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Frobi-Wan Kenobi
14 March 2002, 11:18 PM
In Jedi Starfighter one of the 4 Force powers that can be used in flight is the Force Lightning ability. However, all of the information around FL has said that the user receives a DSP for using it no matter what they are using it on (this goes for both sytstems).

I thought that maybe it would be ok since they are not attacking a living person but a ship. However there are people on the ship who would die as a result of the blast.

I also can't wait to see these new abilities put into playable terms.

darth maim
14 March 2002, 11:22 PM
I would have to say that in game terms any use of the force to actually disable a ship enough to kill the person inside is worthy of a DSP... Video Games however are not bound to this... that and the reason it's FL is simply because it looks cooler than say forcegrip or some other such attack.

wolverine
15 March 2002, 03:08 AM
What about using FL to re-charge powercells?? Cann it be used in this fasion, and if so, would it's user get a DSP for using FL this way?

Kayle Skolaris
15 March 2002, 03:53 AM
Everyone hates my views on this and no one ever listens, but I'm going to give them anyway. Force Lightning is NOT electricity. It is a pure physical manifestation of the Dark Side and as such is only useful for destruction, not creation. No charging power cells. You want an easy way to charge stuff, invent a new Force Power. Force Lightning isn't appropriate.

Nazgul
15 March 2002, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
Everyone hates my views on this and no one ever listens, but I'm going to give them anyway. Force Lightning is NOT electricity.

Actually you're not alone in that boat. That's how I think of it. (I don't even allow armor DR's [d20] or STR bonus [d6] to work against it).

Donovan Morningfire
15 March 2002, 05:09 AM
This was said as relates to Jedi Knight II Outcast, but it applies fairly well to any Star Wars video game:

The game designers don't give one whit about Light Side or Dark Side based powers as far as RPGs go. They only care about what they think would be a cool addition to the game or a nifty option for the player of said game. Plo Koon in Jedi Power Battles could use a beam of energy that by most RPG terms would be a Dark Side Power, as it is very much like Force Lightning. (It's a Force power solely used to kill your enemies.)

As for the ion effect, Rigil Kent brought up this subject a while back as a dramatic effect, and for that I'd say cool, but only as a last-ditch dramatic effect, and might even require the expenditure of a Force point to allow for 'stretching' the power.

As for recharging batteries, no, but not for the reasons Kayle said. Force lightning as we often see it manifests as electrical energy. I believe it was in Truce of Bakura when Luke was being checked over by a medical droid he was found to have suffered the effects of being exposed to a high amount of electricity, nearly enough to kill him. As for the batteries, it's like using a 20-pound sledgehammer to drive a small nail into a wooden wall. Way too much power. If you do want a Force power to 'jump start' stuff, make one up like Kayle suggested.

I'd still say DSPs in both cases, as the very act of calling up Force Lightning means focusing your anger and hatred, which last I knew were traits that lead to the Dark Side.

Ghost In The Holocron
15 March 2002, 05:16 AM
It is a pure physical manifestation of the Dark Side and as such is only useful for destruction, not creation.

Actually, I like that take on Force Lightning.

And I wouldn't allow it for recharging power cells and such either -- I'm having silly visions of the emperor refueling his Arakyd Use Anywhere Nitelite with that evil smile on his face.

However... (WARNING: EPISODE 2 SPOILER ahead)



















It is speculated on the AotC spoiler circuits that Yoda receives a barrage of FL from a certain dark opponent and returns it back to sender! Incredible, eh?! (Hopefully it's also true). Now, would that use of Force Lightning (assuming it is indeed a use/re-use of FL) warrant a DSP? I suppose it might, but I wonder -- since the FL originally came from the attacker and Master Yoda simply uses his opponent's power against him -- like using your foe's charge or attack to unbalance him or something like that. Ah, too much speculation already! I guess we'll find out in due time.

Kayle Skolaris
15 March 2002, 06:12 AM
Hrmmm... Sounds like a force-imbued aggressive parry. Such actions are considered highly dishonorable in many martial arts, but that doesn't necessarily make it evil. I'd say it walks the line... It's really quite similar to using the force to parry blaster bolts.

QWERTY
15 March 2002, 06:16 AM
In the darkside source book (d20 sorry i dont play d6) the drain energy abilty is a darkside skill because the jedi/force user taps into darkside energy

+ also in d20 when you use force lighting once you only get 1 darkside point ever (no counting killing people). even if you use 20 times you have receved punishment/reward for activting the abilty. otherwise the prestige classes like sith lord would be realy easy to attain

Sabre
15 March 2002, 09:03 AM
I think Kayle is right on the FL is not electricity bit, too. Then again, if it WERE electricity, imagine what great batteries the Sith would make. As for the spoiler power in question, I don't think the person only used the other person's power against them with some sort of reflective trick. I wouldn't consider this as Dark Side, since it isn't an attack unless you're being attacked, and really doesn't have any practical offensive application. I'll grant you that it isn't exactly a nice thing to do, however I'd argue that it's ironically just.

reliant
15 March 2002, 09:09 AM
I thought you got a DSP every time you used one of the "dark" powers. I find it unreasonable that you only get one the first time, then you get to use it as much as you want with no penalty... That seems a bit unrealistic to me...

Kayle Skolaris
15 March 2002, 09:17 AM
I think DSPs have a different effect in D20 than they do in D6 since D20 allows for evil characters and D6 actively discourages them.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
15 March 2002, 09:40 AM
Once I get some stats for this skill I am going to allow my players to use FL in the cockpit. I figure that starfighter combat is where people get killed. If a Jedi could protect more of the "good peoples" lives by using FL in a dogfight than they should. Luke used the Force to guide his hands when he blew up the first Death Star, why should zapping a few TIEs be a whole lot different? Now I think that I'll have a rule if they are fighting people that aren't bad (ex. empire, Trade Fed, Yuuzhan Vong) and they use this power they'll get a DSP. But just think about how the other pilots would want to jump out of the fight once they saw one of their own destoryed by a bolt of FL.

darth maim
15 March 2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi
why should zapping a few TIEs be a whole lot different?

It's supposed to be a physical manifestation of all the dark energy and anger in you. Hence an automatic DSP. Same as Rage and Hatred of the DSSB.

Also how would one go about classifying an enemy as good or bad for these purposes? Are the Vong bad or evil? They are following their religious beliefs... does this make them evil? How about during Rebellion era... Who was more evil an Empire who imposed taxing laws and harsh penalties or a group of lawless terrorists?

Ghost In The Holocron
15 March 2002, 10:38 AM
As for Force Lightning DSPs -- don't have much experience with it in-game as yet -- but I suppose it greatly depends on the gamemaster's take on the issue. Perhaps Frobi can use FL/starship with some name/concept change -- a new (d20) feat maybe, sans the anger and hatred?

Another thought/question: Will using FL in a starship, against other satrships, require special equipment in the Force-user's vessel? Maybe some kind of "focusing crystal"? FL alone may be too limited in it's range (as in the rulebooks). I don't know how it is in the video game, but I suspect it has a greater range there than is implied in the RPG rules -- either that or you'll have to be practically wingtip to wingtip with your opponent's ship for it to work! And will the damage be against your foe's hull or is it similar to ion cannon damage (ie: takes down electrical systems and such)? -- in which case maybe the "focusing crystal" is actually some kind of Force-powered ion cannon?

Just juggling ideas here. Hope it gives you something to work on.

reliant
15 March 2002, 10:41 AM
I subscribe to the theory that force lightning is a direct manifestation of the darkside of the force. Therefore if you use it (no matter why) you get a DSP because you are giving in to your anger/hate and channeling that energy into a bolt of pure darkside energy. None of that "pay once and use as many times as you want", if you use FL you get a DSP. Period.

Raiden
15 March 2002, 10:47 AM
I like the idea of the force powered ion cannon:D ...just think of all the other powers you could use through a focusing crystal

reliant
15 March 2002, 12:03 PM
Force focusing crystals huh... Maybe use force grip to crush a starship hull? Or what about force drain to suck the power out of a whole ship?

Kayle Skolaris
15 March 2002, 12:19 PM
I came up with something called a Doom Bolt Array for my New Sith Order setting. It's a Sith-Enchanted crystalline matrix that anyone who knows the power Bolts of Hatred can use. When a Bolt of Hatred is fired into the matrix it's enhanced and amplified for range and damage such that Space Range of 0-15 with no "short/medium/long" range increments. In an atmosphere it has a 0-15 kilometer range with no range increments. It ignores both hull and shields, unless the shields are force-enhanced (I'll get to that in a second), to strike the crew itself inflicting 6D damage in the scale of the whatever life forms are struck. Thus, firing a Doom Bolt at a Yuuzhan Vong ship could very well kill the ship! It affects the ENTIRE crew of a given ship. Everyone takes 6D damage. If firing on a living ship, such as Yuuzhan Vong or Ergeshui ships, the ship and all of the crew take damage, each in their respective scale. Death Star scale creatures cannot be affected by this power, however.

Also, I came up with Force-Enhanced Shielding which lets anyone with the Absorb/Dissipate Energy power (and who knows how to make it work with the modified shield system) add their Alter dice to a ship's shields for purposes of deflecting energy-based or Force-based attacks only. The Force-Enhanced Shields have no effect on matter-based weapons such as missiles, torpedoes, or railguns.

Ghost In The Holocron
15 March 2002, 12:29 PM
Whoa, folks! I sense a disturbance...

A slight clarification then: Didn't mean for the "focusing crystals" to be munchkin-fodder. Maybe just an idea Frobi might want to explore -- with caution and well-defined limits (as Kayle has done with his own ideas above). Allowing the mentioned crystals to focus other powers like some sort of planet-killing Force cannon would be sheer madness! And, personally (for my own campaign), I wouldn't touch them with a ten-meter pole.

Hope that puts things into perspective.

Kayle Skolaris
15 March 2002, 12:37 PM
<shrug> I'm accustomed to people considering my material over-powered. Just figured it was relevent to the conversation.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
15 March 2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Ghost In The Holocron
Perhaps Frobi can use FL/starship with some name/concept change -- a new (d20) feat maybe, sans the anger and hatred?

That's what I'm talking about. It's the same effect without the anger involved.

In my mind this ability should be similar to the battlemind. I mean a Jedi can wade through a platoon of troops and still be calm. That's the type of power I'm talking about here. In the game Jedi Master Adi Gallia isn't screaming "Die Mercenary Scum" as she sends a bolt of FL toward a Dianoga. She is calm, at peace, passive. Focusing on the battle.

As for the range, in the game it doesn't matter how far away the target is, it's just harder to get a good connection to the Force.

I'm going to work on both the game and d20 RPG stats for the Force powers (If somebody who uses the D6 system would like to help do that version of it we could submit it to SWRPGNetwork Submissions).

Thanks for everyone's input.

Dark Knight
15 March 2002, 10:31 PM
I'm with the idea of the ion-like purposes of this. But if it's used to kill then dsp's away.

Donovan Morningfire
16 March 2002, 08:07 AM
Frobi:
I think the distinction between battlemind and Force Lightning is that battlemind is not used directly to harm. Battlemind enhances the fighting ability of the user. Force Push is probably just barely not a Dark Side power since it's fairly hard to kill someone directly, though you can gain DSPs if you use it to knock some one of a cliff or push them to their 'doom' (much like Maul did to Obi-Wan in Ep1). QG & OW didn't get DSPs for using Force Push since it was used as a more defensive measure. (BTW, for the record, I've house-ruled that if you're knocked to 0 WP by a Force Push and make that first Fort Save, you automatically stablize, so it's pretty hard to die from a Force Push in my games.)

Force Lightning and Force Grip, however, both involve using the Force to directly attack someone with the intent to kill. Aside from the calliing on anger/hatred, you are using the Force to directly attack someone with the intent to harm/kill them.

Like I said earlier, most video game designers don't worry about the good/evil aspect of the Force, they just use what looks/sounds cool. Easy for them since they don't have to worry about DSPs for the characters in their game. We, the table-top dice-chuckers, do have to worry about DSPs. It's a case of what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

ALFRED_THE_EWOK
16 March 2002, 09:11 PM
I remember reading in the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook that force lightning is a corruption of the force and you get DSP's no matter why you use it. That's my view on it.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
28 March 2002, 08:14 PM
While reading Tempest Feud's New Starships section I came across the Authority IRD article. In it the advanced auto-ejection system is noted. That got me to thinking about the whole force lightning being an automatic DSP question. In the game there is a good 2 to 3 second time where the target of the FL is feeling the affect of the attack. During this time, if the target is equiped with it, the auto-ejection system would see that the ship was taking fatal damage and eject the pilot barring any malfunction. And since most starfighters have this feature then a Jedi using the Force in this way would only be destroying the ship and the pilot's ability the kill. If a force user were to not have a "time delay" then I can see awarding of a DSP.

Kayle Skolaris
28 March 2002, 08:26 PM
<sigh> Once more from the top, and give it feeling this time...

FORCE LIGHTNING REQUIRES THE WIELDER TO FOCUS ON HATRED, ANGER, AND EVIL AND IS DEFINED AS A PERVERSION OF THE FORCE!!!

What it's used for is not relevent, it's what one must do to learn it as well as what one must feel to wield it that is the factor here. If a character used Bolts of Hatred to clear a path through thick jungle he'd STILL get dark side points for using a power that you must be angry and filled with darkness to wield as well as the fact that the power perverts the force to the Dark Side.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
28 March 2002, 08:48 PM
Let's take a look at the enhance ability skill from WotC - A Jedi can use the Force's Light Side to grant them bonuses to any attibute.

Now let's look at Rage - by focusing through the Dark Side of the Force a Sith or whoever grants themself a bunch of bonuses along with a couple penalties.

What I am saying is that there is a Light Side Power that is VERY similar to the Dark Sides Force Lightning, and for all intents and purposes it has almost the same game mechanics [maybe a little tougher DC] as the Dark Side FL, yet it is drawn from the Light Side of the Force to do good.

All of this depends on how the character uses the power - to save as many lives as possible or for simple love of destruction.

Kayle Skolaris
28 March 2002, 09:12 PM
Refresh my memory, where is the evidence of a Light Side power that's similar to Force Lightning? And do we have game statistics to say it's a Light Side power? Because if it's from a novel or the AoC trailer, then regardless of who used the power we cannot know that they did not gain it through a brief dalliance with the Dark Side. Even Yoda could potentially fall, and no one is immune. We know Yoda will lie to serve his own ends, so his statement that "all Jedi who've messed with the Dark Side have either fallen to it or died" isn't reliable. Unless we have a game stat that says in black and white (or green and purple, or whatever) print that this power is a Light Side power, we can't assume it is.

And just curious what was the Enhance Ability/Rage thing supposed to prove? You mentioned it then went on to rant about how there's a Light Side power that's like Force Lightning.

Dr_Worm
28 March 2002, 10:51 PM
Oh baby I just got an idea based on the use of foce powers while in ship combat. What if a mysterious race slowly and quietly came in to the galaxy. And just as slowly and quietly started abducting Strong Force Adepts, and Jedi Knights. They would be abducted and be wired into some sort if interface on their warships, forcing the Force user to use their powers to attack and defend the ship. A sort of Force battery, powered by enslaved Jedi. Only their not just enslaving Lightsiders, but a reemergence of the Sith as well. The twist is that the Sith and the Jedi would have to work together to fight off the foe.

Ok so it is totally ripped from WoT, and the Alien Race would be the Seanchan, but I still think it is cool and more Star Warsy than the Vong.

darth maim
29 March 2002, 09:25 AM
If you want to do something like this why not just use force lance (found here on the network) ... It in essence is the lightside version of FL. Non lethal (except I'm sure in starship combat as a stunned pilot isn't going to fly for avoidance)...

FL is a darkside ability.. Always has been always will be. I don't give a damn if it looks cool in a video game it's still a bad guy thing to do.

Ash DuQuennes
29 March 2002, 11:25 AM
I agree with Kayle Skolaris and Nazgul on their take on the whole Dark Side/Light Side ar regards Force Lightning. Side note: Kayle, what I've seen of your homebrew is overpowered for my players and campaign settings. To your credit, you do tend to limit and balance your homebrew better than most others I've seen. Your "powers" are indeed powerful, but not necessarily and always munchkin.

And what Donovan said is also one of the reasons I rarely allow PC Game material into my RPG (some things, like the A-Wing w/Concussion Missiles, I allow as a variant of the std. A-Wing, and a few others like that).

But I also agree with Saber that any kind of Force-imbued parry that sends an agressive attack right back into the face of the agressive attacker is not generally worthy of a DSP. If, for instance, a Jedi deflected a blaster bolt back at an attacker with the intention of hitting his hand/arm and disarming him, I would rule that OK. If, however, that Jedi were attempting to put delfected blaster bolts through the brain-pan of their attackers, I would caution them that such activities could eventually lead to DSPs.

That's just my opinion, though.

Kayle Skolaris
29 March 2002, 11:40 AM
The Force is one of the very few things I've always kept a tight reign on in my campaigns. Most Force-imbued attacks are completely unstoppable with conventional defenses, and therefore allowing them into the hands of the PCs without proper pre-planned checks and balances is GM suicide. Force Lightning utterly ignores body armor and force fields. So does Bolts of Hatred if I remember properly. Most Force-imbued attacks are like this and that means they are Uber-Death for any campaign if not strictly controlled. Any idiot with money and the brains to use it can load up on guns and armor and his opponents will likely do the same. Anyone can get these things. But without turning Star Wars into Mage: the Ascension and have every third NPC you meet be a Force User, there's simply no way of keeping a Force User with a few attack powers in check short of killing off his character, something I am exceedingly loathe to do, even under the worst provocation. So to prevent being placed into a position where I might have to do that to save a campaign, I just make sure the situation never arises. Unless the campaign is meant to be Dark Side from the start, the moment your character gets that sixth DSP (I don't do the "roll die, if it's less than current DSPs, he falls" thing... Just don't like it.) he's mine. Permanently. Go get a character sheet and start looking up skills and gear.

That's just how my games are. I've got no problem with my players walking around in enough battle armor to make Gundam pilots jealous, because that's easily dealt with. It's the Force-imbued attack powers that I watch out for. And as a GM who wants my fellow GMs to succeed, I suggest that all of you do the same!

darth maim
29 March 2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Ash DuQuennes
If, for instance, a Jedi deflected a blaster bolt back at an attacker with the intention of hitting his hand/arm and disarming him, I would rule that OK. If, however, that Jedi were attempting to put delfected blaster bolts through the brain-pan of their attackers, I would caution them that such activities could eventually lead to DSPs.

That's just my opinion, though.

I've got to dissagree about deflecting blaster bolts... it was never shown that Luke or any other Jedi was attempting to merely disable their foes with deflected blasters... this is the purest form of self defense. Come on man... the person just shot at you with the full intent to kill you.. you taking them out with their own ammo isn't evil it's irony.

Kayle Skolaris
29 March 2002, 02:09 PM
In the eyes of the Force any and all needless death is evil, regardless of what the intent of one party or the other was. If a death can be prevented and is not, evil has been committed.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
29 March 2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
In the eyes of the Force any and all needless death is evil, regardless of what the intent of one party or the other was. If a death can be prevented and is not, evil has been committed.

So if a Jedi Starfighter pilot destroys another starship with normal weapons in 5 rounds and during that 5 rounds the jedi's target kills 3 of the pilots on your side the jedi gets a DSP for not using the Light Side Force Lightning to destroy the starfighter the very first round?

Kayle Skolaris
29 March 2002, 06:08 PM
I'm afraid I'm incapable of answering that as in the universe I live in there's no such thing as "light side force lightning" regardless of what some stupid comic book says (or more importantly, DIDN'T say).

Ash DuQuennes
29 March 2002, 06:22 PM
darth maim: I agree that doing so is poetic justice, but it isn't necessarily what a Jedi should be doing. It smacks of "punishment," synonymous with "retribution" or maybe even "revenge."

Hence my previous statement that deflecting fire back at an attacker with intent to kill is not always and ever bad, but that Jedi PCs shouldn't get used to making a habit of doing so. It's situational at best.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
29 March 2002, 11:39 PM
It is my belief that it's the Jedi's way to, once all other paths have been taken or are shown as being impossible, that a Jedi should finish the matter as quickly and with the least loss of life as possible.

You stated this opinion:


Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
In the eyes of the Force any and all needless death is evil, regardless of what the intent of one party or the other was. If a death can be prevented and is not, evil has been committed.

I presented an example using your opinion:


Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi
So if a Jedi Starfighter pilot destroys another starship with normal weapons in 5 rounds and during that 5 rounds the jedi's target kills 3 of the pilots on your side the jedi gets a DSP for not using the Light Side Force Lightning to destroy the starfighter the very first round?

You then attacked the medium that I was using as a source:


Originally posted by Kayle Skolaris
regardless of what some stupid comic book says

I sent you a PMed summery so that you could better understand this thread and give an informed response. However, this last remark of yours shows that either you didn't have the patience or the respect of your fellow HoloNet members to acually read the thread before you post something.

Mathis Kharr
30 March 2002, 12:42 AM
I read the post about the one darkside point for Froce lightning thing that was posted, and I have to agree with it even if others do not. I think you get darkside points based on acts of increasing evil not the same old evil every time. that would explain vaders 16 dsp in his carreer as a villain

Ash DuQuennes
30 March 2002, 06:20 AM
Only 16? Whatta wimp. Given free reign, I could do that in one adventure without getting my hands dirty or messing up my hair (you must have your priorities, you know).

Mathis Kharr
30 March 2002, 09:34 AM
Ya thats what I thought to but if it's so easy to get Dsp why dioes vader have 16? only 16

Kayle Skolaris
30 March 2002, 10:03 AM
No, I don't have much respect for anyone trying to figure out a lame-brained way of giving Light Side Force Users force lightning powers and I never will. It's utterly contrary to everything I believe the Light/Dark dichotomy of the Force was constructed to represent. It's like trying to find a way to give an AD&D Paladin the Thief's Backstab modifier. It's utterly contrary to the entire concept of a Paladin and deserves absolutely no respect whatsoever.

Krad-edis
30 March 2002, 10:22 AM
Frobiwan,

I replied to your earlier post, and I have to agree with Kayle. I tried to give you something that you could work with, and I along with so many others don't see how you can have a power (similar to force lightning) which is used to utterly destroy something as a lightside power. This kind of stuff is fine for video games and possibly for comics, but everything I have read and seen in movies dealing with Force Lightning is that it is dark side. The Ionization Power (In the D6 forum), that I posted in response to your request, which you may have liked or scoffed at is something I would consider to be neutral. It, like Force Push can be used to subdue or knock an opponent out of commission, something which seems to be Jedi-like, yet awfully powerful (something I wouldn't allow in my games) still to say the least, and can be used for evil just like Force Push.

I can say that I at least tried to help you out in this matter, but I have a question for you, in case you absolutely insist that the targeted ship be destroyed:

If you wish to end a conflict in a starship (by destroying the other ship) as quickly as possible (no other way around it), why dabble with potential dark side powers? Use your ships lasers...thats what they are there for.

Kayle Skolaris
30 March 2002, 10:46 AM
BTW, at Yavin, according to D6 stats, Vader had 14 DSPs, at Hoth he had 25, and at Endor he had 30. The Emperor at Endor had 43 DSPs and he had 50 DSPs years later during Dark Empire.

The way I handle gaining DSPs varies depending on which side of the Force a character is currently on. If he's still on the side of Light, he gets a DSP for every act of evil, period. If he uses Force Lightning seven times in one day, he gets seven DSPs, and on that seventh use the character, assuming it was formerly a PC, becomes mine as he just fell to the Dark Side. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

If the character is already on the side of Darkness, he must commit ever-greater acts of evil to get new DSPs. Falling is fast, but once you're there it's hard to "advance" further into Darkness.

The Admiral
31 March 2002, 10:45 AM
First off, lemme just say that if any player of mine wanted to use Force Lightning inside their fighter, they'd very rapidlly find out how tough it is to fly a fighter with fried avionics.


I'd hold out with the Force Lightning is electricity for two reasons;

A Several Force Powers are concerned with imparting certain kinds of energy to other things. Telekinesis is esentially imparting controlled kinetic energy to an object. There are Force Powers where the user radiates light, or heat. I can't see any real reason why the same wouldn't hold true of electricity.

B: Applying KISS, in the film we both see and hear it, and it LOOKS like lightning, and it SOUNDS like lightning. In the novelisation, it also SMELLS like lightning, and FEELS like lightning. It also kills Vader by frying the electronics of his cybernetics, so it ACTS like lightning. IMHO, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is floating in a pond, then it's probably not an elephant.

As to an idea why FL would give a DSP regardless of use, then one might suggest that this is due to the teaching. It would seem to me that the various Force skills are taught in certain manners. Were the Sith school to teach that Force Lightning requires you to delve deep into your inner hatred and anger, then sure, yeah, OK, it makes sense for that Force Power to constitute a DSP. There may be a different way of doing it, say, a Tyia adept skill that does the same thing, but the methodology is different.

Long and the short of it, if you want to have PCs using Force Lightning without having an automatic DSP, then it's your game, you can do what you like.

Final thought though, IMHO, if you want to run a game that FEELS right, then good characters shouldn't do things that look palpably evil. Force Lightning LOOKS evil.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
31 March 2002, 11:01 AM
In the game it doesn't act like lightning. What it does is after you target the ship you want activate the Force Power and Lightning only appears around you target and many some of the enemy close by if you did it right. This isn't having a Jedi stick their hand up and having lightning shoot from their fingertips.

Ghost In The Holocron
31 March 2002, 11:30 AM
Frobi: To help steer away from misinterpretation, can I suggest another name for your ship-vs-ship "lightning"? (Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is great!). Maybe Force Ion Burst or something like that?

Moridin
31 March 2002, 11:33 AM
I've also got to agree that I think this is one case where you have to discount the game as continuity. I mean, there are some things that work with the real SW universe, and some that are just there for video gaming.

That being said, I would say that IF you wanted to do something like this, you could make it a little different from Force Lightning and still remain true to the concept. Perhaps she is merely collecting ionized particle around her target with the Force (similer to that light trick the Arcona Jedi does in Star by Star), which would account for the swirling energy that appears around the craft. Then, once she's excited the particles enough, she releases them at her target, whcih acts like a lightning bolt even in space. It jumps from craft to craft due to its attraction to metal, and can cause the ships to come apart, especially the flimsy droid starfighters or TIE Fighters.

Krad-edis
31 March 2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by The Admiral
As to an idea why FL would give a DSP regardless of use, then one might suggest that this is due to the teaching. It would seem to me that the various Force skills are taught in certain manners. Were the Sith school to teach that Force Lightning requires you to delve deep into your inner hatred and anger, then sure, yeah, OK, it makes sense for that Force Power to constitute a DSP. There may be a different way of doing it, say, a Tyia adept skill that does the same thing, but the methodology is different.

That could be, but I really refer to what the books say about the power.

Page 47, WEG Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, also page 57 of WEG Tales of the Jedi Companion:

"A Jedi who uses this power for ANY REASON immediately gains a Dark Side Point."

also stated.......

"This power is a CORRUPTION of the force."

Two WEG sources which say the same thing. What about D20?

"Using this feat requires an attack action and gives you a Dark Side Point."

The D20 version also shows how horrible this power is based on if a target fails their saving throw, they take full damage and lose a force point.

This is a really nasty power. It seems to be based on focusing hate and anger, which is why D6 seems to have the rule: If you use it no matter what, you get a DSP. Even using it on a droid, a ship, or another evil character will give you a DSP....not necessarily for the intent (for good or evil) , but for using a corruption of the force which is primarily fueled on anger and hate.

In my campaigns, I really do consider Force Lightning to be a power in which if someone is strong enough in the force, and get angry enough, they will get this power or feat for free. Almost zero control, but the power is still there making it very dangerous to the intended target and to themselves.

FrobiwanKenobi, I really do second what the Admiral said about doing what you wish in your own games, as it should be. I am not necessarily talking about Force Lightning usage, but instead go ahead and modify the existing stats of Force Lightning to where it is almost a Telekinetic Ionization instead of FORCE LIGHTNING. The difficulties and Control and Alter powers would be used the same way as FORCE LIGHTNING, but wouldn't be the horrible power that this thread is indirectly asking about.

WARNING: POSSIBLE SPOILER QUESTION FOR NJO:














For all of those NJO buffs out there, didn't Jaina use Force Lightning? Who taught her? If she learned it by just getting super pissed, then it really is a corruption.

The Admiral
31 March 2002, 01:23 PM
Two WEG sources which say the same thing.
Oh yes, I'm not disputing the DSP ruling, I was trying to give an idea of WHY it's there; the Sith teach you how to send bolts out of your fingers by drawing on the dark side. By introducing the teaching element, you also introduce the capacity to explain why it may be possible to do a similar power without drawing on the dark side.

The FL debate keeps popping it's head up every now and again, and seems to be split between those who say "Well, FLing an electric fence so it shorts out isn't evil, so WHY?" and those who say "It's DARK SIDE STUFF, just let it be."

This is probably due to the DSP rule being one of the most blatantly stated rules in the whole WEG system (Dunno about D20) but it's not really covered as to why this is so. (I'd say it's OBVIOUSLY an evil power, just look at it! Crackle crackle!)

One of the major work intensive projects I have stashed in my pending folder is a revised Force System, (which is including the school concept) one of the main things I'm trying to do is make the number of force powers a lot leaner. I've been toying with the idea that instead of Force Lightning (And associate powers, like Conduit, Force Light etc) of having a 'Emanate Energy' power, that covers the abilties of all of these. One element of this plan is to have the actual appearance of powers related to the kind of person using them, so Palpatine would be using Emanate Energy, which manifests as lightning because he's fundamentally cruel. Were a Jedi to use it, it could appear as glowing mist, or as light tendrils ala Azreal (I think) in Diabolo 2.
That element can carry over to lots of other powers. Telepathy, for example. Good people manifest telepathy as a soothing calm voice, evil people as a grating command, with stabbing pains in the head. <shrugs> Guess where I'm going with this is that evil things gets you DSPs, it's not always clear why. But the rules are fluid, and designed to be, and you can work new ways of doing things in to suit your game style. I'd still say that in Star Wars, Jedi lobbing lightning out of their fingers (or indeed around their ship) just feels wrong, it's an evil thing.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
31 March 2002, 05:14 PM
I thank Moridin for coming in here and helping clear things a bit.

I think that the designers of Jedi Starfighter would have done better to have called this power by another name, but they didn't.

My motives for this thread were to see about creating stats to go along with these skills shown in the game by Master Gallia. However, I think that instead of skills for these force powers I am going to use them as SQs in a Jedi Starfighter Master (OK I know that it doesn't sound as cool as the Jedi Weapon Master) PrC, which I will either submit or post in the WotC RPG forum.

Another thing that will probably create even more discussion is the Force Shockwave power which acts almost like the Haterd feat from the WotC DSSB except on a starfighter scale.

Ghost In The Holocron
31 March 2002, 05:49 PM
from FrobiWanKenobi:

However, I think that instead of skills for these force powers I am going to use them as SQs in a Jedi Starfighter Master...

I think that's a good idea, Frobi -- I for one am looking forward to seeing it on the forums or in Submissions. Great work with those alien conversions by the way.

Donovan Morningfire
31 March 2002, 06:07 PM
Hey Frobi,
Instead of doing a whole new Prestige Class, why not tack on 5 extra levels to the Jedi Ace? Just make the funky Force effects you see in Jedi Starfighter game a series of SQ gained through levels 6 to 10?

The Jedi Ace and Starfighter Master sound conceptually the same, so why reinvent the entire car when you can just reshape the chassis? :D

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
31 March 2002, 07:20 PM
Thank you Ghost (for some reason no one has said anything about them and I don't know if thats good or bad)

I did take another look at the Jedi Ace Donovan and I did think about adding it on but comments like those are best suited for the d20 forum where I will start a thread later.

Thank all of you for your input on this subject. And I apologize if sometimes I didn't explain things clear enough.

Moridin
31 March 2002, 10:55 PM
My suggestion is to make them applications of existing skills. I am becoming more and more a fan of just giving new uses to existing skills, because it really does fit in well with the way the Star Wars Universe seems to work. You could make it an application of the Move Object skill with a high DC in d20, and in D6 you could make it an application of Telekinesis with a high Difficulty (maybe Difficult, scalable to Heroic for multiple targets).

PapaSith1
8 May 2002, 04:28 PM
just a quick note: some powers like this one, give you a DSP when useing because it is used in anger almost always. so if you decided to start a camp fire with it you still get a DSP since its fueled by either anger, hate or something of the sort

Smokem_Alien
7 August 2002, 09:34 AM
I do not believe that hate and anger are the only ways to create force lightning. When master Yoda redirected it in AotC he had to close his eyes and concentrate very hard in order to gain control of the lightning and send it back. If it was a corruption and pure darkside he would of been trying to dispel it instead of redirect. I also think that if you create it through concentration and peace then you can have enough control over it to recharge a fuel cell or short circuit a mother board and leave other componenets un touched.

kingnat
9 August 2002, 04:29 AM
I don't accept that theory.

If force lightning wasn't neccesarily evil, then surely Yoda, the oldest and most powerful jedi in the council would have been able to use it? Instead, he just threw it back at Dooku.

If it wasn't evil, surely we wouldn't see it being used only by the darkside jedi/sith?

kingnat
9 August 2002, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by PapaSith1
just a quick note: some powers like this one, give you a DSP when useing because it is used in anger almost always. so if you decided to start a camp fire with it you still get a DSP since its fueled by either anger, hate or something of the sort

Yeah, it's like the power in the Jedi Acadamy sourcebook "Aura of Uneasiness" (or something similar) Even though you're using it to kep insects away from you it's a darkside power, since you're messing around with the very balance of life, or the force if you will. You should be using a bloody insect repellant or a frickin' firelighter block!:D

Aldaron
26 August 2002, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by Smokem_Alien
I do not believe that hate and anger are the only ways to create force lightning. When master Yoda redirected it in AotC he had to close his eyes and concentrate very hard in order to gain control of the lightning and send it back. If it was a corruption and pure darkside he would of been trying to dispel it instead of redirect. I also think that if you create it through concentration and peace then you can have enough control over it to recharge a fuel cell or short circuit a mother board and leave other componenets un touched.

Ahhh...but Yoda didn't send it back at anyone. IIRC, he deflected it aside, into the walls and ceiling. To my knowledge, he never sent it back at Dooku (nor did he fling the heavy stuff Dooku was throwing about back at him, either - just stopped them, or deflected them away)

Actually, if FL was not inherently evil, but rather, the use of it on someone is evil, it would come under a similar auspice to Force Strike. If that was the case, we should have seen FL flying thick and fast over the Geonosian arena, with 100 Jedi frying droids left, right and centre (if you can Force Strike 'em, you can Force Fry 'em, since they're not living creatures). Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon happily Force Strike battle droids by the bucketful, but the only people we've seen use it on a living creature are Darth Maul and Anakin.

Same goes for FL. If it was okay if the intent isn't to hurt anyone, Jedi could fry battle droids with it.

Yet we never see it happen.

The only people we've seen use it are the Emperor and Dooku.

I dunno...looking at the on-screen evidence here, I'm starting to see a bit of a case building up for it being Bad Guy Stuff!

(And don't bother to throw game stuff at me in defence, please! :) LucasArts games don't even rate a mention in the hierarchy of canon - way, way down the list, even lower than the Ewok movies...)

Nope. FL is for Bad Guys. Period.

Smokem_Alien
27 August 2002, 06:18 AM
The reason I believe you don't see Jedi using it is because it is a very difficult power to master through calm and concentration. You will notice that both people seen using Force lightning are extremly old. They have had time to master the skill and using the darkside makes it all the more easier to learn. And Yoda did redirect the first FL back at dooku who caught it and redirected it back to yoda who then dissipatated it.

Krad-edis
27 August 2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Smokem_Alien
And Yoda did redirect the first FL back at dooku who caught it and redirected it back to yoda who then dissipatated it.


I could be wrong, but I saw it this way:

Yoda deflected the first blast of lightning from Dooku into the ceiling. Yoda dissipated the second blast. Yoda did not sling lightning at anyone. Dooku threw rubble at Yoda. Yoda caught the rubble but did not sling the heavy rubble back at Dooku. Yoda did not use the force aggressively. Yoda did whip mucho Sitho with his lightsaber.......the Jedi way.

As I started out.....I could be wrong. I saw the movie only twice. It just did not impress me that Yoda was attacking until he drew his lightsaber......Then he was on full advance.

If I am wrong, one thing I do know for sure is that Yoda did not initiate the power....Dooku did. So whether Yoda is blocking the attack, or hitting the attacker with his own weapon...I don't see how it is a DSP for Yoda.

Smokem_Alien
28 August 2002, 06:30 AM
I might be wrong too. I know Yoda didn't fling the rocks back at Dooku but I thought he did redirect the lightning. Can't remeber. And I wasn't suggesting that Yoda deserved a DSP. I can tell you one thing though, Yoda must at least Know how to create and use force lightning or he would never have been able tocatch it and disipatate it.

LiquidSaber
28 August 2002, 10:02 AM
Just for reference for those of the "Luke did it so it must be ok!" crowd:
By the end of Episode VI Luke has 3 DSPs (RCR p. 302).

This is a minimum mind you, which does not included possible force points spent to cancel out DSPs (we can only guess how many) but the minimum of 3 stands and I think the force grips he did in Jabba's palace comfortably fall into those "3".

Aldaron
31 August 2002, 04:40 PM
Hmmm...I don't think you need to know how to create Force Lightning to be able to dispel it - I'm sure Vader couldn't shoot blaster-bolts from his hands, either, but he managed to stop Han's shots. Also, the novelisation of RotJ talks about Luke using the Force to somewhat lessen the impact of the Emperor's lightning.

Besides which...according to D20 rules, Yoda could use FL if he wished - it's an untrained-use skill; he just doesn't.

As for Luke's DSPs...well, funnily enough, considering my position on this thread, I don't believe Force Grip automatically nets you a DSP. IMO, it's merely an application of telekinesis (or Move object), just applied to someone's throat.

If you use it to deliberately cause pain, suffering or to kill someone, yeah, you get a DSP. Luke, however, very calmly, without anger or hatred, "touched" the throats of the Gamorreans to scare them off. His alternative was to kill them.

If I was GMing RotJ, he wouldn't have gotten a DSP for that.

IMO, Luke's 3 DSPs come from his angry attack on the Stormtroopers after Kenobi is cut down on the Death Star, his "failure at the cave", and his infuriated attack on Vader in Ep VI.