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Bjorn
26 February 2002, 09:29 AM
I have a Force question.

I have a new player wanting to join my existing game. All the other players have character who are 5th Level, so I told him that he could make a charcter to match the others (5th Level). Since my campaign takes place 80 years before the Battle of Yavin, I told him all Classes are open for play. So, he flips through the book & decides that he wants to make a Multi-Class character...

He wants to make a Jedi Guardian (3rd Level) / Scoundrel (2nd Level). His idea is that his character didn't have what it took to make it as a Jedi & dropped out. He then joined a ship crew & realized that he could use the training that he had recieved from the Jedi to help him as a theif & smuggler.

Now here's were my questions start...

A: How would the Jedi order treat him, being a failed Padawan learner? Would they assign another Jedi to keep tabs on him? I told him that he can't have a Lightsaber because his Master took that from him & his character never learned how to construct one. I also told him that he can never raise his Jedi Class again, well, not without a Master.

B: Would he recieve Dark Side Points for using his Force Abilities to help him in his career as a smuggler & thief? The player said that he wouldn't be taking anything big, just an extra crate here or ship part there. Personally, I think his character would deserve a Dark Side Point.

C: If he makes includes the thief into his ex-Jedi's past, should I make him start with a Dark Side Point to represent the corruption that his character has shown?

I'd appreciate any help or advice.


Thanks,
Bjorn the Stout

Nazgul
26 February 2002, 10:43 AM
A: I agree about taking away the Lightsaber. I'm sure the Jedi order would be rather weary about letting one of their own leave. SO they may send some one to periodically check up on him to make sure he's not fallen to the Dark Side.

B: It depends upon what he is doing. If he is going to go around Force Gripping people to get things, then he gets DSPs, if he is just using his Move Silently/Hide rolls then probably not.

C: I wouldn't give him a DSP, just becuase you flunk out of school doesn't mean you earn a DSP. Force Adepts don't get DSPs for not being Jedi.

Well these are just how I'd handle things hope it helps...

Sanjuro
26 February 2002, 11:14 AM
The force is without morals. Simply stealing artifacts or lying to people using the force shouldn't result in a DSP. Unless the PC is actively using the force to inflict pain or injury on an individual, or is committing an act that would be considered evil, I would'nt give him dark side points.

Just because he is a theif, does not requisite dark side points. If it did, every pickpocket, smuggler, and catburgler from courescant to tatooine would be dark sider. B)

phoenixbrose
26 February 2002, 11:27 AM
For the DSPs, remember the ways of the dark side: Anger, Hate, Fear, Aggression. Also think of the seven deadly sins: Pride, Lust, Sloth, Gluttony, Wrath, Envy, and Greed. Use that as a basis and go from there. Also keep in mind that intent is the big thing from DSPs. What are the character's motivations for the actions he takes. The NJO books show a Jedi assisting in a smuggling / pirating operation and it didn't draw them to the dark side.

Winter
26 February 2002, 04:47 PM
Oh, I just know this is going to be a guy who uses Affect Mind to get anything he wants...

I doubt the Council has enough spare Jedi to keep one on the failed student but I'm sure they'd keep their eye on him... and if a Jedi happened to be in the same area as this failed student, they might stop by to check things out (and set things right if he's abusing his powers).

If he was a player in my group, I would let him know that he has abandoned his training at a very awkward time and he is a prime candidate for seduction to the dark side... and, as such, you would have to be as strict with his potential earning of DSP's as you would a fill-fledged Jedi. Taking a few levels and opting out does not absolve you of the moral element. Indeed, it may leave you MORE susceptible to it. A full Jedi may have the training and the mettle to overcome minor transgressions (like trying to wangle a deal on parts from a local junk dealer) but someone without that training may find himself looking at it in a completely different light.

BrianDavion
26 February 2002, 06:14 PM
let him start clean, he'll start earning DSPs down the road I suspect.

mind you just cause he's not a dark sider doesn't mean he won't be labeled a "person of intrest" by the Jedi

Gulmyros
26 February 2002, 06:57 PM
My question is why the player chose to level in Jedi in the first place. If you wanted to use Force powers in a smuggler's career, I'd have thought Force Adept a better choice.

No Code, no Jedi busy-bodies checking in on you, you get Alter first, and so on.

Not that I think you should try and change his character concept, I'm just wondering if it was Force skills that attracted the player, or the concept of a failed Jedi?

Donovan Morningfire
27 February 2002, 03:47 AM
The Jedi Order would probably keep minor tabs on this guy, but he wouldn't rate his own personal watch-Jedi. Although if he starts getting really out of hand, then it's a safe bet the Order will send a Knight to 'intervene.' Good call on the lightsaber, since if I remember right from the core rules that the until a Padawan builds their own, the lightsaber they start with is a loaner.

On DSPs for using Force skills and such, it would depend on which powers and what he does with them. Using Force Stealth to boost his sneaking around wouldn't be automatic DSPs, nor would using Enhance Ability to boost his Dexterity score for either flying, fighting, or sneaky-stuff. Affect Mind might, if used just to make things easier for the PC in question or to more easily swipe an extra crate here or starship part there for his own needs, earn a DSP or three.

As far as starting out with a DSP goes, it depends on the reason for the player's 'flunking out.' If it was just due to total lack of commitment/aptitude, then probably not. But if it was due to something more sinister, maybe. Talk it over with the player and see how he feels. If he's going concept character (which it sounds like he is since he took Jedi Guardian as opposed to Force Adept), he may have some suggestions on the matter, and may want one or two to start with. Of course, if he truly acts the part of a 'scoundrel,' he'll be earning plenty along the way :)

BillyBeanbag
27 February 2002, 11:35 AM
Okay, let's break this down logistically. I would be willing to bet that there are a fair number of drop-outs from the Jedi. Just think about how strict they are, and the demands they place upon the people who they train. It is no wonder they like to start training young, for then they won't have the emotional attachments to pull them away from their center. (Everyone remembers Luke rushing off to cloud city right? When a 3 or 4 year-old has a vision of similar nature, they don't go rushing off to be heroes - but I digress)

I really don't think the Jedi would have that much of an ability to keep track of all of their failures... they just try to encourage them to go into Ag Corp or Med Corp so they can find them easier if they need them.

Using the force to help you smuggle shouldn't garner any dark side points unless you do so in a spectacular way. It's different using your force skills to hide or convince a custom's agent to look away, than it is to use Force Grip or the like against someone solely to save your cargo.

Ultimately I think you're handling it correctly... except you need to keep tempting the ex-Jedi with the dark side... encourage the fall! (it's fun and tasty! ;) )

Master Dao Rin
27 February 2002, 09:35 PM
Personally, I don't think that there are all that many failures with Jedi Hopefuls - I'm sure they just keep indoctrinating them until they succeed or die of old age! :) Remember, the path of the Jedi is a life choice, and you can't really get "off" it - its like being a warrior or a farmer - once a soldier, always a soldier (same with farmer).

However, that being said, this is a game so naturally players want to be difficult. :) I would say the Jedi Order wouldn't let failed padawans go too far - they just get shunted off into library duties or live the rest of their days as daycare nannies for Jedi babies. :D So, obviously this guy had to really do something to get the boot, either he ran away without permission or he did something so heinous that the Order felt that he was better off away from malleble Jedi juniors.

So, you're instinct to give DSPs might not be so far off the mark - however, I would give the player some minor "gifts" for each DSP you give - the first one which allows him to be free from the Order's watchful gaze; any others would be at the GM's discretion (like allowing him to get some extra starting cash, in exchange for a DSP).

The Force doesn't care what you do when using its powers, so you get DSPs as usual for things you do that are Dark Side-ish.

Everything else you're doing looks fine with me.

blitzkreig
28 February 2002, 12:08 AM
A: How would the Jedi Order treat him being a failed Padawan learner?

i would assume that posting to the agricorps or some other government branch would be a matter of choice and not a 'do or die' scenario. imagine the scandal if it were learned that the Jedi Order gacked those washouts that couldn't quite cut it as Jedi and refused service in the agricorps ("you refuse to be a farmer, then eat concentrated force energy infidel..." probably not a good image). i think that the Jedi Code would forbid that sort of culling and that the Jedi would 'encourage' the young failure to join a group where they can more easily be observed than letting the run amok.

B: Would he recieve Dark Side Points for using his Force Abilities to help him in his career as a smuggler & thief?

while the Jedi Code says a lot about using the force for personal reasons, look at the multitude of thieves and smugglers in the star wars universe. i refue to believe that they all harbor some sort of dark personality just because they nicked a few material things. if you assign darkside points to the jedi for his part in stealing stuff (since i think that affecting the minds of customs officials for fun and profit would not necessarily be a bad thing) then you will need to be ready to give one out to every player with larcenous urges. roleplaying games can always run to the old saying, "what is good for the goose is good for the gander." wanna talk about a pc gripe, the situation that follows:

jedi guardian/scoundrel and some not force sensitive character steal a ship part and the jedi gets a dark side point, but the non force sensitive doesn't. the minute that the player finds out that this sort of separation exists he will be none to happy...

i agree that you should make the character more responsible for his actions than the other characters as using his powers to do bad things is going to quickly amass darkside points. you have to assume that, with a character like this, there is a certain amount of gray area with the force. while the force realy doesn't care if you steal and use your power to do it, the force does care if ou use your power to kill.

C: If he makes includes the thief into his ex-Jedi's past, should I make him start with a Dark Side Point to represent the corruption that his character has shown?

personally, penalizing him because he didn't cut it as a jedi is only saying that the failure is the problem, not the reason he didn't make it. while i agree that the force adept would have been a better choice as a class, the jedi guardian is a more soldierly type and provides some interesting bonuses to the scoundrel class.

this presents some interesting roleplaying situations and i am sure that if he left of his own accord and found a new teacher (say a handy sith holocron or other form of teaching, i.e a force adept...) that he could resume the training on a somewhat different level than before as any master willing to take on one as troubled as he would have to be very good for the Jedi Order to fully back the master's decision.

Kayle Skolaris
28 February 2002, 05:58 AM
Hrmmm... Two words: Aurra Sing. If the Jedi don't bother keeping an eye on her (and apparently they do not) then this guy won't even be missed. Would he get DSPs for smuggling? I'd say it depends on what he's smuggling and whether he knows what it is in his holds or not. In many stories I've read involving smugglers, the smuggler doesn't always know what he's moving. Hell, in real life smugglers don't always know what they're moving. Many a shocked felon who thought they were just getting liquor or porn past customs has come to find out the hard way that they were really carrying a kilo of heroin on them. If he's moving banned holotapes, typical porn, liquor, and similarly harmless material then I'd say no, he doesn't get a DSP. If he's smuggling snuff films, harmful exploitation porn (child porn, for instance), hardcore drugs, or weapons and he's aware of it, then I'd seriously consider giving him a DSP. He's aiding and abetting Evil as opposed to mere Vice, and that means something where the Force is concerned. If he's smuggling slaves, and this is just what I'd do, hit him with a DSP for each slave in his hold.

bmenges
11 March 2002, 12:30 PM
My thought is this. If he is no longer a Jedi, why would the code still apply to him? And even if the code does apply to him, it wouldn't give him a DSP for using the force to affect someones mind to make his life easier, it will just make his character annoying when you have to role the dice every time he speaks. (I know because that is what my own character was doing). I realize that it is probably a bit late, but FA would have been a better class for him to take simply due to alter and sense being given at 1st and 2nd levels, hence, affect mind, which would be extremely useful for a thief and smuggler. DSPs are more for when a PC tries to bring harm to another sentient being with the power of the force, or commits an act of violence against a helpless opponent.