View Full Version : Some thoughts about EU (spoilers here)

12 May 2002, 01:19 PM
As stated before on a different post, many of the list members have already read the novelization of Attack of the Clones (which the title really doesn't sound as bad as it once did) and by the time some read this they will already have seen the movie so this isn't so much of a spoiler for them.

That was my disclaimer, now I can get to my question. If there were only 20 jedi (Lost 20)that ever left the order, wouldn't that pretty much defeat the Expanded Universe explanation of the Sith Order as it was a large group of disgruntled jedi that began that order after mingling with the Sith species?

Just a question or a thought. I realize that George is not bound by the Expanded Universe, but I'm wondering how they are going to alter the history of the Sith.

Wade Trenor
12 May 2002, 05:03 PM
My perspective is this:

The Lost 20 are those Jedi who chose to leave the Order.

The original Dark Jedi who eventually began the Sith Tradition fell to the Dark Side and were cast out from the Jedi - they were forced to leave rather then opting to go.

Also, the Jedi archives were situated on Ossus, and during the Republic/Sith war, much of Ossus was destroyed. The numbers of Jedi who had left the Order, as well as a lot of other pertinent data would have been lost.

The Jedi/Sith war would probably have had a similar affect of destroying Jedi history or archives going missing.

Master Dao Rin
12 May 2002, 10:13 PM
Well, the statement is quite clear: only 20 Jedi have ever left the Order.
I believe its on page 57 of the hardcover novel.

There isn't any voluteerism implied, or any sorta or mighta, or exceptions, like forcing people to leave (which makes sense, since the Jedi aren't about forcing anything - so, from my perspective, a Jedi who embraced the Dark Side wouldn't necessarily go out with a bang, and could quite conceivably voluntarily leave the Order).

Now, you can interpretate this statement anyway you want, but I prefer to take the statement at face value. It is what it is.

Now, yes, that invalidates all the eu. But, so what? Unless you think the Sith Wars and all that are straight from Lucas' mouth, or is a "truer" vision of Star Wars, then the 'canon' vision fits perfectly from what we've come to expect and know about the Jedi.

And, if you think about it, this is a much more preferable idea than the marvel comicbook crud that is the current eu. Look at the statement - only 20 Jedi ever left. That says something, and it says something pretty powerful: the Jedi are on to something, and it WORKS, and it has worked WELL, so they must be doing something right. There isn't an emotional crisis every week during padawan training, like some lame soap opera. No, with this statement, we aren't going to fall into the super suncrusher of the week syndrome like the current novels and such aka KJA and Zahn, or Stackpole for that matter. Heck, even the NJO is following a similar path.

No, this statement says that the Jedi are trained and they are trained well, and only a very few individuals since the Order's inception have ever felt the need to question their values or the rightness of the Jedi path. Its even then makes those that DO turn to the Dark Side that much more dramatic and special.

I much prefer this explanation. Moreover, it allows me to write the type of villians that are better than Exar Kun and Naga Sadow and all that.

YMMV, however.

13 May 2002, 04:17 AM
Actually 20 Jedi is quite a lot if viewed from a certain perspective. For example " You are attacked by 20 Jedi". Now that is a lot of Jedi considering the damage that one Jedi, acting alone, can dish out. But if you are talking about how many stray from the path, no 20 is not a large number....just a powerful number.

Nova Spice
15 May 2002, 07:19 PM
Yeah 20 Jedi is a good bit..not a lot, but a nice number.Now, Master Dao Rin care to elaborate on Zahn, Stackpole, and the EU? If memory serves me right, and I KNOW it does since I've read every novel by Zahn, Stackpole, and in the NJO, neither author used a superweapon......NEITHER has the NJO thus far (The Starlancer Project is merely a test prototype for a long-range cannon...not a planet-destroying weapon)....so basically, how can you validate your statement?

Second, I do agree that Episode II takes precedence over any Marvel comic EVER created. But I am sure they can tweak the words around and explain the Sith Wars, abeit in a corny manner. Basically, I view the Lost Twenty as those who left, feeling the Jedi Order was too weak for them. The Sith were more than likely exiled or banished for their treachery, although I have no proof to back it up and I won' pretend I have any proof either. We will just have to hear it from The Flanneled One's mouth to truly know. ;)

15 May 2002, 09:08 PM
I'm never gonna forgive lucas for changing the Tuskan Culture.

But as to your question. No it doesn't.
Think of it like this. The Jedi are an order of warrior monks (think tibet). They take the roll of jedi for life. But it's also a job.
The Lost Twenty are infact those that decided to retire, or if you wish become atheists (sorry that's the best I can do for a religious example). They no longer want to be Jedi, even though almost all jedi choose to die as jedi.
Now the sith are different all together. The sith didn't retire, they still hold to the Jedi 'religion' they just switched from catholics to satanists (that's a gross exageration but you get the idea.) You Have to believe in the God/Devil opposition to worship the devil or That god.
So the Sith didn't abandon the Jedi 'Religion' they just switched sides. They didn't decide , I don't want to be a jedi anymore. They just decided to pick the road less traveled so to speak. Maybe the jedi consider them Heretics, or banished them from the order; But they are always refered to as the dark jedi. They still believe in the force as it's refered to by the jedi they just use the darker half.
I know that's not very clear but the best I can say is. The lost ones retired. The sith switched sides. A US spy that leaks info to the Nazis is still a spy, he's just a Nazi spy. A Nazi spy that serves them loyaly and then wishes to move to brazil and have a family and not do spying anymore is a lost one. A US spy who sticks around and becomes head of intelligence and takes less and less work but still helps out when a new Head of intel is selected is equivalent to a Jedi who stays in the order. He will die a spy.
I'm not insinuating that Jedi are spies or Nazis, but it illustrates the idea.

Master Dao Rin
16 May 2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Yeah 20 Jedi is a good bit..not a lot, but a nice number.Now, Master Dao Rin care to elaborate on Zahn, Stackpole, and the EU? If memory serves me right, and I KNOW it does since I've read every novel by Zahn, Stackpole, and in the NJO, neither author used a superweapon......NEITHER has the NJO thus far (The Starlancer Project is merely a test prototype for a long-range cannon...not a planet-destroying weapon)....so basically, how can you validate your statement?)

They didn't build superweapons, but they did something as bad:

Stackpole: An uber-Jedi pilot with angst. Hey, and he's even better than Skywalker! :rolleyes:

Zahn: An uber-not-a-Jedi-(but really is)-but-then-all-of-a-sudden-a-Jedi-Master with PMS. And then she falls in love with Skywalker. :rolleyes:

More original as superweapon of the week? :raised:

At least KJA doesn't apologize for his swank.

17 May 2002, 04:35 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else see the "Uber-Jedi" as MDR refers to Corran Horn fall on his butt with any sort of regularity?
And so Stackpole writes him as an arrogant cocky kinda pilot.. yeah he's a fighter jock.. and therefore part of an elite group.
Tell me you don't know any elite group/special forces guys who don't think the sun comes up when they bend over? I saw it plenty when I was in the Australian Army - the regular soldiers thought they were better than the reservists, even though they did exactly the same courses together, and the SAS think they're better than everyone.

IMO Corran Horn gets written well... he has his moments of glory, but he also screws up and gets cut down to size for it as well. Read I,Jedi?
Sure.. he struts into a Hutt stronghold, but ends up doing the nude dash for home via the backstreets due to a poor clothing choice, and the rest of the populace thinks he's been getting around crashing speeders while drunk. If that doesn't bring you down about 6 notches then nothing will.

Master Dao Rin
19 May 2002, 11:16 PM
The attitude I can live with - fits the character.

What I was referring to was the tired pilot turned Jedi routine. :rolleyes:

Corran should've stayed a plain fighter jock - would've made the story a whole lot more interesting. Han is cool. Another uber-Luke is not.

20 May 2002, 02:54 AM
As a Jedi though, he's been pretty seriously hobbled with regards to the "usual" Jedi abilities... if he wants a drink, he can't do the ole Vader trick of just bringing the cup to him, he has to get off his butt and go get it :)

At least it wasn't Wedge who was a Jedi all of a sudden :p

29 May 2002, 03:03 AM
Corrans one of the main chr's in the X-wing books stackpole proberbly just wanted a pilot that stood out that wasnt wedge and with luke out of the picture he could use a force user + he doent learn to use the force sensibly until I jedi and the books he appears in after that are NJO

As for the 20 jedi leaving this is my explantion
mm dont like being jedi anymore lets do something else this job sucks kind thing


29 May 2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Jaggard
I'm never gonna forgive lucas for changing the Tuskan Culture.

How did he do this? I'm slightly confused. Was it that men, women and children remark by Anakin (I heard someone mention that remark in this way once, I think).

29 May 2002, 01:57 PM
Yeah, but it's more then just one little remark. In the movie anikan says the men women and children thing (We even glimpse a female tuskan). But in the book he says I killed them all, men women and child. The women don't even fight. Then the clincher, the Vis Dic says that the tuskens are strongly devided down gender lines. That women stay and tend camp but never fight. and more that I've repressed. I like the concept of survival in the deserts involved all to take care of themselves and non of that submissive servile woman stuff. They way I see it they could easily have gone with the idea like some dessert cultures who have women who can declare themselves men and have wives and land and all the rights of men (at least one culture in the african plains did this [yeah discovery channel]) and or the spartan culture of greece allowed their women to become warriors under the beleif that a warrior mother and a warrior father would breed great warriors (and probably those that wouldn't died, survival of the fittest). I know Lucas bases a lot of his stuff on existing cultures and mythology but there are other cultures too. Heck the Mongols had ranks of women soldiers that rode with the (admittedly as clean up crew, slaughtering those who were only wounded, and collecting the arrows and probably looting. I don't remember if they were also archers.) Some say this maybe the origins of the Amazon myths but others point to mysterious burrial sites where women are burried with all the trapping of warriors and the men with those of domestic life, including children that may have died with them.
And so ends todays history lesson. :o :D sorry I try really hard not to do those lecture like monolouges but it's hard.

29 May 2002, 02:30 PM
Isn't is possible that different tribes of Tuskens from different parts of the planet have different customs, considering that civilizations all over this planet have very diverse cultures.

29 May 2002, 02:44 PM
I don't know, it's hard to reconsile thses things. I mean anakin says what he says; so it's implied that it applies to all those he knows about and even those others know about. He may have heard rummors ect. but it's eccepted fact that it's that way. And some material (I know that if we disregard one thing from them why not all of it, but that doesn't feel right) says that they have a strict culture that says any deviation from past ways warrents death. Even recitie a clan history with any change at all. And addmittadely there maybe two ways to enterprit certain things all tuskans come ultimately from other tuskens. Which implies a fairly standard way of doing things. It's not that hard to beleave (sp) concidering that almost all culture seem to have at least some history of male dominace, I was partly intrested in them because this didn't seem to be the default for them. I've grown some what attached to them so I'll have to find a way to get over it.