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Ash DuQuennes
7 March 2002, 02:27 PM
Where in the heck did WEG ever get the notion that the Y-Wing was older, slower, less maneuverable, less capable in any way, shape or form than other fighters?

The first post-movie Star Wars novel was Alan Dean Foster's "Splinter of the MInd's Eye." Just re-read it, and I find no mention that the Y-Wing is a lesser vessel.

After The Empire Strikes Back came Brian Daley's (most excellent, IMHO) Han Solo series. Just got done re-reading them, and guess what? No single mention of the Y-Wing being a lesser vessel.

The three movie novelisations have no mention of the Y-Wing being a lesser vessel.

The first I can ever recall reading or otherwise seeing it asserted that the Y-Wing was a lesser vessel was in 1988, when I first laid eyes upon the original RPG and RPG Sourcebook.

And yet Lucas' own production notes (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/art/ilmmglt1.jpg) (courtesy of Dr. Curtis Saxton's most excellent Technical Commentaries; as well, some of you PC gamers might recognize the "MGLT" term) from Return of the Jedi verify the equal capabilities of the Y-Wing.

Sure, it may be a bit slower, or less maneuverable, or whatever (few weapons systems are good at everything; those that are are typically hideously expensive and maintenance nightmares); it may also be a bit faster, more maneuverable, or whatever.

But why did WEG decide to denigrate it so badly, such that the EU mythos has developed around the Y-Wing being a slow, wallowing antique/flying coffin? Only in Dark Horse's Mandatory Retirement, from the Rogue Squadron series, do the Y-Wings seem capable of doing anything other than getting blown up by TIE Fighters or screaming for X-Wings to save them.

FEH! says I! Y-Wings RULE! Death to our X-Wing oppressors! Death to the Malevolent Story Guide!

Long Live Gold Squadron!

blitzkreig
7 March 2002, 03:11 PM
i think that the x-wing is a good space superiority "fighter" and that the y-wing fills the void between the fighter class and bomber class attack craft. honestly though, the y-wing serves the less glamorous function of attacking and raiding supply convoys and try as you might, attacking supply ships just isn't as glamorous as an x-wing dogfighting with a TIE fighter (seemingly the premise of most of the novel space combat from what i have gathered. i don't read the eu stuff much myself).

don't get me wrong i really liked the x-wing combat in the movies and understand the allure of seventeen million products based on the x-wing because it was easliy identifiable with the star wars universe and was one of the ships that you saw the most in the movies (try pulling a b-wing out of the dagobah swamp yoda :D ).

maybe WEG put all its effort into the x-wing and came up short on time when they released the stats for the y-wing and forgot to fix it later?

or better yet, maybe the WEG designers were all x-wing fascists and had it out for the other types of starfighters in the game. sort of a 'death to the infidel' opinion for other types of starfighters and this was their way of secretly making sure that the y-wing lost in a match against the x-wing.

anyway, the first 2 paragraphs were mostly serious the rest was just the paranoid delusions of a caffeinated mind

Durian Keldrona
7 March 2002, 03:22 PM
Part of it likely come from the Lucasfilm archive sketch of the relative speed of the different ships and i think the Y-wing was slightly slower than a X-wing. the other thing is that in general Bombers are more stable<have to be cant bomb accurately if you bobbing all over the place> Stable means less responsive to controls< IE wants to keep going straight> which is what you want in a bomber. Fighters on the other hand you want to be able to turn on a dime. being able to turn quickly means it needs to be less stable. you can have one or the other. Now in space this wouldnt matter except that the manuevers from Star wars are from WWII which is aircraft not space craft.

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
7 March 2002, 03:45 PM
If I remember correctly, the Y-wings were out before the X-wing & A- Wings... But they've also had many improvements since their initial release.

The Y wings aren't as fast.. but it's still a fighter that can be deadly in skilled hands - 1 on 1 are pretty good odds. They're just outmached if a swarm of tie interceptors or faster are on their tail... They're best strengths are for taking down larger craft's sheilds and disabling the craft ...

Tie's don't have any sheilding and they're vulnerable to ion canons, their systems degrade with each shot and a only few hits render ties dead in the water... Thats where the Y-Wing has the advantage: disable & kill

they're faster than B-wings and still have a decently armored hull and strong shields...

Rick Vogt
7 March 2002, 05:49 PM
My vote went to "they got it close enough".

This is another one of those.....It's true from a certain point of view lines Obi uses.

The Y-wing isn't necessarily a lesser vehicle than the rest...but, for most intents and purposes it is not the correct choice. I mean seriously...are you really wanting to dogfight a Tie Interceptor with it??

On the other hand.....would you want to go on a bombing run with an A-wing?? Thus, my point.

So, in my mind they got it close enough.......a lot of what is written is just looked at lightly by those writing it....we have to figure out what is right and what isn't......without letting our personal feelings about certain things clout our judgement.

Ash DuQuennes
7 March 2002, 06:35 PM
Rick, Blitz: first of all, y'all know how to kill a good rant. Or at least a mediocre rant. And I'll have you know, Mr. Blitzkrieg, that I am not caffeinated!

Show me the evidence! I showed you mine, now show me yours, dagnabit!

Durian: the F/A-18 Hornet is a fighter-bomber, and is one of the meanest birds we have in a turn-an'-burn, maybe second only to the F-16 in maneuverability. Being an attack craft is no basis for restricting or deciding that a craft's maneuverability is/should be less than an air [space] superiority fighter.

The P-38 was less maneuverable than the P-51, and yet was one of the most respected and feared aircraft amongst both German and Japanese fighter pilots, and that was even before they licked the problem of compressability at near-mach limits!

My point is, the only info we have on the Y-Wing comes from WEG. WEG says it's older; WEG says it's slower, less maneuverable; WEG says it's fire control ratings are less than; WEG says that their Ion Cannons rarely work....

Question the source! That is what I'm saying! Read Fork Tailed Devil: The P-38 by Martin Caidin for some perspective and a good analysis of comparitive qualities of fighter craft for a good analogue of the SW craft.

Tramp
8 March 2002, 09:25 AM
The Y-Wing is the equivalent of the F-111 fighter/bomber or the A-10 Thunderbolt. Neither are all that fast or manuverable. However, they both carry a mean punch against large, heavily fortified targets, which is what they were designed to do. The X-Wing was pattered after the F-16, a air superiority fighter. While the A-Wing is closer to the F-18 Hornet, which, by the way, is an interceptor.

BrianDavion
8 March 2002, 01:08 PM
actually I'd say the X-wing is more like the F-18, a well abalcned fighter/bomber and the A-wing is based on the F-16 a small light and agile fighter

Durian Keldrona
8 March 2002, 01:47 PM
I have to agree with Brian
The y wing is like the F-4 Phantom. While in its day it was a very formidable aircraft and still is used for Wild Weasel missions it has become antiquated compared to the F-18 and F-16 which are newer aircraft.

Gulmyros
8 March 2002, 02:15 PM
If I recall, the Y-Wing had been in service for some time before the battle of Yavin. By contrast, the design team from Incom defected to the Rebellion with the X-Wing plans (and maybe a prototype? can't remember) a relatively (note: relatively) short time before the battle of Yavin.

So I think many people look at the Y-Wing like they look at a car from the mid 80's. Reliable, dependable, gets you where you want to go, but new cars are "better" than the older ones.

Next point.
My point is, the only info we have on the Y-Wing comes from WEG. WEG says it's older; WEG says it's slower, less maneuverable; WEG says it's fire control ratings are less than; WEG says that their Ion Cannons rarely work....All the things WEG lists lower than an X-Wing, I'd prefer to be lower. Given that the Y-Wing functions more like a bomber (tho not exactly) and the X-Wing is a space superiority fighter.

Older: nothing you can do about that.
Slower: Fine by me. Most targets in a Y-Wing's mission profile will be slower than the fighter - transports, capital ships, surface targets...
Less maneuverable: Also fine. Look at those same three targets - not exactly dancing around, are they?
Less fire control: I prefer this. I'm not chasing squints in this bird. If you're in an X-Wing, the pilot NEEDS more fire control. In the Y-Wing, your targets are much less likely to jink at the last second, and your fire control computers can be less sophistaced, less expensive, and easier to use.
Finicky ion cannons: Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard that, so I can't refute the claim by you or WEG.8o

Anyway, to a point this is like saying that a hand grenade is worse than a land mine. They both blow up, they just have different roles, uses, and therefore - stats.

Ash DuQuennes
8 March 2002, 03:30 PM
You are all missing the point:

where did WEG ever get their info that the Y-Wing is as they described?

Their capsule is not supported anywhere in any preceding source of SW material. Everything every one of you keeps saying is nothing more than a reiteration of the WEG capsule. It's not supported by canon.

Hence my vote of "they pulled it out of their fundament. Here's my reasoning why:

WEG designed the original SW RPG as a hero-based dramatic system, wrapped tightly in the whole background mythos and pathos. Heroes do Good Things, Protect The Weak, Defend Justice, yada-yada.

The Bad Guys are always Evil; the always do Very Bad Things.

Players can burn Character Points and "Force Points" to alter the outcome of a scenario. Villains can do likewise.

It's "Drama."

And who's the Hero of Heroes? Luke Skywalker. Everything good and noble flows from him. He's more Arthurian than King Arthur. He has the best heart, the best "steed," the most powerful "sword." All other Heroes aspire to be like him.

So far, I have no problem with this. But I do have a problem with it inasmuch as it contradicts previous canon material.

From the standpoint of the material available to WEG when they designed the original SW RPG, the Y-Wing could have been a more capable craft. It's altogether plausible, (not to say that it was, or even should be, just that it is, given the material available at the time, possible) and would also explain why there were fewer of them in the fleet of fighters attacking the Death Star at Yavin.

Think of it like this. You're a Rebellion fighting a Galactic Empire. You take what weapons you can get, or that you can build.

Looking at them from the outside, you see that they have more of one type of weapon than another. Think of the possible logical conclusions you can draw from that datum alone.

1. The less numerous system is less available to them (smaller production numbers).
2. The less numerous system costs more to buy.
3. The less numerous system is less effective.
4. The less numerous system is less efficient (maintenance, logistics, etc.)

So why did WEG decide to make it a lesser vessel? Because the big Hero of Heroes didn't fly one? Maybe he didn't fly one because he was a less experienced/qualified pilot to do so?

I'm asking ofr some evidence other than WEG's description/capsule that the Y-Wing was/is a lesser vessel.

Rick Vogt
8 March 2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Ash DuQuennes
Rick, Blitz: first of all, y'all know how to kill a good rant. Or at least a mediocre rant. And I'll have you know, Mr. Blitzkrieg, that I am not caffeinated!


:o sorry......just trying to give another view on the subject.........but, the evidence thing :raised: ...well....I think it is provided in what I said.

Personally I like the y-wing.....it's the bulldog of the fleet..........just not what i'd want to be in.....in certain situations.

One last note.........you ever fly the y-winig in Rogue Squadron??? Man, that's one of the hardest missions to come away with a gold medal.

Reverend Strone
8 March 2002, 04:48 PM
You know I'm sure that it all boils down to some guys at WEG sitting around a table twenty years ago trying to come up with ways to characterise the different spacecraft for the purposes of adding dimension to their game. I doubt whether much more thought went into it other than a simple attempt to give the Y-wing a different flavour from the X-wing.

I can imagine the conversation-

"Hey, what if the Y-wing were like an older ship and the X-wings are the new big thing?"

"Yeah. They do look kinda beat up next to the X-wings. Great idea Dude. Write it up."

They're just trying to invent some kind of vaguely interesting backstory that fits with the Rebellion theme of not being too rich in capital and resources. I doubt whether it wa sany conscious attempt to make out the Y-wings are some dinky old rust buckets.

What's happened since is that as subsequent movies and the EU invent new ships, they tend to out uber each other every time, with newer and faster ships replacing the old for the sake of plot devices or whatever, and then all of a sudden the old Y-wing is left as this outdated old crate that it was never concieved of ever being originally.

That'd be my take on it. Thoughts?

Tramp
8 March 2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
actually I'd say the X-wing is more like the F-18, a well abalcned fighter/bomber and the A-wing is based on the F-16 a small light and agile fighter

actually George Lucas has been quoted as saying that te X-Wing is patterned after the F-16, which is anair superiority fighter. the F18 isn't a Fighter/Bomber. According to Military classification, it's an interceptor.. The F-111 was a Fighter/Bomber like the B-Wing, while the Y-Wing would be analogus with the A-10 Thunderbolt.

Ash DuQuennes
8 March 2002, 05:12 PM
Tramp: the F/A-18 is not an interceptor.

Navy Fact File: F/A-18 Hornet (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/aircraft/air-fa18.html)

And, from Boeing: F/A-18 Hornet (http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18/flash.htm)

That's not to say that that particular mission is outside of its profile. But the Hornet was never designed as a purpose-built interceptor like the Mig 25.

revstrone probably comes closest to answering the question. But it still doesn't address the question of what factual basis they had for making those decisions. If they simply did as revstrone described, then that would qualify as "Pulling it from their fundament."

And really folks, some of y'all are taking me way too seriosly (more than I take myself, at least). :p

I suppose the frowning smiley (oxymoron?) at the beginning of my OP may lead you to the conclusion that I'm really upset over this.

Nah; just vaguely annoyed at best, and occasionally PO'd by people who feel the need to denigrate this craft to prop up their own frail ego after playing X-Wing or Rogue Squadron.

Gulmyros
8 March 2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Ash DuQuennes
You are all missing the point:

where did WEG ever get their info that the Y-Wing is as they described?

Their capsule is not supported anywhere in any preceding source of SW material. Everything every one of you keeps saying is nothing more than a reiteration of the WEG capsule. It's not supported by canon.
< snip >
From the standpoint of the material available to WEG when they designed the original SW RPG, the Y-Wing could have been a more capable craft. It's altogether plausible, (not to say that it was, or even should be, just that it is, given the material available at the time, possible) and would also explain why there were fewer of them in the fleet of fighters attacking the Death Star at Yavin.
< snip >
So why did WEG decide to make it a lesser vessel? Because the big Hero of Heroes didn't fly one? Maybe he didn't fly one because he was a less experienced/qualified pilot to do so?

I'm asking ofr some evidence other than WEG's description/capsule that the Y-Wing was/is a lesser vessel. Well the problem with finding info to support or disprove the first installment of RPG rules, is that it's the first place they're done. So unless you get to look at the designer's notes, you're kinda up a creek.

Part of the problem is that the WEG folks used material that was not cannon to interpret their stats for the first sourcebook. Go get your copy of that first edition sourcebook and turn to the back, page 142, and read the bibliography. Some of that stuff is good, some of it is bunk. So who knows where this got started.

But as to your theory that the X-Wing is better because Luke flew it - I was going to suggest that myself. It's typical extrapolation. Like you said, he has the best heart, the best sword, and it stands to reason that Lucas would put the big hero figure on the best horse. Just like Han doesn't fly around in a crappy freighter, just like R2-D2 isn't a mediocre astromech, just like Leia isn't a farmer's daughter but a Princess, just like Chewbacca isn't kinda strong, he's WOOKIE strong... and so on.

It's space opera. The good is REALLY good, and the bad is REALLY bad. The good guys smile a lot and the bad guys are ugly and make frowny faces. :) Luke wears white, Vader wears black. The Rebels win, and the Empire loses. No big surprises.

So to infer that the hero flies the "best" or "better" fighter isn't so much of a leap.

And let's not forget that LFL had to sign off on the book. I'm sure if they'd wanted the Y-Wing to be the super-fighter for the Rebellion, it would have been... ;)

Grand Admiral Jason
9 March 2002, 04:50 PM
Here-ye, here-ye. Let us just go up and write directly to WEG and ask them about the Y-Wing.

reliant
12 March 2002, 05:23 AM
Not to start the whole video game debate again, but if you ever played X-Wing (Or X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter), the Y-Wing WAS slower and less manuverable than the X's and A's. I don't think it takes away from the Y however because I never really saw it as a dogfighter anyway. I never played the WEG version of SW, but it always has irritated me that the Y gets a bad rap for no real reason. So it's old... Old? No, I'd say more like tried and true. Slow? Not that much slower than the other ships, and since it gets an ion turret I'd say it makes up for speed with punch. Going back to the games for a second, I used to use a Y with GREAT results against ties AND interceptors. I think a lot of it depends on pilot skills. If you are a good pilot and know the capabilities of your craft, you can do things that no one would believe... Case and point, Han and the Millenium Falcon. In the NJO books, it out-manuvers the vong coralskippers! I just think the A's and X's give pilots the advantage that they don't have to be as good because the ship gives them a little bit of an edge.

Ash DuQuennes
12 March 2002, 08:29 AM
Well said, reliant. I never really had a beef with WEG. I like their 2ed. rules, to such an extent that I already had incorporated certain aspects back into WotC's d20 rules (like sensors, for instance).

My general beef was the "bad rap" (as reliant put it) that had crept up in the EU. Y'all consider this as an argument. "Engineereed Obsolescence" is rare in the SW universe. Things are built to not only last, but with upgrade and extension of life-cycle in mind. Economically, this tends to make sense, especially if you're the one building and marketing the "upgrade packages" for your line of merchandise (be they data pads, land speeders, light freighters, starfighters or capital ships).

The EU source Guide to Vehicles and Vessels lists Koensays as a major after-market parts provider, IIRC, with about a 70% market share. This is outstanding! Our only analogue might be Microsoft. As such, it makes limited sense to me as a player that their own product, the Y-Wing, would have never been upgraded to "modern standards."

It can resonably be assumed that a piece of hardware can only be upgraded so much. Initial design considerations certainly play a major part in determining how much any item can be upgraded before advancements in technology render further upgrades unteneble or economically unfeasible.

Our current PCs are a fine example. With proper engineering, it might be possible for you to have to buy only one PC, and then upgrade it as new advancements come out for the next 10, 20 years. It is possible if it is designed that way initially. But our consumer turnaround economy prohibits that.

The SW universe doesn't seem to work that way to any great extent. Hence my beef with the Y-Wing being "left behind" for newer craft, which bear all of the earmarks of "plot devices." Why hasn't anyone written a novel in which an upgraded version of the Y-Wing was introduced? It seems to me a case of both "herd mentality" and "let's pile on the underdog" to varying degrees.

Unfortunately, the EU has progressed to the point that turnaround, if any author even decided to address such a thing, is nigh impossible. I was heartened to read about Kyp Durron's reconstituted squadron in Agents of Chaos II including Y-Wings, and their holding their own against Vong Coralskippers.

Who knows? With the Vong generally kicking butt everywhere, maybe these old warhorses will get new life breathed into them as the New Republic needs every weapons it can get its hands on.

Bear in mind: this is a rant page. It needn't necessarily "make sense." And, as has been pointed out, we as players/GM are free to include/exclude whatever aspects of the SW EU as we desire. Noted and accepted, inasmuch as our own games are concerned.

In my SW universe, the Y-Wing was upgraded on par with X-, A- and B-Wings. The E- and K-Wings were still introduced, giving the New Rep. a good mix of fighters to mix-and-match in assembling task forces and such. It's still slower and less maneuverable than an X-Wing (as it's still a fighter-bomber), but it is a good, flexible "middle" craft. It's weaponry, fire control, shields and hull have been upgraded. It can mix it up with other fighters, provided it isn't grossly outnumbered. It can tackle medium/large targets, and soften up bigger targets for other fighters to finish off. It's speed and ion cannons lets it serve well at system defense and anti-piracy/anti-smuggling operations.

Like any other strike craft, it is vulnerable when it has to "come straight and level" to deliver heavier ordnance like torpedoes. But so is the B-Wing. For that matter, so are X-Wings when they fire torpedoes. Which is why X-jocks still grumble when they have to fly escort and keep fighters off of the Y- and B-Wing's backs during attack runs.

Which is why X-jocks, like naughty puppies, have to have their noses occasionally smacked to remind them that there's more to winning a battle, a war, than flying around and jauntily blowing up enemy fighters.

Nova Spice
12 March 2002, 05:31 PM
Well, I certainly have to give credit to the Y-wing. Its as venerable as they come and the New Republic certainly wouldn't still be using them if they weren't effective. Basically I believe the Y-wing is treated more poorly due to the fact that in ANH, every Y-wing pilot got vaped at the Battle of Yavin (i.e. Pops, Dutch, and Tiree). Since WEG had no proof that Y-wings were slower, older, and less maneuverable, they probably just went with what they saw.
I like them personally, although I prefer the B-wing to anything, but nevertheless I understand your argument on why they are treated like nerfs. ;)

Ash DuQuennes
12 March 2002, 08:34 PM
Well, I'm glad one person doesn't think I'm an over-caffeinated paranoid delusional whatever. :p

I actually did a post-battle analysis of the Battle of Yavin in a previous thread. Essentially, the Rebels could've taken it in a cakewalk if it hadn't been for Darth Vader. For the purposes of this argument/analysis, you have to disregard storytelling/dramatic conventions and tension heightening plot devices (because the real reason the Y-Wings bit it was to establish how vulnerable anyone making the trench run was).

It goes like this: Tarkin knows the Rebels have the Death Star plans, but has supreme confidence in his "technological terror." Vader, OTOH, knows that the Force can sometimes be fickle. Or perhaps he does his Future Sight and sees the Rebel victory as a possible outcome, with decent odds of success. So he gets a technical analysis done up toot-sweet, and finds out about a certain thermal exhaust port.

As the Rebel fighters engage the Death Star, he spies a flight of Y-Wings heading for the northern polar trench housing said thermal exhaust port. So he grabs his wingmen and takes off after them.

The three members of Gold Squadron commence their run. Hitting a small target like that, which is perpendicular to the axis of approach, is tricky, so they're loafing along at "optimal attack velocity" and get vaped.

This nominal velocity may or may not be slower or faster than an X-Wing's, as other than WEG's stats, we have no real idea of the relative fire control capabilities of a Y-Wing. But consider this: Y-Wings were chosen to make the first trench run. This may be indicative of superior fire control, or greater pilot experience in making torpedo runs, or a combination of both.

But since the Rebels don't have much loiter time over the Death Star, would it make any kind of logical, tactical sense to lead your do-or-die attack with a less-than-optimal craft?

Because other than a frame-by-frame analysis of every trench run by someone with really sharp eyes and some form of measuring tools, there's no way of knowing by the evidence actually presented on-screen whether a Y-Wing is truly slower than an X-Wing or not.

Another thing: the best guesstimate I've seen of the composition of the Rebel fighter force attacking the Death Star was 24 X-Wings and 6 Y-Wings. Simple math will tell you that the Y-Wings fared better than the X-Wings, suffering 83.33% casualties compared to the X-Wing's 91.67% assuming composition/count is correct (although there is some circumstantial evidence in the post-battle hangar scene that more fighters actually survived than we saw on the screen, right before the Death Star went Boom, but otherwise gives no indication of what fighter types those may have been).

So I don't buy WEG's stats; never did, never will. Dutch (Gold Leader) may have been overconfident in the rest of the fighter group's ability to lure enemy fighters away from the northern polar regions. So instead of going balls-out to get to their target, they chose "optimal attack velocity" to ensure the greatest chance of a first-round hit on the target. But Vader saw through the attack plan, and intercepted and destroyed Gold Group.

I'm also left wondering why no other fighters flew "high cover" for the three Y-Wings. If nothing else, they may have drawn surface fire away from Gold Group. Think of what three fighters flying above and slightly behind (outside the trench) the attacking fighters could've done to Vader and his wingmen. Maybe not destroy them, but keep them occupied enough to let Dutch or Pops have clean, undistracted shots at the exhaust port.

There's a lot of RPG and EU material about the Y-Wing that doesn't add up when a logical, tactically-minded approach is taken towards them. It is only by storytelling/dramatic convention that the Y-Wing can, IMHO, be relegated to its lowly status.

A convention I refused to follow.

Gulmyros
12 March 2002, 09:26 PM
Hey Ash, it looks like you've got yet another Y-Wing fan to add to your ranks. And he's got some weight to throw around, too.

Check out Owen Stephens' Y-Wing praise up in the General SW-RPG forum:

Favorite Starfighters (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5890)

reliant
13 March 2002, 04:59 AM
Well said Ash... The whole good/evil point you made was great. Also, I agree with your ideas on the modifications of Y's. Since they are the oldest I would think that there would be TONS of parts around for them. Think of cars today, for the more popular classic cars there are lots and lots of custom parts you can buy to modify them. It would make sense to me that the SW universe would work the same way. Since the Y's have been around for a while, it would make sense to me that there would be lots of modifications out there for them. Faster engines, better shields, weapons systems, you name it, I would imagine it's out there. Also for the arguement that Y's are fickle or prone to being broken, I would think that after all this time someone would find a way to fix that... So MAYBE (for the sake of arguement) a STOCK Y-Wing is slower etc. than an X-Wing or other fighters, but with the right modifications I would think it would be a close competitor.

Ash DuQuennes
13 March 2002, 11:02 AM
Another thing to consider: as far as Y-Wings being descibed as "maintenance headaches for Rebel techncians," I can kind of see how that might be so.

If the Y-Wing is indeed an older craft, and has seen widespread use amongst planetary and sector constabularies and maybe corporate security forces, then it is altogether possible that there are, as described by WEG, literally dozens, if not hundreds, of variants.

Considering the technological and industrial diversity, all of these variants might have different internal configurations. A Rebel tech approaching a Y-Wing with tools-in-hand may not have any idea of how many upgrades and modifications that particular craft had gone through. It's internal arrangements and parts may be significantly different from the Y-Wing sitting right next to it.

AS the Rebels were at least material-deficient (if not cash deficient as well), then a program of "re-baselining" their Y-Wing fleet would be untenable during the Empire-Rebellion conflict. Then, considering the state of almost constant warfare since the New Republic was established (with the boogey-man of the week apperaing with every new novel), it is also altogether possible that it was not time/cost efective for the New Republic to re-baseline when they could purchase standardized, fresh-off-the-manufacturing-line fighters.

This line of reasoning breaks down for two reasons: logistics and the A-Wing.

Logistically speaking, if the Y-Wing fleet was indeed that diverse in variants/composition, it would have been logistically impossible for the Rebellion to keep them operating, much less to try to aquire the myriad different parts they would have required. If they had attempted to do so, then a re-baselining project would have been a necessity, if only to simplify maintenance and logistics.

Then consider the A-Wing. The A-Wing was cobbled together from myriad parts and suppliers in Rebel Maintenance bays, from dozens of different locations. Where the A-Wing is a specialized craft, and the Y-Wing is multi-purpose, it may make more economical sense to upgrade/baseline a craft that will give you "more mileage for the credit," such as the Y-Wing.

The only counter to that argument was the fact that the A-Wing was never produced in the quantities as the Y-Wing; therefore, a re-baseline project for the A-Wing fleet would cost much less, as there are fewer actual A-Wings in the inventory to have to upgrade/re-baseline. The same argument was applied to the B-Wing, as well.

I really have no counter to that argument, other than the fact that it completely overlooks the private sector. But it still fails to address the logistical problem of having too many different variants of the Y-Wing I raised above.

Something I did in character: after my character (Ash DuQuennes) retired from the New Republic Military, he aquired the operating capital to purchase a small shipyard on Chandrila (a deferred, low-interest government loan from the New Republic as an economic stimulus package). He met with parts suppliers, hired Corellian, Durosian and Verpine Engineers, and redesgned the Y-Wing. He began purchasing old, beat up Y-Wings from used-vehicle lots and "Can. (Cannibalization)" depots, and refurbishing them.

He started a for-hire Security Company, providing system defense and commercial escort services and fleet sales of the new Y-Wing. Business was good enough that he began buying up retired New Republic Y-Wings for centicredits on the credit, refurbishing them and then re-selling them back to the New Republic! (The Senate investigation/hearing into that was an...unusual...but interesting series of game sessions).

I almost convinced the Security Council to lend-lease a captured World Devastator (from the Dark Empire comic-series) to clean up and salvage old space-battle sites. I cited "navigational and environmental hazard" as a need for the project. But I was going to program its automated manufactories to produce the parts for, and assemble, my Y-Wings.

Imagine how many Y-Wings I could've manufactured from the Death Star (I & II) debris around Yavin IV and Endor. B)

Soontide
19 March 2002, 10:57 PM
The Y-wing, as presented by WEG was a "stock" craft. As in, no motifications, and basic equipment. Nothing in the rules say that a Y-wing could not be modified to be as fast, hit as hard, or take as much damage as any other craft. In fact, they're as tough as they come in the SW universe of ships. One tends to forget that in the Xwing series of novels, Defender squadron still used the Y-wing exclusivly, even though Bwings carried more payload, Awings were faster, and Xwings were popular. the addition of a rear seat gunner makes them deadly, making up for the lack of manuverability. The ability to carry a heavier payload of warheads makes them deadly to ground and capital ship targets, and they can hold their own in a battle of snub fighters.
The idea that the Y-wing was older came from Lucas and the developers of the films themselves. When WEG began the project of putting together a RPG, they worked with Lucalfilm and their associates to come up with basic histories, company names, and specifications for the ships. I believe that the idea that the Y-wing was an older craft came from the fact that the rebels were haveing to use what ever was avaliable at the time. Newer fighters, excluding the X-wing were restricted and hard to come by. The Y-wing and Z-95 headhunter designs were being used extensivly in the rim region as local defense craft and pirate ships. They were the easiest and cheapest ships to by while still be useful to the rebellion.

But, older doesn't mean useless, just a little slower and slightly outmatched by the more modern craft.

FULONGAMER
22 March 2002, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Basically I believe the Y-wing is treated more poorly due to the fact that in ANH, every Y-wing pilot got vaped at the Battle of Yavin (i.e. Pops, Dutch, and Tiree).

Not True.

Do you not remember that of the Four vessels that survived the ANH attack on the Death Star one was a Y wing.

Luke =X
Wedge= Damaged X
Han = Falcon
???= Y

He may or may not have been on the Trench Run, but he was there, and is Canonically enshrined on film. Likely one of the other squadrons that harrassed the DS1 surface emplacements.

Additionally there was another Y-wing pilot, from the Marvel series who bugged out in cowardice early in the fight.

In any case, this supports your hypothesis to some degree. It made it there and back through the most suicidal mission profile, so it had to be doing something right. Though some of the WEG reasoning may be that there were 2 X-wings left and only 1 Y-wing. Assuming equal numbers of attack craft, the odds are in the X-wing's favor. BUT, you'd have to compare the numbers of visible ships on screen (from the approach montage) to clarify. The "higher" numbers of X-wing survivors may be due to mere numerical superiority rather than qualitative superiority.

grizzly
25 March 2002, 05:47 AM
heh.. it's always the way... I've read through the thread thinking "But what about..." and 2 posts up is the mention of the Xwing series :) I can't remember which one it is.. maybe Isard's Revenge, where the pilots are warned "watch out, some of those wishbones are deuces and have a gunner controlling the Ion cannon" (approximate quote :) ). If the Ywings were/are operated with a full crew ie 2 instead of just the pilot and a "lets go with a default setting for the ion cannons and leave it there" they prove themselves to be more than able to throw the punches back in a big fight. From reading the Xwing series it appears they are fairly able to absorbe a pretty severe pounding and at least make it home again, which I personally would look upon as a bonus.. kinda like "What good's a reward if ya ain't around to spend it?"

Ash DuQuennes
25 March 2002, 02:36 PM
Grizzly: I didn't make it through all of the X-Wing series of novels (but I really like the Rogue Squadron series of comics, especially "Madatory Retirement"), but it warms my heart to think that at least one of the novelist went "Hey, wait a minute, some of those are two seaters, with gunners..."

My character (my screen namesake) has always flown with a backseater, and hasn't been afraid to experiment with different armaments, such as twin auto blasters in place of ion cannons (an altogether successfull experiment, and an armament mix I rather like).

Almost every TIE trying to slip into my "Six" has received strong incentive to look elsewhere for targets. And they were the lucky ones.:D

Some of the denigration of the Y-Wing I've railed against here has been ascribed as "fighter pilot ego and prejudice," where every fighter pilot thinks their craft-type is the best, and the put-downs are merely the words of one pilot's (or group of pilot's) points-of-view.

I just happen to have the luxury of being right.;)

Seriously, when played properly, with a competent back-seater manning the guns, the Y-Wing becomes even more formidable than the mere words of the official "capsules" might lead one to believe. The single-seaters, though, may be just as vulnerable as some people think they are.

grizzly
26 March 2002, 04:10 AM
Do yourself a favour and grab Isards Revenge then, cos that deals with the Rogues again, then grab Starfighters of Adumar and see how the different pilots handle an atmospheric craft compared to what they learnt on :) Starfighters only uses Wedge, Tycho, Hobbie and Janson as diplomats, but it's also a pretty hilarious read.... what goes on in the military that the public doesn't see :D

The Admiral
8 April 2002, 02:52 PM
actually George Lucas has been quoted as saying that te X-Wing is patterned after the F-16
Be obliged if you'd back that quote up; where and when did he say that? George has very rarely bothered talking about technology, it would seem out of character for him to state such a thing.

Ash, whilst I share your fondness for the Y-Wing, and I'd agree that there is a pro-X-Wing bias in the EU, I'm unsure exactly what you think has been done wrong?

WEG won the rights to produce the Star Wars RolePlaying game, part of that was creating stats and capsules for a whole bunch of stuff. If it hadn't been written before, then what else were they supossed to do?
The only things I can recall being said about Y-Wings prior to the RPG was that they are bombers, not fighters.
WEG picked stats and a capsule that seemed to best fit the ship. Until now, I've not known anyone to complain that these stats and capsules were wrong, so I think it's fairely safe to assume that the majority of people are perfectly happy with the Y-Wing being marginally slower and less manouverable than the X-Wing, just as the X-Wing is marginally slower and less manouverable than a TIE.
Y-Wings have different weapons, systems etc, and any creative mind can get more out of a ship than the mere stats suggest, so,,,

I have to ask, exactly what are you ranting about?

Tramp
9 April 2002, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by The Admiral

Be obliged if you'd back that quote up; where and when did he say that? George has very rarely bothered talking about technology, it would seem out of character for him to state such a thing.


It was quoted in the book "Star Wars: The Magic of Myth"