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Mathis Kharr
30 March 2002, 12:37 AM
Now I know i am gonna get a lot of confusion on this but here goes.

What exactly warrants a darkside point. There is a blury line indicating that that is totaly based on oppinion. I mean considering there realy is no force how do you run it in a game where traits such as anger and hatred spill out all the time by the mundane populous. I know Jedi are suposed to be abobe these base emotions but without totaly going Vulcan or android like what defines the line.

In game terms I am asking this
in the D20 version you read certain characters stats like Vader and such and they have somewheres around 16 just above what they needed to become a darkside character. Now considering Vader was darkside from episode 3, why would he be listed to have only 16 dsp when in most of the later movies he is using darkside powers on a regular basis.

then theres exar kun who has 18
Darth Bane with 24
The emperor has the most at 32

I would realy like to know what justifies these
do the acts of evil nessesary to go from vaders 16 to banes 24 to Palpatines 32 have to be greater in scope?
if so where does that leave the force powers in the games that grant you 1-2 dsp per use. clearly a darksider in his carreer would have way more dsp then even palaptine could imagin

Lets say within the span of a battle you use 4 darkside powers as a darksider thats 4 dsp past what you had to be a darksider if you had 16 allready that would make 20 then battleing some more jedi you maybe hit a few innocents that get in the way, few more dsp and rack up according to the rules 6 more dsp that would be 26. all this can come from one battle yet Palpatine had only (it's a lot i know in terms) 32 dsp in his entire carreer and vader had only 16 from episode 3 to jedi.

I hope I am making sense but i read a post a while back on Force lightning and a post preposed that you only get one DSP for its initial use and never again. that could conceivably go for the other powers Dark powers to, explaining vaders 16 darkside points.

to me that makes sense considering what i just stated earlier. In my mind the acts nessesary to get to Palpatines 32 would have to be galactic spaning, caniving, killing many innocents type of evil. just using force lightning a few times wouldn't do it. I could be wrong but it makes sense to me this way and I am not sure if this can be agreed on either way.
Please proviode feedback on this confusion..

:?

Ghost In The Holocron
30 March 2002, 01:03 AM
Don't forget Atonement -- ie: using a Force Point to "erase" a DSP (in the manuals, The Force section) -- which I've always taken to mean a character's effort through meditation, etc. to restrain the anger/hatred/darkness inside of him.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was JD Wiker who once explained that the Dark Side ebbs and flows in a character, in the same way the Force ebbs and flows. The process of being consumed by the Dark Side isn't a downward spiral that you can't pull out of. Which, I suppose, implies that Vader was also struggling against his own demons despite using the Dark Side regularly. Perhaps, Exar Kun and the Emperor proceeded down the dark paths in much the same manner as well. Which helps explain their number of DSPs, stats-wise in their write-ups.

wolverine
30 March 2002, 01:56 AM
THat would indicate, they WANTED the attonement. Everything i have read about attoning, states that it only happens if DEEP IN YOUR HEART you are wanting it, which is something i think exar kun and palpaltine were incapable of.

madpoet
30 March 2002, 03:26 AM
The only problem with the atonement theory is that only dhacters with the tainted template can atone. The only way a character with the dark template can rid themselves of DSP is through an act of redemption.

I personally have always found the DSP of some of the major characters to be a little low. I haven't come up with answer yet, but I'd like to see what some of you think too.

Brithael
30 March 2002, 03:37 AM
not sure if someone's already said this
dark side points are warranted when an evil act is commited or of course the use of a dark side force skill
as far as i can see, the only thing they do against you is if you wanted to become a light jedi, and the roleplaying aspects

dragonseye
30 March 2002, 05:46 AM
You know that's a very good question that you raised, and to be honest, I'm not certain if there is a deffinite answer to it. At least with d20, it's for the most part clear cut. The only relative one is the committing an act of Evil, but even with that, most people can judge when an act is evil (obviously tossing a thermal dettonator into a resturaunt filled with innocents would be evil.) When it comes to a case of a Jedi attacking out of Anger or Fear, I think it should normally not warrant aDSP at first (but at least a warning) and then if the character makes a habit out of it, then give him a DSP.

At the least from my experience playing a Dark Side character, I think the DSP count for truly evil characters like Darth Bane and Palpatine do not need to be exact. A light sider will know they're evil, the dark sider himself should know he's evil, and even if the dark sider returns to the light side, the number of DSP's would be based off of his will score (for d20 anyhow, I don't remember how d6 handles if.) I think more than anything else, the d20 creators were trying to put the different NPC's into perspective with each other: Plapatine committed far more evil acts than Darth Vader, and Exar Kun only has 18 DSP's because he ended his life short before the Jedi could kill him.

I hope this helps you.

Sithspawn
30 March 2002, 06:50 AM
I the real world (whatever that is) there is no force. So this is what makes the Star Wars Universe interesting. Characters ARE effected by the force. There is a line between good & evil, though as most would agree, a blurred line it is. Each individual would surely have their own opinions on right & wrong, and in esence morality.

So how does this effect the game?
Non-Force Sensitive charcaters are pretty much NULL to the force. They only get DSPs commiting a truely evil act when spending a Force Point.
Force Sensitives must be a little more restrained, they can be more readily corrupted without spending a FP, though they get warnings.
Force Users are in the thick of it. No warning, and often no explaination as to why they got that DSP. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

But once you have fallen to the Dark Side you ARE Evil. The Dark Side no longer needs to tempt you, you drag you down. Therefore the DSPs slow down. Sure, the characters are using Telekenetic Kill and terrorising the galaxy, but no DSPs IMHO. Dark Siders in my campaign are treated as Non-FS again in that they only get DSPs for truely evil acts when spending a Force Point. Otherwise the Emperors DSP total would probably need Einstein to work out.

From Hell,
Sithspawn

Ash DuQuennes
30 March 2002, 07:35 AM
Good answer, Sithspawn.

Mathis Kharr
30 March 2002, 09:29 AM
You know that still doesn't answer it even in weg some of them had just tje minimum nessesary to be darkside. And I know Vader wasn't trying toi attone when he force choked a few people in ESB

Alun
30 March 2002, 11:05 AM
This is what Dark Side Points are for.

To indicate when a PC is leaning towards the Dark Side.
Yes NPCs have them to, but for get about that, if you took a look at Darth Vader & Palpatines as you said, they would average 1 Dark Side Point every 2 years. Personally my belief is that Vader & Palpatine, used dark side powers on a regular basis. And that neither of them spend much time atoning.
So do not measure your characters after the NPCs DSPs.

Or do this, after the character has become fully embraced by the dark side (DSP=wis) DSPs only comes for extreme acts of evil (as in the original WEG version).

Also think about a better system for the attribute loss for advancing in the dark side levels or the emporer would be as strong as an infant ewok, not to mention darth maul would have a hard time doing his cool stunts.

Mathis Kharr
30 March 2002, 11:16 AM
Thats pretty much how i intend to use it. After they fall to the darkside i am using the increasing evil rule i came up with . because if not thier dsp would skyrocket allmost with every battle.

But there is one thing can you spend a darkside point?

or is the darkside called on only when you spend a force point as a darkside character?

are darkside pts just decorations indicating evil coruption?

because if not and and you can spend darkside pts like candy then being a darksider would be grand considering you get a darkside pt with every darkside power. If thats true then i am glad i raised the question because without the increasing evil rule i am applying darksiders could get mega dsp to spend.

Alun
30 March 2002, 11:38 AM
Yes, DSPs are just decorations or as i used to call it Evil-ometer

They serve no purpose (when i started playing WEG SWRPG i though geewiz dark side points are evil force points and look at how easy they can get them, HEY they get them for using them, very unfair) But that was in my more naive days, now i find them rather useless from a NPC standpoint and will probably figure out one day to make them useful.

Hey but as GM they can very useful. They can lower a PCs stats. They can let the PC know that they are stepping on thin ice. But if the PC goes and become Dark Side, they become useless again, he can acumulate them with out effect good or bad (if the GM allows dark characters).



Maybe this board should start a new ranking DSP

It gives you chest decorations like all these damn soldiers around here, what about us poor week force users, we need "medals" to, we need recogniztion.

Alun

(Movement for Force Users Equal Rights - "We are People too!")

Sithspawn
31 March 2002, 01:39 AM
DSPs do add +1D per DSP to a Force users Control, Sense & Alter.
I tend to rule that if a Jedi takes advantage of this bonus then they lose their atonement for the adventure and must start again. It's the lure of the Dark Side. I also rule that Dark Siders lose this bonus. Unless you want play Darth Vader & the Emperor with truly god-like power levels!!! 8o

wolverine
31 March 2002, 03:34 AM
If you are already partr of the darkl side though, you don't get that bonus.....

Ghost In The Holocron
31 March 2002, 06:54 AM
Sithspawn, wolverine: Thanks for the DSP info from the d6 camp! -- it's interesting to know and gives us newbie d20 joes added perspective (since DSPs aren't used to "power-up" in d20).

As far as the discussion is going: I suppose the actual numbers for Vader, Palpatine, etc do tend to be iffy when you place them against the actual point-by-point rules -- given also the good points on atonement above (from which I've learned, thanks!) But I think also that the whole issue is somewhat moot. One supposes the GM (whoever he was) was setting up Vader with just the right DSPs for redemption, or something like that. And, aside from curbing munchkin lust for power, DSPs are really best used as a roleplaying aid -- for players mostly not NPCs.

The Admiral
31 March 2002, 09:43 AM
Worth remembering that it gets harder and harder to get DSPs (Certainly in D6, I gather it's similar in D20)

So if Jonni the Jolly Jedi decides to use TK to pelt Jenni the Judicious Jawa in the back of the head with a brick, he get's a DSP. But if Bob Palpatine did it, it doesn't amount to diddly squit. The DSPs measure how evil an action the character is capable of, rather than the quanitity of evil doing. So, if Jonni the Jolly Jedi sequentially pelted the entire 32 members of the Jawanese Jumping Junta with bricks, he'd still be only on one or two DSPs. You'd have to do a staggering amount of Jawa pelting to get your 32 DSPs. (That is assuming that pelting Jawas with bricks is actually evil.)

Ghost In The Holocron
31 March 2002, 11:22 AM
from The Admiral

Worth remembering that it gets harder and harder to get DSPs (Certainly in D6, I gather it's similar in D20)

Actually, not as it's written (if I remember -- I don't have manual ready). But I think the "diminishing returns" effect, ie: the more evil a character, the more it takes to really garner a DSP, is a very very good idea. I will in fact be using it to some extent in my own games.


The DSPs measure how evil an action the character is capable of, rather than the quantity of evil doing.

Well said, Admiral. I think that says it all.

PS: Incidentally, entertaining excellent employment of enlightening examples! :D

darth maim
31 March 2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Mathis Kharr
Now considering Vader was darkside from episode 3, why would he be listed to have only 16 dsp when in most of the later movies he is using darkside powers on a regular basis.


While he does use force grip on a pretty regular basis (it's more implied that the use of this is constant than anything) he really doesn't do anything else too darksidey... the whirlwind is a grey area as it doesn't always warrant a DSP but keep in mind that Vader usually just pops his LS nad talks smack to his opponent until they come after him. If anything the Jedi he's fighting should get a DSP for acting out of fear or anger.