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sys64738
25 April 2002, 07:37 AM
Hello. My group is just starting a d6 campaign, and I had some
questions about multiple actions and how the work.

Situation 1: character against 2 foes, firefight w/blasters
Character has 3d Dex and Blaster at +2, so 5d total.
Also has 5d total Dodge.

Foes have the same stats.

Foes get initiative, and declare that they will both Dodge
and Shoot at the character. 2 actions, both will be at
4d.

Character declares he will Dodge -both- of them and Shoot at one of
them. Again, 2 actions? Or 3 (2 dodges and a shot)?

Situation 2: Lightsaber Combat
Jedi has 3d Dex, Lightsaber at +1, so 4d total. Sense and Control at
3d each as well. Also has the Lightsaber Combat force power.

Foes are the same two from the first situation.

If the Jedi is assumed to have already activated his Lightsaber Combat
power, and is therefore carrying a -2d (pg 153, 2nd ed) to any _other_
action (i.e. Dodges, Perception rolls, etc) is he therefore going to have
only 1d for initiative?

Let's assume he has not activated it. Declarations are that Jedi will
activate Lightsaber Combat. Foes declare they will both Shoot at
Jedi. Jedi adds that he will attempt to Parry the blaster fire in response.

We shall assume that the Jedi gets initiative, otherwise he more than
likely gets shot and dies; at best he could react with a Dodge. Correct?

He is trying to use 2 Force Skills (Sense and Control), as well as
Parry twice, in one round. Does he have any chance of success?
Would he be at -2d to each roll (-1 from using two force skills and
another -1 from Parrying) or -3d (both Parries count seperately)? Either
would make it impossible to make his Force skill checks.

Let's assume he had the Lightsaber Combat up already. He declares
he will parry both Foes, reflect one back at the left Foe, and strike
at the Foe on the right. The Foes declare they will both Shoot. The
Foe whose bolt will possibly be deflected back also declares a Dodge.
The Foe who will be struck at must use his Brawling to avoid the
melee strike.

All right. Jedi gets initiative. What is his current penalty on all dice rolls?
Is it -6d (two parries, a reflect, and a strike, plus having Lightsaber
Combat active?) Is he at full value for all, since they all use the
Lightsaber Combat force power?

If anyone can clear this up, I would appreciate it.

Emperor Xanderich II
25 April 2002, 10:45 AM
okay, lets see:

1) For the first situation.

Dodge works slightly differently from the usual skills. Here's how your round might go. Firstly the badies win the initiative. They decide to shoot at the player.

The player now has a choice. He can do a partial dodge, or a full dodge.

If they choose the former then if the bad guys hit he rolls his dodge and tries to beat the bad guy's score in an opposed roll. For example the thugs open up and Tommy decides to do a partial dodge (hoping to get a chance to fire back). One scumbag rolls a 17, enough to hit at this range. Tommy then checks his dodge, 5D, then, as he is going to fire a shot himself, realises he's doing two actions that round. Thus he rolls 4D to dodge the shot, and 4D to make his own. If both badies hit, he would only roll 3D on the dodge and 3D on his shot (assuming he didn't get blown away!!)

If he decided to do a full dodge, then Tommy would roll all 5D, and add that to the difficulty score the thugs needed to hit him. So if they needed 15 to hit, and Tommy rolled 13, then the new score would be 28 to hit. However, the character can take no futher actions that round as he is diving for cover!


2) Lightsabres

Lightsabre combat counts as two actions to keep in operation. However, in our campiagn, we don't deduct this from perception as this will make the Jedi always go last!

Other than that, they work the same as normal melee attacks (don't forget the two actions already for having lightsabre combat up).

Lightsabres can do full dodge just the same as mentioned above.

Hope this helps!:)

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 12:20 PM
if i rember correctly, lightsaber combat and combat sence
do NOT count towards multi action penalties and since i feel someone will ask, skills like affect mind (uses Cont, Sen, and Alt) only count as one action even though you need to roll multiple times



8o :p :raised:

The Admiral
25 April 2002, 12:37 PM
Actually I just checked 2nd Ed R&E (pp90) and you can dodge multiple attacks using just one dodge roll. (Kinda obvious, really, if you had to dodge each individual bolt you'd soon be incapable of dodging any of them. Soon as you start getting shot at by three of four enemies, your odds on dodging any of them are so low as to be pointless. So in the first example, dodging both attacks and shooting once is two actions, not three.

Obviously, the full dodge is the ONLY action taken, just as Xan says :-)

sys64738
25 April 2002, 01:04 PM
Thanks, all. So far, Ithink I understand how the first example (involving
the blaster-fu) works. The second I'm still a little fuzzy on.

Saber Combat from the example:

Action: maintaining Saber Combat (2 actions)
Action: Parry blaster bolt (1 action)
Action: Reflect a blaster bolt (1 action)
Action: Saber strike (1 action)

So, that's five actions, total penalty -4d?
With 4d skill +3d Sense, that's 7d. Minus penalty, 3d for
the parry, the reflect, and the strike?

If Parry is like Dodge, then, I guess you could Parry all bolts
aimed at you, at least.

Unfortunately, he's not going to make his 20 skill roll to hit with the
saber with only 3d. In fact, he could wind up killing himself, yes?

Jedi_Staailis
25 April 2002, 01:34 PM
A minor correction. Keeping lightsaber combat up is two actions. "A character who is keeping a power "up" is usning the power's Force skills as long as the power is operating, and loses die codes as if taking actions." (2nd Ed. R&E 142). There's a good example of how this affects lightsaber combat under the Lightsaber Combat power description on page 148.

And yes, this would technically affect initiative checks as well, but Combat Sense can be used to make up for this deficiency.

You are right in thinking that parry works like dodge. One parry roll and you've set the to-hit difficulty for the round.

sys64738
25 April 2002, 01:37 PM
I did count it as two actions, or am I missing something?

And that example is confusing anyways. It says Gerrick the Jedi
would fight -and- parry at 7d. So, they aren't two seperate activities?
Should it say fight -or- parry at 7d? Except that since he's maintaining
Saber Combat, he subtracts 2d from all activities. SO he's really
only got 5d for striking and parrying? And apparently Reflecting
isn't an action in and of itself: he's at -2d for sustaining, and he
parries a blaster bolt. He also reflects it successfully, using his
Control (3d minus the 2d penalty) of 1d.

Come to think of it, the parry isn't an action either, I guess - judging
from the example.

Is that example of play supposed to read "However, since the
power is 'up', Gerrick subtracts -2D from all actions (other than
fighting and parrying/reflecting) while using the power." ?

The Admiral
25 April 2002, 01:45 PM
In your second example, and again, I just went to look this up;

There is no penalty to Initiative. Initiative is rolled with full available perception dice before the round starts, so Initiative would have been rolled prior to raising lightsaber combat. The only things that will lower an initiative roll are factors such as being stunned or wounded, or surprised. Actions have no effect on initiative.

In the first round the jedi would roll, in this order,

Initiative. (At full perception.)
Control. (At -4D) Rolling -1D
Sense. (At -4D) Rolling -1D
Lightsabre Combat. (At -4D) To parry, rolling 3D
Lightsabre Combat. (At -4D) To reflect, rolling 3D
Lightsabre Combat. (At -4D To strike, rolling 3D

In subsequent rounds, Perception remains at full dice for initiative.

However, since you may not be reduced to zero dice in any skill let alone negative values, it would be impossible for this Jedi to take these five actions.
In fact, with 3D Force Skills, the Jedi in question could only ever hope to take three actions (Unless using free actions) if they were intending to use Lightsabre combat.

In the example you've given, the Jedi in question would be much better advised to get the hell out of dodge. Run like a rabbit.
Just goes to show you, lightsabres are difficult and dangerous weapons, and should only be used by skillful Force users :-)


PS
Yes, you can roll a Full Parry with a lightsabre, that would establish the difficulty for all ranged weapons attack OR all melee attacks, but I'm pretty sure not both. (The 2nd Ed R&E glosses over this rather important idea) Parrying Blaster Bolts is the only circumstance where a hand held weapon is employed against a ranged attack. A more specific ruling on this might have been helpful.
I'd certainly rule that if a character wanted to deflect a blaster bolt and stop a lightsabre attack in the same round, it would be two actions.

sys64738
25 April 2002, 01:59 PM
re: reducing dice below zero

Ok, I'm missing something here. The example under Saber Combat
has the Jedi with a 3D Control and 2D+2 Sense. Somehow, his 4D
in Saber adds to 2D+2 and ends up 7D. I dunno. Later on, he
Parries and Reflects using this skill. So, that's 4 actions (2 maintaining,
1 Parry, 1 Reflect). So, -3D penalty. Except that would drop his
Control to 0D and his Sense to -1 pip, and he makes a 1D Control to
Reflect the bolt.

Anyone?

The Admiral
25 April 2002, 02:35 PM
Well, I can only go by what you use as your example;

Sense and Control at 3d each as well If you change the stats used, then it's unsurprising that the maths doesn't work with your revised example.

Declarations are that Jedi will activate Lightsaber Combat. Foes declare they will both Shoot at Jedi. Jedi adds that he will attempt to Parry the blaster fire in response.
Modified later to;

Action: maintaining Saber Combat (2 actions)
Action: Parry blaster bolt (1 action)
Action: Reflect a blaster bolt (1 action)
Action: Saber strike (1 action)
Either way, a Jedi with 3D in either Control or Sense cannot take more than three rolling actions in one round, because if they did, they would have to roll either no dice, or negative dice.
If you have two blaster parries as reactions skills, they would not be possible; you can only reflect blaster fire with the Lightsaber combat power up, and having an extra two actions would mean that the roll to bring lightsaber combat up would automatically fail.

Your initial example, where the Jedi brings up Lightsabre Combat, and then uses two Reaction Parrys is impossible. The Jedi's first action would be to roll his Control dice at -1D (Two declared actions during initiative, the reaction skills have not yet even been mentioned). Immediately afterwards, the two Gunboys would shoot. The only reason for them to defer their actions until later in the round is the GM being unusually kind, and their being unusually stupid. The Jedi would then have to either hope they miss, or make a Reaction Dodge, (he can't parry the shots because it is impossible to do so without having Lightsabre Combat up.which would automatically remove any chance of raising Lightsaber Combat that round, as you can't perform other actions after making a reaction roll.

If, however, the Jedi won Initiative, and declared that he would be making three actions, Raising Lightsabre Combat and a Blaster Parry, (He can't declare four actions, since he has only 3D in Control) then he would make his initial Control roll at -2D. Still, the goons would fire before Lightsabre Combat was raised, and again, he'd have to either hope they miss, or Reaction Dodge.

If in subsequent rounds, somehow the Jedi miraculously got LC up and running, they would be at -2D to all actions. Keeping the power up counts towards the die penalty for multiple actions even though it is not neccesary to roll the skill again. A power that is kept up similarly doesn't count as the first action in a round.

Hopefully, this will have clarified the point. If not, I'd suggest doing one of two things;

Re-read the sections on the Rulebook covering Initiative, keeping Force Powers up, and Multiple actions.

Present your examples again, with greater clarity in both the circumstances, and exactly what you are asking.

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 06:17 PM
here are a few things that might clarrify a few things...

Jedi may keep some powers "up" - that is, operating constantly, without having to make a new power roll every round. If the power can be kept "up," the power description will state this; otherwise the power can only be activated for the round in which it is used and then it drops.
If the player wishes to keep a power "up," it must be announced when the power is activated If the power roll is successful, the power operates continuously until the player has the character drop the power.
If a character is stunned or worse, all "up" powers are automatically dropped.
A character who is keeping a power "up" is using the skills the power requuires as long as the power is operating, and thus loses die codes even if he dosen't have to roll every round. For example, if a character is keeping the receptive telepathypower "up," which is a sense skill, the character loses - 1D to all die rolls whenever he does something else.

and also after closely examineing the rules for lightsaber combat,
i noticed it said that the powr is up untill you are injured or stunned. so basically once up it says up untill you say other waise, and my guess is that once it is brought "up" you don't get any multi action penalties.

i have also noticed everyone saying that you would have a -2D penalty from useing lightsaber combat. it is ONE action. it takes two force skills to use it, but it is a SINGLE power therefore one action.

so basically it would work out like this (if it was a round after lightsaber combat was put up)

Action:Lightsabercombat {} no penalty
Action:Parry blaster bolt {} -1D
Action:reflect bolt {} -1D
Action: strike (i would not recommend it) -1D
so basically if you where stupid enouph to defect AND strike (if deflecting don't strike, stay of defencive)
so basically blocking a blast hitting someone with the bolt, then sliceing another person. even though your lightsaber skill would be the same as before thats 2 kills and a cool looking defensive move :D

rember (this is actually starting to aggrevate me :rolleyes: ) even if a single force power uses more than one of the 3 skills ( the skills are control, alter, sense) it is still one action

sys64738
25 April 2002, 06:17 PM
Ok, the reason the numbers changed is because they're from totally
different instances. The first series was purely hypothetical.

The second series is from the 2nd ed Rulebook, in the Lightsaber
Combat explanation. It's isn't written very well, it's unclear. The
numbers don't add up, as I said. I will repost what I asked before,
since it still hasn't been answered (if anyone responds, please
-IGNORE- the first situations I posited.)

Pt 1: Lightsaber Combat example repost

And that example is confusing anyways. It says Gerrick the Jedi
would fight -and- parry at 7d. So, they aren't two seperate activities?
Should it say fight -or- parry at 7d? Except that since he's maintaining
Saber Combat, he subtracts 2d from all activities. SO he's really
only got 5d for striking and parrying? And apparently Reflecting
isn't an action in and of itself: he's at -2d for sustaining, and he
parries a blaster bolt. [It doesn't say how many dice he has; I guess
it would be 4.] He also reflects it successfully, using his Control of 3D
which was reduced to 1D, somehow, instead of the -1D or whatever
it should be.
(3D Control -2D for maintaining, -1D for parrying, -1D for reflecting)

The example doesn't seem to think neither the parry nor the reflection
is an action either, judging from the numbers.

Is that example of play supposed to read "However, since the
power is 'up', Gerrick subtracts -2D from all actions (other than
fighting and parrying/reflecting) while using the power." ?

Pt 2: That same example from the book, revisited

Ok, I'm missing something here. The example under Saber Combat
has the Jedi with a 3D Control and 2D+2 Sense. Somehow, his 4D
in Saber adds to 2D+2 and ends up 7D. I dunno. Later on, he
Parries and Reflects using this skill. So, that's 4 actions (2 maintaining,
1 Parry, 1 Reflect). So, -3D penalty. Except that would drop his
Control to 0D and his Sense to -1 pip, and he makes a 1D Control to
Reflect the bolt.

What I'm wondering is, are the examples given just completely wrong?

sys64738
25 April 2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by PapaSith1
...
rember (this is actually starting to aggrevate me :rolleyes: ) even if a single force power uses more than one of the 3 skills ( the skills are control, alter, sense) it is still one action

But the book specifically states:

"However, since the power is 'up', Gerrick subtracts -2D from all
actions while using the power."

So, what does that -2D entail, then? What does it cover? Why is it
there, barring a typo?

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 06:28 PM
to further support what i stated earlier here is the information of the force power.

Control Difficulty: Moderate
Sense Difficutly: Easy
This power may be kept "up."
Effect: To use a lighsaber most effectively, a Jedi learns this power. The Jedi uses this power both to wield this elegant but difficultl-to-control weapon while also sensing his opponent's actions through his connection to the Force.
This power is called upon at the start of a battle and remains "up" until the Jedi is stunned or injured; a Jedi who has been injured or stunned may attenpt to bring the power back "up."
If the Jedi is successful in using this power, the Jedi adds his snese dice to his lightsaber skill roll when trying to hit a target or parry, and he adds or subtracts up to the number of his control dice to the lightsaber's 5D damage when it hits in combat. Players must decide how many control dice they are adding or subtracting before they roll damage.
If the Jedi fails the power roll, he must use the lightsaber with only his lightsaber skill to hit and the weapon's normal damage incombat and he cannot attempt to use the power again for the duration of the combat.
Finally, the Jedi may use lightsaber combat to parry blaster bolts. To do this, the character must declare that he is parrying that round using his lightsaber skill as normal.
The Jedi may also attempt to control where deflected blaster bolts go, although this counts as an additional action. The Jedi must declare which specific shot he is controlling. Then, once the roll is made to see if the blaster bolt was parried by the Jedi, the Jedi makes a control roll, with the difficulty being his new target's dodge or the range (figured from the Jedi to the target). The damage is that of the original blaster bolt.

This power is called upon at the start of a battle and remains "up" until the Jedi is stunned or injured; a Jedi who has been injured or stunned may attenpt to bring the power back "up." i just wanted to point this out from it. notice is states that it remains up, not that it may be kept up, so it doesn't count toward multi action penalties in rounds past when it is brought up, which i will reinerate, is one action to bring up. thinking of it like this you might relize it is very good still. also if the event came up that you had where doing 3 or 4 actions with with it up you would add the 3 you had in sence or control to there respected thing and then subtract the D, so you could end up with less accurate of a strike but, you would be able to defect blaster bolts so it is all good :)

The Admiral
25 April 2002, 06:38 PM
PapaSith: You are in error.
"Many of these powers use a combination of the three Jedi skills. Calling upon each Force skill is a seperate action." (SWRPG MR 2nd Ed R&E pp 141)
"A character who is keeping a power 'up' is using the power's Force skills as long as the power is operating, and loses the die codes as if taking actions" (SWRPG MR 2nd Ed R&E pp 142)

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 06:39 PM
But the book specifically states:

"However, since the power is 'up', Gerrick subtracts -2D from all
actions while using the power."

So, what does that -2D entail, then? What does it cover? Why is it
there, barring a typo?
(sorry i don't know how to make the grey box thing8o )

this is what i got for the keeping force powers up. if you would like i can send you something i got that is a "jedi handbook" that has all the rules that apply directly to jedi's along with some home brewed ideas to clarify things.if you want it pm me and i can arrange way to send it

Keeping Powers Up
A Jedi may keep some powers "up" - that is, operating constantly, without having to make a new power roll every round. If the power can be kept "up," the power description will state this; otherwise the power can only be activated for the round in which it is used and then it drops.
If the player wishes to keep a power "up," it must be announced when the power is activated If the power roll is successful, the power operates continuously until the player has the character drop the power.
If a character is stunned or worse, all "up" powers are automatically dropped.
A character who is keeping a power "up" is using the skills the power requuires as long as the power is operating, and thus loses die codes even if he dosen't have to roll every round. For example, if a character is keeping the receptive telepathypower "up," which is a sense skill, the character loses - 1D to all die rolls whenever he does something else.

oh ya, i really think the whole -2D for force skills is BS. it is after all ONE action no non the less i would only apply a -1D penalty.
btw i have a thought that might help you more than anything here.
this (the D6 version) was made so the GM could shift the rules as he likes. if the GM doesn't like the way a rule is formed or feels it is incomplete he has the power and right to change it as he sees fit.

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 06:45 PM
Force Powers:
Using a power is just like any other action. @ One power equals one action and reduces the dice pool by 1D regardless of how many skills are incorporated into the power. By the time a Jedi masters a new power it is second nature to him. He doesn’t think, “OK... first I’ll activate Control, then Sense . . .,” he just opens himself to the Force and does it. If a Jedi wishes to use Projective Telepathy (Control and Sense) he may roll both skills with no penalty. If he wishes to use the power and dodge in the same round, all die codes are reduced by 1D (not 2D).

Keeping Powers “up.”:
There are some powers a Jedi may keep going rounds after activated. If a power may be kept “up,” it’s description will say so; otherwise the power drops at the end of the round it was activated. To keep a power “up,” the player must declare he is doing so when activating the power. The power continues to run, without further rolls, until the character either wishes to drop it or is stunned (or worse). @ While keeping a power “up” all die codes are dropped by 1D for every power up . . . not for every skill involved in the power. If a Jedi keeps Lightsaber Combat (Control and Sense) and Absorb/Dissipate Energy (Control) “up” all die codes are reduced by 2D, not 3D.

the original source for these are unknown to me but i got them from a "jedi handbook" i got. they make sence to me and i know when i GM they are what i will apply. yet everyone is entitaled to there own opinion one how rules should be so feel free to adjust it as you see fit

sys64738
25 April 2002, 06:50 PM
So, what you're saying is that penalties for maintaining a force power
are not subtracted from that power's dice pool, but are from any other
actions performed while it is up.

I.E. : maintaining the infamous Saber Combat; the act of maintaining
it does not count as an action for the sake of using it
(Parrying/Reflecting and Striking). BUT - if the Jedi were to Dodge or
do anything else, he would apply the penalty to the other skill's dice pool.

e.g:

7D in Saber combat (currently maintaining LS)

actions:
Melee strike (1st action)
Parry a blaster bolt (or two, I suppose) (2nd action)
Jump a small ditch (3rd action, but you must add the maintainance)

He'll be at 5D for the Strike and Parry, (3 actions; -2D total) and must try
the Jump roll at Jump skill -4D (5 actions; maintenance (2), strike, parry, jump; -4D total).

Here, I'm still assuming that the 2D penalty in the example is correct.

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 07:01 PM
basically i guess so,
but there is something to rember,
if you have 3d in all force skills (just hypothetical) you are obviously not a very experianced jedi so you wouldn't be able to pull of all the cool stuff like in the movies. if you plan to try and defelect a blaster bolt back at them and strike, being a less expireanced jedi you would find some trouble in completeing this, you would need something simpler, like defect in random direction, and strike that would only be -2D, and another -1D for the lightsaber combat (or -2D how ever you interpret this rule.)

and i apologize for before i read a bit more and the rules in the book state that every skill is an action, but i think that is silly so i am sticking with the version of the rule stated above (rember minor rule changes are up to the GM)

sys64738
25 April 2002, 07:06 PM
Oh, I understand that 3D isn't all that much - I just want to know how
it works. I'm piling on the actions just to see how it works.

I guess it's gonna boil down to me sitting down with the GM and
hashing out some clear(er) rules for multi actions.

PS: with only 7D (at best), it'll be pretty chancy hitting at all; target
of 20? You can do that -reasonably- reliably with 7D, I guess.
Throw in a Parry and you're at 6D for each. Still possible, but
getting to the 50% area.

PapaSith1
25 April 2002, 07:16 PM
in my experiance, unless you are fighting another jedi or REALLY powerful person, 7D for a strike is plenty for hit most enemies

The Admiral
25 April 2002, 07:28 PM
I think it's perhaps easiest to say that if a character is keeping a power up, then it counts as 1, 2, or 3 non-roll actions. It counts as per normal vis a vis die penalties, BUT it doesn't need to be rolled, and it also has no time slot. The power being kept up is not the first action you take in a round.

As a rule of thumb, you should raise Lightsabre Combat the round BEFORE you're likely to use it. (You don't have to ignite the sabre to bring the power up.)