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dctodd
23 February 2002, 02:01 PM
During our last gaming session, our heroes (two Jedi Guardians, a Rodian Scoundrel, a Chiss Scout and a droid) were ambushed by a bunch of Peace Brigade thugs who just happened to be waiting for us with an e-web cannon. After defeating the two guys in control of the cannon, the Jedi turned the e-web on the remaining thugs, who were beating on the other heroes across the docking bay. The Jedi ended up killing the thugs with the cannon and kind of got a kick out of it (hey, who wouldn't love to turn an e-web against some Peace Brigaders? Damn traitors...) so the GM gave them a Dark Side Point. The Jedi were understandably upset, but I feel that the GM was in the right - Jedi need to be careful of what kind of choices they make, anger, agression and a casuality toward life all lead to the Dark Side. Just wanted to get some opinions on this situation. Thanks!


p.s. the GM eventually dropped the Dark Side point, but warned the Jedi to be more careful of their actions.

Matt Richard
23 February 2002, 02:10 PM
I dont think they should. The hereos were in danger so they were defending themselves. Getting a kick out of killing thugs with a e-web is different than killing out of anger. Yeah, a Jedi probably shouldn't think those types of things are funny but a DSP shouldn't be given if they do.

Well, thats my opinion, the first one there is.:D

BrianDavion
23 February 2002, 03:00 PM
I agree. a GM shouldn't give out DSPs just cause someone feels good about turning an enemies weapons on em. as a GM I wouldn't give a DSP, I might remind the PCs that agression leads to the darkside, but thats about it.

dragonseye
23 February 2002, 03:23 PM
This is one of the tougher questions since it all depends on how the character would react to the situation, as opposed to how the player reacts. The Players need to specifically express that they are the ones who think it's funny (and like you said, which player wouldn't find that funny) to turn the enemies weapon on the baddies, not they're characters' who think it's funny. Otherwise, if the GM sees that the Jedi is gaining pleasure by killing another being, then he should absolutely give out a DSP; the character is diving head on into the Dark Side, no questions about it.

Grimace
23 February 2002, 04:55 PM
A Jedi is expected to follow their code. I'm sure you've all seen it, but I will reiterate it here:

There is no emotion; there is peace
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge
There is no passion; there is serenity
There is no death; there is the Force

It states in one of the Star Wars game books that "the Light Side is created and sustained by life. The Jedi acts to preseve life. To kill is wrong."

Later, it goes on to say that "death is a stain upon his spirit."

So while a Jedi can't always be expected to passively defeat opponents, they also shouldn't be enjoying killing their opponents either. Joy at the way death is inflicted upon the enemy is a sign of demented passion, not something in line with the beliefs/thinkings of the Jedi.

I don't see any problem with the Jedi turning the E-web on the remaining thugs that were beating on his friends. His friends were in jeapordy, so he had to act, as not acting could also get him a DSP. The Jedi, however, should not have expressed any sort of pleasure at the way the enemy was defeated. It was a waste of life, something that Jedi base their beliefs in, so the methods should not be rejoiced over.

Now, from the standpoint of a player, I can see a player liking the way they chose to defeat the thugs...but if the player expressed ANY of those feelings in the scope of his character, that means that the character is taking pleasure as well.

So I say, give them a DSP. The act of killing was not the thing that gives them the DSP, but taking pleasure in the death of the thugs DOES. Players in the game will, of course, complain about such a thing, as they feel that their actions couldn't possibly be an "evil" trait. The GM knows best (in most cases) and I would support the allocation of the DSP.

Kas'ir Faywind
23 February 2002, 07:49 PM
I actually agree with the GM in question in tthe fact he should initially give the DSP. If the players didnt argue with some passion back it would stay. That way he would make sure they were sincere about being a Jedi and the code.
Then after the gave the arguement he should drop it.

In the end the Jedis know their limits and try not to press it too hard.

Wade Trenor
23 February 2002, 11:45 PM
I would agree with your GM, especially if the Jedi were pleased they had gunned down members of the Peace Brigade, rather than your run-of-the-mill baddies.

Corsair
24 February 2002, 02:41 PM
As a GM myself I would've allocated a DSP to the Jedi as well. There attitude was totally wrong .. they didn't kill to save .. more like kill lfor the satisfaction of killing .. definately a DSP.

Donovan Morningfire
24 February 2002, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't give the Jedi in question a DSP for their actions. After all, they acted to save their comrades. Using an e-web may not be the 'classic Jedi way,' but considering time frame, it works. I would also give the players a warning to not let such behavior become the norm.

Now if the Jedi went overkill on shooting the bad guys, that's another situation all together. What I mean by overkill is they kept firing even after the bad guys were defeated. Or if they acted in true anger, and just blasted bad guys that didn't threaten the rest of the party. In either case, a DSP would definitely be warranted.

The thing with the Jedi Code is not so much about not feeling emotions, but not letting them get the better of you. I'm sorry, but I would feel much joy turning a full-auto laser machinegun on a bunch of traitorous scum, and so would all but the most desensitized of beings. The warning to the players to not continue recklessly with such actions is enough.

darth maim
24 February 2002, 08:16 PM
Wow... for once I'm gonna have to go with a big resounding NO on the DSP... Even if the Jedi in question felt pleasure in having struck back at the peace brigade... In the timeline of the NJO it is not uncommon at all for Jedi to take a more aggressive stance and actually enjoy it. It isn't the death itself they enjoy but rather the fact that they are acting as heroes (see Kyp and company for more). Add to this the fact that it was in defense of comrades....

NO DSP.

darth maim
24 February 2002, 08:17 PM
By the way... this is the first time I've ever seen a poll attached to a DSP - yes or no question.... Great idea. Oh and I find it funny that it's exactly 50/50 right now...

Wade Trenor
25 February 2002, 01:39 AM
Reconsidering, it is a difficult choice to make.

If the Jedi were happy that the baddies were dealt with, then no, no DSP. However, if they took particular delight because they had gunned down the Peace Brigade members because they were part of the Peace Brigade, then the argument against is disputed.

Perhaps instead of giving them a DSP, begin tempting them, and use the template on this site for tempting players with the DS.

BrianDavion
25 February 2002, 06:42 AM
Kyp isn't the best example of a Jedi avoding the dark side:)

Jak Knife
25 February 2002, 08:23 AM
Intent is everything when it comes to the Jedi. If the Jedi were blasting to save their friends and comrades, then No. But from this discription, they took pleasure in doing so then a big resounding YES. Anyone taking pleasure in killing is EVIL, they are called serial killers and sociapaths. Did the bad guys need to die, probablely. Should the Jedi celibrate their death, never.
I know what you are saying, Luke celibarted after he destroyed the DS, but he was celibrating that his friends would live.

Ralzma02
25 February 2002, 09:28 AM
Personally, I think it is important to view if it was the character expressing their zeal for gunning the men down, or was it the player. If your games are completely seriously and always "in-character" than a Jedi should not recieve pleasure from killing, no matter what, and therefore a DSP. Because even though it was a self defense situation, gunning the men down with an E-Web IMO is an attack, like Yoda said, "defense never attack" because with a couple a jedi vs some thugs with the main threat was gone, the E-Web, I think the E-Web is over kill. Yet if the player said, "oh i gunned them down with an E-Web, hehe that was cool" I think you can let it slide, because the Jedi character might not have said that at al, and it is always fun to use an E-Web. But i feel either way your decision is sound. DSP.

loudanddeep
25 February 2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by dctodd
The Jedi ended up killing the thugs with the cannon and kind of got a kick out of it (hey, who wouldn't love to turn an e-web against some Peace Brigaders? Damn traitors...) so the GM gave them a Dark Side Point.

OK... Did the Jedi Guardian Get a BIG kick out of it, or did the PLAYER who is controlling the JEDI CHARACTER get a big kick out of it?

That is the question;
Yes, the PLAYER is 100% responsible for the actions of the character, but there is a big difference.
I play a jedi. I may really want to kill the bad guys in cold blood, or space the evil moff, or what ever.
But would I have my character do it? No, it does not fit his personality, or his morality.
Now, if I as a player, am pissed off at the adventure, and have my character take actions which the CHARACTER should not, then yes, maybe a dark side point is in order.
Players can try to rationalize anything.
however, if I happen to have my character do something which is fine with his morality, and I HAPPEN TO REALLY DIG IT, then that is fine too.

Luke killed about 1 million or so people on the death star. He was ok with it. If that was my character, I might think it was bad, but for the character I was playing, he felt it was a just trade off...us or them, and them are mostly bad guys.

If my jedi has to kill someone to save someone he will.
He will meditate about it, and maybe try to rectify it if he can.
Personally, I have no problem with it.
But that is me, NOT MY CHARACTER.

Dp

Sanjuro
25 February 2002, 12:14 PM
An e-web CANNON!!!

Yeh, I would give the jedi dark side points. In my opinion, the situation could have been dealt with without the use of the cannon, why squash an ant with a thermal detonator. It sounds to me like the jedi desired to kill the peace brigaders, especially since it was not them, but the rest of the party that was in immediate peril. B)

Doc Carlton
25 February 2002, 12:50 PM
I agree with the GM's desicion in this case. Yes, the Jedi in question was acting to save his fellow party members but no Jedi should take "pleasure" in killing another sentient being. For any Jedi to do so would be to start down the dark path.


I once had a similar situation in a game. The party was invovled in a bar fight (and enjoying themselves) and the Jedi in my game tried to stop it by attempting to cut her opponet's ear. She unfortunately fumbled, and I ruled that she killed the man instead. Even if she hadn't fumbled, my gut reaction was to give her a DSP, and after a brisk debate I stayed with my original ruling. Her "path of redemption" brought about some of the best game sessions my group has ever had.

Master Dao Rin
25 February 2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Donovan Morningfire
The thing with the Jedi Code is not so much about not feeling emotions, but not letting them get the better of you. I'm sorry, but I would feel much joy turning a full-auto laser machinegun on a bunch of traitorous scum, and so would all but the most desensitized of beings. The warning to the players to not continue recklessly with such actions is enough.

No DSP. They were saving lives.

The thing about the Code is the fact that the Jedi created this code, NOT the Force. The Force has its own set of rules, and you don't get DSPs just for breaking the Code, gentlebeings.

While the Jedi Order may frown upon a Jedi who smiles for blasting down baddies with a autocannon, the Force really could care less what you do with bad guys. As long as you don't turn into a bad guy in the process the a hero is fine, even if they act like a little off kilter.

In short, the Force doesn't care what ethics and morals a society or group creates around Its Principles. The Principles are what they are, and are clear cut and dry with a Light Side and a Dark Side.

Kentares
26 February 2002, 02:59 AM
I would give DSP to the Jedi´s.

If the Thugs were "assassin droids" or something I wouldn´t give then DSP (although I would pay attention if they came up with more joy from killing anyone).

Grimace
26 February 2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Master Dao Rin

In short, the Force doesn't care what ethics and morals a society or group creates around Its Principles. The Principles are what they are, and are clear cut and dry with a Light Side and a Dark Side.

Sadly, if the Force was "clear cut and dry", we wouldn't be having a discussion about this whole thing.

Perhaps that is what we need to invest time and effort in....determining what the Force considers "good" and "evil". Until we do that, we're all going to have varying interpretations of what is good and bad for an individual to do.

wolverine
26 February 2002, 10:43 AM
I would say no dsp, but mark it down somewhere, and if it looks like they are doing the same thing (taking pleasure in killing someone), then dsp all the way, WITHOUT THE WARNING!!

Neelah
1 March 2002, 07:13 AM
they used the e-web in the first place to kill those thugsand defend the others. the fact that they got a kick out of it doesnt really matter. especially because i think they reacted out of character

dgswensen
1 March 2002, 07:39 AM
This may be a goofy way of looking at it, but WWYD (What Would Yoda Do?) I have a hard time imagining Yoda, or Qui-Gon, or even Mace Windu, "getting a kick" out of gunning down some fellows. It seems to me anathema to everything the Jedi stand for. Killing in self-defense is one thing, but it doesn't seem to me that killing should ever be approached lightly for a Jedi. I also agree with Ralzma02's point that whether the player or the character enjoyed it is an important distinction.

However, I agree that this is a real borderline case. My advice would be to give him the DSP, then, in the next scenario or so, give him a prime opportunity to work it off with a heroic act. Temptation and redemption are part and parcel of the Star Wars spirit, after all. That way, everybody goes away happy.

(I will say, however, that the mental image of Yoda behind the sights of an E-Web, screaming "eat it you will!" is privately quite funny to me.)

Raiden
1 March 2002, 10:43 AM
I would not give the DSP but I would warn them that such hatred can lead them down the dark path.

On a side note I wouldnt just tell them as such, but with visions and dreams instead. The Dark side uses such opportunities to drawn in potential pawns.

Iris
1 March 2002, 10:49 AM
As a few others have stated, the answer really depends on whether the experessed joy was the players having a laugh or the characters having a laugh.

If the PLAYERS were the ones getting the kick out of it, no DSP. Let's face it, we all rejoice when we kill the baddy - especially in a glorious or unusual manner.

If the CHARACTERS were the ones that got a kick out of it, the DEFINATELY a DSP should be awarded.

I also agree they should be given the opportunity to redeem themselves. Redeption and Star Wars go hand in hand.

Kobayashi_Maru
1 March 2002, 05:09 PM
There is a difference between the Jedi PC getting a kick out of it and the player getting a kick out of it. That needs to be understood when it happens or confusion will follow.

But I personally wouldn't have given a DSP but as a player I probably would be understanding when I got it.

scourgicus
2 March 2002, 07:21 AM
I wouldn't give a DSP but would remind the players that such behavior is pretty un-Jedi like. Not that Jedi never use blasters or whatever but we don't see Qui-Gon doing that sort of thing - though you watch, Obi-wan will open up with an E-web in EpII...

That's my .02 creds.

phoenixbrose
2 March 2002, 10:24 AM
I vote for yes, but it does leave room to negotiate. Was the Jedi pleased because he killed the Peace Brigaders or because he saved his friends? If it was for killing the Peace Brigaders, yes, it's a DSP. A Jedi should take no jjoy from killing, even in self-defense. If it was because he saved his friends, then no DSP.

Gulmyros
2 March 2002, 10:48 PM
Hmmmm.... I've been on the fence about this one for a while now.

My first gut reaction was - Jedi enjoying killing? Give 'em a DSP.

But the more I look at it, I think it was probably more of the players (both Jedi) enjoying their own creativity at coming up with the E-Web plan in the first place, and then really enjoying that it paid off.

As to keeping Jedi in line, I think the fact that DSPs were discussed in relation to this little incident will do the trick. Sensing how close you almost came to the dark side becomes easier when the players actually had these feelings...

So ultimately I'd say no DSP, but let 'em know how close they almost came to earning one.

Kobayashi_Maru
3 March 2002, 08:07 AM
Maybe there could have been some in-game warning for the players so if it happens again definitely DSP. Instead of saying something out-of-game you could use a in game incident as a warning.

B.I.P
8 March 2002, 11:50 AM
There is no emotion; there is peace
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge
There is no passion; there is serenity
There is no death; there is the Force


if they cant handle the restrain of bieng a light jedi then in to the darkness they go!:raised: