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View Full Version : The Officail A-wing Stats are wrong!



Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
22 February 2002, 10:06 PM
I just got the the Wotc Guide to the starships of the galaxy and the i found out the the A-wing no longer has a cuncussion missle launcher. It also says that starfighter class ships cannot have cuncussion missle launchers even though many of the fighters (like the Miy'til Fighter) have cuncussion missle launcher. Does anyone else find this extreamly Vexing?:mad:

DirkGreystoke
22 February 2002, 10:11 PM
If I remember correctly, the A-Wing had no missle weapons in the WEG version. But then again it does have them in Rouge Leader, so who knows. I would jump over to starwars.com and see what they say and go with that.

As for the concussion missle on a fighter, don't know too much about that.

Ronin
22 February 2002, 10:16 PM
There`s kinda two versions of the A`+
one with a conc` launcher,
and one with a targeting-jammer.

I don`t have SotG yet but I guess they show the latter version....

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
23 February 2002, 12:02 AM
The video games give the A-Wing concussion missiles because the jamming type weapon would have been hard to put in to the game.

And DirkGreystoke is correct about the WEG version of the A-Wing not having concussion missles. See p. 248 of the 2nd Ed. R&E for all of the stats.

Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
23 February 2002, 02:47 AM
Oh.

GMSarli
23 February 2002, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
I just got the the Wotc Guide to the starships of the galaxy and the i found out the the A-wing no longer has a cuncussion missle launcher.

WEG first published A-wing stats in The Star Wars Sourcebook (1987). Concussion missiles didn't appear on an A-wing until LucasArts published X-wing (PC game, 1992). WEG, in the SWRPG 2nd Edition R&E Gamemaster Screen (1996), was nice enough to cover LucasArts' change by saying that "some variants have been equipped with concussion missile launchers." (p.40)

So, the concussion missiles seen in the PC games have been established as a variant, not the original class. If you want to use this variant, just add concussion missiles to your A-wing -- they certainly give you the rules to do so.


It also says that starfighter class ships cannot have cuncussion missle launchers even though many of the fighters (like the Miy'til Fighter) have cuncussion missle launcher. Does anyone else find this extreamly Vexing?

Look at Table 1-13: Master Starship Weapons (Starships of the Galaxy, p.14-15). At the end of the table (p.15), you'll see this note: "Class: Each weapon is designed for use on a specific class of starships. A starship may use a weapon designed for a smaller class of ship without penalty. If a starship mounts a weapon designed for a larger class, it costs double the emplacement points."

Thus, a starfighter can indeed mount concussion missiles (listed as Class: Space Transport) by paying double the emplacement points.

For an A-wing, then, if you want to play with a variant that has concussion missiles, just add two fire-linked Small Concussion Missile Launchers (although the A-wing holds 6 missiles in each, not 8). This would normally be 4 emplacement points (3 for a single, +1 for one additional fire-linked launcher), so this is doubled to 8 emplacement points for a Starfighter-class ship. The A-wing's two fire-linked laser cannons only take up 7 emplacement points (6+1), and a Diminutive-sized ship can carry up to 18 emplacement points, so this is well within that limit. I'd probably give them a +6 fire control.

If you trade out the enemy targeting jammer for the two concussion missile launchers, I'd just rule that they have equivalent emplacement points and cost (logically, the variant does not mount both the concussion missiles and the targeting jammer because the A-wing shown in X-wing doesn't have both).

Tramp
23 February 2002, 11:19 AM
If you check the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Starships it says that the A-Wing was built around the two Concussuion missile launchers. Therefore the A-Wing should indeed have them. Both the WEG and WotC stats are wrong.

bagman19
23 February 2002, 12:12 PM
And Bob Brown's SW Discussions show that the Essential Guide messed up on the escape pod horribly, the number of engines and such, so you can take it's views with a grain of salt as well. Who really knows who is wrong? If you have a screen grab of an A-Wing firing a missile, then I guess it is possible that the Essential Guide is right.
But the way that the construction rules go, for an A-Wing at that price, you don't get missiles. If you want missiles, you have to pay for them, pure and simple. In this case, WotC and WEG are right.

Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
24 February 2002, 03:26 AM
I'll just Jack up the price of the A-wing and include Cuncussion missle launchers.:p

Desilijic
24 February 2002, 07:50 AM
To solve the A-wing concussion missle problem, we must look to ROTJ-the only film source the A-wing is shown in.
A pair of A-wings of Green Group hits the bridge deflection array of the Executer with a stream of projectiles that have to be concussion missles as they resemble the CM's Lando launched from the Falcon 's launchers. Simple laser cannons could not cause that much damage to the hull of a SSD. When in doubt check the films.

BrianDavion
24 February 2002, 07:55 AM
only problem is that concussion missles don't fire a "stream of projectiles" rewatch ANH and observe the MASSIVE amounts of damage the X-wing laser cannons did to the Death Star's hull.

fact is.. simple laser cannons COULD do that much damage.

Nova Spice
24 February 2002, 05:19 PM
The A-wings at the Battle of Endor DID use concussion missiles, Desilijic is correct. I would say that Green Squadron was equipped with concussion missiles in the films due to the specific nature of the attack on the Death Star (i.e. due to the attack run process, A-wings would need missiles to take out the main reactor). I don't think most A-wings have concussion missile launchers, only modified versions are equipped with warheads.
The targeting jammer is found on the basic variant.

BrianDavion
24 February 2002, 05:43 PM
thats a LOT of conjecture. they flew into DS2 so they MUST have missles.

we never saw an A-wing fire missles at the DS2, they COULD have just been escorts

Reverend Strone
24 February 2002, 07:03 PM
You have to remember, most of the stats in any of these books are just one person's conjecture. There will always be varying interpretations.

Anyone ever compared the Droid Fighters with X-wings in the WOTC CRB? Those stats just don't seem right to me, but again, it's just an interpretation.

I think as GMs, you've just got to make them work for you. Everyone's SW game is in the end, just their own take on the SW Universe. It's great there's a forum like the Holonet to share these kinds of observations and unite our collective visions and insights, but the last word is really that of the GM of any campaign. If you don't like what's written, change it. That's your right as a God of your own little Galaxy.

Sherman Shipyards
25 February 2002, 09:22 AM
Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer's true problem is getting me, his GM, to give him an A-wing in the first place.

Coming back to the topic at hand, I personaly go for the variant idea myself. It would make sence, because warheads are hard to come by and the added mass of a warhead laucher would cut down on the A-wing's accelation. The warhead laucher would only be use when it fit the mission profile. The little difference in accelation could be the difference in wether you live or die.

FallenAngel
25 February 2002, 09:32 AM
i think the variant idea is probably correct... but, i must saythis. if i remember correctly(its been awhile), my SW Tech. Manual says that the Awings have C.missles... but thats just a vague memory, not sure whether its correct or not.

GMSarli
25 February 2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Desilijic
A pair of A-wings of Green Group hits the bridge deflection array of the Executer with a stream of projectiles that have to be concussion missles as they resemble the CM's Lando launched from the Falcon 's launchers.

I went and compared these two sections of footage 20+ times to try to see if the shots from the A-wings vs. the Executor were similar to the shots from the Falcon against the DS2 generator.

In my opinion, the evidence does not conclusively support the "A-wing's used concussion missiles" theory, but it doesn't conclusively rule it out, either. To me, the visual similarity is moderate. Color and size are approximately the same, but the rate of travel of the shots from the A-wings is about 4x-5x as fast as, for example, Wedge's proton torpedoes (different weapon, of course, but both of these shots are easy to compare because they both involve looking in the direction of the shot from the firer to the target ... the Falcon's shots are from a different angle and the sequence is broken as it changes the camera angle). Could concussion missiles just be that much faster? Sure, but that would also make them about the same visual speed as laser cannons ... and that's kinda hard for me to swallow.

The real kicker, for me, is the sound. Both Wedge's proton torpedoes and the Falcon's concussion missiles make an almost identical sound when they are fired, kind of a spat-spat sound. The shots from the A-wings against the shield generators of the Executor, however, make a distinctly different shung-shung sound. Listen to both of them and draw your own conclusions.

On a different note, some have mentioned that different technical books (Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, for example) have mentioned the A-wing having concussion missiles. This is true, but this book (for example) was published in 1996, four years after LucasArts published X-wing and established the idea that A-wings had concussion missiles. Everything that came after X-wing and its sequels had to explain A-wings having concussion missiles ... and the computer games also completely changed the story behind the A-wing as well (when WEG wrote up their description, they were supposed to have been designed by General Dodonna and Wallex Blissex, the guy who designed the Victory-class star destroyer, after the Battle of Yavin ... X-wing shows A-wings in use well before the Battle of Yavin).

So, essentially, LucasArts deviated from already-established information for the perfectly good reason that they were trying to make a better game (X-wing would have been kinda boring if it only had X-wings and Y-wings, and concussion missiles make the A-wing missions more interesting and varied ... an "enemy targeting jammer" would have been hard to portray in a PC game anyway). That doesn't change the fact that WEG wrote up the first description and that WotC deferred to them for the equally good reason of keeping the RPGs consistent with each other.

reliant
25 February 2002, 11:43 AM
I don't remember the A's firing concussion missles in ROTJ. I just watched it not that long ago, and it looked like laser fire to me. Then again, I could be wrong. Maybe if I had the movies on DVD... ANYWAY, The X-Wing series of games did give missles to the A's, but that was just the game. My personal opinion (for what THAT is worth) would be that the A-Wing would NOT have missle launchers unless modified to carry them. If you want em, fine, just pay to add them (as someone mentioned in an earlier post).

BrianDavion
25 February 2002, 01:58 PM
if the A-wing was designed after yavin thewre would be a contiunalty error. since Dondanna was captured at Yavin:)

Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
25 February 2002, 02:54 PM
Yes, Dodonna was captured at Yavin. Maybe they used his notes?????

blitzkreig
25 February 2002, 04:48 PM
hrm definitely two gunmen, one in the schoolbook depository and one on the grassy knoll. reason they didn't find the guy on the grassy knoll is because he put on clark kent's glasses (walla new person, it worked in superman)...

onto the actual topic at hand, how could official stats be wrong?

considering the good people at WoTC went to all the trouble to include the A-wing stats then we should assume that they come stock with the targetting jammer and are available with concussion missiles as either an aftermarket modification or a through the manufacturer as some sort of upgrade..

or better yet as a whole other series of A-Wing as it sounds like we are assuming that the manufacturer only produced a limited number.

but as revstrone pointed out, it is ultimately the GM's decision as to how the thing gets what they come with.

however, looking at the picture in SotG i cannot possibly fathom where you would put concussion missile launchers in the first place so i am inclined to belief that they did not come with concussion missiles in the first place

BrianDavion
25 February 2002, 05:51 PM
in Mike Stackpole's Bacta war they mention the "A-wing MK II"

so let's end this debate saying the A-wing MK II has 360 swilling guns and concussion missles :)

Desilijic
25 February 2002, 06:17 PM
Lucas Lisincing is the ultimate authority of what is and is not canon. They get the approval of Lucas himself! Starwars.com's databank listing of the Alliance A-wing have it armed with a pair of laser cannons, and concussion missles. Lucasfilm has made it's opinion clear to support WEG's original specs for the A-wing starfighter.
Here is the link for the A-wing databank listing:

here (http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/starwars.l90/databank_468x60;sz=468x60;ord=742177310325745500?)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!- various bridge crewer of SSD Exucuter as a lone, out-of-control A-wing slams into its main bridge.

Tao
25 February 2002, 06:52 PM
Alright... my say on this (not that it matters)

In the X-wing series of books it mentions that the A-wings used by the Alliance were not mass produced by a single facility. They were patched together at dozens of manufacturing centers using the same basic design specs. The most important specifications were the hull and enginge designs. Apart from that, each of the different runs had massive deviations. The book states that some feature swivelling laser cannons that could fire in a 180 degree arc, some feature fixed, some could cover 360 degrees. Some of them had wood inlay on the instrument panels, some didnt. Some may have had concussion missile launchers, some may have not. I am not entirely sure on the publishing date, but it may be a safe assumption that the author was simply trying to patch up yet another glaring continuity problem created by the expanded universe series.

As far as the movie is concerned, it appears the jury's still out on that one. I personally can't tell. It seems to me that it should be a missile of some sort, but I can't tell. Only a letter from Lucas himself could actually confirm this.

As far as I'm concerned, the guys who put together this game have given you a set of stats... deal with it. Stop complaining, and adjust them as you need to. You're the GM / player... it's your game. I respect the opinions of the authors of the stats as much as I do my own. They may differ, but you have to find a way to cope with it. Either that or dont buy the books and just homebrew all your own stuff. The SotG stats are official. Yours aren't. They win.

grizzly
26 February 2002, 02:53 AM
I recall in the Xwing series of books,(the first 4 published Feb 1996 through to Feb 1997) Tycho made a comment about A wings being made in individual workshops and garages, and how his had wood panelling which allowed him to figure out approximately where it was built.(Sounds a bit like homebuilt/ultralight aircraft :) ) This type of small scale manufacture would account for variations in weapon arcs and systems. Just so long as it's not capable of wiping out the entire Imperial fleet while the pilot has his feet up on the console reading the holonet and drinking his caf... (ie make sure it's balanced)

Along the same lines.. although a slight tangent.. the Executor. What do the GMs (and players) think of the specs given in SotG? The text says the Executor SSD was 8 times the length of an ISD, which would make it 8 miles long (or 12,872 meters) whereas the stats run it at 8,000 meters long (5 miles).
theforce.net technical commentaries pages has a couple of pages on the SSD and the "5 mile fallacy". Has anyone seen this, and if the end result was a SSD 11 miles long, what sort of homebrew stats would GMs give it?

Armage Bedar
26 February 2002, 04:13 AM
I'm moving this to Rants and Raves, since that seems to be a much more appropriate venue for this thread.

hotten2
26 February 2002, 01:55 PM
in my pov some versions of awings have a pair of concussion and some dont....

Bosch_Kochal_The_Slicer
26 February 2002, 03:52 PM
it up in the Star Wars encyclopedia and it says that the A-wing does have Concussion missle launchers. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Grimace
26 February 2002, 05:03 PM
From what I've seen, about 50% of the published material out there will support one view, the other 50% will support another view.

Use whichever version you want. I, personally, prefer the "no concussion missiles" variety, as the A-wing is specifically an "interceptor", designed for quickness, not for heavy hitting.

If you want concussion missiles, add them in. I don't think you'll convince supporters of the other variety that they're wrong, so just do what you want.

Also, as someone mentioned prior, how can something that's technically considered "official" be wrong? Wouldn't the act of publishing something "official" make the stats correct? I know, it's nitpicky, but I thought I'd mention it.

All in all, do what makes you happy.

Tramp
28 February 2002, 07:39 AM
How can something that's techinically considered "official" be wrong?
It's happened before. In the Dark Side Source Book, it says that the Hssiss come from the planet Stenness. This is incorrect. If you've read the Tales of the Jedi comic book seris "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider" the planet is Ambria in the Stenness Node. Also in the NJO Source book it says that Corran Horn Can only use Telekinesis by using a Force point. If you've read "I Jedi" Corran needs to Absorbe Energy before he can use Telekinetic abilities. So, Yes something that is technically "official" can be wrong.

reliant
28 February 2002, 09:06 AM
Yeah so some A-WIngs have wood panelling... But do they come with cupholders? I know if I'm going into battle it might as well be in style and comfort...

Ash DuQuennes
6 March 2002, 05:47 PM
Well, if you have the a-gravity and acceleration compensators on, that had better be a swivelling cup holder, or a good travel mug (like I use on my Y-Wing, the Meanstreak. :)

But since it's not listed in any stats anywhere, I suppose your GM shouldn't allow it. :rolleyes:

Generally speaking: I wouldn't put too much stock in the Essential Guide...it doesn't actually list any numerical stats. Though extrapolation isn't impossible, it suffers from being overly subjective to the individual prejudices of the (various) interpreters.

Just an aside, since no one else brought it up: is it entirely ridiculous to suppose that the Class [restriction] listed for the Small Concussion Missile Launcher on pg. 15 of SotG is wrong? A typo?

Grand Admiral Jason
8 March 2002, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Grimace
Use whichever version you want. I, personally, prefer the "no concussion missiles" variety, as the A-wing is specifically an "interceptor", designed for quickness, not for heavy hitting.
Yeah, but the A-wing is also used for hit ans run attacks on IMperial convoys.

I've played both TIE Fighter Collector's Edition, X-Wing Collectors Eddition and TIE Fighter Vs. X-Wing. I've flown A-Wings and fought A-Wings. If I've flown them, then they're armed with concussion missiles, and samething with flying against them.
I do belive in the variety idea, because the A-Wing has no one manufacturing place, so each factory's A-wing is slightly different from an another's.