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View Full Version : Making Walkers=Capitals and Speeders=Starfighters



Jeremosh
3 January 2002, 02:40 PM
I've been giving this a lot of thought, and decided it might be a good idea for the speeder and starfighter scales, and the walker and capital scales, to be the same. This would make walkers very tough and damaging, and make speeders a viable alternative to starfighters.

Now, while this could make them a bit too powerful, consider this. Speeders are far less versatile than starfighters. An x-wing is sturdier, has better weapons, sensors, the ability to travel through space, and so forth than a combat airspeeder. Now if they were the same scale, the airspeeder would still be overall inferior, but at least they would be worth their credits.

Though an AT-AT would thus be as tough as some capital ships, walkers are much more specialized. They also would have fewer weapons. I would think it fair.

Though Luke did cut open an AT-AT with a lightsabre, and it is impossible to damage a capital ship with a character weapon (in the 2nd edition scale rules), I don't think cutting up a walker with a sabre actually would directly contribute to destroying it... presumably, a character with a lightsabre could also chop through a door or wall in a death star, despite not being able to actually contribute to its destruction.1

But what do you guys think?

Kayle Skolaris
4 January 2002, 01:38 AM
So lemme get this straight... You want to make a 3 meter tall AT-PT capital scale? Yeesh, and I thought people hated the idea of the 25 meter Skipray Blastboat being capital scale, they're gonna LOVE this!

Eh... I honestly don't like the idea. What I'd do is combine Walker and Starfighter scale if you're looking to bridge some gaps somewhere. Those two are so close already as to need very little "combining" and it doesn't result in incredibly overpowered walkers.

Random Axe
4 January 2002, 06:59 AM
Remember, Luke didn't actually cut through the walker armor. Take a second look at the tape: he just hacked at a control which slid open an access hatch, so he could then throw in his grenade or thermal det or whatever.

I've often thought about the question of combating Walkers and think, why doesn't EVERYONE just use their starfighters to pound the cr*p out of the AT-AT's? What's to stop them from just hovering over a walker with their YT-1300 and blowing it away with one shot?

If they WERE flying a starfighter like an XWing or Ywing or whatever, I would rule that the speed of the fighter is too fast in order for them to get an accurate shot, or to allow for more than one shot per round because as soon as they line up on the target, they zoom past it. That's where the benefit of using a weaker-armed vehicle like a speeder comes in, because it is agile enough but not too overpowered when it comes to lining up a target.

Kayle Skolaris
4 January 2002, 07:24 AM
Actually a half-speed movement by a Y-Wing would be almost identical to attack speed for an A-10 Thunderbolt which is a dedicated ground attack aircraft.

Incidentally, the sovereign method of dealing with walkers and other armored vehicles IS starfighters, but most planets have planetary shields which make landing fighters difficult. Case in point, the Battle of Hoth. The theater shield there prevented attack by TIE Fighters, but slow-moving AT-ATs were able to penetrate the shield much the same way the slow-moving TradeFed battle droids penetrated the Gungan theater shield at the Battle of Theed.

Jericho_Narcas
10 January 2002, 02:23 AM
Anybody ever thought of using gigs? Starfighter scale vehicles that are for all intents and purposes low-class starfighters, but use the space transports skill instead of starfighter piloting. I think I saw them in Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Authority Sourcebook . Pretty cheap too -- 4,500 credits used, and they just might fill the niche you're talking about here.

Here are the stats in case anyone is interested...

Craft: CSA TIS Zeta 19
Type: Light Aerospace Patrol Fighter
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 15 meters
Skill: Space Transports: Zeta 19
Crew: 1, gunner: 1
Crew Skill:
Passengers: 2
Cargo Capacity: 200 kg
Consumables: 1 day
Cost: 45,000 (new) / 4,500 (used)
Maneuverability: 1D
Space: 6
Atmosphere: 330 ; 950 kmh
Hull: 2D+2
Sensors:
Passive: 10/0D
Scan: 15/1D
Search: 20/1D+1
Focus: 2/3D
Weapons: 2 Laser Cannons (Fire Linked)
Fire Arc: Turret
Crew: 1
Skill: Starship Gunnery
Fire Control: 1D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range: 100-300 m / 1.2 km / 2.5 km
Damage: 5D

They might suck vs. actual starfighters, but I think they'd do pretty good against walkers. By the way -- I've gone up against walkers with my ship and they can take a good hit or three from laser weapons. My advice: hit 'em with a proton torpedo (if you got 'em) and take them out with one shot -- that way you won't have to make another pass. Gigs don't have proton torpedoes, but they do have a turret mounted laser which helps a lot...

Oh yeah -- I hate the scale modifiers in the R&E 2nd edition rules. I still use die caps, but other than that I like the R&E rules.

barna284
12 January 2002, 05:17 PM
I don´t like this idea, although I think that AT-AT´s are too weak in D6 (anyone share my opinion?)

"eesh, and I thought people hated the idea of the 25 meter Skipray Blastboat being capital scale"

YESSS!!!! I just bought "Operation Elrood" and I couldn`t believe this babies were capital scale...back to SF scale they go then

Jeremosh
12 January 2002, 05:45 PM
Suit yourself. I just thought walkers and speeders are rather useless, since a ghtroch freighter or yt-1300 right off the shelf can kill any of them with incredible ease and likely cost less.

Jeremosh
12 January 2002, 05:50 PM
Oh, combining walkers with STARFIGHTERS, I thought you said with speeders... that could work I suppose

Thrawn
13 January 2002, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
Case in point, the Battle of Hoth. The theater shield there prevented attack by TIE Fighters, but slow-moving AT-ATs were able to penetrate the shield much the same way the slow-moving TradeFed battle droids penetrated the Gungan theater shield at the Battle of Theed.

I think you might be a little mistaken Kayle

The Hoth Shield Preventede all sorts of craft to pass through.
But it was only projected upwards and it couldn't cover the whole planet. not enough shield generators or something
because of this AT-AT barges or dropships could land beyound the shield and deploy warkers and they could then head for the Rebel Base
if any of the warkers had touched the shield instant vaporization.

Well Back To topic

Yes combining Starfighters and walkers would be nice
then you have one less scale to work with.

As far as I remember X-wings and Y wings also have repulsor engines so they could make the same as a feighter hover over the Walker and shoot at it but it has to come in nice and easy to make the run

barna284

It is only the Shields and some weapons on the Blast boat that are Cap. Scale the rest are Starfighter
Remeber it says Scale: Capital ( because of powerout put)

Just my two cent

Kayle Skolaris
14 January 2002, 07:09 PM
Barna, I personally LIKE the Skipray as a cap-scale vessel, but that's just me. If you convert it to SF scale I STRONGLY suggest that you double or even triple its hull and shield code as it is meant to be an extremely heavily armored gunship. Sort of a tank with ion engines, as it were...

Tem_Starrunner
16 January 2002, 10:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
Case in point, the Battle of Hoth. The theater shield there prevented attack by TIE Fighters, but slow-moving AT-ATs were able to penetrate the shield much the same way the slow-moving TradeFed battle droids penetrated the Gungan theater shield at the Battle of Theed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by Thrawn
I think you might be a little mistaken Kayle

The Hoth Shield Preventede all sorts of craft to pass through.
But it was only projected upwards and it couldn't cover the whole planet. not enough shield generators or something
because of this AT-AT barges or dropships could land beyound the shield and deploy warkers and they could then head for the Rebel Base
if any of the warkers had touched the shield instant vaporization. :

Thrawn, Kayle the Rebellion didn't use starfighters because of the amount of fuel they would burn up in atmosphere. Remember the exchange Luke had with 2-1B about the T-47s (AKA Snowspeeders) there wasn't time to load them, so they were expendable. The snowspeeders were used not because the shield would keep the starfighters from flying (the same problem would have accured with the speeders). The starfighters could have be used but they had to stay under the shield and whe they escaped would have to drop out of hyperspace to refuel somewhere before going onto the fleet. (You also got to remember something about many movies the easy way isn't way its going to be done.)

The idea of making walker and capital the same scale is interesting but not really believable. There is huge size difference between walker and capital scale and thats why there not the same scale. Secondly they're different because walker have no shields of any kind. They also don't have enough energy to even to come close to the output of capital ship.

Now combining walker and starfighter scale makes more sense. Then they could take a beating from a starfighter but still be taken down by a torpedo just like most unshielded starfighters.

This has got me thinking about something how well would a shielded walker with starfighter scale weapons handle against a starfighter?:raised: I'm off to the drawing board.:p

Kayle Skolaris
16 January 2002, 05:40 PM
Uh, my post had nothing to do with Rebel use of starfighters at Hoth, but lack of Imperial use of them. The Imps don't need to worry about wasting fuel, so that should'nt have been a factor. Of course, we never saw any Imp fighters in atmospheric operations in the movies, so we only have EU "evidence" to suggest that TIEs are capable of such.

On the subject of the Rebels not using snubfighters at Hoth, it had nothing to do with fuel limitations and everything to do with escorting their transports to safety past the Imp ships in orbit.

Calanthe
28 January 2002, 08:45 AM
I've never thought much about the different scales, and hadn't realized that a walker could be taken down pretty easily by the weapons on a starfighter. The question this raises then is: why didn't the rebels use their x-wings and other starfighters at the battle of hoth. Tem_Starrunner feels that it was because the x-wings would burn too much fuel, while Kayle Skolaris feels that it was because the starfighters were being used to escort the fleet.

I have a hard time agreeing with Kayle Skolaris's PoV, because it seems to me that the starfighters of the speeder pilots (e.g. Luke's) were held in reserve for the pilots’ escape after the battle. The pilots were then supposed to rendezvous with the fleet (although Luke didn't), and were never used to escort a transport. So why didn't Luke et al just use their x-wings during the battle and then immediately fly off-planet afterwards to rendezvous with the fleet? I think this leads to the fuel efficiency issue that was mentioned by Tem_Starrunner.

I don't know enough about the fictional mechanics of x-wings to know how much fuel they'd burn in an atmosphere, but it seems like a reasonable explanation. First and foremost, x-wings are STARfighters, and I'd guess that the repulsorlifts on them are strong enough only for minor/slow maneuverability and for getting enough altitude to engage their ion-thrusters (hope this is the right term?!) for real speed. This being said, they’d have to use the ion-thrusters, which can’t be nearly as efficient in an atmosphere as in space—all that lovely friction that doesn’t exist in a vacuum—for atmospheric combat, thus burning through their fuel very quickly.

The repulsorlifts on air/snowspeeders, on the other hand, are most certainly made for high speed and maneuverability in an atmosphere, making them much more efficient for such combat. If a starfighter were to be equipped with an air/snowspeeder’s repulsorlift engines (which would be a feat in and of itself!), it still couldn’t be as fast as a true speeder, because the starfighter still has those huge ion-drives weighing it down!

Of course, I’m not sure how this holds-up with the EU… Are many combats between starfighters in an atmosphere mentioned? How were they handled?

Jeremosh
28 January 2002, 08:57 AM
Well, starfighters are better in an atmosphere than speeders... a rebel alliance combat airspeeder is only as fast as a Y-wing. Really, all they'd need is to buy a YT-1300 transport, used, only costing 25K, about half that of a combat airspeeder, then fly it over to weapons range with the walkers and land... the walkers would be unable to damage it or escape, and it could blow away each one in one hit. They'd be fine as stationary turrets, no fuel problems there, with the added bonus that they could retreat if they had to.

Also, despite however costly an X-wing is, I doubt the amount of fuel it'd take for a single mission like that would cost 50K or more, and a single X-wing would be all you need, really, to blast all the walkers into smithereens with purest ease. Indeed, why would they need to evacuate, when all them AT-ATs would be powerless against even parked fighters or freighters?

It seems more realistic to me that huge, incredibly heavily armored, slow, and specialized machines would be able to defeat tiny, very lightly armored (compare the thickness of an AT-AT's leg to an X-wing's wings), fast, and versatile ships in a contest of brute strength.

Kayle Skolaris
28 January 2002, 04:21 PM
How about killing off "walker" scale and making walkers and fighters the same scale? In the alternative, reverse Walker and Fighter scale so that Fighters are weaker than Walkers. Using Revised and Expanded rules, fighters are practically worthless against capital ships anyway (what with the scale modifiers adding to hull AND shields) so what would it be hurting?

Jeremosh
28 January 2002, 05:02 PM
Even better! Such a smart Kayle.

Kayle Skolaris
29 January 2002, 09:28 AM
Yes, well I do have the occasional burst of intellect breaking through the otherwise opaque curtain of senility surrounding me... :D

Emperor Xanderich II
30 January 2002, 03:52 AM
The best way to solve the dilema about starfighters blowing walkers to kingdom come, is - as GM - to set up the scenario so as to prevent this. Make sure the characters ship is somehow disabled by the enemy, or someone in command thinks that he doesn't need to deploy fighters as they may be needed somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

That way you don't have to fiddle with the rules