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View Full Version : got a problem with fallen jedi. any solutions ?



jarv
10 January 2002, 01:35 AM
One of my players started as fallen jedi. he was playing easy - not to darkside style, nor lightside. then he did something extremaly good. my players were impressed, I was impressed. he gained some force points, he started to get back to the light side. and sudennly...
second of my players is playing fallen jedi to... at the moment he's on a dark side, but he's coming back, supported by his friend, also jedi (by the way - this one is really lightsider - i love his attitude, as a light side jedi).

the problem is, that first player (let's call him ender darkstarr) wanted to kill that second one (seen virago) - without a reason. at least it was without a reason for me (and rest of my players). after several lightsaber duels, situation pushed them to stop. at the moment, darkstarr is blind (due darkside influence), and they're not fighting anymore. but player who roleplays as darkstarr decided to get to the darkside anyway, because, as hes said - dark side will get him stronger, and then he'll back to the lightside - much stronger.

main problem here is that he doesn't understand the cost of such actions. so what should I do ? I allready blinded him, to show him that darkside is not the 'killing-with-fun' thing. he was so paranoical in some moments, that he almost killed a little girl. but he still wants to get to the darkside....

any suggestions ? I'm wondering about killing him... in some duel, or some fight... and killing him not in the heroic way. but as far as I know, that won't make him understand... so I'm looking for other solutions.

Jericho_Narcas
10 January 2002, 01:49 AM
I say let him go over to the Dark Side, take over the character (as per the rules), and then really show them what the Dark Side is all about by turning him against the group. You may even force the other players to kill him themselves. That's how it is with the Dark Side... it starts off giving, and then it takes -- with a vengeance. If you play it correctly no one in your group will ever try that again...

Darth Bile
10 January 2002, 07:03 AM
okay, depending on your style, you could always have him meet up with a real darkside jedi/sith lord and show him what really happens when a person goes to the darkside, and the thing is, whenever he comes back to the light side in the WEG game, he loses all cp and force points, per the rule, which in a way, makes him weaker than everyone else in the party since they still have their cp and force points which they can use.
but like i said, all depends on your style, but i suggest showing him what it really means to go to the darkside and give him a taste of it, he needs to be somewhat paranoid, untrustful and other similar stuff, the darkside doesn't give stuff without taking a price, sometimes more than a person is willing to give to it.

Troy Henist
10 January 2002, 07:34 AM
I would let him fall back to the darkside. When he starts to try and redeam himself make it much harder for him. Sometimes it is not as easy as people think, and the cost can be quite high including the loss of your life. Look at Darth Vader. Luke managed to bring him back to the good side but a what cost.

It could also lead to some adventure ideas. The person who is trying to fall to the darkside attracts the attention of Sith Lord. Who offers to train him and increase his power if he does a task for him, only to turn on them once the task is done.

Depending on the era you play in he could be hunted the Jedi. This could cause serious problems for the rest of the party. Do they defend their friend or hand him over to the Jedi.

Having a someone who is trying to go over to the darkside is going to cause problems for the party anyway. It could lead to them into all sorts of problems especially if he staring to commit really evil acts.

Troy Henist
10 January 2002, 07:47 AM
I would let him fall back to the darkside. When he starts to try and redeam himself make it much harder for him. Sometimes it is not as easy as people think, and the cost can be quite high including the loss of your life. Look at Darth Vader. Luke managed to bring him back to the good side but a what cost.

It could also lead to some adventure ideas. The person who is trying to fall to the darkside attracts the attention of Sith Lord. Who offers to train him and increase his power if he does a task for him, only to turn on them once the task is done.

Depending on the era you play in he could be hunted the Jedi. This could cause serious problems for the rest of the party. Do they defend their friend or hand him over to the Jedi.

Having a someone who is trying to go over to the darkside is going to cause problems for the party anyway. It could lead to them into all sorts of problems especially if he staring to commit really evil acts.

Lord Byss
10 January 2002, 07:53 AM
Let him go to the dark side, then shaft his character. Why? 'Cause thats what the Dark Side does. Trick him, lure him with promises of power but really just darksider after darksider uses him for their own schemes (then disposes of the useless pawn afterward?). If he lives, as Troy said, what makes you think he will return to the light side before the party kill him. If he kills someone while the party are there but they do nothing to stop him, give up and run a darkside campaign.

MassassiC
10 January 2002, 08:08 AM
Hmm... sounds a lot like a power player/munchkin. You can't just casually go from the light side to the dark and back again.
If he goes dark, then remove the character from him and slowly turn it into some uber-villain (Best way is to find out what his plans are for the expansion of his character before you do this) and then throw him at the group (with his new character, of course) and keep doing it until they kill him or "redeem" him (although why the new character would want to is kinda beyond me). And once he is redeemed, he should be as weak as a puppy (or die v. soon afterwards ala Darth Vader) because of the toll of removing all that Dark Side influence.
I've never liked Munchkins, and tend to hurt them the most for their actions. If they carry on like that, then they will get hurt until I point it out to them that maybe they should design something better for group harmony :)

Sabre
10 January 2002, 11:43 AM
It sounds to me like the player doesn't have a full grasp of the price for choosing the dark side. Blinding him was a good warning, but if he can't take a hint (and that's a rather obvious hint you're giving him) the dark side SHOULD consume him.

I've been considering an expanded version of Dark Side points, which goes something like this:

My house rules:
Once your DSPs exceed your FPs, you are a servant of the dark side. Not quite consumed, but it's going to start having an influence on your actions. A character can no longer gain FPs except by calling on the Dark Side (at which time they gain an additional DSP as well).

Furthermore, the GM takes on the role of the Dark Side. The GM may compel a character to do the Dark Side's bidding, rolling as many D vs the character's willpower as the character has Dark Side points. If the character fails the role, they lose control and do whatever the GM wants, no matter how detrimental it is to their wellbeing. This can also be used to force a character into inaction at a critical point.

When the character calls on the Dark Side, they strike a deal with the GM saying what they want from the Dark Side. The GM, speaking on behalf of the Dark Side, tells the character what they have to give as payment. This might be CP, FP, a required action, or gaining DSPs. What's really useful about this is that if the player REFUSES the deal, you can then have them make a willpower check to see if the Dark Side can compel them to take it anyway using the previous rule. Then you KNOW they're doing something they don't want, and then the'll start to understand the price of the Dark Side.

At 10 DSPs, the character is fully consumed by the dark side. They lose the character, and it is taken over by the GM, or simply declared dead.

A reminder of a couple of the book's rules (pg 152 2nd ed R&E):

As the rules say, if you fail in an attempt to call on the dark side, it takes 1D worth of CP (a random value) or if you can't pay, it takes 1D from an attribute or Force skill, permanently. This is espeically harsh, considering the rules say you only gain CP as a dark side character when you gain DSPs.

So, you're on the right track, I think, by desiring to make life difficult for them. I hope that you find one of these solutions helpful in that regard.

Krad-edis
10 January 2002, 09:27 PM
You may be able to get your dark sider to see the light by showing them power is not always strength. From what you have said, it seems like the two players (Light and Dark side) like to duel. Have them get into another one. Fix it to where both of them get similar injuries and both can no longer fight. Try to keep it where none of them get maimed too badly, but bad enough to where they will have to recooperate.

It has been a long time since I have read Shadows of the Empire, or really read through the D20 rules concerning Dark Side characters, but one thing that I do remember is that they both hint at Dark Side users having a hard time using light side powers, and in Vader's case "healing" powers. Actually, if you think about Vader and how Palpatine look, they really do look as if theyneed some help with healing. They appear to be falling apart, even though they are both strong in the Dark Side.

Here is where Darkstarr may begin to understand proper usage of the force.....
Have your Dark side user at a negative to heal himself.

While Virago is using Accelerate Healing to make a full recovery, Darkstarr is weakening himself further by spending extra character points and possibly force points making attempts to do the same thing. Perhaps Darkstarr will see that the Dark Side abandoned him when he needed it the most? Perhaps he will see that strength can be found in humility, atonement, and the light side? It is his choice to atone, and if he chooses not to do so, he might not be in very good shape to argue or fight with Virago when Virago comes to give him his last chance to come back to the light.

barna284
12 January 2002, 05:04 PM
He sounds like a real munchkin...generally, I NEVER let my chars toy with the DS. That does not mean they never get DSPīs; that they do a lot. But they constantly try to atone, and although Iīve had characters fall to the DS, not 1 of my players tried to play that sort of sick menage a deux with the LS and DS.

In short: punish the smarta$$, take his char or else

Krad-edis
13 January 2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by barna284
He sounds like a real munchkin...generally, I NEVER let my chars toy with the DS. That does not mean they never get DSPīs; that they do a lot. But they constantly try to atone, and although Iīve had characters fall to the DS, not 1 of my players tried to play that sort of sick menage a deux with the LS and DS.

In short: punish the smarta$$, take his char or else

Barna284,

How do you get a lot of DSPs while constantly trying to atone? Do you care to explain how that can be? Just a little confused at how they can be done together.

Jarv,

As a GM, it is very easy to punish, take away a character, or flat out kill them. However, even though it is the harder thing to do sometimes, it makes a more enjoyable story to have a player see their mistakes, correct them, and possibly teach and help others rise above similar issues. Darkstarr has potential to be a menace to the galaxy, but also the potential to be a great Jedi Knight. If he hasn't turned all the way over to the Dark Side, there is still much more hope for him than if he had already turned to the Dark Side. Keep trying to show him that he is wrong, and that if he does not attone, he will die. Try this for a few sessions. If he still wants to kill without reason...then you have reason to kill him off. Again, you really don't have to kill him off. It sounds like he will off himself. Present him with a target he won't be able to resist. Have this target be someone that outclasses him by far (he likes to duel, right?). He will have one last time to feel humility, or he will fall deeper into a rage. He can be saved or can be cut down like a rabid dog. His choice to choose the path...just your job to see through whatever path he chooses meets his destiny.

barna284
13 January 2002, 01:02 PM
"How do you get a lot of DSPs while constantly trying to atone? Do you care to explain how that can be? Just a little confused at how they can be done together. "

uhhhh...
me confused...
head hurts...

My characters GET DSPs because they some times commit acts against the Jedi Code; however, they always try to attone for their DSP`s; they know better than to toy with the DS.

next question

Krad-edis
13 January 2002, 02:09 PM
Where does it say players should get Dark Side Points for commiting acts against the Jedi Code? What about players who don't follow the Jedi Code at all...are they still bound to its rules? I think a lot of Force Adepts would have a problem if they got Dark Side points for not always going along with the Jedi Code.

The only thing I can see that lands people Dark Side points are evil acts or using the force while angry or hateful. (Check page 84 of the WEG 2nd Ed R&E). There are plenty of Force Users out there in the galaxy who don't even know what the Jedi Code is....and they certainly are not bound to it.

So do your characters commit evil acts and use the force improperly, or do they act in an unorthodox manner? (similar to Qui-Gonn Jinn). Qui-gonn didn't seem to be big fan of many of the Code's points.

My last point, and the thing I find the most confusing about your reasoning. If they are constantly having to attone..do they really know not to toy with the Dark Side? I would have to say not.

Superdog
13 January 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by barna284
My characters GET DSPs because they some times commit acts against the Jedi Code; however, they always try to attone for their DSP`s; they know better than to toy with the DS.

next question

You can't get DSP's just by breaking the code, unless you did evil while Breaking it. The Jedi Order and the Light Side of the Force are not the same thing.Anyway...
Have him recieve a vision by say, Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd or somesuch person of your own creation next time he goes to the darkside. They chat, this guy promises him great power and the like in exchange for the Dark Side. Charector agrees. Exact some horrible price.
Examples: Loss of use of legs.
Charector begins to rot as if he was a zombie of some kind.
Certain knowledge stripped from brain to be replaced with darkside stuff.
Once accepted, have the player make willpower (or whatever is appropriate) rolls on a regualr basis. A failed roll means the charector loses his charector to the GM for a set period of time.
When charector tries going back to lightside, have him meet with this charector that gave him his powers in a dream or vision. Bad guy commands charector to turn his back on the weak side of the force and be strong. If charector goes back to lightside, have the dark side exact another great punishment, the charector's death. His spirit is ripped violently from his body and subjected to horrible tortures for eternity, etc. That will both set and example and allow him chances to for him to actually redeem himself.

Darth Bile
14 January 2002, 06:16 AM
okay, according to the D6 system, everytime you get a darkside point, you roll 1D, if you equal or roll under the amount of darkside points, you go to the darkside, once you hit 6 darkside points, you character becomes consumed by the darkside and becomes an npc for you to use and harass the players with. And since you control him, you can now make him more powerful than he already is by giving him henchman, partners(if they see it that way, he wouldn't though) servants, slaves, gangs and stuff like that, and i would only give him one chance to atone through several adventures. Now, as for non force sensitive characters getting DSP's, it's a lot harder for them to get it than force sensitives, but, they can still get DSP's just by their actions like slave running, killing indiscrimatly(sp?) and stuff like that.

Troy Henist
14 January 2002, 07:08 AM
Here's an idea.

He gets a vision through the force or some other clue about a planet where is a lost Sith Libary. The journey there is dangerous but the reward is great.

The only catch is when he gets his reward he can't leave the library/planet depending how you feel. The price for the knowledge and power he has gained is to spend an eternity guarding this Sith Library until he is freed by the arrival of his replacement.

Obviously his character will immedialty become an NPC and governed by the GM now. If rest of the PC's went with him they will be whole world of trouble.

Form1
17 January 2002, 05:32 AM
(moving to General)

-Dave

Tony J Case, Super Genius
17 January 2002, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by jarv
any suggestions ? I'm wondering about killing him... in some duel, or some fight... and killing him not in the heroic way. but as far as I know, that won't make him understand... so I'm looking for other solutions.

Well, I support the 'punish him' suggestions that everyone else is coming up with - but I offer another angle on it.

Don't kill the character. Don't take the character away. Punish him in game. Other characters shun him. Armies of bounty hunters chase him down. Good Jedi show up every other game to remove this blemish in the Force. NPC's run in fear when they see him walking down the street. The counter clerk at Bantha Burgers cowers and begs for his life when he's buying a hamburger. Everywhere he turns, he finds another wanted poster with his face plastered on it.

In short - make him responsible for his actions.

Ping
18 January 2002, 03:21 AM
Sabre, I LOVE the idea of having them have to roll willpower vs. the dark side. I have a player right now whose character is rather down, and I really want to to tempt her, but the player knows not to toy with the DS, so I haven't been sure how to do this. I think I'm going to talk to her about the idea and see what she thinks. *rubs hands evilly*

B.I.P
19 January 2002, 10:59 PM
Ok try this bring in a npc for a short time who has been totally consumed in the dark side show have it tell him tells of failed atemps to attone for his crimes and the physical and mental cost of it . and let the npc be shown as alone full of regret and hate for him self . and show him die weak helpless and alone .

Jaden
21 January 2002, 08:59 PM
Some thing to look out for in the whole "let him go to the Darkside and take his character away" approach, the player is most likely a friend, just taking away his character could just cause hard feelings. Don't get me wrong I like the solution, but there are other things that need to be considered.

You might try talking things out with the player. Why is his character moving in this direction? What are the player's plans for the development of the character? Also explain to him that the way the character is going, he will become a GM character once he passes a certain point and the player with have to make a new character. Get the player to help solve the problem might work. If he wants to play a redemption, have him work with you on it. Though after you start the redemption storyline if the character isn't atoning you may have to take steps. If he's just looking for power, ask him if he realizes the path the character is on is the wrong one. I also like the letting him see someone who the darkside abandoned idea.

Just be careful in your approach, it is after all a game, no point in losing friendships over a game. Heavy handiness is a tool that should only be used when absolutely necessary. I'm sure there will be a multitude of idea on the board here for story ideas to help solve the problem too. But i think you need to identify where the problem lies first, with the player or merely in the character.

Sabre
22 January 2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Ping
Sabre, I LOVE the idea of having them have to roll willpower vs. the dark side. I have a player right now whose character is rather down, and I really want to to tempt her, but the player knows not to toy with the DS, so I haven't been sure how to do this. I think I'm going to talk to her about the idea and see what she thinks. *rubs hands evilly*

Glad you approve. That's exactly the reason why, in my opinion, it ought to come down to a willpower roll. The PLAYER may know better, but the character is facing temptation, and the way to beat temptation is with willpower. While the player is controlling the character, the player won't always do things they know will hurt the character for the sake of role playing. At that point, I feel it is reasonable for a GM to intervene and make it more complicated than 'just say no'.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
22 January 2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Sabre


Glad you approve. That's exactly the reason why, in my opinion, it ought to come down to a willpower roll. The PLAYER may know better, but the character is facing temptation, and the way to beat temptation is with willpower. While the player is controlling the character, the player won't always do things they know will hurt the character for the sake of role playing. At that point, I feel it is reasonable for a GM to intervene and make it more complicated than 'just say no'.

I do say that I support the idea that willpower somehow figures into the Dark Side usage / fall / redemption. If the Jedi are masters of mind, body and spirit, then it makes no sense for a character to only have 3D willpower when they have 9D CS&A. My standing house rule (more of a guideline, really) is that the willpower must be kept as high as the rest of the Force powers - or at least within a pip or two of them.

(In that same mindset, I also think that it makes sense that stamina should be within a die or two of the Force dice - but I digress)
However, I do disagree (kind of) that the player will avoid actions that are to the determent of the character. There's been several times where I've willingly taken a DSP because that's what should happen. The character was acting very much out of fear, and even though all the other players at the table went "WHAT?!?", I thought it was very appropriate at the time.

I wonder if I'm the oddball, or if that's more common that you might think.