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Nealos
27 April 2002, 04:30 PM
First things first - I am more disappointed than anyone else about how things have ground to a halt on Starwars-rpg.net. Allow me a brief description of the variables that led into this, then I'll cover some next steps.

WHAT HAPPENED?

1. For a very long time now, I've been involved in a start-up company as part owner and vice president. We are a web applications development firm and have become quite successful. To those who have started businesses before, you already know what my life is like. To those unfamiliar with the life of an entrepreneur, suffice to say that when you start a business it owns you night and day. I laugh hysterically when people say, "Wow, it must be nice to not have boss!" Yeah...whatever...I'd kill for a 9-5 job. Why am I doing it? Because I'm an entrepreneur at heart (this is the sixth business I've started in my life - I'm 27 years old). Read "entrepreneur" as "terminal illness." :)

2. At the end of last year, I was well on my way to firmly deciding for myself that I would MAKE time for starwars-rpg.net. It is a labor of love and something that helps me get away from "it all."

I was in the midst of throwing together some plans to bring it back alive. My first and criteria was to retain it's original mission of being "for the community" - in all ways possible. My second and remaining criteria was that I would make sure that it works in concert with swrpgnetwork.com, an obviously up and coming site.

I was in talks with Armage and Moridin (webmasters of swrpgnetwork.com) about how to sort of divy up the "community offerings" - content and services that everyone wants to have. The purpose was to not duplicate effort, and more importantly to avoid a perception that we were competing.

In a nutshell, we discussed a lot of things. The major issue was that I wanted to transform starwars-rpg.net into a place where high quality SWRPG sites were hosted and then offer the Journal - in an even more terrific form. More professional offering, bring on some staff writers for columns, break it into an issue every two or three months to give us time to create extremely high quality publications, and offer downloadable and printable versions.

There's one thing I knew from our experience of providing the journal in the past - getting enough good material to produce a full journal was a lot of work. There is a limited amount of people who create full-fledged homebrew stuff (I'm not talking about simple stats).

When Armage and Moridin and myself were talking, I said that I wanted to divert any submissions that weren't stats over to the Journal. Armage told me they were already planning to offer an submissions section of swrpgnetwork.com because their visitors were asking for it all the time. I reasoned that this was a simple fit - in the spirit of community, starwars-rpg.net could handle all submissions other than stats and thus produce a high-quality journal for everyone. Vice versa, all stats coming in to both sites would go into swrpgnetwork.com.

Instead of our sites each focusing on something specific (thus increasing the quality produced), Armage informed me that since "their readers" wanted a submissions site, they would be providing it, and that they weren't really envisioning trying to integrate the two sites beyond just sharing news to both front pages.

Let me take a moment to point out something. Armage says "their readers." I call them community members. Thus is the gap...read on.

So, what happened to the Journal? It's not getting off the ground in it's original form if I and others have to break our back to fill each issue - that's all there is to it. It was too hard before. With the rise in popularity of d20, there is an increase in submission material. Since we happily support both systems, that meant it wouldn't be a problem. Unless of course, another site decides to take on submissions...a site with great popularity, like swrpgnetwork.com.

You want the truth? Myself and a bunch of others were pretty disappointed when swrpgnetwork.com started up, because we saw all of this coming. Armage was secretive about the site with me because he wanted it to be a surprise, and it sure was. Oh look! ANOTHER community site that caters to the fans! Yeah, that worked out great. Two things killed starwars-rpg.net - loss of personal time on our part and a split in the communities attention to two big sites instead of one. I had approached Armage about pitching in more with starwars-rpg.net (way before the swrpgnetwork.com launched). His response was that he and Moridin were "working on something." Next thing I know it, swrpgnetwork.com comes out and the first thing we lose is the holonet.

You'd think I'd be mad, but I'm not. First off, I'm an adult about things. Second, I understand Armage and Moridin are pretty excited about what they're doing. I would be too. I mean, here they are, in bed with WotC, which is great for audience pull as long as that company keeps from pissing off all their consumers (we'll see how long they can go on that one). Besides, they've built a really great property here that is attractive, useful and powerful.

It's too bad they went off and did that even though there was already an attractive, useful and powerful fansite for SWRPG. I often think of how great it would have been... I was hoping to get Moridin, Armage, and about three other guys into the fold so that Starwars-rpg.net would be truly fantastic (picture the two sites combined!) and most importantly, truly a community effort (you all would drool if you knew what i had as ideas for the future).

Anyway, I'm done. With all of it. I used to want to contribute to the community and write neat stuff. Now I just want to write - creating a community didn't work. If I learned one thing out of it all, it's that community is a sense that has to be in all of us to begin with. It's not something I can set out to create and generate and promote and stoke like a fire...that only goes so far.

So, I'm going to commit an hour or two of my time per week to getting the archived journals back on line for everyone. Unless I get a shot in the arm or a strike of lightening, there will be no new Journal. Starwars-rpg.net will remain in place and will serve as a portal to the hosted sites and the journal archives. I might work on some other ideas with Chris Curtis and whoever else, time permitting.

Please understand that all of this is unpaid work. It was easy for me to put out ten to thirty hours on it a week when I was in college. Now, I am a vice president of a software company and happily married. I love SW even more than back in the day, but have to work on my own time discipline to get back into producing stuff for it. Kurlnova was an extreme effort for me to put out. My first site, the SWSRC, is something i'd like to focus on. There are more untapped opportunities and ideas there than not, and I'd love to put my back into actually writing and creating instead of administrating a big site.

To those that are shuffling their feet, being disappointed at me about all this, understand one thing very carefully - if Starwars-rpg.net were to rise again, with people's help and all sorts of cool stuff going on, it would be living a lie. It's not a community site anymore, because it was replaced by swrpgnetwork.com, and I'm not going to be the fool jumping up and down and yelling, "Starwars-rpg.net is a community site!" when the community's efforts are split straight down the middle. That's why the show can't go on.

Oh, and Armage and Moridin? I know you'll probably be all pissed off, or "confused and shocked," but let's face it - we're either with each other or against each other...that's why I backed Starwars-rpg.net down out of the limelite. Because competition is the opposite of community, and no matter how it's labeled, two of the same thing is the SAME thing.

Enjoy, and I look forward to any discussion. Please keep it in this thread so I can track it easily. If you wish to email me privately, you can do so at swsrc@starwars-rpg.net or tim.salam@essemble.com.

Thanks for your time everyone, and let's have a great time at the upcoming movie!!

Sil7
27 April 2002, 05:46 PM
I find this rather saddening. I have to respectfuly dissagree with some of the points made.

1. It was stated that SWRPGNetwork is "in bed" with WotC. From what I can see, they are simply covering new SWRPG material in a quality manner.

As to anything else, I refrain from speaking because I don't have enough information about the situation to formulate a correct opinion. I will say this. It could be that Armage and Moridin made a mistake. But judging from my past experiances with them, I do not think they made it to intentionaly malign or hurt anyone. They have always been helpful and freindly with me.

Whatever the case, it is an unfortunate and disheartning situation, for everyone.

Let the other side of the story be heard,

Sil7

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
27 April 2002, 06:28 PM
A year ago I went online seaching for internet resources for the SWRPG. I looked at tons of fan sites including both this one and starwars-rpg.net. To this day I have both in my favorites drop down. I never saw the sites as competition. Mostly because at least by the time that I looked at the sites there was none. I watched as links went bad on your site.

You talk about Moridin and Armage and say how disappointed you were that they didn't help you. These guys churn out enough material to give WotC a run for their money (in the SW line anyway). If you want to act like an adult then do it; don't point fingers as ask hypothetical questions - walk away and wish them luck. Or if you were even more the adult you could ask them what help their site needed.

Nealos
27 April 2002, 07:00 PM
In response to Sil7:

First, swrpgnetwork.com *is* in bed with WotC, but that's a good thing (don't anyone read that as me saying it's bad). Moridin is the moderator of their official discussion list for the SWRPG product, and they obviously have clear inroads with the company. For instance, Moridin providing a review of material that won't publicly release for two weeks. Having a strong relationship with the vendor you are supporting is optimal, and they've done an admiral job of creating that relationship.

MOST IMPORTANTLY that I be understood that Armage and Moridin have not intentionally maligned me or anyone else. They are good fellas, and I support their efforts. What I am disappointed in is that there was already a powerful and popular SWRPG fansite "brand" if you will, up and running with a huge audience for a year before swrpgnetwork.com hit the scene. Starwars-rpg.net came about because I wanted to contribute to something bigger than myself for SWRPG, but WEG crashed and there was nothing tying the online audience together - so we created it. I am naive in assuming that it's most logical that Armage and Moridin would have hopped in to Starwars-rpg.net only because it was something that they could add their talents to and help build (note the concept of community here). Finally, it should be pointed out that Starwars-rpg.net is run by three people on equal ground, and I wanted to add Armage and Moridin into that fold (as did the other two Starwars-rpg.net webmasters) to create a larger, more capable "Starwars-rpg.net Committee" or whathaveyou. I never have and never want to run the show - I want community. The fact that my vision was not realized was simply a reality check saying, "Nealos, you can't create community - it has to be there before you arrived."

In response to FrobiWanKenobi:

This isn't finger pointing. I'm explaining in a verbose manner that Starwars-rpg.net can not continue billing itself as a community property (while we and Armage/moridin are not working together when we once were) nor provide the Journal, something that was already woefully hard to generate material for BEFORE swrpgnetwork.com is gathering submissions as well. Why?

Picture it... "Starwars-rpg.net - you community site! Send us your submissions, don't send them to swrpgnetwork.com or we won't be able to put the Journal out! We're you community site, so send everything here not there!" Kind of laughable, yes?

Ask them what help their site needed? I haven't gotten that far, Frobi. I'm only just now exiting the denial that Starwars-rpg.net is no longer viable, at least in it's current form. I've been "walking away and wishing them luck" for some time now, all the while wondering what to do with Starwars-rpg.net that won't completely disappoint loyal visitors yet not slap swrpgnetwork.com in the face with competitiveness. Forgive me, but my hands are feeling a tiny bit tied.

Finally, though I spoke of it more than not in my initial post, I don't have a problem with Armage and Moridin. For pete's sake, they're doing what Ryan, Chris and myself did when we started up Starwars-rpg.net - putting their backs into a great thing and pulling it off nicely. If there's anything I respect in this world, it's setting a goal and chasing after it with gusto. I applaud them and their efforts.

I'm just wishing for a more unified approach. It may be a trait from my business life. You see, there are two types of companies other than your own - partners and competitors... Rule 1: The former insulates you from the latter, Rule 2: Greatness comes from partnership (same concept as "one nation, one people" in the constitution of the U.S.). SImply put, the sum is greater than the parts and I was hoping to see as many parts as possible, unified.

I really feel like I'm talking about the whole swrpgnetwork.com thing too much. That's not really the issue. The issue is how starwars-rpg.net should move forward.

Jedi_Staailis
27 April 2002, 07:01 PM
Nealos posted his second reply while I was typing this. Please take that into account, and forgive me for any outdated comments. I think it all still applies, but I could have missed something. :D


I agree with FrobiWan. If you wanted an equal split in submitted material, you would have needed to stand and deliver. When ideas of a combined site fell apart, again, StarWars-RPG.net needed to be brimming with new material and fan submissions. But none of that happened, and SWRPGNetwork was coming out with quality material left and right. You have stated some very good reasons for cutting back on the time you spend on StarWars-RPG.net, and I fully respect those decisions. In my own life, I have seen many a valued personal project fall by the wayside under the weight of responsibility. StarWars-RPG.net remains an excellent resource by placing many major SWRPG sites in one place, and is quite useful in that respect. But compared with SWRPGNetwork, both starwars-rpg.net and its subsites are a static resource.

I'll admit that running a website takes a lot of time. Moridin and Armage (and the webmasters of the subsites: conversions and submissions) seem to be able to put in that time, and we as fans gobble it up. Their readers (I would put us as a subsection of the Star Wars roleplaying community), wanted a submissions section, badly (anyone who was on the Holonet before the Submissions went live knows this very well), and perhaps Moridin and Armage didn't think StarWars-RPG.net would be able to effectively handle the volume. Or maybe there was another reason; I won't presume to think for them.

Whatever their motivation was, the proposed merger of sorts never took place, and StarWars-RPG.net has been fading to the background. You can see it as a battle that StarWars-RPG.net has lost, but I would hope that you do not. I believe that it is a simple evolution of the "community." You selflessly gave your time and ideas to the rest of us, but now other things have come into your life. Armage and Moridin are giving of themselves to produce their site (admittedly, they each had their earlier sites, but they were nothing in comparison), while they can. What I find amazing is that people are willing to donate so much of their time to make something the rest of us enjoy.

Chris Curtis
27 April 2002, 07:31 PM
Well... wow... I'm really not even sure how to respond. I'm certainly sorry to hear that StarWars-RPG.Net will be "grinding to a halt". Then again, I guess it really isn't all that surprising, either.

I'll also say that I pretty much agree with you (Nealos) regarding the whole semi-competition that came to be because of the SWRPGNetwork launch. I'll be the first one to agree, though, that Armage and Moridin have provided a great service to the community and that they deliver great content.

Anyway, I'm certainly interested in being a part of any discussions or such that go on regarding the future of StarWars-RPG.Net.

BRodgers
27 April 2002, 07:48 PM
First things first,
Nealos, thank you for responding to my concerns and everyone elses. It took a lot of guts to stand up and get this off of your chest I'm sure, and I think we all respect that.

Second, I dont think you are handling this situation badly at all. Those who stand up and comment about you handling it "like an adult" need to check themselves. You and the other webmasters of StarWars-RPG.Net were providing a HUGE community service long before any other site considered stepping up to the plate. For those who don't know (mainly those relatively new to the community), StarWars-RPG.Net was THE original community site for the SWRPG, and as such I think all othe sites owe them a debt of gratitude. Therefore, I can understand Nealos feeling as he does, I dare say he has invested way more blood sweat and tears into his site than any of us can ever appreciate.

As far as the future of Starwars-RPG.Net, I personally, would hate to see it go. I think others are mistaken when they refer to it as a "static" site. One needs to remember that the hosted sites are just as important to Starwars-Rpg.Net as the site itself. No other site is offering hosting for the fine sites you have there, which is another bit of proof that you are more interested in the community than anything else.

I understand your inability to contribute as much time as you can, and I think this is unfortunate. But I think this is a wake up call to everyone in the community that , now, more than ever, we should offer our support and aid to this fine site.

Now, lets get something straight, I'm not knocking SWRPGNetwork...they do a solid job and all that, but, and call me crazy(most do), sometimes I want something... different ...and thats what I come to Starwars-RPG.Net for. I could care less about competition, as I dont think there are any winners or losers here...I'm more concerned with the final result, which is, to me, the preservation and rejuvenation of Starwars-Rpg.Net into a solid and dominant site in the community once again.

That being said, I openly offer my services, in whatever capacity, to help Starwars-RPG.Net get back on it's feat and to begin offering new and useable material for the community. And for those of you who would rather be armchair quarterbacks and make random comments on the holonet instead of acting...I challenge you to throw your hat in and offer to help a site that has given a whole heck of a lot to this community.

Nealos
27 April 2002, 09:29 PM
******** In response to Jedi_Staailis:

I didn't want an equal split in material between the two sites. I wanted stats stuff to be handled by the stats experts (Armage/Moridin) and the fanfic/homebrew write-ups to go to the Journal.

A brief history for you to better understand current comments and events... WAY back in the day, Armage announced that he was launching a BBS for swrpg, called the holonet. It was a standalone site. Ryan Matheny, Chris Boudreaux and myself (the webmasters of Starwars-rpg.net) were already MONTHS into developing Starwars-rpg.net. When we heard Armage's announcement, we saw an opportunity.

I proposed to him that we combine the sites, thus providing an online journal and the holonet. He ultimately decided to do so, but didn't want to completely put the holonet onto starwars-rpg.net, for whatever reason. I think he said something about not wanting to tie it to any single site because he didn't want it to have a bias.

I figured he'd shrug his reluctance off as time bore on and he saw that Starwars-rpg.net was truly a community effort and thus had no bias. Instead of what I expected, he slowly pulled further and further away. I think he saw the holonet as something very popular and became enticed by the prospect of being a separate site (the fame, the glory, etc.).

Further down the road, Starwars-rpg.net offered hosting to Moridin's site. I wanted to propose to Moridin that we combine our sites together. I then wanted to get Armage back into the mix with his holonet. I figured that a site with the holonet, moridin's clear talent for keeping news updates rolling and the journal coming out strong every month or so would add up to a really sweet site.

Well, I guess I was wrong. Armage and Moridin opened up swrpgnetwork.com - "the future of SW-RPG content on the web." Yeah, that felt great to see from our point of view. My favorite quote from their release announcement? "SWRPGNetwork would like to be a community partner, forming yet another link in the chain of sites that make this community a reality." What chain? There was Starwars-rpg.net, pulling hundreds of visitors per day and then every individual swrpg site out there that collected 50-500 visitors per YEAR. Community partner? Go to m-w.com and look up the word partner, people - just so we are all on the same page.

Anyway, long story short - a community site is a site that combines the talents of all community members. It's not having audience members saying to themselves, "Hmm...I have this really cool adventure that I wrote. I wonder which site I should send it to?" THAT'S the part Armage never understood, and denied would be a problem. And you know what? It isn't a problem, because Starwars-rpg.net stopped in it's tracks rather than maintain it's stance and thus be party to a competitive environment.


************ In response to Chris Curtis:

When did all this get so complicated? Remember the days when you and I would swap HTML tricks and tips, and the only ones who knew about our website was each other and a few friends? God, that was fun back then. Now, I feels like a damned mess to me.

Maybe Starwars-rpg.net isn't grinding to a halt. Maybe I'm just frustrated as hell and have don't know which direction to take...


************ In response to BRodgers:

Wow... I'm speechless. Seriously, that was a total display of graciousness that I can only say a great THANK YOU for. I'm glad you remember Starwars-rpg.net in the form of it's hey day, not the limping domain it is now.

I am terribly grateful for your offer of help. Even if it's just someone to bounce ideas off of, that's help right there.

Let's figure things out. All of us...together. I refuse to give up my possibly naive and idealistic notion of community. I want to know what the community has to say about it all. What should be done with starwars-rpg.net? Is it a time to revitalize? Should we drift into obscurity and close down? Should we totally rethink it's direction? Is it time for Tim, Ryan and Chris B. to hang up their keyboards and pass the domain to other community members, new blood? What's the word?

BRodgers, you are the shot in the arm that I needed. I would hate to see starwars-rpg.net go as well. I think we all would. Let's get this hashed out. Everyone, email your friends and tell them to get the hell over to this thread and get involved - post an opinion, do some talking and listening and thinking. I'm looking for community - is it out there?

ij thompson
27 April 2002, 09:57 PM
Nealos, thank you so much for 'laying it on the line' like this. I suspect this is a post we've all been unconsciously waiting for for a long time. Since starwars-rpg.net first went live, it has always been home to me, and I've been there through it all (though silently the majority of the time). I remember how it felt when that first online 'teaser' for swrpgnetork.com went up, and I've always wondered what's been going on between the two of you ever since. But you know what?

It hasn't mattered. Because, as I see it, you and swrpgnetwork.com are doing completely different things. I believe there's room for everyone around here, and if the truth be told, your site is more, quite simply, 'my kinda place'. I enjoy the Holonet, but I miss the stuff I used to get at your site - the fiction, editorials, rules for dejarik and the like. It's what I'm looking for when I go online.

With that in mind, I make my offer to do whatever I can in aid of starwars-rpg.net. Whether that be writing fiction, columns, or even keeping my poor, neglected site up to date, I want to do whatever I can... for your site, and for the good of online swrpg overall!

StClair
27 April 2002, 10:30 PM
(If I sound a little upset here, it's because I was left as much in the dark as anyone. Bets on whether I keep my editor job after this?)

Nealos, by your own admission, you have more important things going on in your life that have consumed most of your time. Meanwhile, Armage et al have been constantly working on their site. Which do you think is going to be more popular, a half-broken site with one of its most important draws off-line indefinitely (and with no communication from the webmaster when things might get fixed), or a fully-functioning, submissions-accepting site with active forums?

Now I understand that you might be upset that the Holonet stole your thunder and/or your readers. But if you're going to drop off the net for a year with no warning, don't be surprised if people find alternatives and/or get tired of waiting.

I'm sorry that you feel hurt that Armage et al decided to pursue their own vision instead of buying into yours. (What would their role have been, anyway? Managing the site in your absence?) It sounds like you have a lot of emotional investment in being The Best SW-RPG Community Site. But being first and having big plans for the future isn't good enough. It's like a race; if you slow down, someone else will pass you. If you are unable to put in the time to keep the site current, people will find their content elsewhere. Some will keep coming back, out of sentiment or stubborn hope, but when they continue to find no signs of life, they'll eventually move on to the new hub. That's how it works in online communities.

I wish you good luck with your future endeavors and, of course, please let me know if there is anything I can do to help get the Journal archives back up.

Nealos
27 April 2002, 10:58 PM
In response to StClair:

Kelly, you've got the timeline of events confused. Go back and read my posts in this thread again.

The holonet didn't steal anyone's thunder. Armage separated it from Starwars-rpg.net as it became more and more popular. Also, this happened WELL before I became inactive online for the past year plus. Finally, starwars-rpg.net didn't fall by the wayside only because I had little time to do anything with it - there were plenty of other people working on it. It fell to the wayside because ever since swrpgnetwork.com came online, I've increasingly been trying to figure out how to continue starwars-rpg.net without appearing competitive. It was the only way to start diminishing the growing comments from many visitors that they felt confused about why Armage took the holonet off starwars-rpg.net and why he and moridin started a separate site. I got email after email asking me what was going on, and my only response was to freeze up and not do anything that would start taking the community apart at the seams.

Additionally, I was not trying to recruit other webmasters to do my work for me while I was gone, I was trying to build a site that combined the best of all thing online swrpg. You say I have a lot of emotional investment in being the "best." This shows me you have not understood anything I've said in my previous threads.

Let me be clear when I say that if I were to have an "emotional investment in being the best" site on the web, it would have happened. Were I maligned in my intentions and only paying lipservice to the community concept, I could easily bring the full weight of my company's developers, designers, proprietary software and money to bear and create a site that would make any other look, run and read like a wet noodle - starwars.com included. Of course, all that would be accomplished is for me to say, "I am the best! I can do everything!" Wow. Whatever. That's sure why I linked up with Ryan Matheny and Chris Boudreaux in the first place...

Sound arrogant? That's part of competition, and it has no place here. Why do I not do what I just described? You tell me - do the math.

Again, go back and read my posts. You say, "It's like a race. If you slow down, someone else will pass you." Can anyone explain how this is responsive to my constant yapping about the community concept? Finally, you say, "Being first and having big plans for the future isn't good enough." Well gosh Kelly, sorry for dropping the ball.

StClair
28 April 2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Nealos
The holonet didn't steal anyone's thunder. Armage separated it from Starwars-rpg.net as it became more and more popular. Also, this happened WELL before I became inactive online for the past year plus.


Yet you seem to say that this was what split the community. Which is it?



Finally, starwars-rpg.net didn't fall by the wayside only because I had little time to do anything with it - there were plenty of other people working on it.


Who? I never heard from any of them. I was waiting on you. Specifically, I was waiting for some of the big changes you promised to materialize - a revamp of the main page, the conversion of the Journal to a new content-management system, etc. So far as I saw, none of this ever happened. So far as I knew, this was all your project, your baby, your responsibility.



It fell to the wayside because ever since swrpgnetwork.com came online, I've increasingly been trying to figure out how to continue starwars-rpg.net without appearing competitive. It was the only way to start diminishing the growing comments from many visitors that they felt confused about why Armage took the holonet off starwars-rpg.net and why he and moridin started a separate site. I got email after email asking me what was going on, and my only response was to freeze up and not do anything that would start taking the community apart at the seams.


So rather than deal with the issue - rather than forging ahead on your own and ignoring talk of competition, rather than try to work things out with Armage then, rather than swallowing some pride and subordinating your vision to his (instead of vice-versa, as you wanted), rather than TELLING ANYBODY WHAT WAS GOING ON - you did nothing. You abdicated.

How is that anybody's responsibility but your own, Tim?




Let me be clear when I say that if I were to have an "emotional investment in being the best" site on the web, it would have happened. Were I maligned in my intentions and only paying lipservice to the community concept, I could easily bring the full weight of my company's developers, designers, proprietary software and money to bear and create a site that would make any other look, run and read like a wet noodle - starwars.com included.


It sounds like what you did instead was concentrate on real business. That was probably a good idea. This isn't anyone's job, with the exception of the guys who work on starwars.com.

It also seems I was unclear when I said "emotional investment" out of context. Perhaps I should have added, "but were unable to take the time and make the effort to back it up, due to your other committments." We all have to set our priorities. Real life should always come before a fansite, IMO. I just wish you could have realized your limitations and let me and the other folks waiting for the Journal know sooner.



Again, go back and read my posts. You say, "It's like a race. If you slow down, someone else will pass you." Can anyone explain how this is responsive to my constant yapping about the community concept?


There was community at swrpg-net. You stopped updating. It moved here. Now this is the community, and swrpg-net is history. (History happens fast on the net.)



Finally, you say, "Being first and having big plans for the future isn't good enough." Well gosh Kelly, sorry for dropping the ball.

When I think this apology is sincere, I'll think about accepting it.

Deano
28 April 2002, 01:20 AM
How to start......<shrug>

I like many others, I was there at the bright and billiant start, back when there wasn't even the starwars-rpg.net site, back when it was just, as we all fondly remember, 'The list'. This brought the scattered community together and where I met everyone. For me it was a light in the dark tunnel, at last there was a place where ideas could be talked about with other SWRPG GM's and players. For me, the starwars-rpg.net site was the next step in the community direction and it was an extension of 'The list'. This was certainly the high point in the community. Thinking back, and this has only just occured to me, as the community progressed so did my site, I was inspired to do more and to present it in a better way. In my mind, the progression was certainly linked.

Anyway, then came the holonet and as a result the death of the much missed 'list'. From here we all know the story.

When Armage and Moridin launched their new site, there were a number of us who saw the writing on the wall. Whilst not directly in competion with each other it was clear that the coummity would end up getting divided. Still, it happened and over time the swrpgnetwork retracted its support from the starwars-rpg.net site (ie the holonet). I may be wrong in this, but that's certainly how it appeared. With all this happening I can understand why Nealos and the boyz got a bit disheartened with it all, let alone any personal issues. Unfortunately, you guys let the site slide and the community suffered.

Then all of a sudden we see a site facelift, and it was with joy that I viewed the new look and thought to myself 'It's back!'. We were harshly denied....

Nealos, think I'd speak for everyone when I say 'The site is badly missed and there is still a place in the community for it'. Like always, I'm here to lend support, inspiration and advice the same way you have done for me and many others.

Deano


PS On a personnal note, email me you swine.

BRodgers
28 April 2002, 04:13 AM
I think the time for finger pointing has passed. If any posters think they are doing some good by questioning how Nealos stated his points and his intentions, please do us all a favor:

Go create your own SWRPG site, nurse it and throw all of your time and effort into it. Once it becomes a community leader and widely respected by everyone, then please, by all means come back and throw wahtever questions and barbs you feel are necessary at Nealos. Until then however, you have NO idea what he has either been through or done for the community, and possibly have no appreciation for where he is coming from. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this thread isn't about how we can stir up some sort of daytime soap opera drama, its about how we can get a site we all respect and love back on its feet.

That being said, lets clear up something else. Starwars-RPG.Net is NOT history. As long as there is a community and as long as there are members who want to see it live and prosper, there will ALWAYS be a place for it. Saying it is "history" is also doing a great disservice to the find sites hosted there. Is "Elrood Sector" history? Is DLOS history? I think not. As we all know, there are always going to be people who "jump to the new thing"...and thats fine....but the important thing isn't that SWRPGNetowrk exists...it is that StarwarsRPG-Net is always there to come back to. Or for those new people starting to play the game all the time who first hit the web. Sure, they may check out the other sites, heck may even like them better..but it is VITAL that other sites exists for people to come to and get new ideas and stats and whatnot.
(I hate to sound cliche' but would you rather have a choice of soda or be stuck with the EXACT SAME THING ALL THE TIME?)

I think Starwars-Rpg.Net has a fantastic chance to once again be a community leader. And if it isn't in conjunction with another site, who cares? As long as the people who work on it are doing their thing and loving it and as long as the people who visit are seeing new things and getting new information and digging the site what does it matter? I dare say that members of the community would be thrilled to see a quality site like StarWars-RPG.Net up and revamped, as opposed to the state it is in now or gone completely.

Let me ask a question...have you people seven seen the state the SWRPG website community is in? It's pathetic! Webmasters these days get the ambition to maybe post a handful of stats , a few ripped off pictures and thats about it. Most websites occupy maybe twenty minutes of your time make you go "Wow, I think they stole that picture from SWGamer" and move on. I dare say there is PLENTY of room for two SWRPG mega-sites on the web without anyone feeling they need to get their nose bent out of shape. Granted, there are always going to be a few quality sites pop up here and there, but they aren't a hub for community activity, rather they are smaller campaign driven sites, which can be cool, but rather limited in scope.

So, hopefully we can all acknowledge that there is indeed a place and interest to breath life back into StarwrasRPG-Net. Now, how about we get down into the nuts and bolts of how to do it?

Ideas?:D

Nealos
28 April 2002, 08:43 AM
*********** In response to StClair:

Let me help you and anyone else out really quick here - I don't OWE ANYBODY an apology. You seem to believe I'm blaming other people and anything else I can grasp onto. In your first post, you said, "Now I understand that you might be upset that the Holonet stole your thunder and/or your readers." You've missed the entire point - they aren't MY READERS and there wasn't MY THUNDER here.

Before starwars-rpg.net, there was a total vacuum - just sites randomly spread like stars. What we built was a focal point, a gathering place. Everyone in the swrpg online universe gathered there and was mailing in offers to do this and do that. This showed how badly the community wanted a focal point.

It all slid downhill starting around when swrpgnetwork.com came alive and WotC entered the scene. There used to be an incredibly vibrant community, and maybe there still is (I can't find it). All I know is Jae's e-list and the starwars-rpg.net list are completely dead (where they were once bustling) and starwars-rpg.net is floating in paralysis. What happened? What did this? Was it the shift from d20 that just made everyone start acting and doing things differently? What the hell happened?

Where's the story? Stats, stats, stats, but where's the glue? People used to talk about that. Now, it's all about stats. Between WotC's delivery of d20 (can we please get more complicated??) and everyone's obsession with converting everything, the real fiber got completely lost in the shuffle. Where'd my game go? The one I know? Not some number-crunching experience where everyone's futzing with that bonus and this attribute, but the one where you tell a story. Does ANYONE even *remember* what was Star Wars' best attribute? THE STORY OF IT ALL. We didn't flock to theaters and buy all the rpg books because we are detail-oriented, dice-obsessed crazies.

Things to think about....



********** In response to Deano:

Deano, good to hear from you (ironic that I'm the one saying that, yes? ;)

So, I see that based on the value of nostalgia (the list), I can count you in on some investigation of future effort. Good to know. I was looking at my archived newsletter posts to the email list from back in the day... I think I'm missing when things were simpler. :)

Thanks much for speaking up. I appreciate it.


************ In response to BRodgers:

Once again, you have my back! I now dub you "Mr. Has My Back Man!" <lol> ... Seriously, thanks, and you're right. It's easy to be an armchair critic and forget the herculean effort that went into it all, and by more people than just myself.

Ideas? You ask for ideas? I'm full of them.

Before we need ideas, we need to know two things up front - who can work for the site and for how long per week or month or whatever. We need a good collection of staff so that the duties are more spread out. It can't be a big pile of people with like one hour per month each - that will turn into a coordination nightmare.

The state of affairs of Starwars-rpg.net's Webmasters: I can't do most everything anymore, Ryan Matheny is taking a bit of a sabbatical (I believe), and Chris Boudreaux has less time than Ryan and myself put together now because of his job. In short, we're not doin' so well! :)

So, I'm thinking that over the next few days or week or so, we need everyone to consider what they can do in terms of time committment for the site. Once we have that figured out, we can start thinking about what we want the site to do for us, for the community. Do we want the Journal? Do we want something different?

Chris Curtis
28 April 2002, 09:19 AM
Ah, it's like a fresh breeze blowing through the SWRPG community! I think this whole discussion about the "community" is long overdue...

---- To Nealos ----


When did all this get so complicated? Remember the days when you and I would swap HTML tricks and tips, and the only ones who knew about our website was each other and a few friends? God, that was fun back then. Now, I feels like a damned mess to me.

Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, the old days of swapping tips and helping each other (and others) out with code and ideas are sorely missed. Like you said, somehow it just got so complicated...

---- To Everyone ----

Please consider my hat thrown firmly into the ring. I want to help get StarWars-RPG.Net back up on it's feet in whatever manner we all decide is best. I'm sure I could sqeeze in at least a couple of hours of effort a week on this. After all, it's the least I can do for the community (well, that and updating my own site! :D ).

Deano
28 April 2002, 09:53 AM
Nealos, you have my sword. I will spend as much time as I can supporting the site in addition to my other sites...

As for what is needed....well, getting it back to where it was would be the first step in my mind, followed by the plans to rotate the featured link.

After that its opening the Journal up for submissions of whatever kind. Maybe looking at doing community based projects, eg a couple of different people come together to address a particular issues, e.g. an article on how to create an NPC.

Then I think you (Nealos) should sort out the Kurlnova sector site because its damn fine!

I'll try and think of some more things to add.

Deano

Sil7
28 April 2002, 09:54 AM
Nealos, I'm sorry, I took your comment in the wrong spirit. I generaly give that phrase negative connotations, and I now see that that was not your intent.

I've not been around long, and this was the first site I found. So, I may not have the correct prespective on this matter. I think I'm gonna be quiet now....

Sil7

BRodgers
28 April 2002, 10:43 AM
Always got your back Nealos, you are one of the reasons the Raptor Squad Website exists...I got a lot of inspiration from ya in the early days, I'm just enjoying be able to help ya out now..

Speaking of which, I can generally offer several hours per week. This is of course depending on what ya need done (amd my personal life which has calmed down considerably), but generally I have a few nights a week completely free. Now, of course, those that know me know my strong point has always been in the art department. That is not to say that I can't create or do some solid write ups as well, (see the Crimson Mask and The Legend of Terminus in the MISC section on the RS website for refrence). So basically I can offer my art and my creativity.

I of course know the fundamentals of HTML (again see the RS site..thats all me)...so basically what Im saying is whatever ya need....I'll hereby volunteer as "house artist" as the case may be, but I know there are a tons of other talented individuals out there who could and should volunteer their artistic talents as well. Guess we'll see just how concerned about the community they really are.

Other than that, just name what you need. I do think the online journal should be kept up..with some new write ups, and artwork it could once again be a very smooth addition to StarWars-RPG.Net. In addition I think I could tap my Gm and some players to submit some material.

Hope this generates some interest for ya:D

Moridin
28 April 2002, 11:20 AM
I just want to say a couple of things here.

First of all, me, Nealos, and Armage are all on good terms, so I don't want anyone worrying about some massive war breaking out between the two sites or anything. We had, for a long time back before we even launched SWRPGNetwork, discussed some kind of team effort or something, but then Nealos got busy with Real Life and we didn't want to wait around anymore. It's unfortunate that we never got anything off the ground, but I don't want people thinking we spit in Tim's eye and told him to go frell himself.

Regarding the Holonet moving, well, all I can say is that Armage always has and always will own the Holonet; he paid for the software, he paid for the server, he does all the work, and he can do with it what he pleases. He chose to join it to SWRPGNetwork, and that's that. This move has done nothing but improve things on the Holonet. The community is larger than ever, and we have lots of new blood as well as the old guard. I don't much care for the notion that moving the Holonet tore apart the community, when every indication I've seen is that the community has grown by leaps and bounds as a result of it.

I'm not going to apologize for our success here, because it's taken us massive amounts of time, effort, and money to get as far as we have. I'm sorry that SW-RPG.Net has been slow lately, but I completely disagree with the idea that it's dead, and that our success is what killed it. It is NOT dead, just sleeping. ;) I have always wanted to deliver what people requested of me, and I think that for the most part I've at least put forth the effort to do so, even if i haven't always succeeded.

But, hey, I just want to give people what they want. I see Chris, Deano, and others acting like they're taking up the banner for another Crusade, and while I realize that some of it is intended to be humorous, it makes me wonder whether or not members of the community see me and Armage as some sort of evil tyrants out to ruin the community...every indicator I've seen points to the community being larger than every, now, but what do I know?

Just for everyone's information, me, Armage, and Nealos are talking about the whole deal, and I can gurantee you that SOMETHING good will come out of it.

The Admiral
28 April 2002, 12:47 PM
I see Chris, Deano, and others acting like they're taking up the banner for another Crusade
Right idea, wrong Crusade. The Network isn't the enemy, entropy is.

"Do you know how embarrassing it is to have your beeper go off during a late night screening of Return of the Jedi? What's so frelling urgent I have to miss Jah Yowza?"
"it's SWRPG.Net, she's, well, see for yourself."
"Damn! What happened to that content?"
"There were other pressing cases, we have to prioritize!"
"And let SWRPG.Net die? Not on my watch damnit! Give me 15ccs of support right now, and prepare the crash team."
"Yessir!"
"She's not holding, what's her condition?"
"Her Content level is down to practically zero, the Real Life Issues monitor is almost off the chart!"
"There's not much we can hope to do with Real Life Issues, we need a massive, continuous Content injection right now, all we can do is hope the Real Life eases up when she's more stable. How are we for Artwork?"
"We have plenty of artwork, but, we're all out of content! The stocks are gone!"
"Damn! What Content type is she?"
"A+!"
"Then we're compatible!"
"What do you mean?!"
"We need content, and we need it now! I have spare content, prepare a transfusion, immediately!"
"Surely you can't be serious!?"
"Deadly serious, and don't call me Shirley,,,"

Nealos
28 April 2002, 12:55 PM
I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate everyone's words of interest in this topic. I encourage everyone to not "pick sides." Part of being a community is forgiveness and learning from mistakes.

It looks like nobody is going to let starwars-rpg.net slip into obscurity, at least not without putting up a hell of fight. That and some good staff with a little time to offer may be all it needs.

I for one have grown tired of beind the one responsible for everything there. I am tired of taking the charge and the heat when things get messed up. I took that on myself, trying to spearhead the efforts. Ryan and Chris are supportive but have as little time as I do to pitch in to the mix lately. It should be run more by the community. I'll know that's achieved when my name and the domain name aren't mentioned in the same breath. I look forward to that day, the day I become another contributor like everyone else - a member of the community again (I feel separate).

I've been talking over email with Armage and Moridin today. We're having a great conversation, getting some history out of the way and starting to hammer out some ideas. Nobody knows what the future holds for Starwars-rpg.net, but this much is for sure...there's a lot of dedicated and capable people wanting to make something happen, and that's a great start to something cool. :)

To keep this all in perspective, let's talk about what's really important.

1. Being good to each other.
2. Having fun.
3. Being creative.

These are more important than anything else anyone has to say about any of this. It sounds deceptively simple, but sometimes we all take ourselves and what we're doing really seriously. For God's sake, this is a game, and one that's designed to let friends get together and enjoy a good time together. Isn't it interesting how far it's gotten from that?

If you have an idea or comment on how Starwars-rpg.net should or could proceed, speak up. Add to this thread or start another. Think of starwars-rpg.net as a domain that you own and are responsible for, because it is exactly that - and anyone is free to quote me on that. I'm just another person here, wanting to see it do something cool again, just like everyone else. I'm one of you.

There's as much opportunity here as we choose to manufacture through togetherness.

StClair
28 April 2002, 01:08 PM
I apologize for my earlier bout of crankiness. It was not productive.

Nealos
28 April 2002, 01:19 PM
It's all good in the hood, homey. (still laughing from the Admiral's post)

BRodgers
28 April 2002, 01:36 PM
Thats pretty darn funny Admiral...

Well I glad we are at the point we are at now, and heck, it took us less than a day to do so!

That being said...whats next? I dont want this momentum to die , I think we need to keep this thread or others like it going and productive...complacency is our enemy and I refuse to let it win.

The Admiral
28 April 2002, 01:50 PM
Exactly how the Journal is assembled, the way the entire entity functions, might need looking at. I suspect one of the reasons why submissions tailed off is that an awful lot of people find it much harder to have a synapse twitch that make's 'em think 'Hey, I'll put this in the Journal' compared to how easilly a synapse can fire saying 'Hey, I'll put this on my site.'

Also, there's always going to be the perception that if you have something to post, you can choose either the Journal, or the HoloNet.
As far as I'm aware, no-one's ever had a problem with material being posted to both, I've certainly seen prospective Journal entrys being posted here for comment, even competition entries. Still, it may just be me, but that impression seems to be there.

With the HoloNet you get a much more immediate reaction, which is certainly very tempting. To be blunt, one of the reasons people post stuff is so they can see lots of other people ooh and aah over it, the immediacy of that isn't so readily apparent with the Journal, despite have the Journal forums designed for just that.

What I'd hope will happen is the Journal can pull together a loose staff, with disparate skills, so that if somone submits an entry, the artists can go off and illustrate it, the stats experts can tweak their stats, the code guys can play with funky code, and the editors can rework the text, finally presenting a conglomerate piece of work high in quality, immediately useful, with eye-candy to boot. That's really what makes the Journal different from the HoloNet; quality. Not in terms of the presented material, but with editting, layouts, proof-reading etc, a Journal Article will generally be more polished than a HoloNet thread. Not to do the HoloNet down, of course, I love the HoloNet, partly because you get lots of stuff in their unvarnished rough and ready format. But this is why we can't let the Journal die, they complement each other, they don't compete.

I dunno if it'd help, but it might be an idea to have Kelly pester those of us willing to volunteer. After all, what's a Journal Article writer without an irate editor chasing them up for their work? ;)

I, for one, take one step forward, come pester! I frequently forget what month it is, but keep pestering me, and I'll keep sending stuff in!

Pester! Pester! Go on I dare ya! :D

Chris Curtis
28 April 2002, 01:55 PM
Excellent, we have dialog going! As Bob said, let's not let this die down; we've got to keep the momentum up. So, as Nealos has asked a couple of times so far:

What should StarWars-RPG.Net focus on so that we can have an even better community?

1. I think it goes without saying that people want the Online Journal back up and running. What we have to think about, though, is how do we want to bring it back? Do we want it just like it was, with submissions for a couple of months and then an editor (or more than one) putting those submissions together into some sort of issue?

Perhaps we can somehow make it more "interactive". The whole submit-something-and-wait-for-the-next-issue thing just seems really passive to me. Surely (er, "Shirley"?) there's got to be a way to make it more active and more community driven. Ideas??

2. It also occurs to me that the SWRPG Artists Guild that was discussed a little while ago would be a fantastic resource that StarWars-RPG.Net could offer to the community. Not only could they probably help supply artwork for the Online Journal, but if we could have some sort of semi-automated request system along with the gallery and other features that were talked about, then the SAG would be an extremely useful resource.

3. I'm going to go a bit out on a limb here since I haven't spoken to them about this, but I doubt either Dean or Ben would be opposed to trying to somehow tie the Star Wars RPG Reviewed Sites and Link Archive a bit more closely with the main site. Basically, somehow integrate them more so that they aren't so much stand-alone hosted sites, but more services that StarWars-RPG.Net offers. I don't know exactly to what extent, but it's certainly worth talking about.


So, what ideas does everyone else have for what StarWars-RPG.Net could focus on? I think we can all agree that SWRPGNetwork is doing a fine job with news coverage, stat submissions, and quite a bit of original content. What else does the community need or want? Let's hear what everyone else has to say.

BRodgers
28 April 2002, 02:24 PM
I think Chris hit the nail on the head with a few items.

I, myself, considered mentioning the StarWars Artist Guild idea as something that could be hosted on starwars-rpg.Net. It would be a perfect place for it and I think give the site a shot in the arm to boot. Being someone who was initialy spearheading the movement in the first place several weeks ago, I think having Starwars-rpg.Net host a SAG would just be a logical complement. I know someone, I beleive DGSwenson, mentioned he spoke to Moridrin aobut it, but I have yet to see anything being nailed down and this is something that would genuinely generate interest on starwars-rpg.net. As long as no one has officially started oanything and no one inthe community minds, I vote that we start the SAG up on starwars-RPG.Net.



Chris also mentiond integrating the Link Archive and Reviewed Sites...tremendous idea! One of the great things about Starwar-rpg.net used to be it's link page..I mean, it was THE place to have oyur link listed. So integrating the valuable Archive now is a fine idea...indeed, rather than stand alone sites these are valuable resources that can be integrated into the fold.

What abou additional site hosting? In addition to the fine sites Starwars-Rpg.Net is already hosting it might breath more life into the community if would-be webmasters were offered a spot to host their sites...maybe even give them a shot in the arm to increase the efforts on their own site.

And of course the featured site showcase needs to be updated, be we've already hit on that.:D

The Admiral
28 April 2002, 02:41 PM
I'd be a little wary of moving RS and LA 'closer', because it may appear (not to all of us here, obviously, but possibly to the 'punters') that in doing so, we're moving away from other sites. I think anything that could be taken as partisanship ought to be dealt with very carefully.

That said, SWRPG.net has always hosted sites under it's banner, whereas the Network will (presumably) continue to operate as flagship SWRPG site by just being itself.

The Net and the Network have always worked as a complimentary pair of sites, it's my impression that Tim is mainly disappointed that one or two projects never really made it off the drawing board, as much as he's frustrated by having that annoying RL stuff get in the way.

I'd think perhaps we need to be concentrating on fixing one 'problem' at a time, and IMHO, the Journal is what we should fix first.

I'm quite certain that everyone in the 'old school' will want to help. Be it to our eternal shame that we needed galvanising to throw our backs into it.

As to the SWAG (Sorry, but it's FAR better than SAG) I'd kinda always though the Net would be the best place. Got no problems with that.

Moridin
28 April 2002, 03:35 PM
For SWAG, you definitely want to get some people cranking our character portraits -- something along the lines of the articles in Gamer that is a page of nothing but PC portraits. I've got someone I can put you in touch with about that, too.

I've got some ideas for the Journal I'm going to run by Tim and Kelly, and then I'll post 'em here.

Armadious
28 April 2002, 03:46 PM
First off let me say that all this talk of when the Holonet was tied in with Starwars-rpg.net has brought up memories of some of the older color styles, (there was a gray, a beige and then a blue I think...) Anyway my first real exposure to other fans ideas was through Starwars-rpg.net and for that I say thank you to the founders and the contributors to that wonderful site. Now Swrpgnetwork is also a great site, not only does it allow me to keep track of what's up in the D20 world by providing reviews, and information on what is in new books etc. but it also has the holonet, and an occasional supplement or two.

I very much enjoy both sites, and for me they work well together (run for cover Armadious is going to use shoes as examples).

Swrpgnetwork feels like a new pair of shoes, in much the same way as the new movies, the NJO and D20. Shiny, interesting, the kind if thing you would walk into work wearing but may not fit quite right until it is worn in a little more.

Starwars-rpg.net on the other hand, is an old pair of shoes much the same way as the classic era movies, the Bantam books, and d6. These shoes may have a few holes now and then, but are the type you wear when going for your morning run and have been wearing for the last two years, they are conformable.

What I meant with those shoe analogies is that I like having access to both, and they go well together.

So let me just say that I am quite willing to throw in some time writing for Starwars-rpg.net, as well as the journal unfortunately I am about as good a programmer as I am speller (I can get by somewhat but am not very good).

The Adventure Journal, has always been a good resource so I would like to see that continue as a place of high quality work. More art is always welcome in that as well as anywhere else.

One of the reasons the holonet has been so neat is that a person does not have to worry about converting between systems when they submit something, so perhaps something like that would work - where you accepted system specific submissions instead of requiring people to work at converting to a system they do not truly understand.

More ideas include: Making a archive that would showcase the contest entries, and/or one that would showcase the "best of" threads form the Holonet (working with SWrpgNetwork of course).

Anyway those are my ideas and comments.

ij thompson
28 April 2002, 03:49 PM
Ah, it's been a great 24 hours, tracking this thread! :p

I'm really excited about the new movement happening here, I'd just thought I'd throw in my two bits regarding the new improved 'Net:

1. bring back the Journal
2. get SWAG off the ground (you're right Admiral, it is better than SAG!)
3. further integrate RS & LA
4. See about offering hosting

Most of you guys know me as a writer, primarily, and with that in mind I offer my services as writer of fiction, articles, editorials, and whatever else may come along (including general editing). In fact, I think it could be fun to contribute some 'sidebar fiction' to other people's sourcefiles.

Count me in!

Nealos
28 April 2002, 04:25 PM
Ok, just to organize some thoughts...

So far I'm hearing the following pieces being discussed:

1. Journal
2. SWAG
3. Links

My comments on these items:

1. The journal will definetly stay, in some form. The bottom line should be that members of the community are able to share their homebrew efforts with everyone else. Having a good mix of material in each issue is important, so we don't want to produce topical issues (which would wind up being galaxy guides...).

I have a content management system our company developed that would help in terms of entering the submissions into a pre-determined format. That would streamline the act of actually "webifying" the entries.

A suggested staff/workflow (warning - it's static):

a. two or more people whose sole job is to encourage and collect submissions all the time from the community.
b. collected submissions get sent to one of two editors (split up the work). these editors work together to edit all submissions then throw them into a pile called "ready to post."
c. a post editor can select submissions from the "ready to post" pile to build the next issue. They can peruse the pile to prepare well balanced issues.
d. The selected material and description of the order they should appear in can be sent to a final person, the one who enters all the text into the journal page template (either manually or via a content management system). the issue goes live, and voila.

The method described above would make the process smooth and scatter the workload pretty well. No single person would have a pile of stuff to do. As I'm thinking about all this just now, I think I was smart in bringing on Kelly St. Clair to help out with the Journal, but dumb in not bringing more people on to help HIM out.

As an aside, I owe Kelly an apology for keeping him in the dark while he was taking heat from the fans about the Journal being in limbo. Sorry Kelly, I guess I didn't know what to do about any of it.

I think the journal would gain a lot of interactivity if the issues came out and people could leave comments at and discuss each submission on the same page (like at the bottom). Just like it is on swrpgnetwork.com. I always wanted to add that feature since we started the journal.

It's my opinion that part of the journal's fun is anticipation - you know the journal is coming out next week, and can't wait to see what's in it! Then, when it comes out, everyone can swarm in there, read everything and post comments.

As a final journal note, I never meant for people to be between posting something on their own site OR the journal. In fact, just the opposite. One of the reasons I thought the Journal would attract a lot of fellow webmasters was because they could use the Journal as a place to post their new stuff since it has huge exposure, then at the end of their entry it would say, "Go to http://mystarwarsrpgwebsite.com to check this and other stuff out by me." This would benefit all webmasters of all swrpg sites by basically allowing them to use the Journal as a way to get their site and their stuff in front of the rest of the community.


2. In regards to SWAG, I dont' even really understand what this is, and I suspect there are many others like me. This is actually the first time I've heard of this.


3. In regards to links, all I know are three things... a) links were an exciting way for community members to add a little piece of themselves. Especially by allowing them to write their own descriptions, b) the gang over at the RS/LA sites have done a bang-up job fulfilling that need and c) this is another stellar example of what happened with the holonet.

You see, before anything started going on in terms of all the confusion, I thought it logical that the holonet and starwars-rpg.net completely combine together. Armage was reluctant because he said he didn't want the holonet to seem like it's pulling away from other sites - JUST like the Admiral just said in his last post above.

I find this interesting and have no idea where to go with it. On the one hand, it seems to make a pile of sense to me to take advantage of something like starwars-rpg.net, a property that already has a lot of recognition and visitors in terms of anything. On the flipside, I remember when the dunesea.com (anyone remember THAT site?) wanted me to bring the SWSRC on to their site and be their RPG dude or whatever. I said no, only because I wasn't sure how it would work out if I wound up not liking it. I was worried that if it didn't work out, it would get really messy. (heh - kind of like everything got anyway...)

Is that the problem? In the last two years, I've toyed around with the idea of blowing the doors open - literally publicly posting the FTP access information to the entire community and saying, "Load a file to the server and put a link to whatever you have on the front page of the site." Always thought that'd be a fascinating experiment, but I wanted to basically figure out how to make it clear that nobody was going to assert any sort of control over another. From the get go, Ryan, ChrisB., and myself agreed to only speak up and pull someone if they posted stuff like viruses, mp3's or porn - stuff that was basically illegal and/hurtful. Otherwise, we would act only as stewards, providing a place for anyone and everyone. I can't figure out if that worked out or not...

Sorry to ramble, but these are all important issues.

Let's get a list of things we're interested in covering. After that, it might be smart to break into groups - certain people responsible for a single idea - to figure out specifics. We could have a discussion about what each group came up with, sort of a presentation of it. All we'd need is a thread for it... just a thought on how to go about this organized. If we do this, we should publicize the crap out the whole thing so that anyone in the community that wants to help has a fair shot at doing so.

The Admiral
28 April 2002, 04:42 PM
Hmm, well, lesse;

1: If you're looking for guys to edit, consider me taking that one step forward. I can't code for love nor money, but I CAN edit.

2: SWAG is a concept a few of us have been kicking around the last weeks or so, basically a group of artists pooling their work into one site, with a gallery and a requets section. That's pretty much it, though there is a thread kicking around somewhere with lots more of the ideas floating around.

3: Well, er. Yes. Basically.

BRodgers
28 April 2002, 05:00 PM
Just to further elaborate on what the Admiral has already said about SWAG (and yes, it is a LOT better name Ben)...

In addition to being a gallery for SWRPG artists, it would offer other services as well (at least these were ideas I proposed a few weeks back). Such as:


Online tutorials, to help budding artists get better. These could involve raw techniques and computer coloring methods and whatnot.

Artist bios. I daresay a lot of SWRPG artists deserve at least a touch of the limelight.

Possibly a "featured artist of the month" showcase, showing off a certian artist's work and maybe featuring a Q& A or small article with that artist.

And of course the gallery, featuring submitted artwork from non guild members and guild members. This could also include the "Rogues Gallery" feature Moridrin mentioned earlier.

I think, and I think most agree with me, that this has the potential to be a important and useful resource if handled right. I dare say it could stand as, not so much a hosted site of Starwars-RPG.Net, but a "related resource" that one can find only on the page, much like the online journal as it were.

Just my two cents anyway as far as SWAG goes. Needless to say I'd be way interested in being involved with it's development and creation. Count me in to that definetely.

Chris Curtis
28 April 2002, 05:06 PM
1. A few minutes ago I sent off a message to all 3 (well, 4 is you count the "community" sub-list) of the major SWRPG Mailing Lists mentioning this thread and encouraging everyone to come read it and share their thoughts. Hopefully we'll get some more opinions in here.

2. As for the SWRPG Artists Guild, you can find the previous discussion about it here:
http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6495

3. Tim, your idea for the Online Journal project process looks pretty good. I think a good Content Management System (CMS) would be quite useful for the entire site. Not only would the Online Journal benefit from it, but, depending on how exactly your CMS works, it would also probably be quite useful for the SWAG (fine, have it your way, Ben! :) ).

4. I say we try to keep all the discussions public here in this thread (or other more specific threads in this forum). If we start trying to do private email discussions between ourselves, then we won't get the benefit of everyone else's view and feedback. Keeping it all in the open should let everyone make comments on ideas and hopefully we'll get some basics hammered out all the quicker.

Nealos
28 April 2002, 05:09 PM
Wow, that SWAG is a really great idea! I would love to see that!

Myself, I was thinking about doing something sort of similar, but for writing. Something like tutorials or articles about how to write cool homebrew this and that... Not that I'm any expert, but writing seems to be my best skill in terms of doing stuff for the game.

My gears are really grinding now. Some good ideas flowing here...everyone, go get your buddies and get 'em in here! Tell 'em Nealos sent you and he's STUPID PISSED! :D lol... I just want everyone to make sure they get a chance to throw in their two cents, that's all.

Nealos
28 April 2002, 05:29 PM
Incidentally, anyone who is interested can read about the content management system my partner and I developed at the following link:

http://essemble.com/products/cms.cfm

Tony J Case, Super Genius
28 April 2002, 05:46 PM
The simple solution? Tear down both web pages, and come join me under the Chaos Crew banner. :)

(Joke! Joke! I'm kidding! Sheesh. . . .)

I've been in this community for - hell, forever it seems, starting way back in 96 or 97. Over the years it's been interesting to see the community ebb and flow - I remember the glory days of Jae's list, when there were a hundred messages a day. Game ideas and characters flowed like water - you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting something new.

And then, things changed. Who knows why - people moved on, folks grew out of playing silly games - life just goes on. it's just the nature of the universe for entropy to take everything, eventually.

Of course WEG falling apart didn't help matters either.

I've seen good ideas come and go and come around again. The Gamemasters Emergency Airlock - anyone remember that? Great idea, had a strong community base to work from - it could have been a damn fine resource. So what happened? A lot of it was probably real life needs overtaking the project. It's tough to devote loads of time to something when there's no paycheck involved.

And of course - the all important need to feel good about oneself, to be the best, to be able to say "Look at me! I've got cool stuff." We all do this, it's just a natural part of being human. It's the drive that makes Star Trek fans tear down Star Wars and visa versa. Its why Playstation 2 owners loudly proclaim "PS2 R0><0r and the Gaycube SuX!"

It's a hard impulse to deny.

I don't like to admit it to myself, but in a way that's kind of why I don't submit as much as I might have been able to for the Adventure Journal or the Conversions page. Yes, a lot of it is the natural slothfulness and entropy that is inherent in every human - I'll freely admit that I'm just a lazy SOB at times, or I don't quite have as much time for frivolous activities as I'd like. But then there's always this tiny voice in the back of my head: "Hey, why are you submitting this here? You've got a perfectly good web page, put it up there instead!"

Wow - I just reread this whole damn thing. Man can I ramble on and on without saying much. Here, let me try and wrap this up -

Entropy and complacency are hard enemies to overcome. Often getting folks organized on the net is like herding cats. But whatever the future holds - well, I'll certainly try and pitch in where I can. Now, if your excuse me, I'm off to convert something like I promised Mordin I'd do.

darkweji
28 April 2002, 07:15 PM
Okay, I go out of town to catch the biggest annual rock music festival in the country and I come back to all of this. I'm not going to say much, mainly because I am still recovering from three days and three nights of non stop music and parties. Hell, I'll be honest enough to say that I only read the first half of the posts on this thread.

I'll be the first to say that I know I have no free time these days. I have no time to update DLOS, let alone work with starwars-rpg.net itself. I've even quit my online RPG group that I've been playing with for years. Between a full time job, managing another side webpage and juggling a social life in between... yeah... I just don't have the 20+ hours a week anymore.

As for the whole swrpgnetwork.com or the Armage/Moridin deal, I just have this to say: I believe they both knew what they were doing from the start and had it planned out. Does that bother me? Yes and no. Yes in that it rather put a damper on the time and effort Tim, Chris and I were tossing into starwars-rpg.net. No because I respect everyone's right to do their own thing, and they did it well and had the time, resources and connections to devote to the project. I admire and respect what the two of them have done, even if it might have been the final knife in starwars-rpg.net's back. To Armage and Moridin, I say a job well done my friends.

As for myself, I would like to continue contributing to the community. I feel that DLOS was a good part of the community but it always drained my time from starwars-rpg.net. It was always one or the other, I could never balance the two and be satisified with the work. Right now I'm at the same point as Tim (Nealos), ready to toss in the webmaster/admin towel and just go back to the basics - writing.

As for starwars-rpg.net, I stand by Nealos 100% and (as he knows) will do whatever I can to help bring it to a final permanent gateway or help appoint new staff members to take over. And for DLOS... that's still a decision I'm spending much time debating.

Talonne Hauk
28 April 2002, 09:18 PM
Okay, here's the perspective from a guy none of you know from Adam; I want to help. I don't code, I know nothing about networking, and I'm pretty rusty at sketching portraits. But when WEG lost its license, I was bummed. There was nothing out there to support Star Wars, as far as I knew. Now that I picked up WoTC's version, and started looking around and found this site, it's been a virtual panacea for many of the problems I've had in gaming. With that said, what one site can do, two can do better. I'm rolling up my sleeves. What do you need me to do?

Christo
28 April 2002, 10:51 PM
Well, I'm a lurker, but I've been around for a while, and just felt compelled to say something.

First off, I really enjoy both swrpgnetwork and starwars-rpg.net, they both have superb stuff. I liked the earlier shoe analogy, although I see it a bit different. I see swrpgnetwork as a place for semipro stats and background, developed by the staff (most of the content seems to be developed by the staff at least, correct me if I'm wrong). The Holonet is nice, but honestly, it's somewhat hard to wade through looking for adventure ideas or stats or such; it *is* a discussion board format, and by that nature it's a little less organized.

Starwars-rpg.net and the Journal, for me, seems to be a place for the community to submit stuff and get noticed in a nice, polished atmosphere, and still be easy to find once it's a lot older.

Maybe that didn't make sense, and I hope I didn't offend anyone, because I really enjoy both sites, but it sort of encapsulates my feelings.

Now, for starwars-rpg.net, I think a CMS would be fabulous. If you want something really loose, you could even have a CMS where people post submissions, which are then just reviewed/edited by an editor, and then immediately posted publicly. I'm sure you can find quite a few people willing to edit and proof stuff, so it can get out quickly. It's an idea, at least.

Also, I'd definitely be willing to help with the site. I can edit, proof, review, as well as code PHP fairly well (and I'm sure I'd submit stuff too). I can't do ASP to save myself, but I'm not too shabby at PHP and SQL stuff. So, I'm here, let me know what I can do.

-Christo

Nealos
28 April 2002, 10:57 PM
******** In response to Tony:

Great to "see" you! I haven't been by the chaos crew in ages, but trust you are doing well? Otherwise, glad to see you involved in swrpgnetwork.com. :)


******** In response to darkweji:

Hey Ryan. I'm feeling a little sheepish at this point. Seems like I stirred up quite the poop storm, eh? :)

Anyway, I know you suffer the same time constraints but remaining interest that I have. Simply put, we don't want to administrate some huge machine any more. We just want to write and have fun with what little time we can put into SW.

With that in mind, welcome to the discussion. I don't know about you, but I feel great. I already feel like a weight is sliding off me and I'm able to be another face in the crowd again. That's a nice feeling...

********* In response to Talonne Hauk:

#1: Welcome.

#2: The only skill needed to help out is genuine interest and the ability to work with others. :)

What do we need you to do? Just be here for now. This is a room where everyone is kind of milling around, talking all at once and being excited about this and that...it's a fun room, a loud room.

I'm already getting the sense that there will be several major issues to tackle - journal, hosting, the SWAG, whatever else we're thinking about - and everyone will sort of gravitate toward what they are most interested in and able to contribute to in terms of help and ideas.

A discussion focusing on the Journal has already started with Kelly St. Clair's assistance. It can be found at http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?threadid=6727

Nealos
28 April 2002, 11:06 PM
Hi Christo! Welcome to the discussion. Glad to see your opinions and offer to help. Let's see where this all takes us... :)

GreenCape
29 April 2002, 02:18 AM
I remember the excitement of checking out the latest addition of the Journal. I haven't been in the community as long as some people, but i'd like to make up for it.
A lot of great ideas have already been put out here, si i won't repeat them all and bore everybody, i'll just say that i loved the monthly (or two, three, whatever) format (call me conservative, i guess), and i've got several large but unfinished projects in the works, and if there's anything i can do to help, i'd be glad to. (I just need somebody to pester me to get those projects done!) (of course, a little work-sharing wouldn't be missed :D )

Basically, i'd really like to help too.

Jedi_Staailis
29 April 2002, 06:34 AM
Wow, the things that happen when your internet goes down for a day... Anyway, I am excited as everyone else that StarWarsRPG.Net is making a comeback. Ever since the site redesign, I've been checking in a couple of times per week waiting for new material.

I always felt that StarWarsRPG.Net's biggest strength was the journal, and I hope to see that continue. If you're trying to avoid competition between the Holonet and the Journal, give holonet posters the option of putting a line in their signature that allows their stuff to be used in the Journal (with appropriate credit, of course). That way, homebrew material can be submitted to the Holonet for quick response (and perhaps improvement), but can also be taken for use in the Journal, where entries can be refined by editing, formatting, and perhaps some pics from SWAG.

Wuher
29 April 2002, 12:46 PM
I think the whole prospect is interesting, and am pondering options. When I first read the thread, I hadn't realized there were multiple pages, because I haven't visited the holonet in a fairly long time. I've put a considerable amount of thought into a CMS, and even started implementing one for swrpg.net a while back (FYI, swrpg.net is another half-dead site due to my own real life issues, not the same entity as sw-rpg.net ;p). I'll be posting more when time permits, I'm heading to work in a few minutes.

Chris Curtis
29 April 2002, 02:10 PM
Well, in the interest of trying to sum up some of what's been said, I'd like to talk about what features/services StarWars-RPG.Net could provide. From what people have said (and what I remember), here are the major features/services that people are talking about:

1. Online Journal: Obviously this it more or less the big one. Everyone wants it back and this is certainly one of the "must haves".

2. SWRPG Artists Guild: I thought it was a fantastic idea when it was proposed a couple of weeks ago, and I still think it is. It would be a great service to both the community, the Online Journal (assuming the SWAG artists helped with it -- which I'm sure they would), and the artists themselves. However, the SWAG could also be considered to fall into the category of...

3. Hosted Sites: Hosting other SWRPG sites has always been a major focus of StarWars-RPG.Net. Whatever form this takes in the future (see the other thread on the subject), it's certain to stick around in one form or the other.


But that really seems like the only ones people are talking about. It seems to me that the site really ought to be able to offer more than 2 or 3 features/services. So that got me started thinking about what other things would be really useful for the community as a whole. Then it hit me:

Community-wide Search Engine: Wouldn't it be fantastic if there could be a search engine that would let you search through a ton of SWRPG sites without having to wade through results from non-RPG SW sites, or even non-SW sites (as you get when using a regular search engine)? How useful would it be to have the ability to go to one place and do a search and then go from those results off to a host of other SWRPG sites that were relevant to whatever it was you were searching for?

If we could build/implement a search engine that spidered and indexed all the sites from, say, the Star Wars RPG Link Archive, then we'd have a truly massive index from which to work and the index would continue growing as the Link Archive grew.

Of course, such a thing would certainly be fairly technically challenging. I know I don't have the knowledge to be able to implement it. However, maybe one of you other people out there has some experience with building search engines (preferably those that search external sites, not just an internal search engine).

Anyway, let me know what you think. Also, chime in with your own ideas for possible features/services that the site could offer!

Thinithil
29 April 2002, 06:39 PM
I'm relatively new to the whole Internet SW scene myself-but the place I always check out is Net. I always checked in hoping for updates and never really gave up since the idea was completely sound. The journal was, of course the main reason. I even considered submitting (material that is, I have around 100 one or two page long plot synopsis and about a quarter of those converted into "chapters" three to twenty pages long) to the journal but always stopped just short wondering if maybe this was a place for people who really knew what they were doing...or for anybody who thought they had something to offer. After reading these posts I tend to believe the latter.

Network is something I found in lieu (did I spell that correctly? if i did, i'm impressed) of Net's dormancy and as a web-ameteur I find its size intimidating. (plus, give me d6) Still I check in now and then for the sense of community. Yes, a community exists here-and thrives. BUT, there is no reason Net shouldn't also exist and and both sites would do well, I'm sure! A community has more than one house within its borders and the SW galaxy is composed of more than a single planet.

These discussions are going to lead to a bigger, better, and more energized Net-and thus a bigger, better, and more energized community!

Win Twins!

PS-that SWAG idea seems like a real asset. but what's RS B)

Thinithil
29 April 2002, 06:42 PM
YOW-that search engine would be great.

But speaking of something that looks a time consuming project...

BRodgers
29 April 2002, 07:08 PM
Well, RS can be one of two things...either the "Reviewed Sites" page or "Raptor Squad" my own personal SWRPG page (PLUG, PLUG )...I urge you to check out both if you havent already.

Something else to consider if it hasn't been already. I think the SWAG should be developed at about the same time the Journal is, or at least some of it's finer points need to be finalized.

Why?

Simple. As has been stated the SWAG will help support the journal in the art department, and I think the next revitalized issue of the journal really needs to have a lot of "WOW" factor to make a positive impact...Kind of a "Check this out and wait fo rit to knock your socks off" element, which artwork tends to aid in.

That being said I think great content AND great art need to go in conjunction with each other to do this. I also think the Journal should have a "cover" as it were..simply to distinguish itself from other journals and to set a "theme" as it were..much like the SW Gamer did...which bring us to another idea....depending on the input of ideas and material,I think the journal may want to consider "themed" issues...again, much like SWGamer.. For example, have one issue be a "fringe" issue..another be a "jedi/Force" issue..you get the idea. And of course it may take a few month before this can happen, I understand that..I just think it's an idea that should be explored when enough material has been submitted.


These are minor considerations to be sure, but something I thought I would throw out there for people to consider..I mean, after all, thats what the point to all this is right?:D

Chris Curtis
29 April 2002, 07:38 PM
Very good points, Bob. I'd also like to encourage everyone who's checking out this thread to also go take a look at the thread over in the Online Journal forum. Moridin had a great post over there and brought up some very valid points regarding what might or might not get included in the Journal and how things might be worked. Just ideas and opinions, of course, but useful ones worth thinking about.

Regarding the search engine idea, I agree that it would be a lot of work... at least initially. However, once it was up and running, it ought to pretty much just run itself, sending out spiders and indexing sites on some sort of schedule. If no one else steps forward with some knowledge on the subject I'll probably have to try researching it myself. I'd definitely prefer some help with it, though. :D

Nealos
29 April 2002, 09:09 PM
You know Chris, you may or may not recall but my original intent when I put that search system on starwars-rpg.net was to ultimately make all the hosted sites searcheable. I like the idea of being able to search all SWRPG sites.

What's more, I can make that happen. After all, I have a team of enterprise-level developers available to me. :D

The first "big idea" I had for SW on the web (before starwars-rpg.net was even discussed as a concept among Chris B., Ryan and myself) was something I termed "mySWRPG." Basically, a portal where people can register for free and get a customizable interface that includes all sorts of crazy-cool stuff. Think of a customized interface that can serve as a personalized "swrpg web homepage" and even serve as a web-based GM screen. I won't pile on any detail here (it's complicated and I'm long-winded as it is...) but I see this concept as totally attainable in the near future by using the resources of my company.

Anyway, add a SWRPG Game Material Search Engine to the to-do list, as well as a membership directory. I'll have to see about the search system in terms of when (we're coming up on four giant projects at once) but I can generate a really neat membership directory pretty easily.

Note to everyone, including myself - To make all this happen easily, it'll be coded in a mix of Cold Fusion and Javascript. To enable that, I need to make space on the company server. Let me work on that starting right away... I'll keep ya'll posted.

Nazgul
30 April 2002, 05:12 AM
Hi, this is Nazgul.
I'm a first time caller and long time listener. ;)

I'll love to see the journal back online. I still check the site once a month or so to see if anything new has happened. The community search engine would be really great idea. I think you should keep the hosted sites, its one of those things which promotes the community feel of the site.

As to the amount of support I can provide, not much beyond "May the Force be with you." I've really missed the site, and I do think there is room for both sites to exist together. I can't really provide much help beyond that due to other projects which I'm currently invloved in.

Sorry to clog your thread, :)

Chris Curtis
30 April 2002, 05:54 AM
---- Regarding the Search System ----

Yes, I do remember the original intent of the Atomz search engine. In fact, that's what initially got me thinking about it. I thought, "wow, it sure would be cool if we could actually get that working so that it did search all the hosted sites!"

Then I thought some more, and with a puzzled expression on my face, I said, "Self, why would it have to only include the hosted sites? Wouldn't it be that much more useful if it could include other sites out there?"

Okay, humor aside, if you have the technical skills at your disposal to do this, Tim, then by all means take it and run with it. While I don't want you to be "abusing" your developers by making them work on a personal project, if you (and they) have no problem with it, then it's all cool. I'll still be willing to help where I can, but a full-fledged search engine is currently well beyond my meager knowledge...

---- Regarding a Membership Directory ----

I'm guessing that you're referring more to a "player registry" type thing? Somewhere that players and GMs can list themselves along with location and other pertinent details and then other players and GMs can go search through it and find people near them?

Presuming that's correct, then this is definitely something that the community has been wanting and asking for quite a bit recently. (I'm kind of surprised I didn't think of suggesting it here myself...) There do exist some player registries, but the ones I've seen have all been more general ones and it would be great to have a SWRPG specific version available.


So, we're getting some more ideas now for features and services that the site could offer the community. Any more suggestions out there?? C'mon people, speak up! ;)

BRodgers
30 April 2002, 07:12 AM
hey all,

I went ahead and started a new thread involving the SWAG . It's located here in the Starwars-Rpg.Net comments section.

Just thought it might help clear up this thread a little and organize things a little better.

Hope it helps.:D

Ghost In The Holocron
30 April 2002, 07:13 AM
Hello, all. Ghost here.

I've finally caught up with this thread and I don't know where to start, really -- I never thought it was like this out there in swrpg-webmaster land. Then again, that's probably just little old naive me.

It's interesting to learn some SWRPG lore from this thread, but most of all it's also very encouraging to see that things seem to be fine and positive at this point.

Were to begin?...

Well, StarWars-RPG.net and the Online Journal were among the first great sites I encountered when I made a much wanted shift from D&D to SW -- along with Moridin and Armage's pre-SWRPGNetwork sites, DLOS, and others.

It was mighty fine work I must say. And, Nealos, you and all the others involved did a great job on it, man! I actually still have copies of various Online Journal issues stored on my computer for reference.

The quality was above par and you and the others certainly deserve the respect of every SWRPGer out there who's ever been on the net. Personally, I feel the sweat and blood that you guys have put into it and SW-RPG.Net have never gone to waste -- even with the quiet in the recent months.

I am glad you are once more filled with an excitement of the same flavor and pitch as that of the old days. I think it would be wonderful to resurrect and re-define the Online Journal. I, like many others, feel that there is indeed enough room for both Net and Network out here.

For me, it's always a joy to find other people who share the same pursuits. Being a deeply involved SW fan in what can be called the Unknown Regions of the SWRPG galaxy, sites like the Net and the Network, and, of course, HoloNet are like oases in the desert. I still feel I owe you all bigtime for keeping the hobby interesting and fun -- this is one of the biggest reasons I'm contributing what I can to SWRPGNetwork. (That and, hey, I dream of being hired to wash Doug Chiang's brushes.)

When I hatched on the idea of doing "artwork" for SWRPG sites, the Network was the natural choice. Net was winding down at that point and I was using a good deal of Moridin and Armage's work for my own campaign. Other sites at that time seem to have had their "art departments" all nice and dandy with contributors and all -- like Chris' Servais, etc. And there was nothing at all on Network in terms of art. Great stats, some screen shots and the occasional LFL concept art, but no original art. So I decided to pitch in there. With the Online Journal's return on the horizon, I've been thinking about how I can help out with that as well.

So, if you'll have it, here's the offer:

Right now I'm happily neck-deep in various SWRPGNetwork projects, but I do have some time for the occasional contribution to something outside of the Network. How about cover art for the Online Journal once in a while? It'll be something different from what I currently do and I doubt if it'll clog up my workload. I do have a tendency to scream when that happens since I don't work well with too much pressure -- but I'm not screaming just yet. So, if you like the offer, I can deliver (specifically every other month or so). Of course, feel free to suggest something else or simply turn it down. No worries.

Oh, and, yes -- I'm keeping an eye out for the SWAG thing people keep referring to. I think it's a great idea -- as are all the ones being bantered about. More power to the community, I say!

E-mail or PM me for anything.

And, with that, I wish you guys all the best with the current developments!

Kinn Kundo
30 April 2002, 08:19 PM
Many of you will be surprised but what I would like to see is Kurlnova upgraded. Nealos, do you remember how I liked it ? It was never completed but I had done nearly every stats for d6 and even created homebrew stuff for it. If you want I could keep it alive with new submissions and completing the missing stats. I could even do some artwork for it.

Second thing, I remember an old star wars site which could be hosted by starwars-rpg.net: Yodaboys. In the last year, you were probably the only person who've been able to talk to him but he've done so great artwork for the community, including your Imperial Intelligence handbook (Yes, I remember it)

In short, you have my sword, my hand and the arm attached to it. Just say a word and I'll do everything I can

Nealos
30 April 2002, 10:40 PM
First, many thanks to Ghost for such gracious comments and compliments. I and others do everything we do for the online community because it's fun for us, not for accolades. Of course, appreciation is never turned down. :)

In regards to your offer, I think it'd be great! Head over to the discussion going on about the Journal and pitch in your offer (you'll see my post about description of suggested staff and you will see where you could step in) and any other comments/suggestions/questions in that thread (so that we're organized about it all). Here's a direct link:

http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?threadid=6727

Kinn! I am at once ashamed and glad to see you! Sorry for not returning your emails regarding your stats work for Kurlnova. Let's get that back on track soon - I definetly want to add your stats to the write-ups, but I just need some time to get on it. Email me direct at swsrc@starwars-rpg.net and we'll take it from there. :)

Funny you mention Yodaboy - I offered Darren hosting just a few months ago. I'll need to touch base with him, but I know he wants to do it. :)

FInally, thanks for your bid to help out. You may want to look at the Journal discussion (see link above) or simply start creating cool stuff to put in a future issue (or both?). Either way, thanks for pitching in in all ways. :)

Not that I'm done with this discussion, but just wanted to say - on behalf of Armage, Moridin, Ryan, Chris B., and myself...thanks everyone! :)