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View Full Version : The Sith may have been evil, but maybe they saved the Galaxy!?!?



Nazgul
29 April 2002, 09:49 AM
An odd little thought I have last night.

Ok, so the Sith were evil, the Palpatine created the most vile government the Galaxy has seen. Now suppose none of that happened. No Sith, No Empire, the Republic is as it was. Then the Yuuzhan Vong invaded.

Granted you'd have more Jedi, but only by a factor of ten, but there would be no large scale Military Infrastructure, no large scale military training programs, there would be no veterans with the type of training or expertise to really put up with this type of a threat.

Maybe the Sith did some good after all...

Nerpine the Verpine
29 April 2002, 10:02 AM
That Nazgul! ... Always stirring the pot:)

I think you're right though. I don't believe that Palpatine was trying to do the galaxy a favor out of the goodness of his heart. But he did do the galaxy a favor nonetheless.

Another point to consider is this. If the slow-moving bureaucratic goverment of the Old Rep had been in place during the Vong invasion, all the political infighting and grudges that we see from that era would also have been in place. They would not have trusted each other enough to work together and defend themselves, at least not in time. At least the New Rep has some history of cooperation against a common foe, and look at the problems they had anyway.:(

reliant
29 April 2002, 11:42 AM
Interesting point... I wonder what would have happened if the Vong had invaded while Palpy was still at the height of his power... My personal thought is that the empire would have kicked a$$ and taken names. Good old Palpy would have never let that many planets be lost...

Anyway, I tend to agree with you. Although evil, the dark lord of the sith may have set the stage for turning back the Vong tide.

Otonashi
29 April 2002, 11:45 AM
Oh the Sith did other things as well....
Unlike the Jedi, the Sith were able to preserve their teachings. Rule of two aside, both the Emperor and Vader trained creatures in the use of the force. The Emperor left behind many legacies in the form of hands, devotees, and monsters. The Emperor penned no less than three books on the study of the force. The emperor maintained extensive alchemical laboratories. I would imagine that it would be far easier to recreate the Sith Order than the Jedi Order. Skywalker was forced to recreate the Jedi order from almost nothing.

Reezen
29 April 2002, 01:06 PM
Just to throw in a few quick comments...

I don't think we can assume Palpatine is the only person to ever have aspirations for the throne. There's no way of telling who might have been Chancellor in the Old Republic and what their agenda might have been. And you cannot immediately assume the Old Republic would crumble. A foreign invader such as the Vong would be just what the Senate needed to come together. To this point in TPM, he's so effective because no one suspects him. Alien invaders in worldships tend to fall under a different classification. I think the Vong would make significant headway in an invasion of the Old Republic, but their success can never be guaranteed.

Also, the same applies to the Imperials - from what little we've seen they are commanded from the top - while there are bound to be military strategists in the ranks of Captains, the majority could be like Needa. "The freighter just can't disappear. Oh well, time to get choked from afar." You don't know what the Imperials plans could be - if they use the Death Star on captured Vong planets... well that's still less resources for the Imperials and a minor effect on the Vong.

But I could be wrong :)

Sominus
29 April 2002, 07:04 PM
I agree that the Empire allowed for preparation for the Vong invasion. I wouldn't be surprised if Palpatine saw this possibility in the future and was preparing for the invasion himself. A Death Star could do a lot of damage to some worldships.

To take this a step further...I think it would be an interesting idea to see the surviving Sith ally themselves with the Jedi to stop the invasion. After all, the Vong threaten their way of life as well as those of the Jedi. Plus the Sith know the Jedi and how to fight them, but the Vong is a variable. The would have more difficulty rousting the galaxy from them than from the Jedi. I believe the last Sith student is Lumiya, a former Emperor's Hand and Sith student. She was instructing Carnor Jax before he was killed by Kir Kanos. I think it would be facinating to have her offer help to the New Republic, while at the same time recruit a new apprentice, possibly Jaina Solo, who is already distraught over her missing brother...

cwandell
30 April 2002, 02:43 AM
Question, maybe the sith saved the galaxy. But maybe they also were condemning it. Think about Sith Alchemy for a second, then Think about the Yuuzhan Vong Shapers. I'm not sure about the shapers (not very far into the series yet) but you have to admit that the basic concept of altering a creature then bending it to your will is the same. Could the Sith have intended to help the Vong?

wolverine
30 April 2002, 03:09 AM
One of the things i was looking at was just that, the similarity between the vong's shapers and sith alchemy. Who's to say, that the whole vong culture did not evolve around a sith who somehow made his way to wher ethe vong were?,,,,

cwandell
30 April 2002, 09:00 AM
Good point, thinking about it didn't the sith originally accept those Darksiders as Gods? and from there the sith empire grew. However in this case, the Vong can't use the force but they undoubtable would accept the Darksider as a God. Leading to a culture of non-force users who are very feirce fighters, and destructvie, distrusting of Technology (as the Sith Empire only used Tech were it absolutely needed to if you noticed that) and various other traits would be passed on.

Sominus
1 May 2002, 11:26 AM
interesting...however I wonder if the Sith would actually work with the Vong. They may be allies of a sense, but I think that the Sith would eventually turn on the Vong. After some thought I now believe that the Sith's hatred of the Jedi would give them some incentive to work with the Vong, but they are possibly a greater threat to the Sith than the Jedi. Although the ancient Sith did make great use of Sith alchemy, it is not as pervasive in the new Sith. Plus the Vong are not affected by the Force, so cannot be controlled by it. If anything I now believe that the Sith might ally themselves with the Vong temporarily, but only in that it would allow them to destroy the Jedi more effectively. I still think it would be interesting to see a Jedi-Sith collaboration against the threat of the Vong.

cwandell
1 May 2002, 11:38 AM
The Vong use Telepathy which is part of the force. That says that although they are like hutts and Very resistant to its effects they are still influenced by it. Also Anakin could sense the Vong through his lightsaber after he used that peice of glowing plant as a crysal, which would further suggest that they are only Severly resistant to the force. I'm not sure but its posible that the Sith could have done that as well. I don't know it could just be that i'm thinking of something else, but i recall the Sith creating creatures that weren't influenced by the force. This could have been a step further. Also i don't mean the New generation of Sith i mean the Older generations. 4000+ years ago. Which would have given them time to make it through the unknown space between galaxies and make contact with the Vong also wage a few wars most likely.

Otonashi
1 May 2002, 11:49 AM
I posed the Sith / Vong question in the rants and raves section a while back when somebody had tied the Gungons and the Vong together. I thought that it was quite possible that the Sith created the Vong. Both groups have a pension for altering living creatures to suit their needs, and they both hate the Jedi. If the Sith wanted to use the Vong as a weapon against the Jedi, dampening their presence in the force is a great defense. Then to keep them under control, they denied them technology. Perhaps it was just one Sith trying to do this and he died before his plan could come full circle, allowing this new species to develop on their own with only the memory of an ancient Sith to guide them.

reliant
1 May 2002, 11:53 AM
Ah, but if I remember correctly the Vong didn't even know anything about the Jedi until AFTER they started the invasion. If the Sith had anything to do with the Vong you would think that they would know something more about the Jedi than they do.

Unless you're right about it being so long ago that they all forgot... :raised:

cwandell
1 May 2002, 12:58 PM
not nesciarily, They wouldn't have had to know about the Jedi because ALOT of Sith believed the Old Republic to be a myth until a certain Scouting Vessel came across the Sith Empire. Also not all Vong creatures are without the force, as i mentioned before the yammosks appear to have Projective Telepathy at the very least if not Receptive Telepathy. Both of which are high level Force powers in SWD6. Most of them would appear to be without the force but as i said before its still in em just that they are designed to not be detected easily.

As i recall the Sith were attempting to find out how to be immortal. If they seceeded in this before they left. Well, the sith could still be alive that started the Vong and prehaps one or maybe all their gods are Sith. Doing the same thing that they did to the Sith Species and seeking revenge for the defeat they suffered when their great empire fell.

VixenofVenus
1 May 2002, 02:11 PM
Maybe I haven't read enough NJO stuff ... but I thought there was only about 100-200 Jedi (and over 80% of those not even Knights) at the time of the YV invasion ...

So with the 10,000 Jedi at the time of E1 ... wouldn't that be a factor of 100 or more, and not a factor of 10?


Besides, even with no Palpy pulling the hidden strings, I think GL has been trying to get at the fact that the Republic has gotten stagnant and needed a dramatic 'cleansing' of sorts ... and GL has said as much that he believes most democracies are dictatorships in disguise (but he doesn't like to talk politics).

Anyway, I do agree that the Jedi and the Republic (or whatever was left of it) would not have been as ready for the Vong ... even with more Jedi numbers.

But, the NRepublic wasn't really all that ready anyway, were they?! ...

Nazgul
2 May 2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by VixenofVenus
So with the 10,000 Jedi at the time of E1 ... wouldn't that be a factor of 100 or more, and not a factor of 10?


Yeah, I made a typo. (Thanks for catching that one, and I agree that the Jedi and the Republic would have been caught with their pants down).

As we recently found out the Vong really don't use telepathy, for coordinating there attacks. It was the Yammosk sending messages through gravity waves. Also for the Vilips, it could be telepath, but its a technology we don't know that much about. Maybe they're using something similar to hyperwaves.

I wasn't suggesting that the Republic would ultimated by defeated, but they would have a substantially harder time, since there was no infrastructure in place. Yeah they could have been untiled, but it takes a little time to build an army. And the state of the Republic's military technology didn't really change until Palpatine started playing around.

And there wouldn't be a clone army in existance without Tyrannus and Sidious playing with people's agendas and forming the speratist movement.

I don't beleive the Sith had anything to do with creating the Vong. Star by Star has explained a bunch of their history, and it takes a long time to travel between the galaxies. :)

Grim Fantango
2 May 2002, 06:38 AM
Well, it is possible that the sith traveled to another galaxy, unleashed their fury on some poor innocent creatures, and made them to be monsters designed to kill off the jedi, but there are fundimental problems with this thoery...

1. Lightsabers - machines, abominations to the Vong

2. The Sith - The Gods were Y. Vong, or so it was implied, not human

3 The Time Factor - Only 4000 years from the time of Sith to the NJO, and the vong were suppose to have been traveling for "thousands" of years

4. Conflict of interest - the sith used machines in their everyday lives, why create a species to destroy what they used the most next to the force

5. The Force Factor - The used the force to dominate "lesser" beings, by making the Vong almost immune to the force, they eliminate their only advantage over them

Now, Reasons that the Sith could have created them...

1. Sith pride - the sith loved domination, so making a species after themselves would have fit in with thier ego

2. The language used by the Vong is similar to a language used by some tribe on some planet in the SW galaxy, it was researched, but no links were found, but this does not rule out the possibility the sith took them to another galaxy, modded 'em to their own twisted will, and the set them loose

3. The sith who possibly did this could have done it alone, thinking that the republic had wiped out all his or her comrads, so the sith trained the vong to hate machines so they would inflict the siths ultimate revenge on the republic even after the sith died

4. The Vong called the Sith thier supposed allies when they learned they were jedi's enemies, but they couldn't use them cause they were all dead, this coould have been some inborn trait to treat the jedi immediately as enemies, and the sith as friends

sop, there you have it, the pro's and con's of Sith created Y. Vong...

beyond hope
26 May 2002, 11:22 AM
Did the Sith do everyone a favor?

You're looking at the military produced by decades of civil war without looking at what that military was doing. Imperial ships conducted routine "suppressions" of uprisings... so frequently that the total destruction of a planet from orbit had a name ("Base-Delta-Zero.") I have the feeling we'll see this graphically illustrated or at least referred to in Episode III. Those planets the Empire attacked no doubt could have been useful to the New Republic in later repelling the Vong invasion. Plus look at every country that's been through a World War: a period of economic depression inevitably follows, as resources are poured into the task of rebuilding what was destroyed. You can *still* see the effects of World War 2 today, and that's 57 years later. The scale of the Star Wars galaxy is a lot bigger, but the scale of the destruction was also much broader.

Aside from that, these posts all seem to imply a defenseless Republic: that's not the case. First, you have the various merchant guilds and their private armies. Imagine the reaction of the Vong to the Trade Federation's droid army... I've only read one book but I get the impression that it would be a Vong nightmare come to life. The implication of it is clear, too: why would the Trade Federation have a droid army if they didn't have armed opponents? It would be a waste of resources, and money and resources are what the Trade Federation is all about. Aside from Palpatine's personal connection, Naboo was picked BECAUSE it had no standing army. I'd go out on a limb to suggest that Palpatine might not even be a native of Naboo, and might have settled there to become their ambassador seeing the potential to further his schemes. So the various Republic members do have armies, we just don't see this explicitly stated. The Vong also seem to regard Jedi as a pretty significant threat as well, so much so that in the book I read they were trying hard to kill all they encountered or damage their creditability. Having several thousand opposing them would no doubt make the Vong a *lot* more nervous.

Darth Jerrod
29 May 2002, 08:14 AM
Yes the Trade Federation and the others like the commerce guild all had armies.

But not a unified force.

SPOILERS BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!













It took a certain someone, namely the sith, to get them too work together.

The Republic was endlessly debating the creation of a military to deal with sepratists. And they did not know that they were forming an army. There might have been small skirmishes, but no major battles like the ones we have seen in Episode II.

Getting these factions to work together only helped solidify the emergency powers act and allowed Palpatine too grab a ready made clone army to fight the sepratists. In time this would serve him in the future.

In the NJO timeline, it seemed like the New Republic (and I think by now you would want to ditch the New in thier title, it might make them sound less or I dont know... New?) was destined to fall to the same bickering the nearly toppled the Republic.

In my NJO game I am running the players have run across a group actually building a droid army to not only help stop the Vong but further the goals of a tainted Jedi