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View Full Version : Return of the Jedi and a Couple of Questions



fenzer
3 May 2002, 07:18 AM
I was watching The Return of the Jedi on FOX last night and a couple of the issues that have always concerned me reared their ugly heads agian, no I am not talking Ewoks here. ;)

I am hoping for some feedback to help me better appriciate this film. If these topics have come up before, I apologize.

The first, and least relevent, has to do with the crazy logic behind flying a stolen shuttle mere meters from the command deck of a super star destroyer. Granted it looked cool but why in Lucas's green universe would Chewy and Han fly so damn close to Vaders ship, any command ship for that matter and secondly did they need to approach on that vector anyway? I understand that they needed to appear legit but why did the shield need to be deactivated for the shuttle to descend to the forest moon? From the holo image during the mission briefing the sheild looked to come from just a small area on the moons surface. The shuttle could have easily avoided the sheild altogether and landed close enough to make the raid on the generator. So, did they even need the code in the first place?

Second, during the climactic saber duel between Vader and Luke after Vader finds out about "sister" and Luke goes balistic. The fight moves toward the balcany and it seems that Vader just gives up. He is backing up toward the railing and seems to loose all will, grabs the railing, looses his hand and the fight. From the very first time I saw Jedi to last night this has always bothered me. A good friend of mine and I have had countless discussions on what transpires during those last few moments and while our explaination is satisfactory, I would love to hear your take on it. See, we concluded that the Dark Side of the Force, being fickle, left Vader and was drawn to Luke giving Luke added power and leaving Vader helpless thus allowing Luke to overpower the Dark Lord. That was the best we could do to discribe what transpired.

What do you think? Any thoughts or ideas?

VixenofVenus
3 May 2002, 08:07 AM
1) ... they needed to appear as if they were going to the shield generator, otherwise, if they had just flew by without saying a word and gone for a few kilometers away as they did ... then the Imperials would have automatically known something was up.

2) ... It's possible that the dark side went over to Luke ... or ... more likely that with the added strength given to Luke by his sudden anger (some say that in RPG terms he used a Dark Force Point), he overpowered the machine. Remember, all we have ever seen of Vader is a fairly slow and clumsy machine with man-parts. "He is more machine now than man, twisted and evil."

I would guess that Luke, being young, quick, and vigorous ... and nearly a Jedi Knight was an even match for the elder (though more powerful in the force) Vader. When Luke went into a rage, it tipped the balance of power between them in his favor.

Lord Diggori
3 May 2002, 09:13 AM
Good questions. My interpretations:

1.) I'm thinking there was a small planetary shield protecting the Death Star's shield generator facility, like the Hoth base had in Episode V. It wasnt mentioned in the briefing, true, but think about it. If the shield station didnt have a shield of it's own a Mon Cal cruiser could just have destroyed it from orbit or sent a flight of Y-wings down to bomb the damn thing. Palpatine isnt that stupid. Han and Chewy had to land and infiltrate to set charges cause the alliance doesnt have AT-AT or AT-ST's too crawl under the shield and blow it up like the Imps would.

2.) I'm not sure if the Darkside favored him or if Luke was just at his peak and fed-up with Vader. Remember that even on Cloud City, just before getting his hand clipped, Luke landed a pretty good cut to Vader's right bicep, nice for a padawan. On the Death Star Luke even managed to kick the old man down some steps before he decided to stay on the defensive, i.e. not give his all.

Now consider that Vader didn't want to kill Luke, he could've done so in ESB. He campaigned to turn him cause he loved the kid but hid it with that "together we can take out the Emperor stuff", though that would be icing on the cake. Luke, on the other hand, had every reason to kill Vader. The bastard estranged him from his mother, indirectly had Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru killed, killed Obi-Wan, killed his best bud Biggs, tortured Han and Chewy, could have killed Han by freezing him, cut his hand off, was responsible for the death of the entire Jedi Order and countless other folks, ...and now he was threatening the only family Luke had left.

Vader's half-assed sentimentality versus Luke's white-hot rage and skill.

Aaron B'Aviv
3 May 2002, 04:30 PM
On the second point, it's interesting to watch Vader's lightsabre duels. He's, IMHO, the best swordsman we've seen yet in the movies. With relatively few movements he can dispatch more mobile fighters.

In Empire Strikes Back, Vader was clearly toying with Luke. The fight wasn't much of one, and though it's an awfully dramatic scene, Vader was obviously the one who was going to win.

In Return of the Jedi, Vader had a much more difficult time fighting Luke. Some of that has to be attributed to Luke's improvement as a Jedi. A lot of it has to be attributed to Luke's fear about his friends and his anger at the Emperor and Vader. But even in places where Luke appears calm, Vader sometimes struggles to parry Luke's attacks. Some Dark Lord of the Sith.

My new theory about this? Vader was dying before his duel with Luke. His prosthetics could no longer sustain him for much longer, and the Dark Side was eating away at him. This explains why Vader was unable to fight with his typical ease. It explains why Vader limped over to the Emperor when he tossed him into the bottomless pit- the only injury Luke caused him was cutting off a mechanical hand, so why would he be walking so feebly otherwise? It explains why a dosage of Force Lightning far smaller than that Luke took was enough to kill Vader. It explains why Vader said "nothing can stop that now" when Luke said that without his Mask he would die.

Any thoughts?

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
3 May 2002, 05:13 PM
Ooh!, good discusion going here... must reply :)

good points Aaron B'Aviv


Aaron B'Aviv: It explains why a dosage of Force Lightning far smaller than that Luke took was enough to kill Vader. It explains why Vader said "nothing can stop that now" when Luke said that without his Mask he would die.

I'm not discounting the sith eating away at him or his implants... though here's a thought ot add to it:
Hmm, some speculation about the dosage of force lightning Vader got, maybe it fried some of Vader's life support equipment and other mechanical implants. It could explain it, and since he was dying from suit failier, removing the mask wouldn't do any worse; maybe help quicken the death. At the very least, Vader did get to see his son with his very own eyes as a last request.


Aaron B'Aviv: In Return of the Jedi, Vader had a much more difficult time fighting Luke...[snip]....But even in places where Luke appears calm, Vader sometimes struggles to parry Luke's attacks.

Perhaps Vader was slowly coming around from his earlier counters with Luke with thoughts they together could overthrow Palpatine. Vader may have figured it out he would have to kill or be killed under Paplatine's direction. And Palpaltine would not have wanted him aprentacing. Rule of the sith: "there are always two" does come to mind. From that, maybe the goodness was eating from within him.

Or maybe the phrase "blood is thicker than water" can explian some of it. I can't recall the direct line from Vader, but it was something like "Together, we can rule the galaxy" ; nowheres do i recall Palpatine's name in there (unless my memory's wrong, it's been far to long since i watched the movie)

Dunno, just a thought anyways :)
Anyone else?

Jaggard
3 May 2002, 06:14 PM
Um some ideas.

Vader threw his light saber and cause the walkway to drop luke in the shadowed areas. Vader the lowered his weapon (one handed) and began to search the darkness with his force abilities and basically raped lukes mind for things to taunt him with. When Luke attacks he makes a two handed attck on an almost flat footed Vader. Vader stops several blows left handed (which must have been a strain). His Energy was drained and maybe even still invested in his mind probe, so he couldn't use his considerable powers to augment his fighting skills as he sure had in the past (he's in life support armor, if he can't survive without it he must have to use his abilities to give him an edge)
He had to back pedal and bring up his saber to take as a two handed defense. Walking backward across the grated floor deflecting blows that have no grace whatso ever but have strength, youth and anger behind them. I believe he ends up backing onto a ramp or steps. It's easy to stumble doing that, which I always thought it looked like he did. Luke doesn't go for body shots but keeps hitting the sabre and as vader stumbles his instinct is to catch himself which causes a momentarty weakening of grip. Another strick from luke causes vader to go one handed again. But this time Lukes strike gets a little closer to home as their blades meet (Lukes verticle or attack one, while vader is in a low defense one or horizontal infront of chin [too low, should have been higher]) Luke leans into the blow and tips the blade forward so the tip is micro meters from Vaders mask (if you look at it after the battle but before the vader is near the lightening it's got a smoked or greyed spot implying heat damage.) Vader unbalanced falls on one arm and a few more blows angle that limb so the next shot lopped his hand off.
In order to use his hand he had to feel through it so it hurt to lose it, and pain weakened him and he lost all concentration on the force. And I'd have to say that the force lightening might or might not have been enought to short out his suit before but with the opening in the wrist it allowed it to get into his suit systems and short them out.
Sorry, didn't mean to go so blow by blow.

CrazyNuts
3 May 2002, 07:26 PM
Ya know? I honnestly don't know, but I'm willing to venture an opinion. It seems to me that I have no clue on the first question and will avoid it at all costs to save myself the trouble of making a stupid comment and have everyone discove what a total dough-head I am. But as for the second I have to agree with a few of the above responces, when it shows Luke in the Shadows half shadowed half not, I think it represents his want to stay light but the pull tward the darkside also acting on him. So giving into the anger Vader creates giving himself an extra boost that forces Vader backward. But to the point where Vader falls to the railing, I belive that it was old age, (I recall reading that only light jedi age slower, and dark jedi age regularly or faster) and his suits resporatory functions gave out (granting why Vader is already breathing odd after only loosing his hand). When you see Vader slumped it looks allot like he's out of breathe because of the lack of a decent fight since the purge (since Ben put up no struggle and Luke did but it was a shorter fight with a few breaks in between and for all we know after Luke kicked him off the stairs or Luke flew out the window that Vader didn't readjust his breathing supply or something)

I guess that might make sence...hmmm



"I keep having this re-occuring dream where I'm sent back in time and I'm searching for lost relics all over a world that has a race, I think, called a not-see. I don't recall much else but I do remember the name of their god was something Lucas..."-CrazyNuts

darth maim
3 May 2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Lord Diggori
Good questions. My interpretations:
Palpatine isnt that stupid.

You're absolutely right... I mean it isn't like they build a weapon that could atomize a planet but had a ventilation shaft big enough for a starfighter to fit through leading to the power core...

:D ;)

fenzer
4 May 2002, 08:16 AM
Darth main you make me laugh. I have to say I never thought that they would use the same shield protecting the Death Star to protect the generator. See why I need you guys.

I guess this is just a nit-pick of mine but no one has ventured a guess as to why Han and Chewy fly so close to Vader's SSD. I guess Lucas felt it important to have Vader and Luke sence each other. It is just funny to hear Han tell Chewy to "fly casual" as they are on a near collision corse with the command bridge.

I love the disscussion on Luke and Vader. I watched the whole thing again and I think I agree with Jaggard and his play-by-play. Watching Vader it appears as though he is recouped his strength from the earlier fighting. I guage this by his normal breathing. His strength appears whole. When Luke charges him he is caught off guard and spends the whole fight back-peddling just trying to keep up with Luke's attack. My guess is he spends everything he has to stay in the fight but it fails him. He does not have enough strength to keep Luke away and finally gives in. It just seems to suddenly happen in the movie and maybe all we are witnessing the final result of Vaders exhaustion.

I will say this. The following scene where Luke proclaims "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." is one of my favorites. "So be it, Jedi." I love this stuff.

Keep the ideas coming.

Emperor Xanderich II
4 May 2002, 09:59 AM
Moving to Rebellion Era

Lord Diggori
5 May 2002, 06:50 PM
Who can get tired of discussing SW? :D

Chewy had to fly close to the Imps to get them to let the shuttle through I think. A ship with an old code, that should have been updated considering the top secret status of the project, staying far away looks too suspicious in my opinion. If you're a sensor tech with Vader a few meters away, well within gesturing range, arent you gonna play it safe? Why it was that close is likely because it makes a great tension building scene.

As for the fight, I'm stick'in to my guns. I can see the darkside making Palpatine all sickly but he's still flesh. The darkside contained in a living vessel erodes said vessel, like hot coffee in a mug made of ice. Vader, having fell into a lava vent, has got be about 80-90% machine. Would aging even affect him? He's barely a living vessel. What's the darkside gonna chew on?

Vader couldnt concentrate from his inner conflict, I think. He was fighting on two fronts. Luke on the outside who reminded him of Anakin on the inside.

Emperor Xanderich II
6 May 2002, 02:40 PM
On the fight:

My thinking would be along two lines.

The first would be of Vader not wanting to kill his son, being caught off guard and maybe something from the light-side teling him that Luke would be able to fell the Emperor where he couldn't. He wanted to lose.

The second, and perhaps more interesting, is of the Emperor's interferance. Maybe the Emperor was hindering Vader's actions, as he now saw Luke using his hate and having the ability to "take your Father's place at my side".

Also, the Emperor probably put far more power into the force lightning he used to fry Vader than he used to toy with Luke.

IMO Vader could easily have thrashed Luke if he had really wanted to.

But then, he didn't 8o

The Diabolical
6 May 2002, 03:18 PM
I can't really add anything new to this topic, but I'll post anyway. :) If you think about the number of fighters, bombers, and shuttles buzzing around a star destroyer it become apparent that someone has to direct all of that traffic. Just like modern day airports, a Star Destroyer has to control it's "airspace" to avoid random collisions and prevent unauthorized take-offs and landings.

The Star Destroyers orbiting Endor most definitely monitored each and every ship in the area and would of dispatched a group of Ties to blow apart any ship that didn't seek authorization to land before heading to the forest moon.

In regards to the distance that Chewie flew to the Executer, that was partly due to them not wanting to appear that they were avoiding the fleet, and partly dramatic license to show just how big the ship was.

On the other matter of how in the world did Lucky Luke beat Vader...Vader didn't have the heart to kill Luke. Vader served the Emperor out of fear, but secretly wanted for Luke to destroy the Emperor and free him (thus his empassioned plea for Luke to join him in Cloud City). The revelation that he had a daughter as well....a daughter that he would also destroy that same day if Luke were to perish also caused conflict in him.

His loss to Luke would mean that Luke would destroy the Emperor, and perhaps then he and Luke could impose order on the galaxy and rule it well (this plan is seriously flawed for if it did happen the power would only further corrupt Vader and turn Luke to the dark side). Seeing Luke rage he sandbagged a little in hopes that Luke would channel that rage into striking down the Emperor.

Shaggy
6 May 2002, 09:37 PM
Wow this is the best thread yet and I have something small to add.

I love Aaron B'Aviv's idea that Vader was already nearing Death. From Palpatine's attitude towards him this entire scene seems to indicate that he also realized this. He's thinking Vader is on his way out, he's served his purpose (destroying the Jedi and luring the only remaining one to him). Time for a fresh recruit.
I (think) I remember that from Shadows of the Empire that Vader could actually leave his suit if he filled himself with the power of the darkside.
So what I'm saying is that I think that the suit alone is not enough to keep him alive, he must also constantly use the darkside to hold onto life and his hate.
I think that as he is fighting Luke he realizes that he can not kill him and the anger that he has been festering in him since his original fight with Obi-Wan in Episode 3 is suddenly gone and with it the support of the darkside which is maintaining his unnatural life.

Then, as his son is calling for him in desparation, the lightside returns to him then,which must have felt so serene after 20 years of constant hate, he grabs the emporer and destroys him.

scourgicus
7 May 2002, 11:54 AM
I totally agree with Jaggard's assessment but someone then suggested who was Palpatine supporting in the fight...Here's a D20 thought - all through the fight Palpatine used Force/Knight/Master Mind to aid Vader. Upon learning that Luke had a sister, Vader suddenly wasn't nessecary and he F/K/MMinded Luke...giving him the DS power to destroy Vader. The thought occurs...isn't Force Mind only for the user's allies? But perhaps by calling on the Dark Side Luke opened himself to the Emperor. Just some thoughts. I love this discussion.

fenzer
8 May 2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Shaggy
Wow this is the best thread yet and I have something small to add.

Thanks. :)


Orignally posted by The Diabolical
The revelation that he had a daughter as well....a daughter that he would also destroy that same day if Luke were to perish also caused conflict in him.

His loss to Luke would mean that Luke would destroy the Emperor, and perhaps then he and Luke could impose order on the galaxy and rule it well (this plan is seriously flawed for if it did happen the power would only further corrupt Vader and turn Luke to the dark side). Seeing Luke rage he sandbagged a little in hopes that Luke would channel that rage into striking down the Emperor.

I like this idea alot. I hadn't looked at it this way before and I like where it goes. While I think you guys have it right, it never occured to me that the Emperor was looking to trade up. Vader was too powerful, too important to give up. The Emperor would do well to have them both, such were my thoughts. Obviously this would not work out. There can only be two, a master and an apprentace. It makes sence that Vader would know this and secretly work against it. Thus, answering my question as to why he seems to just give up at the end of the duel.

This is good stuff guys.

VixenofVenus
8 May 2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Shaggy
... he must also constantly use the darkside to hold onto life and his hate.
I think that as he is fighting Luke he realizes that he can not kill him and the anger that he has been festering in him since his original fight with Obi-Wan in Episode 3 is suddenly gone and with it the support of the darkside which is maintaining his unnatural life.

Then, as his son is calling for him in desparation, the lightside returns to him then,which must have felt so serene after 20 years of constant hate, he grabs the emporer and destroys him.

This is great .... I love it!

I never thought that Vader's death had anything to do with the Dark Side. I always thought he died because the Emperor's lightning shorted out his suit ... and caused his systems to go haywire, making it harder for him to breathe, etc ... and eventual death (which is why Luke had to carry him out to the Landing Bay).

But now that I think about it, it probably is a combination of both of these things. Maybe in that instance when he threw the Emperor off the platform, his suit was being shorted out ... and he lost all connection to the Dark Side of the Force. And then ... as he began to collapse ... maybe some of the reason he also began to die, was that the Light Side of the Force was righting the balance of the Force, through him ... making the prophecy fulfilled.

In order to fully fulfill that prophecy and balance the Force, Vader probably had to die. Then, only then, would the prophecy be complete. I wonder if Vader also let go somewhat, he probably could have held on longer and stayed alive longer, but the Light Side probably felt like a warm blanket after all those years of cold blackness ... and he couldn't help but feel ... tired.

Interesting ...

fenzer
8 May 2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by VixenofVenus
In order to fully fulfill that prophecy and balance the Force, Vader probably had to die. Then, only then, would the prophecy be complete. I wonder if Vader also let go somewhat, he probably could have held on longer and stayed alive longer, but the Light Side probably felt like a warm blanket after all those years of cold blackness ... and he couldn't help but feel ... tired.

Yes, yes! I agree completely. He says, "...tell your sister you were right about me." and then just lies back and dies. Man, this gives the ending to RotJ a whole new meaning for me. Thanks everyone.

DarthGM
14 May 2002, 07:46 AM
OOoooo....nice thinking, scourgicus, My PCs are gonna hate me when I pull that kinda stuff on them....:D

According to the DSSB, Vader needs an alchemical Sith mixture to stay alive. The emperor doles out an alotment to Vader from time to time. Vader could have had other conflicts occuring while fighting Luke than just turning him to the Dark Side...

"Ok, if I let my punk-son kill Palpy, I don't get my fix and I die."
*blocks Luke's shot on the Emperor*

"Crud, Paply's killing my son...hmmm...dammit...well, it's been a good run..."
*throws Emperor down shaft*

Rip Jedi
20 May 2002, 08:07 PM
i just watched the duel and personaly i just think vader was beaten down yes i think that luke did get some power from the dark side at that moment but i also think that vader was never that good at using a light saber
the srtike that took vaders hand off was delibrate kind of lukes revenge it did seem that was what he was wanting to do

oh and one other thing i just noticed how cool the music was durring the duel thanks for making me watch it agin

FlipDog 2000
24 May 2002, 09:35 AM
If ya really think about it and watch. The reason Luke wins that duel is that he call on the DS when Vader touches a nerve about Leia. Realizing the error of his ways and thinking: aww crap, I have a family, and a son that would die trying to save me. *CONFLICT**CONFLICT**CONFLICT* Hey, I'll save me son and end this reign of terror by sacrificing myself.

Lord Duguael
24 May 2002, 12:09 PM
Maybe its been said, but in response to the first question I don't think they fly that close to the SSD.

Its all perception:

--> Looking out the window, the command crew of the shuttle all shudder at the enormity of what they are about to do. (A handful of people on a leaky boat are going to save the universe...) Thus, the already massive ship looks even larger...

fenzer
25 May 2002, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Lord Duguael
Maybe its been said, but in response to the first question I don't think they fly that close to the SSD.

Its all perception:

Maybe so. Just from the view port of the shuttle and the external views it looks like they are right there. I always thought that they could fly their flight path without having to move so close to the SSD and still look legit and get code clearance. But Vader had to sence Luke and vise versa. Besides, it does give great perspective to the size of an SSD.