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Fab
18 January 2002, 05:57 PM
Starships of the Galaxy (for the d20 system) says that subspace transceivers can send signals over a few dozen light years, and that hyperspace transceivers are like subspace transceivers except they transmit into hyperspace. It notes that such transmissions can experience significant lag time.

What is significant? Are we talking about a few minutes from one side of the galaxy to the other? A few hours? Days? Couple of weeks? What is considered significant?

I didn't know if the d6 rules mentioned anything about it. If not, does anyone know from EU sources (in which I am not well versed) or house rules they use?

Normally I wouldn't mind, but I'm running a campaign where the PCs' nemesis is operating from a planet 3 days away by hyperspace (with a 1.0 hyperdrive). The lag time involved could be pivotal.

Personally, I would think that hyperspace transceivers would take about the same time as a trip through hyperspace would, so if that were the case a hypertransmission would take 3 days to get from one planet to the other. Does that sound reasonable?

But of course, using that same logic a subspace transmission going the "few dozen lightyears" as mentioned in the core rulebook would take a few dozen years to get where it's going, which also doesn't seem reasonable . . . at all.

Chris Curtis
18 January 2002, 06:12 PM
Well, I really can't speak about how hyperspace tranceivers work "officially" (I'm not sure there is an official word on the subject). In our own campaign, though, we play it that the transmissions are virtually instantaneous. In this way, our characters can make real-time progress reports to command/headquarters as well as get information from them.

But as with most things, I'd just suggest that you use whatever will work best for your game. If a short (or lengthy) delay would be beneficial for you as the GM, then by all means say that there's a delay. OTOH, if it doesn't matter or if speedy transmission is needed, then say that it is instantaneous or with very little delay (a few seconds or a couple of minutes delay).

Fab
18 January 2002, 06:23 PM
Sounds good. If there is no "official" figures for it, I think I'll go with comms being speed of light which shouldn't matter as it's for short range use, so the max delay would be maybe a minute or two. Subspace transmissions I'll go with one minute delay per light year covered. Not that it matters in this campaign (yet) but it might. For hyperspace transmissions I am going to go with one tenth of the time you could make the trip with a x1 hyperdrive. I do want some delay, otherwise I feel we'll lose the suspense of delayed communications.

Thanks for the input. Of course any other house rules are welcome.

Lokar
18 January 2002, 06:59 PM
I'd base it on the 'live video feed' of present day communication, modified for the vast distance of space.I would say that communication between sectors at roughly 2-3 minutes. A communication from the Deep Core to the Outer Rim would take something closer to 10 minutes. The distance you mentioned would have a lag of a couple of seconds, maybe a minute if there happns to some be an ion storm in the area.

Gulmyros
18 January 2002, 08:20 PM
I can't give you an exact number... but I think that hyperspace transmissions should be faster than a x1 hyperdrive.

Basically, if you're in realspace, your transmissions go faster than your ship. So in hyperspace, I'd rule the same thing. After all, I didn't see much in the way of lag when Vader and the Emperor were talking in ESB.

Off the top of my head, maybe divide the hyperspace trip duration by 100. So a 2 day trip (again, at x1 hyperdrive) might have a delay of just under 29 minutes. Hmmm... that still seems a bit long to me. Maybe divide by 1000?

That makes a 2 day trip lag by just under 3 minutes. And a week's journey could be contacted with a 10 minute lag. Cross the galaxy... even longer.

Still, tho, the holonet and hyperspace communications should be the BEST, FASTEST way to get information to and from place to place. If the information didn't go any faster than some ships could travel and carry messages in the first place - I don't think Palpy would have been so severe in his restriction of the HoloNet to the military.

My two creds, anyway.

:)

Gully

Durian Keldrona
21 January 2002, 09:17 AM
Well in the Movies Darth Sidious was able to have a normal Conversation via the Holonet from Naboo to Coruscunt. I know Coruscunt is in the core and Naboo out on the rim.

Rigil Kent
21 January 2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Durian Keldrona
Well in the Movies Darth Sidious was able to have a normal Conversation via the Holonet from Naboo to Coruscunt. I know Coruscunt is in the core and Naboo out on the rim.

But the HoloNet and hypertranceivers are not the same.

I like Gulmyros' idea and will probably use it; the only thing I'd add is that to use such a tranceiver, you're going to need relay satellites or something. As long as there are a couple of the sats between here and there, the message should get through (although you'd still have to factor in lag time and all that.)

Hmmm...wonder if there is a real scientific way to figure this out...

kermit
21 January 2002, 04:23 PM
the technology behind the holonet and hypertransceivers is essentially the same, bu the reason the holonet can provide instantaneous holographic communication is the network of automated relay stations spread throughout space - many of these stations are destroyed during the rise of the empire to prevent communications

hypertransceivers therefore dont generally use holgrams (more info to send) except over shorter ranges, but can still allow instantaneous communications over a couple of sectors (say to fleet command)

most ISD's are equiped with holonet gear, as are diplomatic posts, seats of government, etc.

the holonet is very expensive, both initially and with ongoing costs, where as hypertransceivers just have the initial cost (which is still higher than subspace comms)

for those familiar with the mechwarrior universe, the holonet is similar to the hyperpulse network

Durian Keldrona
21 January 2002, 04:31 PM
That Makes sense Kermit. Do you think that a Hypertransmitter would be able to connect to the Holonet or does that require special equipment?

Fab
21 January 2002, 04:43 PM
If hypertransmissions are fast, then the Holonet loses its importance. If a message can make a 2 day jump (with a x1 drive) in only a few minutes, then what makes the Holonet so important? I know it can send more information, faster, but is it really that big of a step up?

I would like to think that hypertransmissions are slow and lag enough behind real time to make something that is real time, or close to it, vitally important.

Maybe one minute of lag for each hour with an x1 drive. So a message sent over a path that would be a 2 day trip would take 48 minutes. It seems slow, but it's actually very fast, but not nearly as good as the Holonet. Fast enough to get a message back and forth a few times in a day so that two people could carry on a limited conversation, but still enough of a lag to make it not viable for military purposes (a lot can happen in an hour), which is a gap the Holonet could fill.

kermit
21 January 2002, 06:47 PM
Durian: i figure that in their standard froms, the equipment would just be more advanced with holonet, and include the addition of a "black box" that would allow access to the relay station network (like cable set top boxes...sort of...)

Fab: holonet is the sort of thing used by the galactic media orgs, military and government communications, whereas the hypertransceivers are used for more general, but local, communications.
hypertransceivers have a short range (say a couple of sectors) over which it works well, but beyond that the signal drops of very quickly, making it useless for communications any further

Chris Curtis
21 January 2002, 07:49 PM
Regarding hyperspace tranceivers, the holonet, and how they are or are not related...

I don't know what the official word on the subject is, but I've always thought that the two things were related. I always figured that hyperspace transceivers were simply used to basically "log in" to the holonet remotely.

Normally, the holonet would be accessible from a planet or such since they would have the holonet relay satellites. Using a hyperspace tranceiver, though, a ship near a holonet accessible star system could use the transceiver to hook into the holonet.

Now, most likely the "bandwidth" available for the transceiver wouldn't be nearly as great as for the regular holonet. Because of that, perhaps only 2D vid, or even only voice transmissions, are used instaed of the more normal full holographic transmissions. Also, the equipment needed to be able to remotely hook into the holonet would almost certainly be large, complex, and prohibitively expensive -- which would explain why only larger military or government type ships normally carry them.

Anyway, that's my take on how the two systems could be related as well as why you'd still have both systems around. YMMV...

Gulmyros
21 January 2002, 08:03 PM
Here's a relevant bit from the Imperial Sourcebook:
During the time of the Old Rebublic, there wa a HoloNet which transmitted information throughout the constituent worlds. The HoloNet was extremely expensive to maintain, but it provided the Republic with a sophisticated, flexible means of communication. Consisting of hundreds of thousands of non-mass transceivers connected through a vast matrix of coordinated hyperspace S-threads (popularly known as Simu-Tunnels), as well as the computing power to sort and decode all of the information, the HoloNet was the only method available for real-time holographic transmissions between worlds.

It was horrendously expensive to maintain... But it did connect the constituent worlds, giving a sense of belonging to the average citizen.

Smaller commercial concerns and individuals never used the HoloNet directly; they relied on the literally millions of traders who traveled the commerce corridors of the Old Republic.

Soon after Palpatine assumed the throne he dismantled the HoloNet, achieving two objectives. First, he made it difficult for any foes not in the Senate to coordinate any resistance to his designs. Any individual system, no matter how wealthy or influential, could easily be crushed by the Empire. Second, the constituent worlds were used to absorbing the cost of the HoloNet, ... This gave the Emperor an enormous flow of credits with which to initate the rapid build up of Imperial forces, manning and outfitting more troops in the first six months of his reign than the Republic had ever mobilized at any one time.

Governor Tarkin urged the Emperor to reinstitute HoloNet technology on a much smaller scale, for use by the Imperial Navy only, and then only at the level of the Sector Group. This proposal was made in a transmission to the Emperor which outlined a plan for ruling the Empire with an economy of force. The Emperor approved of the plan, awarding Tarkin Grand Moff status for his efforts. This plan soon became known, unofficially, as the Tarkin Doctrine.So I'm looking at it like the HoloNet is FedEx, and using hyperspace transcivers is more akin to driving the package to the destination in your own car - you'll get there, but at a time lag. You see, it's those non-mass tranceivers and the network of S-Threads that route HoloNet signals quickly and efficiently. Without them you're just aiming your comm and pulling the trigger.

Now, my last post was a guestimated lag for HoloNet signals. My apologies for not being entirely clear. But given this bit I just looked up, I'd make HoloNet signals even faster, and slow down the generic hyperspace transceiver even more than what I suggested.

Like Fab was suggesting, the HoloNet should be the End-All-Be-All of comm systems, and the others should be slower. Maybe go back to dividing the x1 duration by 100. Reaching the next starsystem over might only take you 30 minutes (which is still darn fast) but you'd still have to send, then wait, then wait again for a response (if any), then reply, then wait.... and so on.

If you think 100 is still too fast, then try 50. *shrug* Play with it until you find something that you like, then write it down somewhere and make it an official house rule, and stick to it.

:)

Gully

Durian Keldrona
22 January 2002, 10:22 AM
The new Rebellion Era Source Book has some info to saying the in a lot of ways the Holonet is like our internet. When i get home i'll read over it and post the relevant info.

Mayhem
24 January 2002, 08:57 AM
Everything that has been said is great as far as setting up house rules and that's all well and good, but almost none of it jives with the fact that Darthy orders the Star Destroyer out of the asteroid field to get better reception when Palpy calls. And make no mistake, I doubt very much that Palpy-baby was only a sector or two away from Bespin or Hoth, when his seat of command is a LOOONNNGGG way away back in the core.

So having said that we must consider that the Holonet is much more powerful than Gulmyros or anyone else is saying. It is instantaneous/ real-time communications. Blatantly disregarding the laws of physics, as the Star Wars universe is wont to do, but there it is. It is in the hands of the few, not the many. Which begs the question, great if you have a holonet machine, but if no one else does, who do you talk to? The Rebel P.C's send a message to Rebel HQ saying that 5 Star Destroyers are heading their way and that Rebel HQ should evacuate. If there is no way for the message to be decoded, or read, the Rebel HQ gets obliterated.


Governor Tarkin urged the Emperor to reinstitute HoloNet technology on a much smaller scale, for use by the Imperial Navy only, and then only at the level of the Sector Group. This proposal was made in a transmission to the Emperor which outlined a plan for ruling the Empire with an economy of force. The Emperor approved of the plan, awarding Tarkin Grand Moff status for his efforts. This plan soon became known, unofficially, as the Tarkin Doctrine.

Just as a side note, the Tarkin Doctrine (as mentioned in the D6 WEG)
was actually about controlling the outer lying systems through fear.
First the Star Destroyers, then the Death Star. The Holonet was simply the means by which the coordination of subjugation of a 1000 thousand worlds could be achieved with an economy of effort. Nice grab though.

Random Axe
24 January 2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Mayhem
Everything that has been said is great as far as setting up house rules and that's all well and good, but almost none of it jives with the fact that Darthy orders the Star Destroyer out of the asteroid field to get better reception when Palpy calls. And make no mistake, I doubt very much that Palpy-baby was only a sector or two away from Bespin or Hoth, when his seat of command is a LOOONNNGGG way away back in the core.
So what we can conclude from that scene in ESB, is that the Holonet allowed the Emperor to contact the SSD Executor in real time, where he "...commands that you make contact with him." However, the asteroid field appeared to interfere with the transmission, so Vader moved the ship out of the field where he could send a clear (Holo) transmission. But again, the conversation with his master was in real time with no lag.

Take now the scenes from Phantom Menace, where Darth Sidious conducted several realtime conversations from Coruscant to Naboo, again in realtime with no appreciable lag. This tells me the Holonet in the Rebellion Era is fully controlled by the Empire and allows for instantaneous communications across the galaxy. In the Republic era of Phantom Menace, again the Holonet allows instant communication, in the hands of the few, the rich, the politically powerful. Mayhem, should your PC get his hands on one, guess what, the only one you can talk to is an Imperial minion.

So the discussion now turns to something ASIDE from the Holonet, which is inaccessible to our PCs, to something like "Hypertransmission" which will allow for communications across the galaxy at a much lesser rate of speed and reliability than the Holonet. And again, the power and cost of such a system would logically restrict it, IMO, to the fewer, the richer, and the politically powerful but not necessarily controlled or puppeted by the Empire. Still relatively powerful though, so my question is, should a hypertranceiver be available on a PC's ship? Capital ships only? What restrictions would be in place for a GM?

Then I think there's also a third level, subspace communications, which is standard ship-to-ship radio, with a range probably about equal to the geometric area of a planetary system.

At least, that's my take on it.:p

Gulmyros
24 January 2002, 09:40 AM
Everything that has been said is great as far as setting up house rules and that's all well and good, but almost none of it jives with the fact that Darthy orders the Star Destroyer out of the asteroid field to get better reception when Palpy calls. And make no mistake, I doubt very much that Palpy-baby was only a sector or two away from Bespin or Hoth, when his seat of command is a LOOONNNGGG way away back in the core.You are correct about the effectiveness of the HoloNet. That's not what Fab started the thread for, unfortunately. In the new starships book there's apparently TWO com systems that utilize hyperspace technology to make their transmissions: 1) HoloNet transceivers, and 2) hyperspace transceivers.

Now when I first read Fab's question about hyperspace transceivers I assumed he was talking about the HoloNet, since I don't have that book. But since his book/post mentioned a lag, I tried to figure out what that could be, and still keep it reasonable.

As I've now learned (from a friend who DOES have the book) they are two separate things. And while the HoloNet does not have a lag time, hyperspace transceivers do. So THAT's what we've been trying to estimate a delay for.

Summary:

- HoloNet is FAST. Real-time audio/video/holo communication over any distance on the net.
- Hyperspace transceiver is QUICK. Distance is a factor in lag time of communication. Time taken to reach destination is 1% or 2% (divide by 100 or 50, whichever you like better) of hyperspace travel with a x1 hyperdrive.

That's the best I can do for you right now. :)
Just as a side note, the Tarkin Doctrine (as mentioned in the D6 WEG)
was actually about controlling the outer lying systems through fear.
First the Star Destroyers, then the Death Star. The Holonet was simply the means by which the coordination of subjugation of a 1000 thousand worlds could be achieved with an economy of effort. Nice grab though.Thanks. But note that I'm quoting a d6 WEG book, the 2nd edition Imperial Sourcebook, to be precise. In that book is Tarkin's entire plan which became known as the Tarkin Doctrine. It includes:
the formation of Oversectors - geographically independent, hotspots of Rebel activity
place a single individual in control of an Oversector, reporting directly to the Emperor
cannibalize the existing HoloNet transceivers and modify them for use
put HoloNet transceivers in the flagship of every Sector Group in an Oversector command
place similar facilities withing the Emperor's command ship and within Imperial City
rule through the fear of force rather than force itself
create a superweapon with sheer size and strength to eliminate an entire system at once
let that superweapon (or multiple if needed) become the symbol of the Empire's strength to the common citizen
The Doctrine was many things, but like so many of our own political bills/laws/acts, they get recognized for the single biggest point in the list. I had always assumed that Tarkin's bit was all about 'rule through fear' as well until I came across the whole thing and had it spelled out so precisely.

Anyway, that's not what this is about. Hyperspace transceivers. I think we've at least come close to something usable by Fab and anyone else who needs adequate math to calculate lag time for this beastie.

:)

Gully

kermit
24 January 2002, 01:46 PM
as i said in my previous post, both the holonet and hypertransceivers use similar technology, but the holonet is actually a network of relay stations that allow communication to be realtime, and also makes it cost heaps

as for uses, the governments, military and big corporations

as for ESB, it would appear that the transmissions made through either holonet or hypertransmissions can be blocked. in the thrawn trilogy, there is a comment about the sheilds of ISDs blocking holographic transmissions

Durian Keldrona
24 January 2002, 11:01 PM
During the Clone Wars, large portions of the Holonet were damaged or put out of commision. The vast network of trancievers had also fallen into disrepair as corrupt senators diverted funds for maintaining them into their pockets. the emporere ordered the shutdown of large portions of the holonet.


the holonet tranceivers in civilian hands were confiscated. Laws were passed restricting access to the holonet, and media outlets were controlled.