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Mad Tech
4 February 2002, 03:42 PM
According to the rules on page 157-158 in the CR (SWd20), a non-force sensitive character cannot call upon the dark side. Therefore, regardless of their intention of doing good or evil, they still roll the fewer number of d6 than force users. Do any of you other GMs out there feel differently about this? Why can't a non-force sensitive character who has already earned a few DSPs call upon the dark side? Do any of you GMs out there allow this?

Mad Tech

Darth Bile
5 February 2002, 06:13 AM
is this for the D6 system or the D20 system?? because if it's the D6 system, non-force sensitive characters can call on the dark side, all they need to do is roll their perception, they still get dark side points for doing that though, and their difficulty is one or two levels higher, and as for the D20 system, i don't know that game since i've never played it and after reading the rules, don't want to play it.

BrianDavion
5 February 2002, 07:32 AM
non-force sensitives not calling the the dark side is fine, fact is that non-force sensitives are and SHOULD be SEVERLY handicapped compared to force users.

BrianDavion
5 February 2002, 07:33 AM
ohh, also I don't interpret the force points for non-force sensitives as being so much the force as "luck"

to give a decent comparison, think of it like burning an edge point in MW3rd

DirkGreystoke
5 February 2002, 09:21 PM
I think this is a good rule. How would a character that cannot access the force call upon the dark side anyways? However, you can still gain DSPs by doing evil acts. This way a character can still become evil if a PC wants him too.

Gulmyros
5 February 2002, 09:31 PM
Similar thinking.

I figure if you're not Force Sensitive, how are you calling on anything consciously? I look at it as extra concentration, luck, or whatever you want to justify the spending of a Force Point by a non-FS character.

But the fact that they are not FS prevents them from controlling which side they call on. Look to their actions to tell you how they're using the Force. Spend a Force Point to save the Princess from certain doom is different than spend a Force Point so you can strafe an entire villiage...

The non-FS character can still spend the FP however they like, and DSPs are always an option if the situation warrants it.

Wade Trenor
6 February 2002, 03:33 AM
But the fact that they are not FS prevents them from controlling which side they call on.

You've read my mind. The bonus they get isn't necessarily light or dark, since the Force simply is.

Anyway, I don't think a character could get an additional Dark Side point for doing evil actions while using a Force Point because the Dark Side would have no real hold over them like it would the Force Users, who can call on it more frequently, and become reliant on it.

Matt Richard
6 February 2002, 02:22 PM
Personally (Im probably the only one that thinks this), I feel that Non-Force Sensitive people can not only not call on the Dark Side, but cannot earn dark side points simply for the fact that (this is hard to explain)... they dont know what they are doing.

How to explain...
In my opinion, a DSP should be given on two conditions:
1.) The act performed is hidious in any way.
2.) The intent of the player is to committ evil, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT WHAT IS BEING DONE IS EVIL.

So let's say that a Jedi willing takes revenge on the people that killed his parents.
His acts are hidious (he took the law in his own hands, and he broke the Jedi Code), and his intent was to committ this wrong, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT WHAT HE WAS DOING WAS WRONG.

Now let's look at it from a Scoundrel's or someone who is not Forse Sensitive. You take revenge on the people that killed the parents.
The act is hidious (it's murder), and his intent was to committ wrong, BUT, he did not know that the act was evil, he thought it was a right of duty to avenge his parents.

So basically, if you dont know right from wrong, you cant be held accountable for doing wrong. If i was GMing these situations, the Jedi would get a DSP, BUT NOT the Non-Force Sensitive player.

Therefore, I believe that Non-Force Sensitive players cannot call on the Dark Side, but when they use the "Light Side Dice," they are pretty much relying on luck. If they are restricted to using "Light Side Dice," then they MUST be restricted to Force Points.

BrianDavion
6 February 2002, 08:53 PM
sides, in a way a PC on the dark side without force sensitivity is even worse since it means he has likely commited a lot more evil acts

Oly
7 February 2002, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Matt Richard

In my opinion, a DSP should be given on two conditions:
1.) The act performed is hidious in any way.
2.) The intent of the player is to committ evil, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT WHAT IS BEING DONE IS EVIL.

So let's say that a Jedi willing takes revenge on the people that killed his parents.
His acts are hidious (he took the law in his own hands, and he broke the Jedi Code), and his intent was to committ this wrong, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT WHAT HE WAS DOING WAS WRONG.

Now let's look at it from a Scoundrel's or someone who is not Forse Sensitive. You take revenge on the people that killed the parents.
The act is hidious (it's murder), and his intent was to committ wrong, BUT, he did not know that the act was evil, he thought it was a right of duty to avenge his parents.

So basically, if you dont know right from wrong, you cant be held accountable for doing wrong. If i was GMing these situations, the Jedi would get a DSP, BUT NOT the Non-Force Sensitive player.

Don't agree with that at all, the Scoundrel may well realises what he's doing or done is evil but that doesn't matter, he's not liable to the pull of the darkside.

On the other hand whether or not the Jedi realises that what he's done is wrong we (the omnipotent GM) knows that it is and will give the DSP. If you require the Jedi to know it was evil then you open the door to all sorts of complicated debates on when is it neccessary to act in a manner that in normal situations we might deem evil. That's grey, Star Wars isn't like that, Star Wars is Black and White, Good and Evil, Right and Wrong.

You're probably going to see some of this covered in SW Episodes 2 and 3. I don't believe that Anakin knowingly engages in evil, he's put in bad positions and makes poor decisions. We'll no doubt see him justify whatever he does and being unable to see the evil and harm in it. Did that make him immune to the Dark Side? As sure as there's an asthmatic guy in Black armour in parts 4 to 6 no way.

Alternatively a force sensitive grows up on a world where evil is an everyday occurence, it's the way the world works. When he commits acts of evil, say killing the murderers of his parents like in your example, does he avoid the DSP because he can't and won't percieve it as evil? Of course not, he's falling.

In my opinion breaking the Jedi Code alone doesn't give you a DSP either. The comment from Obi-Wan in Episode 1 seems to imply that Qui-Gonn broke it frequently yet a good guy he most definately was. The Jedi Code isn't a guide to the rules of the light side of the force, rather it indoctrines into it's followers a mind set and attitude that makes it easier to identify and avoid the temptations that lead to the dark side.

I also believe that that is why Anakin is going to be a problem, Jedi normally grow up with the Jedi Code from childhood and through it learn to control their emotions (anger, fear etc. etc.) and thus be strong in the face of the Dark Side. Anakin doesn't have that, doesn't have the control and it's that that brings about the fall.

Regards,

Oly

Matt Richard
7 February 2002, 06:40 PM
I agree that a DSP should not be awarded for braking the code BUT the Jedi Code specifically states what the actions of a Jedi should be.

You said:

If you require the Jedi know that it was evil, you open the door for debates.

That's not necissarily true. BECAUSE of the fact that the JEDI CODE says in some words that you never act out in anger (something about never attacking, but defending). If a Jedi player cant realize the fact that getting revenge on his parents deaths is an act of anger, then that player should probably not be playing a Jedi, because if you plan to play a Jedi, you SHOULD know the Jedi Code, and act as a Jedi should. In the example I gave, there is no room for debate, and if the Jedi follows the code, there will never be room for debate.

On the other hand, the non-force sensitive character has no code to live by, except in his own standards, therefore cannot be held accountable for the act he does of getting revenge for his parents. He does not know that what he is doing is evil, BUT THE JEDI DOES, therefore, the Jedi gets a DSP, the non-force sensitive doesnt

So like I said before:
Not only cant the non-force sensitive player call on the force, but the player cant recieve DSP's either.

BrianDavion
7 February 2002, 08:21 PM
so not knowing what you are doing is evil is what seperates someone from the lightside and the dark? that is hard to really justify because all evil people belived what they where doing was right... I mean, let's face it, only bad guys in B movies know and belive they are evil.

Lord Diggori
8 February 2002, 06:54 AM
In my games I dont allow non-FS to call on the darkside, cause I run the DS like a seductive entity representing power addiction.
FS may call on the darkside cause their abilities are a vehicle to almost ultimate power if they continue unrestrained and selfishly. You know that whole thing about absolute power corrupts absolutely. Non-FS have miniscule access to this power so why would the darkside seek them. They may even be a sector dictator with lots of power but it all pales to what the darkside offers: evil intent weaved into the fabric of reality, i.e. true power.

In additon I let my non-FS PC's get away with less moral actions cause they dont have survival advantages that FS do. If a bunch of thugs are gonna kill you and you cant do Friendship, Affect Mind, or Force Stealth you'll likely have to give up the moral high ground just get out in one piece. If the Rodian is threatening to take your money and your ship when you TRY to bargain to no avail, its OK to blast him first (despite Special Edition changes ;) )

Lord Diggori
8 February 2002, 07:05 AM
I dont let non-FS go scot-free with tons of DSPs though. I have them begin to form compulsions that require a Will save to resist: DC equals # of DSPs + 10; for tainted +15, for darksider +20. The more the save is failed by the more sick the compulsion.

Example, Tarkin as a Captain landed a light cruiser on a bunch of protestors to show the new Empire's power. After years of this kind of stuff Grand Moff Tarkin needs to destroy Alderaan prove the same point.

Matt Richard
8 February 2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
so not knowing what you are doing is evil is what seperates someone from the lightside and the dark? that is hard to really justify because all evil people belived what they where doing was right... I mean, let's face it, only bad guys in B movies know and belive they are evil.

Everyone believes they are right because they live by the standards that they have set for themselves. in my example, BY THE STANDARDS HE HAS SET FOR HIMSELF, he is justifyed in taking revenge on his parents deaths. A Jedi has set a standard not to act in revenge, therefore breaks his standard.

Now in an example where a person, force sensitive or not, does something that is AGAINST THEIR STANDARD, then if it meets the gm's critirea for a DSP, then a DSP should be awarded.

This is why it is so vital to get players to write backgrounds and personalities for their characters. It will help the gm determine the moral standard that the player has set for his/herself.

Mayhem
8 February 2002, 03:29 PM
Matt Richard has said it! If your characters have backgrounds in detail, the GM should be able to tailor make situations for them. Awards and penaities are far mroe interesting when they're based on how the Character acted(based on his/her background), as opposed to rules in a book that can't possibly hope to cover every situation that arises.

HOWEVER... This is not to say that a character can't grow. We all grow, we change; attitudes we held as children or teens change when we're in our twenties. Change is life and life is change. But a char who comes from some cyber-punk dirthole of a planet where survival was paramount, is not suddenly going to embrace the Rebellion(or indeed any authority entity you choose), but rather is going to test the limits and boundaries of the situation. The char in question is probably going to be more comfortable amongst Pirates, as opposed to the strictures and rigid rules of the Rebels or the Empire.

In my Star Wars group, evil acts are awarded DSP's.Whether it's wanton rape, murder or Me are all acts like those would be awarded with a DSP,(so far we've either been lucky or just not stupid enough to do anything like the above) regardless of char backgorund. We have a mix of F Users and NON-FUsers. Evil is evil. Granted your background determines where you stand on that line but as stated before, Star Wars is Black and white. Not grey, even though my group does have a lot of Grey Side pts.
of the character:D

Oly
11 February 2002, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Matt Richard
That's not necissarily true. BECAUSE of the fact that the JEDI CODE says in some words that you never act out in anger (something about never attacking, but defending). If a Jedi player cant realize the fact that getting revenge on his parents deaths is an act of anger, then that player should probably not be playing a Jedi, because if you plan to play a Jedi, you SHOULD know the Jedi Code, and act as a Jedi should. In the example I gave, there is no room for debate, and if the Jedi follows the code, there will never be room for debate.

The breaking of the Jedi Code is not the reason for the Dark Side Point, the reason for the DSP is that he's acting of of anger. The Jedi Code happens to agree with that and he is indeed breaking it but that's another matter.

Yes all Jedi should know the Jedi Code and should act within it, however they obviously don't as the Qui-Gon example shows.

You can break the Jedi Code and not get a DSP, it should also be possible to not break the Jedi Code and still get a DSP. The Jedi Code is not a law book of what is and what isn't "Dark Side", it's the Jedi's method of avoiding the Dark Side and it may very well not be perfect.


On the other hand, the non-force sensitive character has no code to live by, except in his own standards, therefore cannot be held accountable for the act he does of getting revenge for his parents. He does not know that what he is doing is evil, BUT THE JEDI DOES, therefore, the Jedi gets a DSP, the non-force sensitive doesnt


The awarding of DSPs has nothign what so ever to do with being held accountable (to yourself or others) or knowing what you do is evil. In the SW Universe some actions are evil regardless of whether the person making them is aware of it or will try to argue otherwise.

As I've said the Jedi gets a DSP because he acts out of anger, if he's aware of that or not it doesn't matter, if he thinks it wrong or not it doesn't matter. The Dark Side may even trick him into thinking that it's not wrong, this doesn't matter DSP's should be given.

Imagine a Force Sensitive growing up without the Jedi Code. He grows up in an environment akin to Nazi Germany (just using an example that we should all be aware of). He's indoctrined into the equivalent of the Hitler Youth and recieves the sort of upbringing you can probably imagine that that entails. He's then sent to a battle front and uses his force powers to capture and kill civilians. He doesn't know that he's doing wrong, in fact he thinks he's doing right and protecting his race. Those he kills are "clearly" sub-human and desperate times call for harsh measures, he's the good guy out there.

Does this character avoid getting DSPs? He's living by his own standards, he's breaking no code that he should be following and he does not know that what he's doing his evil. I'm sure we agree that DSP's should be awarded.

Knowing or not knowing, code or no code, held accountable or not this matters nothing. Evil is evil (at least in Star Wars).

Regards,

Oly

Matt Richard
11 February 2002, 08:29 AM
Well, you have made a good point Oly. But, I guess that means ive been playing the DSP's wrong all along, and I guess it really comes down as to what YOU believe merits a DSP. I will continue to play by the rules I have outlined (even if they are wrong).

In response to the Nazi example you gave, I would not give the DSP to the kid, because his intentions are all for the good, and he is living by the standard that has been set for him.

Youll notice i said SET FOR HIM. The people who crafted this standard for him, knowing it was an evil standard would be the ones who would get the DSP according to my DSP rules.

Now one may ask, what about a kid who is trained in the ways of the Dark Jedi? There is a simple answer, the kid being trained knows fully well that he is doing is wrong (we cant debate it, on the SW Ep. 1 DVD on the tv spots section, Darth Maul is quoting that fear is his ally, so obviously he knows that what he does for a living is evil).

BrianDavion
11 February 2002, 08:47 AM
yes but 99% of dark jedis don't embrace the dark side, it sort of sneaks up on em... mostdon't REALIZE that they are acting wrongly.

when I award dark side points I play "judge jury and executioner" and I tend to follow the oldest rule in the book "ignorance of the law is NOT an excuse"

ikf you commit an evil act, not matter how IC it is, you'll gain a DSP, because, let's face it, if evil acts are IC, your char is clearly evil.

you can't play a Bad Jedi but get to stick on the Lightside, it doesn't work that way

Oly
13 February 2002, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Matt Richard
But, I guess that means ive been playing the DSP's wrong all along, and I guess it really comes down as to what YOU believe merits a DSP. I will continue to play by the rules I have outlined (even if they are wrong).

I don't know about "wrong", we don't have a canon defination of what is and what isn't the darkside. What I base my point of view on is the fact that Star Wars is meant to be a very black and white universe with evil villains and good heroes.


Originally posted by Matt Richard
In response to the Nazi example you gave, I would not give the DSP to the kid, because his intentions are all for the good, and he is living by the standard that has been set for him.

Youll notice i said SET FOR HIM. The people who crafted this standard for him, knowing it was an evil standard would be the ones who would get the DSP according to my DSP rules.

Now one may ask, what about a kid who is trained in the ways of the Dark Jedi? There is a simple answer, the kid being trained knows fully well that he is doing is wrong (we cant debate it, on the SW Ep. 1 DVD on the tv spots section, Darth Maul is quoting that fear is his ally, so obviously he knows that what he does for a living is evil).

What's the difference in being trained as Dark Jedi and being trained as a Nazi force user? Both are aware that there are alternatives to their ways of life but both would view those as "soft". Both could say that their way is the right way for the universe and that they're only playing along with nature (and the will of the force) by ensuring the surivial of the strong over the weak.

I would say there's a big difference between knowing that you use fear and believing that you're evil. Picture soliders being trained in bayonetting people, their taught to scream and shout as they charge. Sure as hell they're trying to put fear into their target, do they believe that they're evil, I'd say no.

Many special forces (Maul can be considered a special forces member I guess) recognise the value of fear and try to play upon their reputation to achieve it. The Gurkha's and the stories about their knives or the even the mention of the SAS in a hostage situation being enough to make the hostage takers give up are examples of the application of fear. They may view their use of fear as a bit unpleasant but they'd say that the end justifies the means and that they are not evil.

Following the logic this would mean that Maul shouldn't be a Dark Sider as he'd claim he's not evil. That is obviously false. Various expanded Universe books have alluded to Mauls background and training, it sounds like Sidious put him through hell and has twisted Maul's mind and values to produe the ultimate obidiant Sith Warrior. Maul lives by the standards set for him by Sidious and according to the upbringing forced upon him by Sidious. Does that make Maul immune to the Dark Side? Once again obviously not.

Regards,

Oly

Matt Richard
13 February 2002, 05:49 PM
There is a big difference between being trained in the ways of the Nazi ways, and the dark side. Nazi's were told that what they were doing were right, they were the best and no one could stop them.
Dark Siders are taught that what they believe is in fact the Dark Side (bad side) of the Force, only they are taught that they can use that bad towards their own selfish wants.

Gulmyros
13 February 2002, 08:00 PM
I believe that DSPs come from the Force. And that the Force has its own definition of Good and Bad.

Societies have their own rules. These are sometimes independent of how the Force works.

It's possible that a society believes that murder and rape and so on are legitimate, correct and propper ways to behave and achieve greatness.

The Force probably does not.

So, walk down the street. See a 5 year old orphan boy on the street, dirty clothes, scrounging for food. Now, pull out a blaster and shoot him without a second thought. Sure, that was the legal thing to do. After all, orphan beggars are a blight on society. They waste resources that could be better spent. It's your civic duty to rid the streets of these pitiful vermin to promote a better world.

But the Force cares not for local planetary laws. Killing a defenseless innocent gets you a DSP. Because murder is on the Force's DSP list of offenses.

Now, keep in mind that the shooter believes he is right. His customs say he is right. He may even grow up to rule his entire planet by overwhelming popular vote - especially because he wipes out more homeless vermin than anyone else.... and he'd probably have the highest DSP total on the planet to go with it.

So to summarize - Social structure determines people's perceptions of right and wrong, good and evil. Social structure does not tell the Force what's good and evil. The Force already has those rules. And when it comes to DSPs, when there's any conflict between the systems, the Force wins.

Oly
15 February 2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Matt Richard
There is a big difference between being trained in the ways of the Nazi ways, and the dark side. Nazi's were told that what they were doing were right, they were the best and no one could stop them.
Dark Siders are taught that what they believe is in fact the Dark Side (bad side) of the Force, only they are taught that they can use that bad towards their own selfish wants.

So you believe that a Dark Side Nazi wouldn't be busy racking up the DSP's?

I don't think we're going to see Anakin choosing to use the bad for his own selfish needs. He'll see a path he can follow, a path he believes he can manage and a path that be believes he needs to take to protect his friends, family or the republic. It doesnt appear that Anakin will fall because he's evil or doing anything wrong by his own standards, Anakin will fall because he makes bad choices and doesn't realise the error of his ways.

Of course all that is kind of up for debate and the next two films alone will settle it.

However look forward to Anakin in the Empire Strikes Back, "Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength,
we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.". Yes he accepts he's using the Dark Side but he appears to have bigger aims than his own selfish wants. He wants order for the Galaxy, yes he wants to rule it but he appears to have bigger goals. I don't think he believes himself to be utterly evil but we know he's one of the biggest Dark Siders that there is.

Motivations matter not to the dark side, Luke killing the Emperor to save the Universe would have been a good motivation. However to do so in anger would have meant to fall to the darkside regardless of how selfless and good the motivations were.

Regards,

Oly