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CrazyNuts
2 May 2002, 08:34 PM
My friend who is also a GM brought this up and now that I think about it its a little weird to comprehend. He said "When a Jedi becomes dark it merely means that he devoted his life to using the force out of anger for attacking purposes. So if a Jedi was angered at the Empire for say killing his family, then he would use his dark force powers against the empire. So why is it that they created a line that put light jedi with the new Republic and Rebels and the dark with the Empire? A dark jedi could easaly be assossiated with the Rebellion.

And another thought I had was: What really makes a dark Jedi so dark after all? They're driven by agression and seek revenge, short of a sith I don't really see the probolem, I'm driven by agression everyday on the roads and at work but I'm not a bad guy am I? I guess if I had powers that could harm people who irritated me would I use them? Damn right I would! But I wouldn't hurt innocent people (unless I found it funny).

I dunno reply and tell me what you think.


"For once...I really don't have a smart a$$ comment to say to you...how powerful is that blaster of yours again?-CrazyNuts

p.s. I was kidding about the innocents

madpoet
3 May 2002, 03:39 AM
The Dark Side is a little more than anger and revenge. It "dominates your destiny." Sure, there could have been Jedi who used the Dark Side to fight the Empire, bit it wouldn't have been for the Rebels. It would have been for revenge. Someone so driven for vengence wouldn't care who got killed in order to acheive their goals. The Rebellion wouldn't have allowed someone like that to fight with them. What's the point of rebelling against something if you use the same thing you're fighting against to do it? Eventually, when you got your revenge, the Dark Side would compel you to further acts of aggression. Anger, fear, and vengence don't just lead to the Dark Side, they feed it. And it will always be hungry, even when you accomplish your goals.

BrianDavion
3 May 2002, 10:14 AM
that doesn't mean a dark jedi couldn't fight the empire by himself.
a good example of this is KJA's Jedi Academy trilogy.

was Kyp on the dark side? err yeah I'd say so... did he suddenly start loving the empire? nope he started attacking the empire.

VixenofVenus
3 May 2002, 10:57 AM
I would never say that the Dark Siders are with the Empire and pitted against the Light sided Rebellion ... more like:

The most prominent Dark Siders STARTED the Empire and the Light siders who were left alive obviously rebelled against their enemies along with those strong enough to resist the Empire ... ie the Rebels

DarthGM
15 May 2002, 08:56 AM
Look back through some of the old WEG products on Rebel Spec Ops soldiers. Every now and then you'll see a guy with a couple Dark Side points. Heck, Luke had 5 by the time he told Palpatine "I am a jedi, like my father before me".

[Tangent: After Luke cut off Vader's hand, he wasn't looking as his own hand for comparison, he was counting the number of DS points he had and how long before he became an NPC...:D ]

There are always missions that need to be done, but are known to be evil acts. There are those who fight the evil with evil intent, planning on hurting those as bad as they hurt them. Sometimes they can work within the structure of something like the Rebellion, usually only for a short while. Savagry and cruelty would lead to court martial and possible improsonment, so they're subtle and devious about it.

Now, if you're a Force-Sensitive, you're more in tune with the universe and it affects you in stronger ways, giving into your hatred and desires. You'll probably do what ever you can to satisfy those feelings, even endangering a mission to do it. This would accelerate your likelihood of court martial faster.

A Dark Jedi can work with the Rebellion, but it would be more like a "enemy of my enemy" relationship, or the Rebellion would be a convinient means for the Dark Jedi.

And hey, when it's your game, you can do whatever you want with it. If you've got a good story and a reasonable explination, you can do anything and rewrite anything, and it'll work...like editing out EVERYTHING written by Kevin Anderson.

The guy turned the Emperor into a James Bond villain.

farr0095
15 May 2002, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by CrazyNuts
They're driven by agression and seek revenge, short of a sith I don't really see the probolem, I'm driven by agression everyday on the roads and at work but I'm not a bad guy am I?

There's a difference between getting driven by agression from time to time and making it a central part of your life. When you wake up in the morning thinking of nothing but revenge, vengence, hate and anger, then you are a danger to everyone and pretty much a bad guy.

The other thing that drives most Dark Siders is the lust for power. Power is like a drug, and once they get a taste, they want more, because it makes their mission (whatever it is) easier to accomplish.

One thing the Emperor did was try to get Dark Siders to his side by offerring them power. He had vast knowledge of power, and could dole it out to those who served him. Hence another reason why there weren't many Dark Siders in the Rebellion.

Dark Siders also, I think, tend to be solitary. They may have an army to follow them, but they also probably don't have many close friends. It's hard to get close to someone that might in any instant kill you because he can or you anger him.

CrazyNuts
15 May 2002, 01:03 PM
I love seeing my old posts pop back up. It fills me with an inner joy to know that people still hold an interest in old subjects and are still reading stuff so old. I figured nobody read theses things anymore.
Another reason I like this sites forums versus other sites.

Proud to be a member

CrazyNuts

Jaggard
15 May 2002, 08:25 PM
I have trouble with the whole dark/light side thing.
I mean yeah giving into anger and aggression can cause problems but anger and hate are goal/target oriented feelings. I get angry when my boss does so and so. I was angry that my father died from something that could have been prevented. I'm angry at a guy who charmed a freind of mine got her pregnant and revealed himself to be a racist bigot who is hostile and demeaning to women. I would never willingly touch him. He is the closest thing to an object of hate I have in my life. The true problems come not from hate but from arrogance. He thinks he's better then some people because he's one type of person, if he decided that his being better then them entitled him to treat them like animals (including killing them for sport) then that is darkside to me. The arrogance of some 'diplomats' to parade a military force though the streets of a shared holy land is like a loud and arrogant challenge to those against the idea, it's deliberate provocation because they think they are allowed to do what they wish. That's darkside. The real danger in the darkside is not that you will be stuck hateing something to the point of evil. It's the idea that it's addictive. It's like cigarettes and alcohol, those who have the biggest problems are the ones who think they are in complete control. A co-worker decided that smokers are stupid not to just quit. So he gets some nicotine gum and says I'll get addicted to this and quit to prove how easy it is. He said some time later that he hasn't gotten addicted yet so he's buying more so he can keep chewing it to get addicted to prove how easy it is to quit. His idea has expanded, one pack wasn't enough to get him addicted so he has to get more (needing more is the big sign right there) but he doesn't hear others tell him that he's already addicted. He says he could stop but that would ruin the whole thing and he'd have to start all over. My point is that Arrogance leads to the darkside (not attachments to people; the whole jedi can't love concept sickens me) and idiferance toward others is worse then hate. The opposite of love isn't hate, but the absense of love (indifferance). Part of me is inclined to think that the reason yoda senses the darkside increasing and says it is so hard to see is that all the jedi are becoming arrogant in the assumption that they are Just and powerful being upholding the true and great government. When they are working for a corrupt republic who work for a man called Palpatine (we all know the major influance on him). So the Jedi through arrogance of assuming they are right have unknowingly allied themselves with the sith and like my addicted freind they don't see their slide to the darkside coming and anyone who tells them the truth is dismissed as mistaken.
How is that for a spin on things.
I think darkside points shouldn't go to the use of certain powers or angry actions but to arrogant behavior and indifferances to the consequences of an action. As these things mount the character should find it more and more tempting to do these things and not listen to others telling them about the change in their personality.

Jedi_Staailis
16 May 2002, 01:15 PM
I'm driven by agression everyday on the roads and at work but I'm not a bad guy am I?

No, our society does not consider controlled anger to be evil or bad. But those are the first steps toward it. I personally am convinced that anger and hate, regardless of how deserving the target, will only be destructive. We will all see evil acts. The key is how we respond to them. Anger will not right the wrongs or bring back the dead, nothing can. But sadness and a conviction to change future events may make a difference.

The Dark Side is the same way. However, Force users have the power to effect revenge. In our society, anger and hatred ultimately crumble in the face of our realization of our own insignificance (either willingly, or unwillingly, via a justice system). Dark Side users believe they can use their anger effectively, but once they have power, it corrupts them. A controlling and angry person is an object of pity, derision, or anger. A controlling and angry person with power is a monster.


Dark Siders also, I think, tend to be solitary.
I think it depends on the means the Dark Side user has available. If he or she needs assistance to achieve a goal, then they will most certainly seek it out. But if the goal is achievable without assistance, the Dark Sider will almost certainly follow the road alone. Relying on others dilutes the sense of power.


The true problems come not from hate but from arrogance.
Hate and arrogance are extremely similar. Hate comes from the feeling that we are right and another is wrong. Now I agree that the person you describe is wrong and evil, but hate still stems from the arrogant belief in our own superiority, regardless of the circumstances. The Dark Side works this way too. Anger can turn us into the thing we so desperately hate.

P.S.
I know a lot of this post seems patronizing. I didnít intend it to be so. I am as bad as anyone else about letting my anger and arrogance out occasionally.

Grim Fantango
16 May 2002, 07:08 PM
Hate is a tool used to inflict damage and destruction, hate is something that can be seen in action, hate is the fastest way to achieve a goal, and settle a concious....

Hating is something that cannot just stop, hating is when you concentrate on how to cause pain on someone else, and you concentrate so much that it betrays all your morals, it is a tool that is effectivly used by the Dark Jedi to show "This fool crossed you, kill him for it".... as Staailis said, hate is caused by the thought of superiority, the thought of someone bein better than you undermine's you're very being and ego, espically if you have the sorta power the jedi can weild....


Crap, i have more, but i havta go...

DarthGM
17 May 2002, 07:50 AM
SPOILER for those who have not seen Attack of the Clones.

Once more, Point of View is important here.

Take Anakin (good friggin' example here).

The boy lives with his heart, not his head. This makes him prone to thinking with his emotions. That's fine in limited quantities, but he does this all the time. He has no patience, is reckless, and jumps the gun and does what's important to him, not the galaxy.

I wouldn't give him a dark side point for jumping the gun on Dooku, except that it's perpetuating a behavior he's established throughout the movie. That would be "the last straw" for this GM after his arrogance and impatience with Zam Wessel, Padme, his obvious anger at being "put in his place" in front of the Queen, and his demand to land the craft to rescue Padme after she falls out fo the gunship. A DS Point over all for that "Long session".

Then there's the Tusken Raider scene. Ok, duh, Dark Side point. But why? Because the boy gave into anger completely. With wanton abandon, he gave into the dark side and slaughtered everyone in that camp. Hell, the boy gets 2-3 in my book.

Luke Skywalker hates the Empire for ruining his life and killing his Aunt and Uncle, but he doesn't slaughter stormtroopers whenever he finds them. He hates Vader for all he's done to his family and friends (and himself), but he recognizes that killing him for it is wrong because of those feelings. He recognized the point where you're thinking with your head and doing things because they have to be done and when you're doing things from your heart and because you want to.

This is also The Force. It's not like the real world, where we can see and usually sense what's right and wrong, and even forgive those who give into their hatred to do things. In example, no one will fault a man for killing the killer of his son; it's still illegal, but can you really blame him? But in the Star Wars universe, the Dark Side isn't just a moral code or a game mechanic, it's a demon on your shoulder, constantly whispering in your Force-Sensitive's ears, telling them constantly to give into hatred and fear. The Dark Side is a tangeble, living Force that influences your life, not some meaningless hoaky religion with a finite set of moral codes. It WILL destroy you if you let it.