006, 06:02 AM
On second thoughts i agree with Tonyx, he only used one force power so only one DSP.

Admiral Zaarin
1 January 2007, 05:22 PM
I personally think that Force choke is a blatantly dark side act. I don't care if you're Force choking the Dark Lord of the Sith or Force choking a gizka, it's just simply evil, if for no other reason than its source. In fact, the Jedi way is to avoid using the Force on others whenever possible. E.g., Luke felt uncomfortable just using the Force to mess the Imperial pilot's minds in Dark Force Rising (I think it was that one; it was one of Zahn's books).