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Gulmyros
11 February 2002, 12:02 AM
Ok, it's been bugging me.

Waaaay back when there were zillions of Sith. How many? We're not sure about exact numbers, but there were AT LEAST enough to fight a war named after them, eh?

Ok, fast forward.

Darth NumNutz decides that there should only be two Sith at any time so that they can hide from the galaxy until the time when the Sith shall rise to conquer the galaxy again (or somesuch).

So, how do you raise an army with just two?

How does Sith Lord Darth Nameoftheweek know when to raise an army?

If you raise the Sith to their former glory, the galaxy's gonna know about it. So when do you go public?

What's the magic sign to mark the new age of the Sith?

Or are we just supposed to have two Sith for eternity, because Darth NumNutz was really working as a double agent for the good guys... and this was the easiest way to rid the galaxy of the Sith. Can't wipe 'em out, but we CAN limit them to only two forevermore....

Did I miss a Dark Side Memo somewhere with this information?

Kayle Skolaris
11 February 2002, 12:18 AM
See, the thing you gotta remember about this "rule of two" is that Evil doesn't work within the rules very well. In fact, part of being Evil is ignoring rules whenever they become inconvenient. Now Darth NumNutz did indeed declare that there should never be more than 2 Sith at any given time. But Darth NumNutz is DEAD and is in no position to enforce any such rule. And just because Yoda parroted the rule means nothing. Yoda isn't a Sith so his declarations don't exactly hold much weight where they're concerned. So he THINKS the rule is "Always 2 there are, no more, no less" but that doesn't necessarily make it so. You gotta keep the nature of Evil in mind when dealing with the Sith... Evil doesn't play fair, it doesn't believe in fair fights, and it NEVER plays by the rules!

kermit
11 February 2002, 02:22 AM
and its not as though Darth Sidious (Palpy) can train a new apprentice in the couple of years between movies, which implies that he had one (or more) waiting in the wings, so to speak, and thus breaking the "rule"

Oly
11 February 2002, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Gulmyros
So, how do you raise an army with just two?

How does Sith Lord Darth Nameoftheweek know when to raise an army?

If you raise the Sith to their former glory, the galaxy's gonna know about it. So when do you go public?

What's the magic sign to mark the new age of the Sith?

Or are we just supposed to have two Sith for eternity, because Darth NumNutz was really working as a double agent for the good guys... and this was the easiest way to rid the galaxy of the Sith. Can't wipe 'em out, but we CAN limit them to only two forevermore....

As Episode IV shows the Sith did do a pretty good job of taking over the galaxy with just the two of them. Episode 1 also show the sort of army that they were able to raise, with what appears to be the case with Episode 2 we'll see even more forces that they've managed to build up to fight for their aims (indirectly though it may be, a Sith General may not be in charge of battle plans but the armies are achieving the Sith's plans).

As for what happens once they're in charge, good question. Eps 4 to 6 suggest that they are no new high numbers of Sith Lords running around. Then again we don't know that for sure, maybe the rule of two has been dropped and new Sith Lords are being trained. Maybe running the galaxy with just the two of them behind the scenes is enough for them. Would Palpatine want to train lots of new Sith Lords if they'd only fight amongst themselves and tear down what he's achieved?

With just two the Sith certainly got the power, they certainly beat their opponents the Jedi (well sort of) and they know they've got private glory. Is that enough?

Regards,

Oly

Kayle Skolaris
11 February 2002, 02:37 AM
Actually it might be possible to train a Sith in that limited amount of time. Remember, the Dark Side's greatest lure is the speed with which one can attain considerable power.

Oly
11 February 2002, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by kermit
and its not as though Darth Sidious (Palpy) can train a new apprentice in the couple of years between movies, which implies that he had one (or more) waiting in the wings, so to speak, and thus breaking the "rule"

You talking about the loss of Maul in Episode 1 and the gap between the that and the new movie?

Hoping I'm not saying to much but it appears that the new apprentice is a turned Jedi. Given that he's already well force trained he's got 12 years (I think) to turn him ready for Episode 2, I think that should be enough time without having to break the rule of two.

Regards,

Oly

Donovan Morningfire
11 February 2002, 04:47 AM
As far as Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" and Sith coming to power, it is definitely plausible. Part of Bane's doctrine was to slowly prepare for the Sith to ascend, to only move when all the pieces were in place.

Palpatine/Sidious did this to a masterful degree. While there may have been only two "Sith", he did have many underlings and lackeys, some of which may have been given rudimentary training in the Force and the ways of the Dark Side, but were not given true Sith training. Bane's rule of two was devised to keep the Sith from tearing itself apart and to focus on their goal of galactic domination and destruction of the Jedi Order. And stressed that patience was a virtue, and that while the current two Sith may not overtake the galaxy, they were to pave the way so that a future Sith Lord could one day fulfill this destiny.

While Kayle's point about evil 'bending the rules' does have some validity, what's also been missed is there is more than one way to take over a galaxy. While military power might be quicker, political methods are far more stealthy and longer lasting, though it takes longer.

And who's to say that the Sith Lords prior to Sidious didn't try before to fulfill the Sith's destiny, it's just they learned to use secrecy as a weapon, and hide behind the scenes. That's why so many of the High Council in Ep1 were skeptical of Qui-Gon's claims of Maul being a Sith Lord, the Sith were believed to be long gone. Palpatine exploits this theory of working behind the scenes excellently in Ep2, the main bad guy, Darth Tyrannus, is believed to be the Master, and with the Apprentice dead as of 10 years ago, the Jedi believe the Sith menace is gone, which lets Sidious do his dirty deeds with less fear of being caught.

Kayle Skolaris
11 February 2002, 04:54 AM
Donovan's got a point... Subtletly is the Death Cult's best friend, and let's face it, the Sith are pretty frickin' close to a Death Cult. Historically, cults dedicated to evil and depravity thrive as long as they remain subtle and underground. Every time such a cult becomes too bold, they get smashed. This holds true for the ancient Egyptian Cult of Set, the Middle Eastern Hashashin cult (from which we get the modern word "assassin") and the East Indian Thuggee cult (from which we get the word "thug"). In every case, these cults thrived until they became too bold and too much of an embarrassment to The Powers That Be.

Kobayashi_Maru
11 February 2002, 07:18 AM
We are allowing Sideous to break the rule of two. We assume thier is Darth Tyranus out there. We also have another Darth and his disciple along with 3 hands that work together! Eventhough we are playing in Old Rebublic/Rise Empire we still use IMp InQ and Emp Hands for NPC's.
The goal is that the party will wreck enough havok on his plans , but not so much he can't cover up/take care of, and it will be the down fall of his many disciples. In the case of the Hand's it'll be them knowing of each other. Sideous will still come out on top but learn a lesson on why there is only two, a master and an apprentice.

I thought maybe Sideous doesn't see a need anymore for the rule of two as long as there is only one master. Or even forgotten the lessen!!!
Anyway it just a neat idea of behind the scenes actions and reactions (mainly for those who know its going on, GM).

I'd have to agree with Donavan and Kayle with evil and secrecy; remeber the greatest trick the devil pulled was getting the public to believe he didn't exist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

loudanddeep
11 February 2002, 07:36 AM
Well, here is my take on it for my campaign...
(which is set about 5 years before E4).

I know this may not fit with everything, but it works for my group.
Dark jedi-person who knows how to use the force, but has too many dark side points, and is a bad guy.
Sith - Some one who knows specifc skills and ancient secrets, and is really bad. They also get a title, "Darth" xxxx.

So, I see it this way. If to be turned to the dark side, all you have to do is get a bunch of DS points, then 'give in to you hate", that does not make you a sith. It just makes you a bad guy.

Being a "sith" might be when you reach a certain level of knowledge and power from your master. Without that knowledge and power you may just be a really powerful dark jedi, but not quite enough to threaten your master.

Soooo....
In my campaign, there are a lot of dark jedi out there under Vader and Palpy, but only two who are have reached the title of "sith".
Of course, there may be some darkones who are getting close...

One neat little bundle.
I get all the dark jedi I need for bad guys, and I get to support a stupid line of diagloge in a poorly scripted movie.

dp

BrianDavion
11 February 2002, 08:03 AM
yup.the fact that there are only 2 sith does NOT rule out dark Jedi Flunkies.

espeically dureing the rebellion era. and even the rise of the empire era...

MFalls
11 February 2002, 08:37 AM
I just have to say in Episode 2 who says Darth Tyranis has to be a Sith. Maybe he's just a Dark Jedi saying he's a true Sith. And Palpatine is just letting him act this out. So he won't be found out. Or maybe Palpatine let the Jedi know that Tyranis is the Sith their looking for when really he's just a Jedi that turned Dark and became powerful. A lot of us have been thinking that Palpatine is behind Tyranis but maybe he has nothing to do with him. But we will see in three months when the movie and the novel come out.

blitzkreig
11 February 2002, 10:24 AM
You mean you didn't get the memo!? guess that little geek in the mail room is gonna get a force grip where the sun don't shine...

but seriously..i see no reason that a properly motivated sith lord wouldn't train two or three additional sith..then let the other sith apprentices (sithlings?) duke it out for the title of SITH JUNIOR EXECUTIVE. that way he gets the best of what's available and has an extra hand or so to kick things around

of course this would have to be on the quiet when communicating with his flunkies, but...

Lokar
11 February 2002, 12:50 PM
Kayle and Donovan do bring up a good point. I interpereted the rule of two as two Sith Lords. Now there can be lots of junior managment (dark side users) with a few middle managment (Sith Acolytes) being trained for the eventual day when one of two meets a 'unfortunate accident'. Now the beauty of this and, of course, evil is that each one of the Sith Lords would be training their own seconds. But those are the wages of evil. :D ;) B)

Talonne Hauk
11 February 2002, 03:44 PM
In the first AD&D edition, the monk class could only achieve levels 15-18 by defeating the only other monk who currently held that level. I think in game terms, that's how the "rule of two" should be applied. Having said that, I also feel that it's a freaking huge galaxy, and there's got to be a secret cache of Sith Lore bound up and ready to be studied by an evil geekoid ready to break the rules. It's all up to how you want to game...

The Admiral
12 February 2002, 05:00 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Yoda's 'Always two there are, a Master and an Apprentice' just means they always come in pairs. If you find one Sith, there's bound to be another one. There's no specific statement that there are only ever two.

if you think about it, it'd be pretty silly for there only ever to be two, the simple fact that Sith are so secretive means that they probably wouldn't know about each other. So Darth Irritatus and his apprentice Darth Payninnanek, who have learned the ways of the Sith in the ancient Yavin 4 temples, bump into Darth Bwuhaha and his apprentice Darth Weibilswob'elbuutthaidonfildun, who learned the Sith ways on Aridun. Now there are four Sith. What the hell are they suppossed to do? Sure, the apprentices might duke it out for dominance, but the Masters would probably both be thinking of joining forces until they can stab the other in the back.

So, to reitterate, many Sith, always in pairs.

DirkGreystoke
12 February 2002, 07:09 AM
From a pure film standpoint, I would be inclined to agree with the Admiral. The real question, as I see it, is this. Are the three pages on the history of the Sith in The Phantom Menace novelization something that George wrote and just did not make in in the movie? Or was it something that Terry Brooks added as the author of the book? If the first is true, then there are only two sith at a time to prevent internal power struggles...which makes a great deal of sense to me. But if it is option number two, and Brooks just tried to add something in the book to make Yoda's quote more believeable, the more Sith are possible. I hate to sound like broken record but I am hoping Attack of the Clones sheds some more light on this topic. But Gully, if I am understanding you correctly you seem to be dissapointed because you want a Sith bad guy in your Rise of the Empire game, which I can certainly understand.

Reezen
12 February 2002, 10:04 AM
From the Tales of the Jedi and other sources.... they differentiate between the Sith and the Dark-Siders.

Anyone can be a Darksider while the Sith use "magic". They have powerful amulets and know a variety of archane rituals (which is how Exar Kun wound up tied to the Temple on Yavin). Same for the Krath sect.

Supposedly the Sith magicians were taken over by some Dark-Siders who gave themselves "Dark Lords of the Sith" - a ceremonial title Vader eventually got around to adopting. Depending on how deeply Anakin Skywalker delved into the history of the Dark Side, he may not even know what the Sith are, exactly. It does not seem like there are many people who would dare to challenge Vader's knowledge on his title...

BrianDavion
12 February 2002, 12:13 PM
those who choose to ignore the statement in the novel forget that the novel IS Cannon.

the TPM novel IMHO has MUCH more creditability then the stuff seen in the comics etc....

so as of TPM, according to offical cannon, there where always only 2 sith

DirkGreystoke
12 February 2002, 03:23 PM
those who choose to ignore the statement in the novel forget that the novel IS Cannon.

Sorry Brian, but according to Lucasfilm, the films and only the films are cannon, because certain liberties are taken by the authors when scripting the novelizations. I would agree that The Phantom Menace novelization is more credible than other novels or comic books, but the fact of the matter is still that it is not cannon. You can find the official answer at starwars.com. Therefore this matter is still open to debate until Lucas reveals more in the films.

Please see the following link...
http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20010817.html

Gulmyros
12 February 2002, 05:06 PM
But Gully, if I am understanding you correctly you seem to be dissapointed because you want a Sith bad guy in your Rise of the Empire game, which I can certainly understand.Good guess, but I'm actually running a late Rebellion Era smuggler's campaign and need a Sith like a Jawa needs sand.

My big thing was not that the Sith could conquer the galaxy, Palpy did that (mostly). Sure, only two Sith, and they're running things. Ok.

But what I thought I remembered (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please) was that the two were to stay in hiding until the time came to return the Sith to their former glory. They were to have wiped out the Jedi as a matter of course, and not just be in control of the galaxy, but POPULATE it as well.

In the New Glory Days of the Sith, there would be lots of 'em, not just two.

And what I couldn't reconcile was how a Sith Lord or Master was supposed to know WHEN it was ok to start upping the numbers. If at all, that is.

Lokar
12 February 2002, 05:24 PM
I don't consider the novels to be at the same level as the movies. Personally I perfer the sinister, majik & alchemy using evil (TotJ, proably the only thing I give KJA gruding credit for) as opposed to the group of Jedi who decided force choak slaming is fun (TPM novelization). Also another question: if the rule of two was started by Darth Bane after the defeat of the Sith by the Jedi then how would Yoda know about it? Hmmmmm, perhaps insider knowledge? ;) :D

DirkGreystoke
12 February 2002, 05:26 PM
Also another question: if the rule of two was started by Darth Bane after the defeat of the Sith by the Jedi then how would Yoda knowabout it? Hmmmmm, perhaps insider knowledge?

No way. Yoda just knows a lot of stuff.

Lokar
12 February 2002, 05:30 PM
Yes, but the 'Rule of Two' would be ultra secert stuff. In order to know that Yoda would have to know that the Sith survived. How else would Yoda know that they survived unless...;) :D :p

Kayle Skolaris
13 February 2002, 04:24 PM
Just my two centicreds, but I'm of the opinion that where Darksiders and Sith are concerned, the Jedi put their holier-than-thou attitudes aside and fight like soldiers in a war rather than warrior-monks upholding specific ideals. As such, I wouldn't put it past Yoda and Company to resort to mind-rape tactics on captured Sith to extract information. Yes, it's brutal. Yes, it'll earn whoever does it and whoever sanctions it (or even knows about it and turns a blind eye to it) a DSP, but it will ultimately save lives and help the Jedi be prepared for future conflicts. When dealing with beings with powers similar to their own, the Jedi would have little choice but to resort to questionable methods to achieve their goals. It's a simple matter of survival.

Donovan Morningfire
14 February 2002, 04:45 AM
The ends justfies the means, eh Kayle? :D

But I can see where he's coming from in that aspect. It's just I'm not so sure the Jedi would so quickly abandon their monk aspect to focus so heavily on the warrior side. Especially when it comes to mind-rape. Something like that might be done if there were no other alternatives (such as the resident Farseeing expert kept drawing blanks, and the usual information sources, ala spies/Shadows, dried up).

Maybe it's just a difference in viewpoints, but I don't think the Jedi would become dark and gritty soldiers. They hold themselves to higher standards, and the battle of Ruusan (going from what little I know of the Jedi vs. Sith series) highlighted what happened when the Jedi begin to let go of those principles. "When fighting monsters, one should be careful not to become a monster themselves." That's why the Jedi Code/Mantra exists, to help avoid this.

I've talked with more than a few Vietnam vets, and some of the stories of what they did to survive are unsettling to say the least. If the Jedi put their Code on the back burner to fight the Sith or some-such, then they would be no better than what they fought, and regardless of who wins, the galaxy at large looses. The Jedi are an idealized, perhaps even romanticized, version of the samurai of fuedal Japan. Death before Dishonor, or in the case of the Jedi, Death before Dark Side.

Kayle Skolaris
14 February 2002, 07:29 AM
Donovan, I agree with you completely. At the same time, these are mortal, fallible beings who are just as subject to fear and desperation as any other highly disciplined and highly trained group of individuals. Training your whole life to control fear and reject desperation will enable you to hold out for awhile, but if your entire way of life is in jeopardy as well as the safety of trillions upon trillions of souls across the galaxy, sometimes the only solution is to commit crimes one once thought utterly unthinkable in any imaginable situation. I've heard Vietnam veteran stories as well, and in every instance where I asked them "if you could do it over again, would you have done the same thing" every single one said they would. They'd probably be haunted more by their actions at the time than they were originally, but they'd do it. And I believe the Jedi would do what is necessary as well.

Just my two centicreds...

Kobayashi_Maru
14 February 2002, 07:50 AM
"Mind Rape" sounds like a quick and easy path to the solution. How many times can the excuse "there is no other alternitive" then be used to take the quick and easy path. I believe the Code is in place to avoid such excuses. It almost seems beneath Yoda to "mind rape" someone.

I had always thought that the Jedi had discovered the knowledge through holocrons, artifacts and hieroglyphs that they studied through generations!!!!!

Kayle Skolaris
14 February 2002, 07:59 AM
KM, for purposes of my campaigns, they did stumble across the info in artifacts and such... But for people who are of the opinion that the Sith would never record that sort of information for purposes of secrecy, mind-rape is the most logical method of obtaining the information. I don't like it. I don't condone it. I don't suggest it as an interrogation method. But it IS a possible, even probable, method for extracting the information.

And really, what would the Jedi DO with Sith prisoners? You know, the ones with actual Force Training... It would appear that the regular authorities would have little chance of holding them in confinement... And I doubt the Jedi run their own prison system... So what do they DO with their Force capable prisoners?

Kobayashi_Maru
14 February 2002, 08:05 AM
It is very probable!!!
It just begins to blurr that SW line of Black/White!!!
I personally like the idea of aritfacts and such!
I also think the Sith might very well record their accounts to keep the religion alive through the gaps of no Sith Lords.

But I digress away from the topic of Two; I like and would have to agree with the Admiral's take on it!!!!!!!

Kayle Skolaris
14 February 2002, 08:12 AM
Another idea for looking at the Rule of Two is that Sith tend to work specific turfs... And on their turf, there's only ever two, a master and an apprentice. Turfs would not be as small as Sectors... More likely Oversectors or Regions. But within their area, they reign supreme as far as the Sith heirarchy goes. But they all report back to Z'Ha'Dum periodically... oops, wrong universe! :D:p:D

Kobayashi_Maru
14 February 2002, 08:16 AM
Good one, Kayle :p !!!!

I was wondering why would the rule of two be followed long after Bane? That's when I decided to do something like I originally posted:D !

Kayle Skolaris
14 February 2002, 08:43 AM
One more thing to consider... I believe Yoda's statement applies to Sith Lords only. It says nothing about Sith Sorcerers, Witches, Adepts, Acolytes, Warmasters, Assassins, Priests, or Seducers. Sith Lords rule, the others obey. As such, it is the rulers who are the most deadly and the most difficult to contend with.

scourgicus
14 February 2002, 09:15 AM
It appears that Vader and Palpatine DID train various Force Sensitives (Hethrir etc) but NONE of them became proper Sith (initiated into the lore of the Sith). Bane instituted the Rule of Two because 3+ Sith will team up against each other. The Rule of Two is to stop infighting and get Sith focused on their true enemies - the Jedi.

Of course the fact that Palpatine intended to have Luke replace Vader as his right-hand man (i.e. new Sith Lord), I suspect Palpy was not above preparing new Sith. Vader obviously planned to use Luke to overthrow the Emperor (new Sith Lord) so its entirely possible they were individually preparing Apprentices for when one or the other died off or got weak enough to destroy.

In our campaign, Vader and Sidious have a number of FS being trained (often starting their training with various DS Prophets, as per the RESB ) but only one of them (possibly two) learn enough to be granted access to Sith literature and hence gain Sith PrCs. So far its working pretty good.

reliant
14 February 2002, 09:18 AM
My thought on it was that the big bad sith come in pairs. They can have loads of sith flunkys (acolytes and dark jedis) but when it comes to being Darth X then you can only have two. Two in one organization that is. So Darth Sidious has Darth Maul (RIP) and maybe some other dark bad guys running around, but all the power is reserved for the two Darths. So in the next movie, one of the flunky dark jedi gets promoted to a darth, and the pair continue. Now there could be other sith in the universe we just don't get to see them. Otherwise if you killed the two sith there would never be any more, which we know is not the case. We don't know for sure that Darth Sidious and Darth Maul are the only two, and just because yoda says it doesn't make it so (he didn't know about either of them until the fight with Darth Maul). I think that this makes more sense for the game because it allows you to have more sith (thus being able to use some of the really cool stuff from the darkside book) while still keeping to the "only two" rule. I know I am rambling on, but basically there are just two real sith in any one given place. Others may be elsewhere, we just don't know...

Dutcha, The Dark Jedi Jawa
14 February 2002, 10:42 AM
It seems to me that if after Darth Bane the rule of two continued for a while it might make some sense, since they were direct Sith Descendents of Bane, and since it was his philosphy, it might mean more to them.
It is now a long time after that, and now Sidious is in charge. It's very possible he just decides to break the rule because it serves him better to break it. Sounds like a Sidious thing to do, breaking rules and all, and if it serves his higher purpose I don't think a rule would be able to stand in his way.
As for later in life, when he wants to take on Luke as a new apprentice, I believe his own confidence might have clouded his judgement. He obviously didn't see the betrayel untill a little too late, and like scourgicus pointed out, Vader wanted to use Luke to join up and overthrow the Emperor. But at this point, the Emperor may have had too much time being the most powerful guy in the universe, not caring if he trained a couple more Sith, thinking that no matter if all of them rose up, he would be able to quell the uprise with his unimaginable power, that he believe surpassed all, with no exceptions. I know if I had control of the universe for a substantial period of time, my judgement might be clouded slightly with my own amazing power... just might though.
This is just another point of view, I myself tend to buy into the fact that there could be only two... all over the place. An area over there has two, and an area over there has two, and they don't contact or know eachother. Makes sense to me, but I believe this is just another possible explanation.

Gulmyros
14 February 2002, 08:34 PM
Ok, just imagine....

Little Jedi Billy goes adventuring and comes upon a dark, pyramid shaped holocron. Enthralled by it, he holds it up and attempts to open/activate it. But despite his best efforts, it remains inert in his palm.

After a short time Jedi Billy gets frustrated and gives up. "I HATE this thing!" he exclaims.

At that moment the holocron begins to glow with a soft light and a ghostly image appears floating above it. "Welcome to the archive of Powerful Sith Magic," it speaks in a hollow voice. "I am Darth Operatus, keeper of the archive."

Jedi Billy's eyes widened. "That's great! I want to learn EVERYTHING there is to know about --"

The image continued on as if Billy had not spoken at all. "Your journey into darkness is very important to us. Our records indicate that no knowledge can be passed on at this time. It seems there are currently two Sith active in the known galaxy. Eventually one will try to kill the other, or one will simply die, and Sith knowledge will then be available. Please try to activate the archive again later..."

bmenges
4 March 2002, 08:54 AM
This discussion brings up an interesting point. How did Yoda and Mace Windu know that there was a rule of two if they had thought the Sith had been extinct for a millenia? Does this reflect that they may have known more than they let on, or did they simply finally decide to use the force to determine if there were Sith, and came upon the rule of two.

reliant
4 March 2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Gulmyros
Ok, just imagine....

The image continued on as if Billy had not spoken at all. "Your journey into darkness is very important to us. Our records indicate that no knowledge can be passed on at this time. It seems there are currently two Sith active in the known galaxy. Eventually one will try to kill the other, or one will simply die, and Sith knowledge will then be available. Please try to activate the archive again later..."

HA! Even in the star wars universe do you get put on hold no matter WHO you call! After the holocron closes again, it needs to play some cheesy elevator music too...

Gulmyros
4 March 2002, 11:37 AM
Heh, glad you enjoyed it, reliant.

For a little while there, I was afraid this bit of overt sarcasm had gone totally unnoticed. :D

reliant
5 March 2002, 04:22 AM
Your call may be monitored for quality assurance... Please hold, all of our Sith Lords are busy assisting other fallen Jedi... Your descent to the darkside is important to us, please continue to hold and your call will be answered in the order it was recieved...

Kal_Myadon
6 March 2002, 04:21 AM
Going from a purely roleplay point of view just because one sect of the Sith declared that there would only be two does not mean that other dark jedi could not find Sith knowledge (Korriban, Dxun, yavin 4 all examples of places Sith lore was left lying around) and use it to declare themselves Dark Lords of the Sith. If Palpy found out he'd kill them of course but if they remained quiet and built up in a quiet area of space (unknown regions, wild space) they could be available as antagonists for your heroes without having them have to go upaginst the great wrinkly one or asthma boy (just my petnames for them)

Kal

reliant
6 March 2002, 04:39 AM
I still stick with the "only two in one place" theory... Palpy and Vader were the main big bads in the galaxy, but stuck mostly to Coruscant or ships in the imperial fleet. If there were more sith around, who would know? They could be anywhere (it is a pretty big galaxy afterall), and it isn't like Vader or the Emp would know (remember vader didn't sense obi-wan until he was on the DS with him). Besides, like I said before, if both Sith happened to be in one place at the same time (like the DS) and both died there would be no more sith... I somehow doubt the power hungry sith would want that to happen...

DarthMalaryush
6 March 2002, 07:35 AM
Things to remember about the SW univers in general


The Lords of the Sith dont stick to rules like there can be only two.


Palpatine had trained Vader, very well, then turned his attention to his Hands, Mara Jade and who knowns how many more. Mara gets miffed in one of the books when she finds out she was not the only Hand.


Vader trained many others also, If you beleive the WEG Suppliments, He trained Grand Inquisiter Tramayne, and another Imp. officer I believe, named Tyne.

Something to think about.

Talonne Hauk
6 March 2002, 07:41 AM
Yeah, but all those subordinates were trained as Dark Jedi, not as Sith. An important distinction, because the Sith were practitioners of mystical alchemical rites. That's the knowledge they didn't share with anyone outside of their partnership.

Dark Lord Drax
7 March 2002, 05:30 PM
Perhaps you may have guessed it from my name, but I consider myself a Sith Lord, in the fact that I have been studying everything I can find about the Sith. There are several misconceptions that many people seem to have.

1. Sith and Dark Jedi are not the same thing as has already been mentioned. There could be dozens upon dozens of Dark Jedi, but they pale in comparison to the Sith. Mostly because of...

2. The Sith are an ancient cult of mysterious people who studied the Dark Side of the Force to the point that darkness to them is no longer just a state of being, but is an art. The Sith know ways of manipulating the Dark Side that could scare even a Dark Jedi. However, must of the Sith knowledge was lost in the wars, it isn't too hard to believe that the Sith knew how to control the Force in such a way as to do things such as breathe flames, crystalize their enemies...
In fact, a Sith Apprentice killed one of our PCs by crystalizing him, and then letting him shatter.

3. After the Sith wars, the reamining Sith decided that it was too dangerous for them to exist in large numbers because the desire for power was tearing their cult apart. For those of you who didn't know this, the Apprentice achieved the title of master by destroying his master. So, Darth Bane decided that there only needed to be two, and that these two would work in the shadows. E1 was a great example of this. How are we to know if in the time before E1 Sith Lords weren't manipulating armies? Perhaps every war in history was started by a Sith.

4. In keeping with the secrecy, the Sith also hid what knowledge remained of their dark and mysterious ways. Now, nobody really knows what a Sith is capable of. In our campaign, my namesake, Darth Drax, has uncovered the ancient Sith powers, and can do things from breathing flames that seek their targets, to teleporting clear across the galaxy.

It is possible, and highly probable that during the wars, and secrecy that even the later Sith lost access to the truely impressive powers. Even Palpatine/Sidious may not have known that Sith could teleport, and cause their victims to simply explode. I once read that a Sith had generated a ball of pure energy and when he hurled it, he destroyed a Corvette-sized starship with it.

I shall make another post later about the powers of the Sith.

darth maim
7 March 2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Gulmyros
Ok, it's been bugging me.

Waaaay back when there were zillions of Sith. How many? We're not sure about exact numbers, but there were AT LEAST enough to fight a war named after them, eh?

Ok, fast forward.

Darth NumNutz decides that there should only be two Sith at any time so that they can hide from the galaxy until the time when the Sith shall rise to conquer the galaxy again (or somesuch).

So, how do you raise an army with just two?

How does Sith Lord Darth Nameoftheweek know when to raise an army?

If you raise the Sith to their former glory, the galaxy's gonna know about it. So when do you go public?

What's the magic sign to mark the new age of the Sith?

Or are we just supposed to have two Sith for eternity, because Darth NumNutz was really working as a double agent for the good guys... and this was the easiest way to rid the galaxy of the Sith. Can't wipe 'em out, but we CAN limit them to only two forevermore....

Did I miss a Dark Side Memo somewhere with this information?

Actually it was explained that the reason Darth Bane went to the rule of two was to have less people draw from the power of the darkside thus giving him immense power compared to what he currently had... why 2 because 1) he had a chick working with him to take the others out and 2) someone has to watch your back, do your errands and take your place and train their own apprentice after you die. This way you have huge power and your "religion" goes on forever.

darth maim
8 March 2002, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Talonne Hauk
Yeah, but all those subordinates were trained as Dark Jedi, not as Sith. An important distinction, because the Sith were practitioners of mystical alchemical rites. That's the knowledge they didn't share with anyone outside of their partnership.

Actually going by strictly game terms... not all of them could perform alchemy. If Darth Vader or Palpatine trained them to join up and replace the other in the partnership they could easily be sith. The distinction is important but it's equally important not to write-off everyone whoo isn't a SITH LORD as just another Dark Jedi...