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VixenofVenus
30 April 2002, 10:45 AM
Ok, I know I haven't been on the boards in a while, and this will prolly be the only time for a long time ... but I was just talking about this with some RL friends, and I wanted to know your opinions!



Ok, we all know the problems of TPM (poor dialogue, poor acting on the part of Jake Lloyd, too much Jar Jar, etc) .... but I realized there is just one simple thing that Ep1 was lacking that the other trilogy had, that would have made Ep1 SO MUCH BETTER: Dialogue during the final battle between Maul and the Jedi!

Examples:

1. We have the Obi vs Vader duel in ANH where we get classic dialogue such as "When I left you I was but a learner, now I am the master!" and "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"

2. During the Luke vs Vader duel in ESB where we get classic dialogue such as "Impressive, most Impressive" and "You'll find I'm full of surprises" and of course at the end the revelation of genetic ... er gigantic proportions.

3. And of course during the classic confrontation between Luke, the Emperor, and Vader where we get so many lines worth quoting I just now direct you to fast forward your video tapes to the appropriate spot and just watch the scene.


So ... why during the Ep1 Jedi battle is there NO DIALOGUE. Was GL on crack!? Thats what we love. I know Maul is a tight-lipped individual, but he should have taunted them, called them "Weakling Jedi" etc, and Obi should have definitely had some not so nice words after Qui-Gon went down, other than "Noooooooooooooooo!"

Now don't get me wrong ... I still love TPM alot, even with its faults ... maybe cause true fans can see past its faults and love it for what it should have been. But damnit ... we better get some good dialogue in the lightsaber duel at the end of Ep2!!!

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
30 April 2002, 11:41 AM
I see your point be having Maul talk and taunt Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as much as Vader/Luke and Obi-Wan did would have been a mistake.

The only two parts that Maul should have said something was right before the force field came down after he had killed Qui-Gon. And right before he thought he was going to win against Obi-Wan.

My own thoughts

1) "You're next little Padawan."
2) "It's a pity you Jedi are so easily killed or I would get more joy out of this."

And let us not forget the Kevin Smith Edition of TPM having Maul say "But, I'm a F****** Demon" right before falling down the shaft.

dgswensen
30 April 2002, 12:37 PM
I have to respectfully disagree. I think one of the coolest things about Maul is that he doesn't have much to say. The silence is why I love that moment in the Theed hangar when Maul appears and they start taking off their cloaks and getting ready to rumble. Maul doesn't have to point his finger and go "Ha ha ha! Now you die!" He knows why he's there. The Jedi know why he's there. What needs to be said?

I also love the scene in the power reactor -- when the red beams separate Qui-Gon and Darth Maul, Maul just paces back and forth with a little smirk on his face -- sure, he could spout a couple snappy one-liners, but he doesn't. Even after he kills Qui-Gon, he has that same little smirk on his face that says, "And now I'm going to kill you, too, Obi-Wan." He doesn't have to speak out loud -- his expression says it all.

As odd as it may seem, I think Maul's silence really establishes him as a character. The only time he speaks is to his Master. He has nothing to say to anyone else. (Which I also think illustrates his unswerving loyalty to Sidious.) He's not there to talk to the Jedi -- he's there to KILL them, no B.S, no grandstanding, just whap-kablooey.

I think a lot of hokey macho dialogue would have just undermined Maul's aura of menace.

madpoet
30 April 2002, 12:54 PM
I have to agree with dgswensen, Darth Maul just wasn't suited for witty repartee or snappy banter. He came across as much more menacing with his silence. He didn't need to make threats, he let his saber do the talking.

Additionally, the other big difference between the fight in TPM and the others you mentioned is obvious. In every other lightsaber battle, the combatants knew one another. The were either former master and pupil, or father and son. They actually had something to say to each other. How else would Darth Vader try and make Luke turn, if not by talking to him?

Darth Maul was perfect as the strong, silent type. That's probably the last thing I would have changed about TPM.

VixenofVenus
30 April 2002, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't say its the LAST thing I would change about Ep1, but I did definitely think the jedi battle was one of its strongest points.

However, I agree that Darth Maul was a strong silent type and his saber should have done more of the talking ... but even when Obi was hanging below the ledge, he should have had something menacing to say ... even about three more lines throughout the whole battle would have made it that much better.


But as one of my RL friends said, you really could lump this into the overall badly written dialogue of Ep1. But I think with only two weeks left til Ep2, I've been examining the problems of Ep1 more and more to see if they really don't reappear in Ep1.

For instance, if there is still just a lousy silence between the Jedi fighting at the end of Ep2, then it wasn't fixed.

But most of the problems of Ep1 have shown to have been fixed in the Ep2 trailers alone ... no more whiny Jake Lloyd, now the strong and dark Hayden Christensen. A lot less Jar Jar, although I liked Jar Jar. Jonathan Hales added to the writing credits for his Dialogue consulting. And from the Ep2 soundtrack ... I know the music is MUCH better than Ep1's music which was lacking in many areas that made the originals so much better.



But anyway ... thx for the feedback guys. Nice ta see ya Frobi! :p

Talonne Hauk
30 April 2002, 02:26 PM
I'm with Vixen on this one. But I think in our culture there's been a shift in attitude about trash talking. Back when the first trilogy was made, trash talking was still a novelty. Now, 20+ years later, just the opposite is true. Perhaps it's better that Maul didn't talk. But more dialogue from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan wouldn't have hurt. Especially because they were curious as to where Maul came from.

horn1974
1 May 2002, 03:10 AM
it was called the PHANTOM menace 4 a reason mauls silence was meant to help convey this.+do we realy want MrLucas to rehash all of dialouge &villians weve seen b4.on the jar jar issue all i can say is kids lovem.if the sw movies r anything they r layered so evrybody will get something out of it.my only problem w him was the amount of screentime.final thought tpm is misunderstood and will be given its due in time.

VixenofVenus
1 May 2002, 09:47 AM
Ok ... everyone has grown deaf in my absence from the holonet so I will reiterate what I said in a louder voice:

I LIKE THAT MAUL DOESN'T TALK ... BUT WHY DO OBI-WAN AND QUI-GON HAVE TO BE SILENT AS WELL!!


One or two lines more from Maul ... just simple taunting ... would be nice ... but not absolutely needed ... but Obi and Qui-Gon should have said SOMETHING!

/rant off

Thats all I'm gonna say 'bout that (Gump Voice)

dgswensen
1 May 2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by VixenofVenus
I LIKE THAT MAUL DOESN'T TALK ... BUT WHY DO OBI-WAN AND QUI-GON HAVE TO BE SILENT AS WELL!!
Jeez... why do you have such a huge problem with Maul not talking? He's not supposed to talk for crying out loud... :D

Sorry, just kidding.

I see what you mean, though. Sorry I didn't seem to catch your point before. While I don't OBJECT to the idea of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan talking or taunting during the final battle, it does seem to be in character for them -- all through the movie, when they are fighting, they work in perfect, silent synergy with one another. Practically the only time they speak is when Obi-Wan says "Master! Destroyers!" because Qui-Gon's back is turned.

I especially love the moment in the final battle where Obi-Wan tries to fake Darth Maul out, and Qui-Gon lunges in for the kill. You get the feeling that they really have fighting together down to a science, so much so that they don't have to speak.

In other words, I think it could work either way.

Donovan Morningfire
1 May 2002, 12:26 PM
(Double post)

Donovan Morningfire
1 May 2002, 12:26 PM
I myself liked the fact that there wasn't all kinds of banter in the Final Duel. It was supposed to be a somber, serious matter, and the lack of witicisms reflected that beautifully.

Were some of the dialogue bits that Maul was supposed to have cool? Yes, but Maul for the most part worked without them. (Admittedly, I do plan on using some Maul's cut lines as dialogue for a Dark Side Warrior in an upcoming fan-fic, but that's another matter.)

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were accustomed to working on the same page, and thus their moves complemented each other well. (In game terms, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon worked to flank Maul as much as possible, giving each of them a +2 to attack rolls.) QG and OW worked together fluidly and almost flawlessly, which just underscores how deadly Maul was.
Besides, if they spoke, it would have broadcast what they were planning to Maul, unless they worked out a series of code phrases. But since telepathy is an aspect of the Force, the two could have been sending mental signals to the other. (Perhaps akin to the Battle Meld trick from the NJOSB.)

BrianDavion
1 May 2002, 01:01 PM
another factor you have to consider in the maul talking or not aspect is the RELATIONSHIP Maul has to the good guys compared to Vader.. or more to the point, total lack of one..

to Maul, Qui-Gon and OBi-wan wheren't anyone special. they where just two out of 10,000 to him..
Vader on the other hand.. he KNEW his enemy, there was a personal touch stone there with him.

Vader I think was also trying to convicne HIMSELF deep down as much as anything. I sort of wonder if deep buried down Anakin had an inferority complex...

VixenofVenus
1 May 2002, 02:12 PM
Brian ... more like ... all those years of Palpy and Everyone telling him that he might be the 'Chosen One' and all those years of believing he might oneday be the most powerful Jedi ever ... and in the end, he's still serving a 'Master'


Obi and Qui not talking actually bugs me ... I understand they can just sense eachother's movements and such ... but ... I'd still rather hear something between them ... even some funny witty banter about how easy it is to slice through the simple-minded battle droids.

Heck, Obi was mostly showing off his saberskills during the first 30min of the film.

Lokar
1 May 2002, 05:00 PM
Well, I suppose Maul could have said, "FREL" when Obi-Wan does the slice n' dice on him. :D

Just to throw in my own two centicredits. ;) :D :p

Donovan Morningfire
2 May 2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by VixenofVenus
Obi and Qui not talking actually bugs me ... I understand they can just sense eachother's movements and such ... but ... I'd still rather hear something between them ... even some funny witty banter about how easy it is to slice through the simple-minded battle droids.

Heck, Obi was mostly showing off his saberskills during the first 30min of the film.
In the case of Obi-Wan "showing off," that was pure Ewan McGregor, since Obi really didn't get any good lines, and it was the only outlet he had for characterization.

As for the not talking, it showed the Jedi were serious minded about the task at hand. Qui-Gon was a skilled fighter, and knew that any kind of distraction could be lethal, even against battle droids. Obi-Wan was the dutiful apprentice (every line he had ended with "yes, master.")

dgswensen
2 May 2002, 09:11 AM
Isn't showing off part and parcel of young Obi-Wan's character, though?

Yoda: "He is reckless!"
Obi-Wan: "So was I... if you remember..."

When I saw the first TPM trailers and Obi-Wan showboating, I was tickled pink. I kind of wish he would have been MORE reckless (if the Episode II trailers are any indication, Obi-Wan looks to be chilling out quite a bit, and Anakin's the showboat instead.)

VixenofVenus
2 May 2002, 11:42 AM
Well I think its ok that Obi is chilling out a bit more now (ep2) ... but he should have been more reckless in Ep1.

There was a scene that was cut out where Qui-Gon repremanded him because his lightsaber had been shorted out and would now need time to recharge (which is why obi was running through the Naboo forest and not deflecting the STAP blaster bolts himself). If you still can't place when this would have been, it is right when they meet Jar Jar.

Obi was reckless in Ep1, but not enough ...


Moving on to a related Obi-Wan rant...

We know that Obi-Wan is about 30 years old in Episode 2, because he was about 20 in Ep1 ... and Ep2 is about 10 years later ... so, we now have at least 30 years of aging that Obi has to go through between Ep2 and Ep4 ... so does that mean there will be at least a 10 year gap between Ep2 and Ep3?

That seems like an awfully long time between them (especially since I read the book and I can see alot more going on in that 10 years between Anakin and Padme than can be described in the 4-7 sentence scrolling text at the beginning of Ep3.

Anyone have a comment on this ... other than we'll probably see 10+ books that take place during this time period.

BrianDavion
2 May 2002, 11:47 AM
actually obi-wan in E1 was in his early 30s or late 20s according to most sources, I peg him to be 28. which places him at exactly 60 in ANH.

works quite nicely don't it?

VixenofVenus
2 May 2002, 02:32 PM
If that is correct ... then why was he so late in taking the trials ... in the Episode 2 Novel (possible spoiler ... maybe) Anakin feels left behind because so many Padawan's his age have already taken the trials ... and he is 20!! Why would a promising Jedi like Obi-Wan be a 25-30 yr old Padawan?!

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
2 May 2002, 02:51 PM
Don't forget the Obi-Wan spend a lot of time in the Agri-Corps due to his eagerness to become a Jedi. Qui-Gon found him while chasing his last Padawan who had turned to the Dark Side.

All of the ages that I have seen put Anakin at 40, Obi-Wan at 60, and the twins at 18 in ANH.

TPM is 32 years before ANH so that makes Anakin 8 (like the novel said) and Obi-Wan 28 (I'll be first to say that the ages for him don't look exactly right it TPM - he looked too young). Amidala's 14 (or so the novel said).

AotC is ten years after TPM so Anakin's 18, Obi-Wan's 38 and Amidala's 24.

40 - 18 = 22 then 22 - 18 = 4 so the next movie, if the twins are born in it, will be set 4 years after AotC making Anakin 22, Amidala 28, Obi-Wan 42 and the twins 0.

VixenofVenus
2 May 2002, 03:01 PM
according to the novelization then ... AotC is 12 years after TPM ... because it starts with Shimi recognizing Anakin's 20th BDay.

Lokar
2 May 2002, 03:30 PM
I thought Obi-wan was like 26 in TPM or so and that he was in his late 30s during AotC. Anakin, I think, is twenty which would put Amidala at 26.

Faraer
2 May 2002, 04:19 PM
Obi-Wan is officially 25 in 32 BBY.

Anakin's was 9 in 32 BBY (Jake Lloyd may have been 8), and for -22 BBY (the time of Episode II) some sources say 19, some 20 (I don't know why).

Qui-Gon is officially 60 in 32 BBY. Yes, that's from the script which was written before the younger Liam Neeson was cast, but it hasn't been revised and it's reasonable due to slow Jedi ageing. The novelization gives him as 'nearing sixty' which could make his birthdate a neat 90 BBY.

Mace Windu is given as 40 in 32 BBY. I would prefer to make him 50 then, 60 during Episode II, which fits Sam Jackson's being now in his early 50s, and gives more time for him to achieve his status in the Council.

Episode III is scheduled for 20 BBY (but this of course may change).

Anakin is probably exaggerating if he says many Padawans have taken the trials at that age: the range looks like very late teens to late twenties; and there's no reason to assume shame for graduating towards the later end: some masters may prefer to be thorough, some master-Padawan teams are too synergistically good to split up early, some Jedi may be highly competent but with one small problem area, etc.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
2 May 2002, 08:52 PM
I just checked the TPM novel and Anakin's 9 so the years between the movies have 11 years (unless Anakin's birthday have just happened in TPM but that is a slippery slop if I ever saw one).

And thanks for the reminder VoV about him turning 20 that tid bit slipped my mind.

CrazyNuts
2 May 2002, 09:04 PM
I don't know about talking during fight scenes but I have a rant and rave of my own. My probolem deals with Ob-wan and how much his character type changed. in ANH he's quiet and deeply phylisophical talking like yoda or anyone on the high councle. But in the first two episodes (yes I couldn't wait and read AOTC) he still acts immature. Granted in Episode 2 you can tell Euine McGregor is trying to act like the mature quiet jedi but doesn't do a very good job. It sort of relates to the Batman movies where Mikal Keton makes a good Bruce Wayne but not a good Batman. And Val Kilmor makes a good Batman but horrible Bruce.

For ANH, Alec Guiness was a great choice, he played the part perfectly but Euine is too rambunctious to be taken seriously...



"I don't need luck, I've got money I can buy luck!"-CrazyNuts

FlipDog 2000
3 May 2002, 06:39 AM
Have you seen E2 yet? I'm guessing no...so you don't know how "immature" Obi is in this one, do ya?

Old Obi is of course Mr. Philosophy...he's an old guy who has been watching from afar, trying to get over the loss of Anakin to the DS. Personally I think Ewan MacGregor rocks as Obi.

VixenofVenus
3 May 2002, 06:40 AM
Personally .... I hated how Ewan (not Euine) played Obi in Ep1, but from the novel and the trailers, he reminds me much more of Mr. Guiness, who was Yoda-like because of the experience of age, but still had that young sarcastic feel behind his fascade.

FlipDog 2000
3 May 2002, 06:45 AM
I loved Obi's sarcasm, but it did get a little annoying pretty quick. But like Vixen said, after reading the novel, I feel so much better and understand a lot better.