PDA

View Full Version : Vong not connected to the force? What? How?



Cordova Bossk
13 March 2002, 03:30 PM
In Dark Tide 1-Onslaught, the Jedi can't sense the Vong. How can that be possible, they're alive so the force must be connected to them.
Obi-Wan quotes in Star Wars "The force is an energy field created by all living things, it surronds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together".
He quotes later that the force "breaks through barriers", that eliminates the option that they're blocking the force, unless you say he was mistaken (he wasn't:rolleyes:).
He also says that it penetrates us, which probobly means it pentrates them too, which probably means the Jedi can sense them, which they can't, so sombody tell me what's going on. You don't have to know just put your opinions.

Jedi_Staailis
13 March 2002, 03:35 PM
The decision to make Vong immune to the Force was almost certainly done to limit the power of Jedi. The writers and editors wanted duels between Jedi and Yuuzhan Vong, and if the Jedi could use the force on them, it wouldn't be much of a match. Though several books explore the "missing from the Force" idea (and it may eventually be resolved in later books), in my mind it was really just a practical solution for those coming up with the stories.

Sabre
13 March 2002, 04:12 PM
Before the NJO series was introduced, I had created a species with a very similar ability of Force resistance. Force resistance is not unfounded in the Star Wars universe. Ysalamiri are Force resistant, and project this in a bubble. Hutts are resistant to some aspects of the Force, as as Toydarians. Conversely, some species seem to have a strong affinity to the Force. People from Dathomir. Star Dragons. The Jensaari. My idea is that Force affect is something akin to sound, or light. That is, there are certain frequences of sound that cannot normally be heard, just as there are certain frequences of light that cannot normally be seen. That isn't to say that they aren't there, just that they are not readily accessible. On some level, all things contribute to the Force. However some things do so at a level that Force sensitives do not yet comprehend. Of course, this may not be true of ALL force sensitives, as we know there are creatures that can hear and see frequencies of sound and light that humans cannot.

Anyway, that's my explanation.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
13 March 2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Cordova Bossk
Obi-Wan quotes in Star Wars "The force is an energy field created by all living things, it surronds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together".

His galaxy, not the one that the Yuuzhan Vong are from. Therefore both Obi-Wan can still say what he said and the YV can be absent from the Force.

However in the later books Anakin Solo finds a "window" if you will in to the version (as I refer to in) of the Force that exists in the YV galaxy.

Talonne Hauk
13 March 2002, 10:14 PM
If the Force is an energy field, I think it makes sense that the spectrum available to those who are Force sensitive in our favorite galaxy may be different from the spectrum available to the Yuuzhan Vong. The best analogy would be that visible light is only one small slice of the electro-magnetic spectrum. The Jedi are simply looking at a different slice of the spectrum from where the Vong are.

Tramp
14 March 2002, 07:52 AM
Both Frobiwam and Talonne are correct in this matter, though there's a little more to it. The way Anakin understood it, the Force is one aspect of a larger "Universal Power", for lack of a better term, as is the power that the Yuuzhan Vong believe to be their gods. Anakin was able to tap into this Universal Power through his Lambient and thus sense the Yuuzhan Vong.

dgswensen
14 March 2002, 08:08 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking they're going to have to rewrite that scene for the next Special Edition :)

OBI-WAN: The force is an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Really, all living things?

OBI-WAN: Well, no. There are these Yuzzhan Vong guys, they're immune to it. You'll want to watch out for them. They're pretty bad ass.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Immune? But how can that be?

OBI-WAN: (shrugs) Who knows? Oh yeah, and ysalmiri too.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Ysalmiri?

OBI-WAN: Yeah, these little critters, they nullify the force. No one really knows why. But if you were ever fighting a big, huge, Force-using creature, you could probably defeat it by shoving ysalmiri down its gullet until you finally killed it. But, if you're trying to use the Force on some guy, and say, he's got one of these around his neck? You're up the creek.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Oh. I see.

OBI-WAN: Yeah. But other than that, the Force works on all living things.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Oh!

OBI-WAN: Well, except Hutts. Mind tricks don't work on them.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Oh...

OBI-WAN: And Toydarians. Them either.

LUKE SKYWALKER: ...oh.

OBI-WAN: So, you want to come to Alderaan and learn the ways of the Force?

LUKE SKYWALKER: I dunno, doesn't sound very handy to me.

Jastor
14 March 2002, 08:09 AM
dont remember if the YV breathed air or not, since themselves is not affected by the force, the eventual air theyre breathing is :) doing something with that ^^ respaping it etc.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
14 March 2002, 03:58 PM
They do breath air because they have Orgulth Cloakers to protect them from vacuum and they have grunliths to feed them air underwater, toxic environments and in space.

Reverend Strone
14 March 2002, 04:33 PM
Qui Gonn also says something like, "without Midichlorians we would have no knowledge of the Force". Is it concievable that the Vong, being from another Galaxy (forgive me if I'm wrong on this, I'm not big on the NJO stuff) don't have midichlorians, or perhaps have a different, extra-galactic equivalent that is undetectable by Jedi?

Just a thought.

Tramp
15 March 2002, 08:01 AM
The Yuuzhan Vong would have an extra galactic equivalent. As I stated in my last post, Anakin figured out that the Force was but the manifestation, in his home galaxy, of a larger power and that the Yuuzhan Vong had a similar manifestation, the Dark Side of which had completely dominated. This manifestation was represented in their gods. Through the use of the Lambient in his lightsaber, he was able to breach the barrier to this higher power and thus sense the Yuuzhan Vong. Based on this information, it can be assumed that, if Midichlorians allow people to hear the Force as manifested in the home galaxy proper, then, the Vong have a similar mechanism within them that serves the same purpose with their galaxy's manifestation of this higher power.

Soontide
24 March 2002, 02:24 AM
Qui Gonn also says something like, "without Midichlorians we would have no knowledge of the Force".

I tend to agree with revstone. The YV are from outside the known galaxy and it would make sense that they would have no midichlorians in their systems. But, after some time, as they ate food from the galaxy, breathed the air and drank the water, their midichlorian count would go up and they would be easier and easier to sense in the force. Anakins finding of the lambient and its "window" effect could be a way of the midichlorians getting into the system of the vong technology and allowing a minor means of sensing them. In Star by Star, Anakin takes a huge amount of the force into himself and begins to sense the Vong very clearly. was he doing this through the lambient? or because he was so attuned to the force that he could sense the small amounts of midichlorians in the vong that he was facing.
Btw, this would also explain why Jedi have a larger presence in the force than non force using sentients.

Tramp
25 March 2002, 08:47 AM
The thing is though, they wouldn't take in the genetic material of the of the food they eat, only the nutritional value. The Yuuzhan Vong's genetic make-up wouldn't change from eating food just like our's doesn't change from eating. It would take genetic manipulation to actually alter them in such a way that they would have midichlorians.

Otonashi
25 March 2002, 12:25 PM
"Through the use of the Lambient in his lightsaber"

This phrase keeps repeating. What is the Lambient, and what is so special about Anakin's lightsaber?

Tramp
25 March 2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Otonashi
"Through the use of the Lambient in his lightsaber"

This phrase keeps repeating. What is the Lambient, and what is so special about Anakin's lightsaber?

A Lambient is an organic crystal produced by plants that the Yuuzhan Vong grow and acts as a lightsource like a lantern. Anakin was able to harmonize with one and used it to replace the original crystal in his lightsaber. While doing so, he opened himself up to a power beyond the Force and was then able to sense the Yuuzhan Vong through the connection with the Lambient.

Soontide
25 March 2002, 01:48 PM
In my previous post, I suppose that I must explain my reasoning for the vong gaining more and more as they take in the substance of the galaxy. If a person who has none of the local bacteria of a region moves to that region, as they eat the food and drink the water, they will begin to have amounts of that local bacteria. the amount depends on how pervalant the bacteria is. From what the jedi make clear in TPM, micichlorians are everywhere in the galaxy. They are in everything. Some species seem to have a matabolism that destroys or limits the amounts of midichlorians that stay in their systems (ie hutts). This is much like some bacteria in certian areas of our own world and the reaction of certian species of animals in these areas. That was what I was basing my theory on.

Reverend Strone
25 March 2002, 05:28 PM
Some nice theorizing Soontide . i quite like the sound of some of that.

Tramp
26 March 2002, 08:33 AM
The problem with your theory is that Midichlorians are like Mitochondria. The number and make-up are unique to each individual based on that person's genetics. you don't gain anymore from eating something. Cells don't absorb the genetic material of the food that is consumed. All they get out of it is energy and nutrients.

Mathis Kharr
26 March 2002, 05:22 PM
Simple Evolution. eventually liveing in a glactic climate ill change the Vongand thier new young will probably loose that immunity to the force as they are aclamated to the new galaxy. it will take time but eventually as withany species even on our world a specis will evolve after it has grown to a point and need to change. Hey someday you might see force using VOng

Otonashi
27 March 2002, 07:40 AM
Midichlorians are not cellular bodies, they are life forms in and of themselves, or so Qui Gon says. So I imagine that they control their own migration and replication. If they were cellular bodies you could use RNA ala gene therapy to introduce them into a lifeform.

Tramp
27 March 2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Otonashi
Midichlorians are not cellular bodies, they are life forms in and of themselves, or so Qui Gon says. So I imagine that they control their own migration and replication. If they were cellular bodies you could use RNA ala gene therapy to introduce them into a lifeform.

Yes they are Life forms, however, theyr'e not independent and can't survive outside a living cell. They're totally integrated into a living being's cells like mitochondria and serve a similar function. In a book called "The Science of Star Wars" and , I believe in an interview somewhere, it was brought up that Midichlorians were possibly the Star Wars equivalent of Mitochondria in that they served a similar function. And, as Mitochondria were once independent life forms that are now totally interdependent with the cells that they reside in, so the same is true of Midichlorians. Therefore you could concievably use genetic manipulation to introduce them into a life form. In fact this would be the only way to do so.

Vreel Kudarin
25 October 2002, 01:35 PM
In Destiny's Way, it is revealed that the New Republic's Alpha Red section has been examining Yuuzhan Vong genetics, and briefly I thought we might finally get an explanation of midichlorians in the context of the NJO era, with the Alpha Red scientists noticing that midichlorians were absent from the Vong.

But it turned out that they'd discovered an aspect of DNA that all Vonglife possesses, but which is absent from Known Galaxy life. I thought it strange that science is far from dead in the NJO era, but xenobiologists do not seem to know about midichlorians. Midichlorian levels can be measured in the Old Republic, and I can understand that the Emperor could have destroyed all knowledge of them when he eradicated the Jedi, but surely at some point after his death, scientists would have rediscovered midichlorians?

Perhaps this unique Vonglife DNA aspect will be expanded upon and turn out to be the Yuuzhan Vong equivilent of midichlorians, and the explanation for Yammosk telepathy and the fact that they can be sensed as long as you have some connection with a lambent or slave seed. I'd love to hear any views on this, as we appear to be nearing the solution to the NJO mystery.

Codym
25 October 2002, 02:30 PM
I always assumed that the reasons that the Force avoided the Vong was due to them having eased Midichlorians from their DNA through centuries of genetic tampering. Unfortunately, every possible explanion that I come up with gets contridicted with each subsequent book as they constantly change the rules. Some Force attacks work on the Vong, some don't. Sometimes reasons are given for these, sometimes they aren't, and sometimes reasons are given that make no sense. It would be nice at the end of the series for this to be explained, but I think it just comes down to who indivual authors see the plot.

As for biologists knowing of Midichlorians, I believe they must know of them, but I doubt they would know the significance of them to the Jedi. It is very possible that only the Jedi knew of this Force secret - the fact it requires a blood test suggests that, rather than some hand-held "Jedi" detector that appeared in the EU. Palpatine may or may not have known, but that has yet to be seen.

Vreel Kudarin
26 October 2002, 01:45 AM
I fully agree with your point that the NJO authors had better tidy up all the loose ends in the last five novels of the series. It would be a catastrophe if, even possessing the 'NJO Bible', which outlines the basic plot points they have to include, they failed to bring a conclusion to the biological, philosophical, and supernatural questions that have provided cause for so much intrigue, throughout what has been an apocalyptic tour de Force of Hero-bashing, and a galaxy-altering journey of discovery and change. I think the way complete devastation has been combined with a deep questioning of the Force (although I disliked the idea at first) has been well-handled.

Although I have come to accept the idea of midichlorians, I prefer the concept of the Emperor's Force Detector program (which uses thaissen crystals that glow faintly in close proximity to a Force user) to that of testing for Force potential using a blood sample. This is because midichlorians seem to go so against the tremendous pathos of spiritual power and destiny that Lucas managed to create with his superior Classic Trilogy of films. That, and the link with imbuing lightsaber crystals with the Force upon their construction. This, for me, has a much greater feeling of 'magic' than taking a midichlorian count.

That said, I have no problem with both methods existing, as the Universe is a diverse place, and no contradiction is involved.

Warlock-Da
26 October 2002, 02:39 PM
SPOILER


















In DW Vergere told Luke the idea that perhaps the Vong are NOT outside the Force or without the Force,... that merely the Jedi lack the knowledge to "see" Vong within the Force. Personally this makes the most since being they ARE from an entirely new galaxy.

Plus for those that have read DW,... note the descriptions on how Shimrra seems to not only be able to influence the Vong's emotions ,...but since other Vong prior to them entering his chambers.

Dan Kyrinov
26 October 2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Warlock-Da
Plus for those that have read DW,... note the descriptions on how Shimrra seems to not only be able to influence the Vong's emotions ,...but since other Vong prior to them entering his chambers. [/B]

My theory on that is that Shimmra is part yammosk or dhuryam. If all Vonglife has a common genetic code, then Shimmra could be genetically crossbred by the shapers to include implanted aspects that give him those powers. If you can take a leg or arm from an animal and graft it on a warmaster, then Shimmra might have some grafts of his own.

Warlock-Da
26 October 2002, 10:35 PM
Hmmm I don't think it's that. With him not only knowing the Shapers secret (the 8th Cortex being almost empty and the fact that the 'gods' didn't give them the knowledge anyways) and with just how scheming and selfserving the shaper cast has been I'm expecting something else.

But one way or another we'll find out ;) More than likely the authors will once again blow our minds with the solution being something noone's thought of.

Vreel Kudarin
27 October 2002, 02:30 AM
SPOILERS! - Destinys Way



I agree with the idea that the Vong will turn out to be part of the Force on some level - it's just their Extragalactic nature which has made them hard to sense. They become easier to sense when one has come close to their biotech, through implantation with a slave seed (Jacen), harmonizing with a lambent crystal (Anakin), or shaper manipulation (Tahiri). Whether the Supreme Overlord is part Yammosk or not, I think Yammosks themselves get their telepathy through the Force. If midichlorians are factored into the final answer, I'm betting that the reason for the Vong being a real b****** to sense is that they have a different version of midichlorians.

There are some odd things, such as although Yammosks have telepathy, they co-ordinate fleets through 'gravitic messaging'; and that cognition hoods in coralskippers and other Vong vessels appear to use limited telepathy to create images in the wearer's mind, but actually have physical voices to inform them of things ( remember Threepio wearing a cognition hood back when it all began? The skip told him it was hungry ). But I guess "odd" is what you'd call a race from another galaxy.

Jacen has become the link to finding the answer, after his implantation by Vergere, though it's interesting to note that he can only use his 'Vongsense' or the Force one at a time ( It reminds me of the different Predator mask modes on AVP! ;) ) . But when he does use 'Vongsense', he can wield it like the Force - mind controlling amphistaffs etc. And of course, Jacen appears to have sown the seeds of the Yuuzhan Vong downfall with his link to the World Brain on Yuuzhan'tar.

Codym
27 October 2002, 03:08 AM
While the Vong coming from another galaxy is a good explaination for some of it, but it begs the quest, should it also have held that the Vong would have problems with this galaxy's biology?

Now I know the Vong did scouting missions, etc, but the Force is universal (excuse the pun) in all life in the Republic galaxy to greater or lesser extent, so if their biology is so different to exclude this or have it a different way (so far the explainations of this that I have read dealing with this -Traitor and Edge of Victory- have been half-hearted and not very convincing,) should that not create a rather large barrier for them to overcome, especially since we know (or at least it was later decided on) that their biotech has limits and lacks creativity?

Any biologists out there actual have an opinion?

Vreel Kudarin
27 October 2002, 10:58 AM
What kind of problems do you mean, Codym? Like catching diseases that they haven't been subjected to before? That is a good point. And one example of their weakness in the Known Galaxy was illustrated with the Bafforr tree pollen that causes Vonduun crab-shell armour to seize up and gradually kill the user. That's why they destroyed Ithor.

The Vong certainly lack creativity due to just drawing upon the store of knowledge given to them by another race in their own galaxy; but the stuff that they have is pretty nasty - personal armour and weapons that can withstand the energy of a lightsabre for a few seconds.

One thing I noticed which is a weakness of the Yuuzhan Vong is that if indeed they are connected to the Force, they seem unable to manipulate it in the way Jedi and other Force traditions can - save for Yammosk telepathy.

Codym
27 October 2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Vreel Kudarin
What kind of problems do you mean, Codym? Like catching diseases that they haven't been subjected to before? That is a good point. And one example of their weakness in the Known Galaxy was illustrated with the Bafforr tree pollen that causes Vonduun crab-shell armour to seize up and gradually kill the user. That's why they destroyed Ithor.


Actually, two points on my post.

1. The point I was trying to make was, if the Vong biology and genetics are so different that they even have Force in a different way, should that not hinder them in their genetic alterations of the species in the republic galaxy, and the terraforming of the planets? As it was, they seemed to have no problem (save for Kerrigan - oops, I meant Anakin's annoying little girlfriend.)

2. I was in rant mode. I dispise the Vong as a creation. They are like a NPC villian that the GM has created and over powered and given no weaknesses, and whenever a weakness is found, the players are told "sorry, can't use that one." Then it is discovered that they have one weakness that players are allowed to exploit, because the GM said so. After all, in which book did they learn how to track the Vong - quite easily as well - but spotting holes in the Force? And how quickly did this keep getting forgotten so the Jedi could be ambushed?

Er, sorry, rant mode again.

Warlock-Da
27 October 2002, 01:57 PM
Keep in mind we're 'assuming' that the Vong home galaxy is utterly different. But if you think about the Star Wars concept... it wouldn't make any since. Just look at the sheer number of things in the normal SW galaxy that shouldn't be. Nearly EVERY planet being capable of supporting human life alone is outrageous. Makes for a great story though....but looking at it scientifically it fails. Why should the Vong's galaxy be so utterly different? Sure... the way the force touches them is different,... this happens in the known galaxy in some species also though.

And the reason the Vong are so over powered isn't a lack of weaknesses,..... they die off farly easily,....shot one in the head he dies,...stick a saber through his liver...he'll die. Are their soilders any different than Stormtroopers in really good armor ? No. Now their life is BASED on pain,... nearly ALL of them are trained to fight even priest and shaper castes are trained...just not as much as warrior caste. They use bio-tech instead of electrical tech. Not a big diff there except the NR didn't know WTF was going on. They use gravity instead of electrical impulses,.... in theory makes since ,... EVERYthing produces gravity waves.

Now saying they should be allergic to our galaxy.,.... if so then why isn't there 15 million things that kill humans ? If you look at Earth there's something to kill a person on every continant, based on that alone a man traveling all over the galaxy should contract enough diseases to kill his family tree off 50 times :)

As for the Jedi 'forgetting' to look for holes in the force,....makes perfect since .... it's like you trying to learn how to NOT look for ppls bodies but look at their shadows. Jedi spent their lives learning to look FOR the force,...not for where it's not. Plus most of the novels deal with the younger Jedi ....how haven't trained nearly long enough to be all that good.

Personally I love this line of novels. It beats the "So what's the next big ship-like thing with a super gun named for a body part of lust fetish of the Emperor going to be" or "which jaded ex-Jedi will blow ppl up next"

SW just really really needed something new.

Vreel Kudarin
27 October 2002, 02:02 PM
Firstly: STARCRAFT - My favourite PC game of all time :)

I understand your dislike of the Vong, Codym. Personally I have thought of some reasons why they may have been created. They are meant to be the opposite of everything we have come to accept about the Known Galaxy. They are technophobic, they exclusively use biotech, and they don't seem to obey the 'laws' of the Force. We learned that nothing can stand up to a Jedi, but Vong warriors have the equipment to. Vong are humanoid, but conjur up a feeling of Living Death with their scarred bodies and devotion to pain and slaughter. The Known Galaxy seems to represent Life, wheras the Vong are Death. I think symbolism has a lot to do with it.

I also think the Yuuzhan Vong were created to challenge our beliefs and what we know about the Star Wars Universe, and I fully understand they must annoy many. I feel that the Force will come out of this even stronger as a concept. The Vong have allowed us to explore morals (Light vs. Dark) in a way that has never been achieved before, and taught Jedi not to rely on the Force as their only tool. Currently I'm running a Campaign in the NJO era, and I feel that the Vong are a perfect tool for showing the weakness of not adapting, of testing the limits of my Players' ingenuity.

As I remember it, there were only a few Jedi, Anakin and Jacen I think learned, who could sense where the Vong were - but it took a great deal of effort - much more so than to sense Known Galaxy life.

Codym
27 October 2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Warlock-Da
Personally I love this line of novels. It beats the "So what's the next big ship-like thing with a super gun named for a body part of lust fetish of the Emperor going to be" or "which jaded ex-Jedi will blow ppl up next"

SW just really really needed something new.

Not to offend you, but the Vong are still just the "Superweapon of the Week" club that plagued the Bantam series. They drop moons on planets. The "grow" ships bigger than star destroyers. They have armor that can deflect weapons they have never encountered. They terraform planets in seconds (okay, that's a little off the mark, but still basically ture.) So far they've brought nothing new to SW universe other than biotech. And I don't think anyone has suggested they drop dead from allergies or anything (though a few doing it would be nice, and emphasize the fact they are from a different galaxy.)

The Jedi needed to be weaked, that is for sure, but I think it was more a case of hitting writers on the head whenever they did a stupid thing that made the Jedi too powerful (how they let KFA throw a fleet of Victories across the galaxy is beyond insanity.)

Glad you enjoy the series, but I don't. I want my Star Wars back.
:(

Nova Spice
27 October 2002, 05:45 PM
So far they've brought nothing new to SW universe other than biotech.

Well I think I'm gonna hop on this little discussion since I am a huge advocate of the NJO series. First off, I am curious how many books in the NJO you have read Codym? I find that many of the people who hate the NJO have only read perhaps one or two books?

Anyway, I thought I'd respond to the remark that the Vong have only brought biotech; not true. Here's a list of the unique things they have brought to Star Wars:

The Yuuzhan Vong

-A strange culture based on pain and the embracement of pain
-A complex polytheistic society that believes and serves many gods
-A strange and complicated technology that relies on the creation and use of creatures as well as the manipulation of gravity
-A twisted alchemically designed creation technique known as "shaping," that completely changes an organism into something else entirely
-A mysterious absence from the "Force"
-An interesting and developed caste system made up of Shamed Ones, Intendants, Priests, Shapers, Warriors, and Warmasters

The Star Wars Universe

-Destroyed the "protective" bubble around the heroes and main characters
-Destroyed the planets and systems thought untouchable (Coruscant, Ithor, Yavin IV)
-Completely changed the ideaolgy of the Force and the way the Force is viewed
-Ripped apart the curtain that once separated the Empire and the New Republic
-Progressed the character development of all the main characters
-Introduced new and intriguing characters, as well as molded characters from previous works into life-like and fleshed out beings
-Brought about a realistic aspect to the galaxy far, far away.....

I really believe that the New Jedi Order is the best thing to happen to Star Wars since the release of Episode I: The Phantom Menace, and besides the prequels and classic films, I believe the New Jedi Order may be the most definitive Star Wars experience out there (including the RPG and video games).


Glad you enjoy the series, but I don't. I want my Star Wars back.

Its back Codym, the New Jedi Order has brought Star Wars back. ;) :)

Warlock-Da
27 October 2002, 05:47 PM
*shrugs*

Each their own I guess. To me it's more how the story is told .... in all honesty....90% of the major story lines could be slammed into insanity by opening the facts that most of the concepts are pretty lame. And as long as the SW line as been out...they're prolly running short on completely new "OMG effect" ideas.

But no worries they've got plenty of Non-NJO novels slated for the print.

Warlock-Da
27 October 2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice

the New Jedi Order has brought Star Wars back. ;) :)


Here here :D

Codym
28 October 2002, 02:37 AM
Sorry, again as before, I was in rant mode.

The question if the Vong are SW or not comes down to personal feelings, and I don't believe they fit into SW, as much as I believe Dathomir, the Young Jedi Knight series, the whole Dark Horse line pre-Episode I and "superweapon of the week" fail to fit into Star Wars. You do like the Vong and the NJO, and and that's perfectly fine. Most of my actual points on this thread have been to point out the discrepencies in the Vong that have at times come up and made a firm answer about them impossible. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore on that respect.

As for how many NJO books I own and have read, the sad truth is, all of them up exept Destiny's Way (I live in New Zealand and it can take a long time for books to get here.) You can find my reviews of certain novels on Amazon, and they all pretty much say the same thing - good authors, bad foe. The Vong never captured my imagination, and that is something all the films have. And as for the list of points that Nova made, most are valid, from a certain point of view. I could argue strongly about most of that list, but it would just lead us in cirlces, and technically both of us would be right.

I will be getting the rest of the NJO as it arrives, and reading it, but for me the fun has left this section of the galaxy. If you do not agree, keep reading, keep enjoying and keep posting. :)

Ardent
30 October 2002, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Codym
The question if the Vong are SW or not comes down to personal feelings, and I don't believe they fit into SW, as much as I believe Dathomir, the Young Jedi Knight series, the whole Dark Horse line pre-Episode I and "superweapon of the week" fail to fit into Star Wars.

Hey, we all have Star Wars novels we don't like (mine happens to begin and end with Planet of Twilight), but they're there. I'm not a big fan of the whole 'cloaking device' thing that floats to the surface from time to time. It's one of those plot devices that just utterly defies reasonable scientific explanation (while hyperspace is a bit of a stretch, it's still hypothetically possible and even the Force is argueable, depending on your opinion on the supernatural) and yet, continues to plague readers.


You do like the Vong and the NJO, and and that's perfectly fine. Most of my actual points on this thread have been to point out the discrepencies in the Vong that have at times come up and made a firm answer about them impossible. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore on that respect.

Your points have illustrated little more than the fact that the difference between a fan and a fanatic is much greater than four letters and commitment. ALL writing has inconsistancies. Inconsistancies happen. What makes them okay is suspension of disbelief.


As for how many NJO books I own and have read, the sad truth is, all of them up exept Destiny's Way (I live in New Zealand and it can take a long time for books to get here.) You can find my reviews of certain novels on Amazon, and they all pretty much say the same thing - good authors, bad foe. The Vong never captured my imagination, and that is something all the films have. And as for the list of points that Nova made, most are valid, from a certain point of view. I could argue strongly about most of that list, but it would just lead us in cirlces, and technically both of us would be right.

I could argue that Abraham Lincoln was a villain and not a hero until I'm blue in the face. That doesn't necessarily make either argument the truth.

I'm ranting, yes, but I'll own up to my words. If you are not enjoying something, continuing to do it and then complaining in a public place where other people are trying to heighten each other's enjoyment is almost criminal. If you can contribute, post. If you're simply going to berate, keep it to yourself or create a new thread that will hold no allusions to something else.

Darien_Shadowfyre
30 October 2002, 10:06 AM
Okay I'm going to get blasted for this but I feel the need to say something.


If you can contribute, post. If you're simply going to berate, keep it to yourself or create a new thread that will hold no allusions to something else.

Ardent, that was uncalled for. Codym was basically saying "Why don't we just agree to disagree, and move on?" Theres no need to be snippish with him. A dissenting opinion IS contributing.


I will be getting the rest of the NJO as it arrives, and reading it, but for me the fun has left this section of the galaxy. If you do not agree, keep reading, keep enjoying and keep posting.

He is not insulting you or your belief that the NJO series is good. He is merely expressing why it is not enjoyable for him. He's bowed out and left the discussion after putting in his $.02 in a rational fashion. Whether or not we agree with him is irrelevant. He isn't being a troll. Please don't treat him or anyone else who disagrees with/states their own opinion in a polite manner like one.

Arakyd
30 October 2002, 10:22 AM
Well said, Darien_Shadowfyre!

Warlock-Da
30 October 2002, 10:31 AM
True .... hehe some of the best discussions arrise from ppl that like and ppl that DON'T like something.