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View Full Version : Tired of the Not Canon, Canon arguement!



Soontide
23 March 2002, 07:05 AM
Whenever I talk to my friends about starwars and bring up a point from one of the novels, the most common counter for this is " well, the novels aren't canon". I'm sorry but thats a cop out. I'm sorry if some people would rather watch a movie screen than burry their noses in a good book. I've come to the conclusion that the reason the non-canon novel arguement is used so much is that there are a huge number of star wars fans who like to seem smart, but have never read one of the books! So, they curculate this non-canon myth.
Fact: Lucas approves each and every story line of the books. If they don't live up to the star wars universe standards, they don't make it to print. Every ship, every character and every species brought up in the books are approved by the big guy, so why would they not be considered official source for star wars information?
Fact: Though Lucas reserved the right in the beginning, to change any part of the future of star wars whenever he wanted, he has taken great pains to make sure that there were no conflicts in the novel series. The video games and comics are a different matter. They seem to contridict themselves sometimes from issue to issue or version to version. So, before someone argues that the comics and videos conflict with anything else, I don't disagree that they are not exactly canon as they are so convoluted in nature.
Fact: The authors of the novels rely on eachother to make sure that their characters and situations flow smothly from one novel to another. The character personalities remain intact no matter who is writing them and the technology works in a predictable and expected way. In other words, if the Jade Fire can't outfly a Tie Defender in one novel, then it can't in another.


So, in conclusion, if someone else counters an arguement about SW with the old not canon arguement, ask them if they read. chances are, they read star trek novels as they are short enough for a movie addicts attention span.

Roll Tide!

BrianDavion
23 March 2002, 08:22 AM
most people use the cannon arguement, or at least when I do so, use it to argue why we can discard a lline of BS that has been perpetuated for years in the offical sources despite massive and obvious errors.

I don't care WHAT WEG and the other say, it's OBVIOUS the SSD is a lot bigger then 8 KM.

then you also have the so called purests. these people dislike the books (and while some of the books are good others are less so are approuch "hack" levels) and think TPM was the anti-christ of Star Wars,

most people who use the "not cannon" arguement in my experiance are anything but impataint iliterate morons who read crappy trek books (actually some of the trek books aren't bad most do suck but there are a few good ones) hell the cannon arguement is most often used to dismiss absurdly low figures the wars novels attribite to wars weaponry in vs trek arguements.

I mean if KJA says "a ISD has insufficant firepower to vaporise an astroid:" and someone says that I'm going to say "bull, we saw an ISD do just that in TESB"

dgswensen
23 March 2002, 08:33 AM
People get really worked up about this issue. I once got involved in a canon vs. non-canon argument that got so heated, the forum moderators of the site we were discussing on called a moratorium on it and BANNED all further discussion of the topic!

It seems to me one of those extremely subjective issues, sometimes almost religious in nature. Some say the movies are canon, and that's it -- period. Others say the novels are canon because Lucasfilm has said so -- but yet OTHERS will demand hard evidence of Lucasfilm saying so, or they won't believe it. And so on, and so forth. Really, the only winning move is not to play.

As far as roleplaying is concerned, canon is what you make it. I run a game that regularly flaunts canon. Events have even take place that would modify what happened in the movies. Why? Because who wants to play in this locked-down, impossible-to-change universe where everything cool has already done by some character in some novel? The heck with that!

Chris Curtis
23 March 2002, 09:31 AM
There is a known list of what items are considered "canon". Any items that have been approved by Lucasfilm (note that I said Lucasfilm, and not George Lucas. The big man himself doesn't personally approve all the things) are "official".

Basically, though, one of the reasons that "canon" and "official" are stressed so often on a board like this is so that we'll all be able to speak from the same frame of reference.

Lots of times people will post some stats for items that are quite a bit more powerful than those found in the published books. People will comment on them and say they seem too powerful. Then the author will reply and explain what kind of power level exists in their campaign, etc. If the author had explained that at the beginning and helped establish the frame of reference, then people could have commented more constructively since they would have had a base from which to compare (instead of having to default back to the power level of the published items).

Similarly, when we discuss things in the SWU, we can run into lots of trouble if we don't have some kind of common base to work from. In many cases, canon/official designations help provide that base.

Of course, the funny thing is that a lot of people who stress using canon/official (and I'm one of them) also have their own personal SWU where they might incorporate some of the official or even non-official sources and might even remove things that are "canon". This type of thing is fairly common.

Man, I sure rambled on there. I'm not even sure what I've said... :D

Nova Spice
23 March 2002, 10:14 AM
I remember discussing this eight or nine months ago during the summer break and stood strongly in favor that the STAR WARS novels are "canon." My main belief behind the fact that GL approves MOST of the novels is mainly due to Timothy Zahn. If effect, Zahn created Coruscant, the name anyway and George Lucas used the name in ROTJ:SE and TPM(albeit I'm sure he hated Planet of Twilight, The Crystal Star, and Children of the Jedi).
Now I think we can agree that some novels shouldn't have been written much less considered canon, and those novels we ignore. However, a vast majority such as The Truce at Bakura (even though I didn't really like this one), the X-wing novels, The Courtship of Princess Leia, the Thrawn Trilogy, The Hand of Thrawn Trilogy, and The NJO are all great novels and fit into the whole scheme of STAR WARS very well. And yes, to you NJO critics, GL actually was one of the brainchilds for the NJO, so even if you hate that Chewie is dead, NJO is "canon." I mean George Lucas layed out the storyline to he authors and they all met at Skywalker Ranch to discuss the NJO plot. That's a stated fact I read in an interview with R.A. Salvatore and Kathy Tyers.
Basically, I've read every EU novel and thus consider the ones I like as canon." Essentially to me,"canon" is a made up word. ;)

DirkGreystoke
23 March 2002, 01:17 PM
I feel it is necessary to dispel two myths that have perpetrated in this thread.

1. George Lucas does not, and never has, OKed any specific story for the star wars novels. Soontide, I am sorry, but you are 100% wrong. The only exception to this is the new novel by Alan Dean Foster that takes place before the Phantom Menace. Lucas did not create the NJO storyline, and it was not his idea. The only input that Lucas gave to the authors was that Sith could not be bad guys in the books. The only directives Lucas gave Zahn about his books was that he could not have a clone of Obi-Wan, so he had to change the character to Jorus C'boath. This type of yes/no input is all the input Lucas gives to the books. The idea to kill Chewie, and the entire NJO storyline, was created by the senoir editors at Lucasfilm and the pulishers. Therefore the books are not cannon because Lucas has very little if not any input in them at all. So Nova, Lucas was not the "brainchild of the New Jedi Order" as you claim. Lucas also does not decide what gets printed and what does not. This screening process he has regulated to Steve Sansweet and others within the Lucasfilm Corporation. Lucas is far to busy trying to complete the films at this point and time.

2. The only real problem I have with the EU is when they mess with the Star Wars universe. I'll keep this short by using only one example. Tales of the Jedi's sith swords. Every SW source has said over and over again that the only thing that can block a lightsaber is another lightsaber. The idea of a sword that can block it is just plain stupid, not to mention the contorsis crap that automatically deactivates a lightsaber? There is no evidence to support this in the films, and it makes no sense to me at all.

3. The last problem I have with the EU is that people use it to try and substantiate legitimate questions from the films. Again Tales of the Jedi will be my example, since I am tired of ranting on the NJO. There was a thread months ago about the origins of the Sith, and what Yoda meant by his comments in the film about there always being two. Someone chimed in talking about Naga Sadow, which is irrelevant to the person's orginal question...since Lucas did not write those comics.

So if you are tired of the Eu vs cannon thread then all one has to do is be careful about what one posts. Don't use EU sources to try and substantiate claims when someone is asking a question about the movies, because they do not apply. And as for what is cannon and what is not, Lucas is very clear. Cannon is the films and only the films. Chris, you need to jet over to starwars.com and see their response to the cannon question. Steve Sansweet defines "absolute cannon" and the film and only the films.

As for what to use in your game, that is up to a GM. The Star Wars game is about having fun, so use whatever you want to have a fun time. Hope this wasn't too long.

Soontide
23 March 2002, 02:15 PM
Thanks guys. This is the first time I've ever posted this type of thread here and my head is still intact! At the other sites that I have visited, I usually get creamed by everyone who wants to hear only canon info even when dealing with non-movie info! One example: The question was, what, in your opinion, is the fasted starfighter in the star wars universe. One fellow, the first poster, stated that the A wing was. I posted that the Tie defender was rated as being faster than the A wing. there was no mention of "only in the movies" or I would have said the A wing or Tie Interceptor as those were the two fastest ships shown there. I was blasted for not staying with canon!

I appreciate the intelligent and thought provoking replies to this thread and thank you DirkGreystoke for clearing up that thing about Lucas approving all of the novels. It may be different now that he is involved with his movies. :)

darth maim
23 March 2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by DirkGreystoke
So if you are tired of the Eu vs cannon thread then all one has to do is be careful about what one posts. Don't use EU sources to try and substantiate claims when someone is asking a question about the movies, because they do not apply. And as for what is cannon and what is not, Lucas is very clear. Cannon is the films and only the films. Chris, you need to jet over to starwars.com and see their response to the cannon question. Steve Sansweet defines "absolute cannon" and the film and only the films.

Actually not everyone wants only canon answers... So I say post it all and if someone is only concerned with canon ignore the posts that don't fit with this narrow view and reply to the question at hand with your canon sources. You're basically saying if you can't come from pure canon don't post. I equate this to smoking. Canon purists being smokers... From what you are saying here it translates to something like don't like smoke don't breathe...


As for what to use in your game, that is up to a GM. The Star Wars game is about having fun, so use whatever you want to have a fun time.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
24 March 2002, 11:16 PM
You know my take on Canon? It's very simple: EVERYTHING is Canon. The Ewok Adventure, the Marvel comics, the really bad kids books with the Glove of Darth Vader, Dark Empire, Lando getting it on with Mara - the whole nine yards. Every single bit of it is canon, and it all fits. How, you ask? Simple - my idea is this: the Robin Hood theory.

See, Robin and his merry men got so big and so ingrained in mythology, that eventually he was everywhere and did everything. Over time, the adventures of Robin Hood have become so exaggerated that every little village and stopover in England has laid claim to a piece of the mythology, no matter how small. At this point it's impossible to tell what is truth and what is fiction.

The same thing happens with every larger than life figure in history - King Authur, Buffilo Bill, Santa Claus. How many towns on the East Coast have a historical marker proclaiming that "George Washington slept here"?

So, why should Star Wars be any different?

Lets put it this way: where was the first face-to-face encounter between Luke and Vader? The board of tourism on Bespin advertises that it was in the depths of Cloud City - and run daily tours to the site. However there are tales told by drunken Mimbanites that the Lost Temple of Pojimia was the site of their first duel. While the Priests of Order of the Sacred Circle on Monastery claim that Vader and Skywalker's first meeting was in the their Crystal Forest.

You see it's ALL true, and yet none of it is. The story of Luke, Han and Leia has gotten so big and timeless that it's taken on a life of it's own. In that light - what is canon? We may never know what the truth is.

Simple, no?

Tony J Case, Super Genius
24 March 2002, 11:32 PM
Woah - double post. My bad.

technopooka
25 March 2002, 04:10 AM
I love it when people get to these canon vs. non canon threads. I see how vehement everyone is with their SW universe.

Is there a need for any of these debates? I say no... Why? Because every one runs their games differently. If you don't want the Crotosis weave to turn off lightsabers then it doesn't. If you don't want sith swords to block lightsabers, then it doesn't. The whole thing about the expanded universe is that people get to add something to it in their own way.

If you don't like Samus' from the Rifts RPG or you do not some of the races in traveller or don't like it if Star Wars is run in a more Anime style, then well my vision of the Star Wars Expanded Universe is not for you. But I will never turn you away from one of my games.

I guess what I am trying to say is, the Star Wars Universe is what you want it to be not what everyone else tells you it is. Have funn with what you want to do with it. Perhaps these types of threads, when started, should be squashed by the moderators when they start. I say this only because they create to much bad blood when they do start.


Technopooka
Dark Lord of the Prank
The Sugar-Free Diet Shasta of evil
:rolleyes:

technopooka
25 March 2002, 04:22 AM
I love it when people get to these canon vs. non canon threads. I see how vehement everyone is with their SW universe.

Is there a need for any of these debates? I say no... Why? Because every one runs their games differently. If you don't want the Crotosis weave to turn off lightsabers then it doesn't. If you don't want sith swords to block lightsabers, then it doesn't. The whole thing about the expanded universe is that people get to add something to it in their own way.

If you don't like Samus' from the Rifts RPG or you do not some of the races in traveller or don't like it if Star Wars is run in a more Anime style, then well my vision of the Star Wars Expanded Universe is not for you. But I will never turn you away from one of my games.

I guess what I am trying to say is, the Star Wars Universe is what you want it to be not what everyone else tells you it is. Have funn with what you want to do with it. Perhaps these types of threads, when started, should be squashed by the moderators when they start. I say this only because they create to much bad blood when they do start.


Technopooka
Dark Lord of the Prank
The Sugar-Free Diet Shasta of evil
:rolleyes:

grizzly
25 March 2002, 05:12 AM
I have a GM who isn't real keen on most of the EU stuff.. he'll read the Thrawn books, but that's about it.
He also hates Jar Jar with a passion.
Our game is set around the timeframe of TPM on Tatooine, but in the background. The thing I find the funniest I suppose, is that at the last game he threatened to dock me XP for mentioning something to do with the EU. I shut up and retreated to the Tatooine sourcebook to check some stuff, and lo and behold, what I was mentioning was in there, cos WotC use the ready made source of character backgrounds/info in the books. Does it seem strange to anyone else that a GM who hates "noncanon" EU is also willing to mess with the "canon" movie versions of events, and yet play a game that is outright EU anyway? Or is that just my weird sense of humour? :?8o :D


Edit: Oh yeah, within my local SW mob, if anyone has a question about the greater EU SWU (books,stats etc), who do you reckon they ask first??:p It's all a bit of escapism, just kick back and enjoy the ride

BrianDavion
25 March 2002, 08:01 AM
yup. WOTC makes use of the EU... fact is to play the RPG you play in EU. so.. why not sue the EU. I tend to ignore something about EU, the 8KM SSD statement but if it doesn't clearly contridict the movies I'll use it

Faraer
25 March 2002, 10:39 AM
1. 'Canon' is used to mean two quite different things:
A. a device to determine what material new Star Wars has to be consistent with. The movies bear in mind the movies. The EU bears in mind the movies and the EU.
B. what is 'real', 'authentic', etc. Your view on this may depend on what you want and what you value.
People often wrongly conflate A and B. It's possible to discuss B constructively, but apparently rare.

2. The LucasArts games are more directly overseen by George Lucas than almost all the books, comics, etc., so -- bearing in mind distortions due to gameplay factors -- they are at least as reliable a source for the Star Wars galaxy.

reliant
25 March 2002, 12:05 PM
My big problem with the "cannon vs non-cannon" debate is the PEOPLE who like to say it. It just bugs me when people are like "well you know that's not cannon" or "well the cannon is...". It's just annoying. It's as of the people saying this are trying to tell me that they know better. I have read most of the books (including the majority of the NJO books) and seen the movies more times than I can count and I hardly consider myself an expert. I wouldn't jump down someone's throat about cannon no matter what. Besides, this place is ROLE PLAYING forum. We aren't writing the next movie here people... Since we're the game masters WE decide what is and is not "cannon" in OUR universes. If we think that an SSD is 8km long, then that is EXACTLY how long it is. (personally I think it is much bigger, but that's just me). Technopooka hit the nail right on the head in his post that these debates are bad for business. I don't mean a rant about it, I mean the debates that inevitablly spring up in the regular posts when people get up on their high horses and start attacking those who suggest things that are not "cannon".

Soontide
25 March 2002, 12:33 PM
This is exactly what I was trying to say in the origional post. Its not the fact that there is a heirarchy of what is acceptable information for certian aspects of star wars, its the absolute hubris that some people have with their knowlegde of the movies. In my experience, when it comes right down to it, when someone screams "not canon" in my games its because I just used some EU tech or ability that foiled their dasterdly play to put one over on the GM. In other words, the Canon-Not canon arguement is used way to much to pump up egos.
Secondly, I love this thread. Noone has launched a personal attack or even gotten overly heated in their posts. you guys and gals are great debaters and let me salute you all for that. We need to have intelligent discussions on these topics for those who come here looking for info on stuff just like this. Think of the young, impressionable new GM who has just been slapped with the not canon arguement in one of his games. What does this GM do? In threads like this, he can get differing views on Canon and maybe be able to counter that player with the arguement *The GM is god and if I say its canon in my game, then it most definately is*. Thanks for helping these people out with you intelligent and thought provoking words.

BrianDavion
25 March 2002, 01:20 PM
a SSD ain't 8KM long, it's 16 KM Long.. more threatening that way darn it! :)

darth maim
25 March 2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by technopooka
If you don't like Samus' from the Rifts RPG

Who wouldn't like the samus armor?? :D

darth maim
25 March 2002, 04:09 PM
I also agree that this thread has been handled well and in an intelligent manner. Now also let me say that I"m glad we are able to discuss this here rather than in every other thread... I said as much in another thread right before this popped up.

Mathis Kharr
25 March 2002, 09:06 PM
As far as I have been told the Novels are official meaning to say if lucas weanted he could trmple all over what they established..

grizzly
26 March 2002, 04:23 AM
Side Track...ahh the ole 8Km SSD chestnut :) That was brought up in one of the other topics as well :) I tend to go by what's been fairly well thought out in the Technical commentaries on TF.N The author went to a fair bit of trouble, even getting the LFL archive ppl to measure the SSD model for comparison 8o

Grimace
26 March 2002, 07:22 AM
Please don't get sidetracked on the length of the Super Star Destroyer. Every time that discussion is brought up, an arguement ensues.

So far, this has been a very good thread, with well though out posts (mostly). Stay on topic and NO MORE SSD COMMENTS please!

Chris Curtis
26 March 2002, 10:39 AM
Yes, please, no more XX km SSD "discussions"... Now, back to the topic.

I don't think I did a very good job in my previous post of actually explaining one of my point. That point is that there is often a difference between what any one person/group uses as canon/official/whatever for their own campaign, what a different person/group uses, and still again with what the "official" word (i.e. from Lucasfilm) is about what is canon, what's official, what's "Infinities", etc.

I think this is an important point to make because virtually every group is going to have a different criteria for what they use within their own campaign universe. For all intents and purposes, what they use is canon for them. It just may not be another group's version of "canon". However, when either of these two groups wants to discuss something (say, here on the HoloNet), then they should make sure they're both talking from the same frame of reference or there will almost certainly be confusion.

(Please note that in neither of my posts have I enumerated about what is/might be official, canon, etc. Listing such a thing really isn't pertinant to this discussion since we're essentially talking "around" that subject, not about it.)

Mathis Kharr
26 March 2002, 04:30 PM
hanx for theinfo i ill have to print this and show it to my know it all player

Reverend Strone
26 March 2002, 08:54 PM
I must agree that this has been a remarkably well-mannered thread considering the depth of feeling concerining the topic.

Regarding the irregularities and frequent contradictions that are encountered in some EU material, I think it just comes down to the vastness of the SW Universe. It must be very intimidating for new writers to thread a path through all this material and not occassionally run afoul of the pre-beaten track. They can't be expected to have read everything that's been previously published. That prerequisite would be a sure-bet killer of spontaneous writing.

There are discrepancies, and sometimes they seem huge. In the end, I just buy them, choosing to mentally dismiss or reinterpret the issue at hand to fit my own view of the SW Universe, and not let them bug me.

One of the biggest canon-foullers was the Underworld comic series, and yet in my mind it was one of the most enjoyable, most fun SW comics I've ever read- certainly the first series i liked enough at a glance to buy in years, because it had a spontenaety (I'm sure that's spelt wrong) and freshness. It didn't take it self too seriously. I could accept the discrepancies without it affecting my enjoyment of the story.

I do think it's important that writers do their best to honour the legacy of material that has preceeded them, but there comes a point at which they should be allowed some creative leeway to pursue ideas and story.

Read and enjoy, but lets not get too bothered. The little slips just aren't worth us getting upset about. Peace gentlemen (and ladies).

dgswensen
27 March 2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by grizzly
The thing I find the funniest I suppose, is that at the last game he threatened to dock me XP for mentioning something to do with the EU.

Wow, that's really ridiculous. Telling you not to mention it, that's one thing... but docking you XP? For <I>mentioning</I> something from the EU? Man, you ought to sound off in the <A HREF="http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=70223">Bad GMs thread</A>. :)

Ash DuQuennes
27 March 2002, 10:46 AM
Let me just say that I do believe that there is a hierarchy of canon, and that movies supercede novels, novels supercede PC games and comics, and all of the above supercede home brew. Home brew should be kept within the confines of the game it was designed for. Sharing on the boards here is great, and I have shamelessly used stats and ideas offered by other players and GMs here, but please don't try to claim its "official" (most don't, but every now and then...).

dgswensen: I believe (and I may be wrong) that GM's fiat overrules canon in their own game. And that's about it.

Chris, Dirk: from where I'm reading (about 15" from my screen), I don't see you two disagreeing so much as simply stressing different aspects of the same argument. I'll agree with Chris in saying that non-categorized EU material seems to be every munchkin's excuse to promote their uber-weapons. And I too disregard novel material which directly contradicts on-screen actions/events (the aforementioned Star Destroyer vaporising asteroids with its armamaents).

I readily admit to being a bit of a pedant where terminology is concerned (unfortunately, the condition is terminal; sorry reliant :p ), so some of the mistakes in the novels drive me apey. Like in Edge of Victory I, where the light transport Anaking steals from Remis Vehn supposedly has turbolasers; or in Edge of Victory II, where Han tells Jacen to man the Falcon's turbolasers. ARRGGGHHHH! The turbolasers in the light transport I might be able to forgive (as there is precedent for mounting seriously heavy weaponry on smaller vessels), but on the Falcon?! revstrone, your point is taken, and I agree, but a congenital fault of my psyche just...latches...onto those discrepancies and jangles around in my frontal lobes going "nyah nyah!"

Something that the people on this board do pretty well is to differentiate between sources when posting stats; like if someone asks for stats on an ISD, and someone will post it, citing that they are from d6/d20, and they might then post their own home brew modification to the ISD that they use on their games. Like I have retrofitted Imperial Capital Ships in the New Republic era with better anti-starfighter weaponry. Canon? Heck no. Sensible? Plausible? Possible? Who cares? It's my game.

I hate to bring it up, but I have to, and it'll illustrate a point pertinent to the thread: :)

In my SW Universe/Games (and in reflection, I've actually been using something simialr to The Admiral's "Star" scale for some time now), I originally accepted WEG's 8 km SSD w/o question, but it wasn't until I read Curtis Saxton's Technical Commentaries (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/) that I noticed the "discrepancy."

I kept the 8 km "SSD" and also the 16 km one; it's a good "bridge" vessel to span the gigantic "gap" between 1600 m ISD's and the 16 km SSD. I toned down the 8 km version somewhat, keeping the original WEG SSD stats for the 16 km version.

In employment, the 8 km version is a "meta-sector fleet command ship," for groups of up to 10 sectors (more-or-less, depending upon stellar/population density), and is somewhat common, and becoming more so as more are built and deployed (at least up until Endor). The 16 km version is a pure Task Force Command monster, for people like Vader and Grand Admirals, and is pretty rare (maybe a dozen or so total in the Imperial inventory).

I explained the difference by saying the 8 km version was the original concept design for the SSD, but advancement in ship construction techniques (direct spin-offs of the Death Star Project) enabled the size to be increased greatly in rapid order. So the 16 km version was what they settled on for the SSD, but the Imperial Planning Board recognized the utility of the 8 km version, and kept that class as well.

But that's just my game. YMMV. So if someone wanted d6/d20 stats for an SSD, I'd personally give them the 8 km version from the various game book(s) (ISB, SotG). And I might put up an addendum that there's direct on-screen evidence from the movies that an SSD is quite a bit larger than the 8 km suggested in the game material, and give them my alternate "take" on it as well, making sure that I differentiated clearly in my post between the two.

dgswensen
27 March 2002, 11:18 AM
dgswensen: I believe (and I may be wrong) that GM's fiat overrules canon in their own game. And that's about it.

Of course, I agree. I don't see how it could be any other way!

Gulmyros
27 March 2002, 02:15 PM
My biggest gripe about the use of 'canon' on the boards grows from its use as a measuring tool. Follow me on this for a second, and maybe I can explain what I mean.

Someone asks a question, or presents a problem. Lots of people post answers. Somewhere in the multitude of answers there's a difference between a couple of sources where something is cited, referenced, mentioned, or stat-blocked. That's usually not so big a deal. We figure out what works, and go with it.

Now enter the card carrying Canon Member. This is the person who announces that your information is 'better' or 'worse' than something else because of its position in the Canon Hierarchy. From George to Lucasfilm, to the movies, the novels, the comics, the video games, card games, board games, roleplaying games, and all the way down to the SW themed birthday card they got when they were 10 years old... starting up at Canon, then flowing down to Official and on to Infinities and so on...

Ultimately, I don't mind conflicting versions of what happens when you shove a lightsaber into a blast door. Really, I don't. :) The movies shows one thing, books say another, RPG rulebooks say another.

What I do mind is someone insisting that what QG does in TPM is the ONLY way it could happen. The reason it bugs me is that often the logic is expanded from 'my information is better than yours' to 'I am better than you, because you quoted the wrong stuff.'

In my experience the Canon debate gets heated and disruptive not because people disagree with what is a good or bad stat or plot element, but because people get personal and use Canon and all its incarnations as a weapon against other posters. THAT's when it bugs me.

Whether or not George said OK to something, or one of his zillion cronies did it, I don't much care. After all, no matter what source you quote - it's ALL fiction. :)

As for me, I still belive that "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" was one big dream sequence done up in Mr. Skywalker's head while sleeping on a transport dreaming of getting some action with the Princess... at least until that whole 'sister' thing came up and ruined it. :D

But hey, if you like the book, great. Enjoy it. Read it again. Keep it by your bedside. Base your games on its contents. Let's just not yell at each other for disagreeing, eh?

grizzly
28 March 2002, 02:51 AM
Ash DuQuennes that has to be the most logical answer (2 SSD variants) to something that has bugged me mightily, and I just wonder why noone else has voiced what is, esentially, the simplest logical solution to a problem that could argued strongly by those on their respective sides of the "Canon" fence

Tramp
28 March 2002, 11:36 AM
I'm also glad that this thread has provided an area to discuss this topic objectively. It often gets seriously under my skin when EU Bashers start spouting off about how only the movies count, how the EU totally contradicts the movies, or how much they hate the EU. It gets to the point that I want to scream. I've read almost all of the books and Dark Horse comic and have yet to find any serious discrepincies with the movies. Even the Boba Fett/Jastor Mereel debate which can easily be explained by the fact that first, no one really knows his origins (though this will be revealed in AotC and, second, after spending time in the Sarlac's stomach, Boba Fett had absorbed the personalities of several of the Sarlacs other victims, including, possibly, this Jastor Mereel. Now on a side note, in one articl with JD Wiker, he mentioned that the 8km SSD was a chronic typo and should be 16km.

Jedi Master Antilles
28 March 2002, 02:06 PM
Actually the EU doesn't bother me one bit..i rather like some of the characters from marvel and darkhorse comics as well as the novels.what bothers me is people who constantly preach about the expaded universe being canon and trying to enforce their point of view on those who don't care to consider it canon..it is their opinion and their entitled to it,so quit trying to preach to them about it..and what really gets me going is people who RP and wanna RP in the "Canon " universe...because they want to keep with the integrity of things going on in "lucas's universe",and then right out the gate at the beginning of the adventure they start doing things that automatically start changing things from canon to an infinites campaign.or have characters that in the canon universe would be difficult to explain,but the peson wants you to accept it and move on..and the biggest gripe i have is when players are already playing in an infinites type campagn and a new player joins in and immediately whines,gripes,b**ches and complains non stop about "wanting to play in the canon universe"..to those people i say..too bad ,get over it.we dont want to hear it.you dont like it,don't play the game.it's really simple everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everyone can agree to disagree..it's america..but just for a bit of advice for all those who want to play strictly canon...if an adventure is infinites ,don't preach to everyone about the canon universe or nag to play an adventure in the canon universe..not everyone wants to play in Luke's shadow,they would rather be the heroes themselves ,so please just shut up and enjoy the game or don't play .and concerning stats,info ,charcters ..etc...a person is free to use whatever they want..and doesn't want to hear 3 seconds later from the offical "George Lucas Canon universe lifetime membership card carryer"..NO!!!....THATS NOT CANON !!. it's things like that ,that make me wanna scream "take yer head outta Lucas's a** and get over it". just my two cents..if this offended anyone ..apologies.wasn't ment to.and lastly the last thing i can say concerning RP'ng in Star Wars..it's the GM's universe...he can do what he wants.the GM makes the rules.

Ash DuQuennes
28 March 2002, 03:17 PM
Thanks, grizzly. I also created a 3200 m Star Destroyer that is functionally a "Battleship" (reserving the classification of "Deadnaught" for the 8 km SSD and "Super Dreadnaught" for the 16 km SSD, with a nod to David Weber and his "Honor" series).

The Battleship preceded the 8 km SSD, and was built only in limited numbers (about 2 dozen or so). They're bought and paid for, and the Empire don't really know what to do with them as they were obsolete before they were finished being built. In operation, they tend to be task-assigned to Rim Sectors where a slightly bigger ship could be used to thicken up the firepower of a Sector Task Force.

None are technically "canon," but can be reasonably rationalized; as I mentioned earlier, I really only tend to play the "canon" card to forestall munchkinism. Sort of a "Bulls**t!" card.

That's all I really ask out of homebrew, or stats concocted from inference or partial information: that it be consistent to some degree or another with what's already out there in game supplements, novels, and even the PC games to some extent. Mega-ships (like the Eclipse-class and the Death Stars) are fine and dandy, as long as they aren't coming out of the woodwork every adventure. As in, "(yawn) oh look, another Death Star. I'll just hop in my X-Wing and go blow it up. I still have room on my fuselage for one more Death Star kill marker." :rolleyes:

I've seen games like that, I kid you not!

Some guy posted a one-off custom ship based upon a Victory-class huill, and it had enough firepower to stomp an ISD II. Since it was homebrew, I couldn't play the "canon" card, but I did suggest some mods. to tone it down. It could conceivably do some serious damage to an ISD II, but unless the dice-gods are harsh, it'll still be disparate molecules by the time the battle's over. It's still not "canon," but it is consistent with published materials. Think of it as a "min/max" Victory-class III.

Mathis Kharr
28 March 2002, 03:45 PM
Wow Amen to Jedi Master Antillies for shooting up on this subject. I am sick of hearing it to especially when i have a good as hell story and I hear " Man we need to play in cannon" " Thats not canno" "lucas would not allow that" " Things don't happen that way" Or my Favorite
" You CANNOT DO THAT BECAUSE ITS NOT CANNON, " Then theres "I am gonna call JD wilker and ask ." or " Wiozards of the coast Ie JD doesn't say that" Or any of the other plethera of nonsense i hear realting to these fanatics and ythis game and the stories.

darth maim
28 March 2002, 05:03 PM
I had someone say they were going to write Gamer and ask if what I was ruling was ok because it wasn't cannon. I told them that when George Lucas personally came to my house and told me to change my game I'd tell him to {expletive censored} off as well... :)

Basically it boils down to this... as GM it's your universe.

What you say is canon becomes just that.

Jedi Master Antilles
28 March 2002, 06:50 PM
Exactly Darth Main..you said it perfectly...it's not George Lucas running the adventure its the GM..so if he wants to throw the canon universe out the window and do things his way,it's his perogitive and shouldn't have to hear anyones complaints about "It's not Canon. that can't happen."the only thing i hate about the canon universe is all the fanatics who swear upon it like it's the word of god and wont accept anything else.(no blasphemy inteneded).and if Lucas came to my house and told me my adventure wasn't canon ,my reply would be maybe but since i shelled out the cash for all these books i'm using them any way i please.

madpoet
28 March 2002, 07:03 PM
In my game, my players understand that we're using house rules . Its my house, I make the rules. As has been previously pointed out by my esteemed compatriots, the GM has the final word on what does or doesn't happen in the GM's universe. I've played in a game where the Rebellion failed because one of the characters assassinated Luke, Leia, and Mon Mothma. Did I complain? NO! I just sat back and enjoyed playing in a setting where I didn't know what was going to happen next. Some people need to open their minds a little and let some imagination in.

Jedi Master Antilles
28 March 2002, 07:15 PM
yes another good point...i love playing in settings where i know the characters from the movies but the events have been changed so now everyone has no idea what is going to happen..that just makes the game even more fun to participate in. i'd much rather play in that type of setting over one where everyone including their great aunt tilly from hobokin knows exactly whats going to happen,in what order and at what time and place.

DirkGreystoke
28 March 2002, 09:00 PM
I agree with Antilles, and not just because he's a Jedi Master. I played in five campaigns where your characters took the place of Luke and Han. We made our own Jedi and eventually took out Vader and the Emporer. It was very interesting to see how our players handled the battles on Hoth and Endor. My only problem with some EU is that i feel it takes away from the game if you use it, and any good GM knows this fine line. The number one thing is for everyone to have fun. My goal is not for my adventure s to be cannon necessarily, but for them to have a "cannon-like feel." I try my best to have a game that is distinctly our own, but somehow might fit into Lucas' vision. This is hard, but all good star wars GMs have learned how to do this.

I have a big problem with people who kill the game for any reason, be it cannon or otherwise. I mean, it's really strange...I don't recall this problem when the first edition WEG game came out. I know there was not much EU back then, but it still seems strange to me.

I just get frusterated when someone posts something here on the boards for their game, and they make it clear they are just going by the movies for their adventures.......and then someone chimes in with an EU source to legitimize their claim. As far as I can see that isn't helping them very much. I also marvel at those who hold on to the falicy that Lucas' is involved in the EU creation process, because he is not and never was.

I think that all the EU stuff that messes with the Force is crap, like contorsis weave, ysalimiri, and Sith swords.....so I don't use them. I am sure there is a GM somewhere who has found a way to use this stuff....I just haven't yet. The number one rule for me is that everyone has fun. It is a game after all.

darth maim
29 March 2002, 09:53 AM
As to throwing the movie stuff out of whack...

A friend of mine and I play twin gunslingers from Corellia (based on Tatooine). They are both lvl 1 FA, and then they differ the other PC has 4 levels in soldier and one in scoundrel... I have the opposite. we have opposite personalities and we work as pirates and occassionally bounty hunters. Basically it went out the window when I was drinking at Mos Eisley... I see an old man with a lightsaber and want the bounty on that object. As they exit the bar my brother approaches the pair with some con... as they watch him for a moment I clock the old man in the back of the head with my blaster handle. My brother pulls his blasters on the dumb farmboy and convinces him to stay put. As I am robbing the old man he makes an attempt to chat me up... I shoot him in the neck and the kid tries to make a move. He's shot in the face and stomach with a coup de grace by my brother and the galaxy's fate lies dead in the sand.

dgswensen
29 March 2002, 10:16 AM
No offense, but I guess your GM must not like Luke or Obi-Wan very much to play them that badly. I mean, non-canon is one thing, but it seems to me Obi-Wan didn't become one of the only surviving Jedi to escape the Emperor AND Darth Vader by being stupid enough to let a couple gangsters get the drop on him with the oldest trick in the book.

I don't have anything against it, of course, but if it had been me GMing, I would have made you earn it a bit more. :)

darth maim
29 March 2002, 10:26 AM
It wasn't quite as easy at I initially made it sound just didn't want to make a HUGE post. Also Luke wasn't really in a position to do anything... remember this is frsh off the farm unarmed Luke here.

dgswensen
29 March 2002, 10:30 AM
That's why I didn't mention Luke. :)

madpoet
29 March 2002, 05:43 PM
And to think, if only Luke had gone to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters, he'd still be alive today....

Ash DuQuennes
29 March 2002, 06:25 PM
Are we hijacking into Infinities, here?

Because that aint canon.:p

:d&r:

Soontide
29 March 2002, 10:17 PM
This was really fun and I hope that my other threads get this much quality responses.

oh, and you might want to check out this link
[URL=http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/superstardestroyer/index.html]

it states that the SSD is just a little over 12 km in height, if thats the case, then its much longer than 16km. or do they mean length. HEHe

Bookmaker221
30 March 2002, 09:27 PM
I like the Howitzer. BOOM!