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Armadious
25 March 2002, 08:42 AM
I thought I would offer a question.

Lets say that you are in charge of a Brak sector about 2 years after Endor. As such you have the ability to get a hold of a wide variety of vessels since lets say you have managed to get ahold of a sector fleet, a shipyards, and a fighter construction facility, and anything listed in the sourcebook for that sector (Flashpoint! Brak Sector). You have access to the resources of the mining Corperations as well.

Lets also say you are Warlordish, in that you like big impressive ships.

Someone offers you a SSD (all this is going by offical stats BTW), in return they want "any combination of vessels that equil the price of this vessel new." You can use the normal new price of the vessels you are trading as well.

Here is my question: What do you trade?


To give you an idea, Valued by WOTC guide a SSD is 19056 TIE/lns, 327 Corellian Corvettes 8 SD2s etc.

I will let you know what my choice is later today, along with a question about it.

Master_thorin
25 March 2002, 09:56 AM
I would trade the Tie Fighters. My reason being that in the Star Wars Universe a Tie In is as prevalent as sheets of paper on this world:D

Thinking

DIE for I am Supreme Admiral Thorin with my Unstoppable Thunder Hammer SSD

lordbynight
25 March 2002, 11:11 AM
I would trade the 8 Corellian Corvettes first of all 327 tiefighters can take 8 corvettes and your gonna need star fighters you can easly go and take over sytems with the ties going in and out of atmosphere there is nothing like stationing a stardestroyer above a planet and letting loose 100 tie fighters down. Gotta keep everything the Imperials had manufactured.

even better trade everything for a deathstar!!!! :D

reliant
25 March 2002, 11:33 AM
I say dump the 'vettes. You're gonna need the ties to fill up the SSD's fighter compliment, and to run cover against other fighters. We wouldn't want a repeat a of the battle of endor now would we? Then you could keep your other big ships (thus providing for your big ship addiction).

Besides, it would be VERY impressive to arrive in system with a SSD some ISD's and LOADS of tie interceptors buzzing around. No one would bother you... Besides, corellian corvettes aren't all that impressive...

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
25 March 2002, 12:03 PM
tell the guy to bring over the SSD so ya can forge a deal ...

then, once the guy brings the SSD, ya ambush the guy with your massive fleet of 327 Corellian Corvettes, 19k of ties and 8 SD's ... force the guy to surrender the SSD and their ya have it... ya keep your entire fleet and now gain an impressively unscathed SSD as your new flagship :D


Overall, 327 Corvetes could trounce an SSD ... if the corvettes surround the SSD, the SSD would be outgunned on it's top side and unable to return fire to the corvettes on it's bottum & back sides side... think about it... Strength In Greater Numbers ... And thats not even counting the ties & 8 SD's you already have which could take up key strategic areas around the SSD ... The SSD can't manuever worth a darn in emergencies less when it's totally surrounded by a fleet of ships.

Would the Empire truly trade his entire fleet for a single SSD? nah ... he'd keep his fleet and ruthlessly take that SSD...

If you had to trade? No... Keep you large fleet :)

Alternatively, forge a deal with the guy so ya work in tandem, fruits of both parties... perhaps let him use a few corves & sd's while ya run the SSD and majority of fleet (or still backstab the poor guy)

btw, That many corves, SD's, and ties can keep a sector under controll fairly well at all places at once... yet a single SSD wouldn't be able to... and it'd take time for the ship yards to amass that large a fleet again ...

Chris Curtis
25 March 2002, 01:06 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Terras here: don't trade at all.

If you have the resources to be able to produce (much less trade away) the kind of forces you're talking about, then you should also have the capability to manufacture your own command ship if you need it. Besides, a command ship like an SSD is really rather limited in its usefulness. For the most part, it would only come into its own during large fleet engagements.


On another note, I have to say that the prices for most of the capital combat ships in SotG (and several of the WEG supplements, for that matter) are insanely cheap. Realistic prices would have to be orders of magnitude higher than they are listed...

Ash DuQuennes
25 March 2002, 02:41 PM
Chris Curtis: in reference to your comment about ship's prices in SotG, I'd like to hear your reasoning behind your beliefs. Not that I'm disagreeing, but I'm interested in hearing the logic behind it.

If you don't mind, that is.

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
25 March 2002, 04:30 PM
I've a better offer for you Ash :)

I'd not even bother with price value... To me, the value in usefulness of having 327 corvettes and 19k of ties and 8 SDs far outvalue a single SSD ...

Group 5-10 corves in a bunch and ya got almost 31-60 corvette attack and patrol groups to cover the entire sector button tight as in Blockade level tight. Theres no way blockade runners or anyone would be able to get through in / out or very far if trying ... (if ya wanna get nasty, re-outfit 1 corve in each group with a capital class tractor beam on a turret well and the other turrets be ion canons , so ya can trap and disable the prey, then tow them home) ... Corves are speedy for their size of ship...

Build a few space ports to house most of the ties, and keep the excess ones on planet in reserve...

Distribute the 8 SD's one or 2 per planet defense (not familiar with the sector, just laying it out on average)


Now, in value terms, I gotta ask you Ash... Can a single SSD really equal in that sort of value? In being able to keep a sector in your total power and locked in tight from everyone else?

And as Chris Curtis said, you should have more than enough resources to build an SSD of your own if ya already got a fleet of ships this large...

It's not wise to think everything in moneytary values :)

Armadious
25 March 2002, 05:55 PM
None of you went out and looked in the book did you? :D

While I agree that trading for for any of the above mentioned ships is not worth it, (I did say you liked biger ships). It is not realy worth it IMO either.

This was mainly to have you look in the book at the Lonar class Refinery station on pg of Flashpoint! Brak Sector, and tell me that you would trade 1 of these 2,000 meter mobile stations. Then I was going to ask, "How is one of those stations worth more then a SSD?"

BTW the station refines metal, has hyperdrive x 10, space of 1 and costs 1.5 billion credits new.

Chris Curtis
25 March 2002, 06:37 PM
Sorry, Armadious, I don't own Flashpoint! Brak Sector (and even if I did I wasn't at home when I posted). Also having never read or looked through that supplement I'd have no idea of what would be available.


Re: Starship Prices:

Most things in SW are priced somewhere in the rough range of the USD value of their earthly equivalents. Not exactly, always, but usually within an order of magnitude or so. For example, a blaster is roughly equivalent to a modern pistol and both are priced in the same range. Likewise speeders and cars are similar. Light freighters and cargo trucks (i.e. 18-wheelers). Etc., etc. So for most things it's relatively fair to be able to draw rough analogies between SW items and their rough equivalent on earth.

So, let's take the ubiquitous Imperial Star Destroyer. Depending on who you ask, this could be equivalent to a modern day navy destroyer, cruiser, carrier, etc. For argument's sake, we'll go with the biggest earth example of something like the Nimitz carriers of the US.

The Nimitz is about 1100 ft (330 m) long compared to the ISDs length of 5250 ft (1600 m). Rough estimates for the price of one of these ships puts it at about $4.5 billion each (USD) (source (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html)). Starships of the Galaxy says that an ISD is worth about 146 million credits. That's more than 30 times cheaper than an earth carrier and yet it's over 5 times as long (and more than 5 times as massive). Personally, I would put the cost of an ISD in the hundreds of billions of credits...

Ash DuQuennes
25 March 2002, 08:55 PM
Chris: same conclusion, differnt logic. But my conclusion leads to differences of degree, not kind. The galactic macroeconomy of SW can, IMO, absorb costs better than the closed microeconomy of the U.S. Defense Industry. If hundreds of Nimitz-sized ships we being built, such that the oceans could be blanketed with carrier groups, I imagine the price on them would fall steadily.

The construction technologies that build Star Destroyers are similar in kind to the same technologies that build orbital habitats, mega-liners and the huge container cargo vessels. The list costs of Star Destroyers are linearlly/logically extrapolated from lesser vessel classes, if that price is "as is." That means that that price doesn't include crew costs, TIE squadrons, AT-ATs, AT-STs, etc. It also doesn'tconsider that that price may reflect what the Empire paid for a class of vessel numbering in the tens of thousands as well; remember, the actual listed price first says "Not for sale..." That "Not for sale..." qualifier is probably a hefty multiplier for a private citizen approaching Kuat asking for a Star Destroyer or similar vessel to be constructed. Even assuming Kuat gives him the time of day....

And it doesn't even cover the necessary political costs (permits, licenses, waivers, letters of exception, etc.)

There may also be different imperatives at work, as well. Someone in the SW Universe who could afford the 145,670,000 Cr (if that price is to be believed; assume for the sake of this example it can be) probably doesn't need to buy a Star Destroyer; they can purchase the political influence to have a Star destroyer (or equivalent) placed "at their discretion." Kind of a lend-lease sort of thing. Because someone with 145 MCr to spare is probably waayyy high up in the Sector/Corporate food-chain. Mucky-muck. Big Kahuna. Very Important Person.

For controlling a sector, I'd agree with the philosophy of more smaller ships for strategic/tactical flexibility. Maybe trade in some Corvettes for some medium-sized cruisers, around the Vindicator-class sized, and some decent frigates, and keep a solid core of 100 or so Corvettes to form fast patrol pickets. Keeping my ISD's for show-the-flag cruises and reserve battle-groups.

The SSD is an awesome, awe-inspiring ship. No doubt about it. But it is way over-the-top for a mere sector. When you decide to go Empire and start gobbling up adjoining sectors, then, maybe, a SSD would be warranted, to form the core of an uber-group, a Battle Task Force.

Mathis Kharr
26 March 2002, 04:10 PM
Keep your own crap and use the resources to build your own vesseles all a SSD is is a really big target

Jedi Master Antilles
26 March 2002, 08:44 PM
Take the SSD,but make a deal that keeps agood majority of yer ISD's ,TIES and Corvettes..a SSD may be a big target but it's got a good punch as well,and the intimidation factor alone is worth it.

Ash DuQuennes
27 March 2002, 09:13 AM
Yeah, they're big targets, allright. Big capital "T" tough targets. With lots and lots of fighters to throw at any attacker, and enough firepower to blow just about anything less than another SSD Six Ways to the Next Sector. The Executor bit it in RotJ because the plot said so, IMO.

Other than "sneak job" sabotage, I submit that if anyone has taken down an SSD with anything less than a small fleet of Capital ships and beaucoup fighter support, they got off light because of a crappy GMing.

Our SW games have always been "no punches held, no holds barred" and our various GMs will kill a character in a heartbeat (and we as players approve!) for doing something as stupid as attacking an SSD (or even an ISD, or VSD) with anything less than at least equivalent big-ship firepower. TIEs are easy; they're generally one-hit wonders, and their only real danger is their numbers (generally speaking; elite squadrons like the 181st are an altogether different proposition). Smaller capital ships are tougher, but doable with fighters alone.

Bigger ships? Fugeddaboutit. Bring bigger ships with or die a gloriously uninspired death.

Letting the "good guys" win just because they're the "good guys" is a cop out, IMO. !@#$%& Ewoks!

Whether or not an SSD is suitable (appropriate?) as a single-sector command ship is debateable; it's effectiveness as a warship, IMO, is not.

Good? Bad? What's with all of these judgemental labels, anyway? I like "Us" against "Them." Keeps things simple, that way.