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Nova Spice
22 May 2002, 02:11 PM
Heylo friends, I just got off an AOL chat with one of my PC's. Apparently everyone, I can't use the Improved Critical feat for my NPCs. That's right, I can't do it(even though I haven't even implemented the new rules yet; we still use the old ones until this campaign is over). In fact,if I do, the game isn't fun anymore. This PC is overly critical on me, constantly spouts out technical rhetoric, and believes I should listen to him whenever he speaks. I guess I lost my cool with him, I told him that whatever the GM says, goes. He responded with a "I knew you'd say that." and continued explaining how I constantly critical hit the group too much. We just finished Act One of Tempest Feud with the big swoop fight at the end (the Extreme Encounter) and I criticaled the group's PC Crimelord and killed one of the PC's followers. I've been GMing for a year and a half straight and have really just started getting bashed by this PC. We started this RPG a year and a half ago (everyone being newbies to RPG, which is me and four PCs).
Now, I have a question for all you GM veterans out there. Am I wrong here? Bear in mind I don't use a GM screen and roll in front of them, so it is the luck of the dice, not me. I mean I bust my butt to create maps, stats, and adventures for the group (during school I work on the RPG anywhere from six-eight hours a week) and I guess I feel I'm not entitled to this kind of abuse. He is no more experienced than I am and I certainly spend my free time creating stuff for the group..sometimes interfering with my school work. Now that school is out and summer is here, I've decided that after the summer or after we finish Tempest Feud,I'm quiting...I'm sick of the abuse and I'm sick of him thinking he is smarter than me and judging me.....He uses the Holonet against me, saying that I don't do what some of you guys do and therefore I'm wrong.....
So what should I do??....I'm seriously thinking about hanging it up.....the other three members NEVER complain. But nevertheless the crap I take is too much. I could really use some advice here. Anyone? :(

DarthMalaryush
22 May 2002, 02:33 PM
"He uses the Holonet against me, saying that I don't do what some of you guys do and therefore I'm wrong.....
So what should I do? "

We are all going to go jump off a cliff this weekend come join us......


You are in the right! your one malcontent wanting it all his way is in the wrong. You as GM are GOD. Your word is LAW. Let him know you don't appreciate his feed back to your efforts and if he doesn't like it he can try running for another group. Talking things through is the best solution but I have also had to dismiss player from the group for the sanity of all involved. It hapens, but in my oppinion running is great fun, don't let htis one dad experience urn you off. hope this helps

Korris
22 May 2002, 02:36 PM
Dont worry about it Nova Spice.
Insist on rolling all your dice infront of him, that way when an unlucky critical comes his way then he asked ofr it :)
Players should have respect for the Gm, Im not saying their always right, but certainly they could be more civilised and adult like. Im sure your not inconsiderate and do genuinely listen to the players and consider. But I know some players Must have their own way and can be very difficult.
Best just to sit down and talk about it (Privately away from other players if need be).
Remind Both yourselves that its a game and its meant to be fun. Remmind him the Gm is there to produce that fun, he/she is not against the players. I think when he/she realises this, youll get along fine :)

Be Excellent to each other and may the force be with you

Sil7
22 May 2002, 02:40 PM
I'm seriously thinking about hanging it up.....

Nova Spice,

Please don't do that. I value your input and advice on things, and your experiances closely mirror mine (I've only been RPing about a year and a few months, and it sounds like your doing a much better job than I).

The solution that seems most apparent to me is to get rid of the gamer. I don't think I'd have the heart to do it myself, but it looks like there isn't much of a choice.

It seems the player has contradicted himself. He criticizes you because you do things differently from some of the people from the Holonet, yet when you use the number one rule, the Game Master is always right, he thinks that your wrong.

I hope my opinion is helpful to you,

Sil7

Talonne Hauk
22 May 2002, 04:53 PM
First of all, it's only a game. If it's not fun, especially due to one malcontent, it's time for a break. Seriously. Never invest too much time into a game that it cuts into your school work or valuable goofing around time on the internet. If your player is having such a problem with you that he has to berate you online, then priorities need to be adjusted all the way around.
Having said that, if your player can't limit his criticism to you during the time when all of you are together, bump him. Get him out. If the GM is not having fun, the players won't either. If the rest of your players are fine with you, they'll back you up, and your malcontent will back down. His abuse to you in an online chat is simply a bullying tactic. Complaints should be aired out in public, so the group can tackle the problem and come to a solution. Do not tolerate your players abuse, especially when the problem can't be addressed immediately anyhow.

Grimace
22 May 2002, 05:06 PM
I have multiple suggestions for you. You may not like some of them, so feel free to pick and choose (I'm sure you'd do that anyway ;))

First: Use a GM screen. Showing all of the rolls is nice and seems fair for the players, but there are sometimes when a GM just wants to fudge something to make the game more playable. You can't do that when all of your rolls are seen by everyone.

Second: Try to use reason with this problem player. Ask him why natural "rules" of the game galaxy should only apply to him and the other PCs and not to the NPCs. Why should he be able to roll criticals on NPCs, but the NPCs can't roll them on him? Does he somehow have an "alter reality" aura in the game? This is one of the main things that I always tell my players. What works for them, works for the NPCs as well. Plain and simple.

Third: Don't let one rotten apple make you toss out the whole basket of fruit, man! I see one of two or three things that you can occur. If he quits complaining due to one of the above two suggestions, problem solved. If he still continues to complain, suggest that, in the summer, he runs the game and he runs it his way....with you as a player. If he doesn't want to run the game, and still wants to complain, tell him that if he doesn't like it, don't play. Don't stop doing something you enjoy because one person complains. The squeaky wheel either gets the grease or it gets the kick. You decide, but I would suggest against hanging up the GM reigns for good.

Fourth: I'm not sure what this guy points to in order to "use the Holonet against you", but you can certainly point to this thread and show him that he's just a little out of line in his thinking. GMs make the call in the game. If the player doesn't like it, they can either get the GM to pick a happy medium, or they can quit (if the GM doesn't want to change something that isn't broke). Players will sometimes try to twist things as much in their favor as possible. Some players can be really pushy about this, trying to almost bully the GM. Don't let it happen. When you're running the game, it's your baby, so don't let one other person tell you differently.

Hope some of these help.
(and hang in there!)

Aaron B'Aviv
22 May 2002, 05:37 PM
From the point of view of someone who's played more than he's GMed, I have a few things to say.

First of all, there are times when the players need to give the GM grief. It provides an outlet for frustration about the way the game is going, so long as it remains good natured.

I've screamed long and hard at my GMs, and I can't say that they liked it. But GMs are not infallible and sometimes they need to be yelled at.

That being said, there is a certain amount of civility involved, and complaints about the way the game is being played should be voiced politely and reasonably. I've learned from experience that sometimes GMs do have a valid point of view.

If your player refuses to listen to reason and can't provide any rational explanations for his complaints, you should just ignore him. If he has a basis for his complaints about your GMing (The NPCs that you give Improved Critical to have 10 levels on your PCs, for example), then you really should listen to him. The GM might have the final say on the rules, but it's the combination of players and GM that makes a fun game.

Note to Nova's player: Just because i disagreed with everyone else about the infallibility of the GM doesn't mean that you can use this post as an argument that Nova's wrong. If you read this, remember that you should voice any problems you have with the way Nova's GMing civilly and in a calm voice. If you get angry and scream at him, you're just increasing the odds that he'll listen to the posts above.

evan hansen
22 May 2002, 07:31 PM
Hmm. A common problem for sure. Suggestions offered to this point have been excellent -- a common theme among holonet posts, i'm noticing -- but should some of those things not work, I have another idea for you.

Have a non-gaming session.

it's that simple. Sit down with everyone and have people talk about what they like and dislike about the campaign. You, as GM, have to be the leader. You can't take criticism personally and you can't assume that praise means you're in the right. in other words, it's your job to suck it up and take it, even if you ARE right. Talk it out and decide on a course of action. if this one PC is the only one moaning and crying then you are perfectly justified in doing whatever you've been doing. If people echo his complaints, then make some adjustments. sometimes, even if you're right, you have to adjust for your gamers. Ultimately, the point of the game is for everyone to have fun. As the person in charge of the game, you'll have to find a balance.

But communicate with your players. if a PC yells at you, try to push it aside until you can talk to the gamers as a group. Get a feel for what's going on. Ask them to be honest and open and tell them you'll do the same for them.

Best of luck with your PC...and your campaign. May the Force be with you. :-)

DirkGreystoke
22 May 2002, 08:50 PM
Work with the guy as best you can, Nova. If he can't have fun within the framework of your game, which is pretty good in my opinion, than you can tell him to go elsewhere. I have had players that complain a lot, what I did was put their characters through terrible termiol. Eventually they stopped complaining. Sometimes players have a legitimate beef, but he is in the wrong about the improved critical thing. If he spouts rules, politely inform him that as a GM it is your job to interpret the rule, not him. If the problem persists, don't quit.....just lose him as a player.

Jedi_Staailis
22 May 2002, 09:03 PM
I've both GMed and run a character in Star Wars games for several years now. Yes, the GM can take a hard line in all cases, but I'd suggest a compromise. In my mind, these are the responsiblities, obligations, and powers of the player and the GM.

The gamemaster is responsible for providing a game for the players. Yes, this takes more work, but you don't have to GM. Six to eight hours a week during school is far more than anyone could expect. I'd guess you have the vast majority of holonetters beat in that regard (you've certainly got me beat). The gamemaster is also obligated to provide a realistic and fair game. Players get very upset if they're singled out, or if their characters are arbitrarily killed. Having the rules of the universe altered is also frustrating (that's not to say you can't fudge!). The GM is also required to exert only as much control over a PC as the player wishes. It's their character. The personality and actions of that character are their creation. You can place restrictions on what kind of characters they play, but not what those characters later do. The gamemaster, however, has complete control over the rest of the universe. The GM can make anything happen, and he or she will be well within his or her rights if he follows the minor restrictions set out above.

The job of being a player is a bit easier. A player is responsible for creating a fleshed out character, then having him or her act consistently. If players don't put realism into their characters, why should the GM put realism into the universe? A player must not attempt to cheat. A player must also respect the GM's judgement. He or she doesn't have to agree, and doesn't have to keep quiet about it, but the player must consider the GM the ultimate authority in the game and submit decisions he or she makes about the game. The player must also act reasonably and politely while gaming. A minor objection to the GM's action at the table is acceptable, not dropping the subject after the GM finalizes the decision is not. Once the player leaves the gaming table, all bets are off. They're not a player, and you're not a GM. Of course, we should all expect the proper conformity to societal rules. :D

Using the rules above, you're certainly well within your rights as GM, but your player is not. I hope you don't drop the game based on this one player. The other players are very lucky to have a GM like you.

VixenofVenus
22 May 2002, 11:56 PM
Nova ... I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader ...

OK, OK ... so that didn't make any sense, but I think you get the freakin' drift right!?


Here is what I would do:

1. Tell him again, in front of the group ... "I am the GM, and I am the GOD of this playing universe. If I say something, it is LAW ... and not a government law that can be broken ... think of it as a LAW OF PHYSICS! If you don't like it ... tough, you can talk to me about it OUT OF SESSION ... within the session, we don't want any crybabies or winers. And sometimes, the reason I do something or say something can't BE REVEALED without ruining the whole campaign ... sometimes, fate, WHICH IS CONTROLLED BY ME, the Godly GM, decides."

2. If he still wines, or complains in session ... or still won't let a rule go ... tell him its "Your way or the highway." You don't have to put up with players who won't listen or cope ... usually these are bad roleplayers who are powergamers who just can't stand not being the BEST at EVERYTHING. I finally got a player of mine (who is ok at RPing, but a very good powergamer) to do a Tech Specialist ... then they get captured and sent to Dathomir Imperial Prison ... and he throws his hands up in the air like he doesn't have any contribution to make anymore because electronics and computers are scarce there ... so I understand your problems ....

3. If he won't take a hint and decides to keep coming and complaining ... tell him out of session that his character unexpectedly caught Ebola and died ... (ok ... thats my darkside coming through ... don't really do this one ... but politely ask him that he is no longer wanted)

Nova Spice
23 May 2002, 05:48 AM
Everyone I just want to thank you for your helpful and encouraging advice. Vixen, you won't lose me to the dark side.....permanently, but I have decided that perhaps I should hang up the GM reigns after we finish Tempest Feud. Luckily, we are in the Intermission between Act One and Act Two and one of my other PCs, a member of the boards, Glit-Biter , has created an adventure and I finally get to play an adventure. A small break, but a needed one....
I talked to my player last night, and when he read this thread, Aaron was the last to reply. He conceded last night that its not his place to advise me on Game Mechanics and its just his job to play. Nevertheless, this is not the first time and is even not the worst feud we've had. I have remained relatively open to his "suggestions" and have whithered his abuse for close to six months. (I remember one distinctive time when the PCs met Dash Rendar and hired him to locate some supplies for them. Ths troublesome PC offered to pay Dash 30,000 credits to acquire an AV-1C Combat Armor, stats can be found here at SWRPGNetwork. Dash returned and told the PC that we hadn't located it yet, but would keep looking. The PC then went into a tyrade saying that the armor was not that rare and that I was handling the entire situation wrong. I simply replied: "Dash Rendar, DASH RENDAR, of all people is searching for the armor and just because he didn't find it on the first try, doesn't mean you should become angry. He didn't drop it until a few hours later.) I feel that perhaps the PC will back down for a while. I've talked to my other PCs and they think that I am in the right, ALL of them say I am. This is reassuring, but not as reassuring as knowing that the members of the Holonet support me. I greatly appreciate it.Grimace,Vixen , Dirk ,Staalis, and my fellow novice GM Sil7, thank you for your support and kind words. I will never leave the game, I enjoy STAR WARS too much and the game is fun, but perhaps it is time for my group to get a new GM. Although I do love GMing and feel that I've tried my best....perhaps I need to analyze what we did before this PC began to overstep his boundary and figure out where things went wrong.

P.S. I would also like to thank Talonne Hauk for his reminder that this is just a game, evan for his reminder that this PC is hard to talk to, Korris for his peaceful resolution, and DarthMalaryush for the reminder that talking things through can be the solution.

Nova Spice
23 May 2002, 12:42 PM
The following is a chat transcript between me and my PC (I am drewvolvo and he is JeffH578: He believes that if I posted this thread then everyone on the Holonet would rise against me......I want your opinion on the way I handled it and the way he treats me.


Drewvolvo: Still refusing to talk?
JeffH578: eh?
Drewvolvo: Well you blocked me at the end of that last conversation...that's fine...I know this probably bothers you that Im finally acting like a GM
JeffH578: eh?
Drewvolvo: But it has to be done
JeffH578: no i didn't
Drewvolvo: Well I received four messages indicating that I had been blocked
Drewvolvo: which is fine...I don't care...
JeffH578: well I didn't block you
JeffH578: the only time I blocked you was yesterday
JeffH578: Earlier i just signed off and started playing starcraft
Drewvolvo: That's fine, but just know that we both have the same experience in the RPG, but in a way, we don't....
JeffH578: I agree
JeffH578: Which is why we have different sides of things
Drewvolvo: I've been GMing for about a year and a half...thereofre I think Im entitled to the fact that I know what Im doing and shouldn't be harassed by my PCs
JeffH578: Drew, the thing is that every suggestion I give you, and I'v eonly given you 3 that I can remember in a long time, are meant to help the enjoyment of the game
Drewvolvo: But that's shortsighted thinking
JeffH578: we don't live in the future
Drewvolvo: It may not help the enjoyment of the game...it may help you enjoy the game better, but what about Arthur, Andrew, Clay, and what about the Gm himself
JeffH578: generally I ask arthur and andrew
JeffH578: about what i'm doing
JeffH578: clay distances himself
JeffH578: or at least is distanced
JeffH578: in that he doesn't have aim
JeffH578: and really i dont' think any of my suggestions hve been too dangerous to your fun
JeffH578: i figured you got most of your fun from creating a mission, seeing what we'd do in the mission, and having fun trying to kill us
JeffH578: none of my recent suggestions have made any of those too difficult for you
Drewvolvo: I get my fun by the fact that its STAR WARS....Arthur and Andrew messaged me this morning asking what happened, they read the thread...I told them and both seem to think I should suspend you next time you try to tell the Gm what to do
JeffH578: :;yawn::
JeffH578: that's good but i've never told you what to do
JeffH578: which is the thing
JeffH578: so it's good i'm taking over for at least my missoin
JeffH578: so i can show you what i'm talking about if the oppurtunity comes up
JeffH578: which it might not
Drewvolvo: Look, They KNOW that you have overstepped your boundary, we all do....its not healthy for the game for a PC to be dictating what happens
JeffH578: It's not healthy
JeffH578: for you to constantly change the word suggestion whcih is what i'm doing
JeffH578: to dictating
JeffH578: which is how you perceive it
JeffH578: which is our problem here.
JeffH578: you seem to think i'm dark lord of the sith
JeffH578: trying to control every aspect of life
Drewvolvo: Jeff, I quoted you yesterday: You said and I quote: "Pcs can have the Improved Crit, but NOT NPC's
JeffH578: That was exactly what I was suggesting
Drewvolvo: that is a statement not a suggestion
Drewvolvo: I dont think I was reading anything into that
JeffH578: You weren't reading
JeffH578: around it either
JeffH578: In case you didn't notice when I began the conversation I began it as a suggestion
JeffH578: Which means that anything detailing what I suggested at first
JeffH578: Is still a suggestion
JeffH578: not a command
JeffH578: Very good?
Drewvolvo: Jeff, you practically told me that I CRIT too much, that the game is not fun if the Improved Crit is used.....THAT is dictating or rather attempting to cotnrol an aspect of the game...which is not your place
JeffH578: We always joke around and say that you crit too much
JeffH578: don't take everything so harsh
JeffH578: I never get critted anyway
JeffH578: it doesn't hurt me
JeffH578: at all
Drewvolvo: Yesterday you were not joking bud...
JeffH578: unless you're a jedi
Drewvolvo: You were complaining about how the game wouldn't be fun cause everyone would die because I CRIT too much
JeffH578: No no
JeffH578: It would still be fun
JeffH578: It's been fun anywy
Drewvolvo: that's not what was said yesterday
Drewvolvo: Im simply repeating what was said to me
JeffH578: that's not how you perceived what I said.
JeffH578: We don't have the conversaton
JeffH578: So this isn't gonna get anywhere
JeffH578: Come on man how many times have I been critted in forever?
JeffH578: once, and I wasn't even here for it
JeffH578: I was just making a suggestion about that because I thoguht it would hurt the overall game performance and fun
JeffH578: since then I've changed my mind about the whole thing
Drewvolvo: Look, this isn't the first time you've openly criticized me, the Krayt fight, the repeater, the body armor Dash was supposed to bring you, and I seriously doubt this will be the last time either...unfortunately, the next time you do, you won't be playing in the next game session, no one learns a lesson if they aren't punished......I have sucked up the abuse for far too long
Drewvolvo: I grow weary of it
JeffH578: Drew you don't have to take everything as destructive critism
JeffH578: That repeater was a big part of my character, as was the Krayt fight
JeffH578: Now my views have changed since then about that character
JeffH578: But some of that fudging
Drewvolvo: Oh well....when something bad happens to your character, you dust yourself off and gettback up again...not whine
JeffH578: really ed me over and it was very easily debatable
JeffH578: And I thought, hoped, that you would be able to set aside being the GM out of game
JeffH578: since when we're not playing you're not the GM
JeffH578: and take into consideration my point of view
Drewvolvo: See...your nature is to compete with everyone and to be better than everyone else...that carries over to the RPG...you're naturally a powergamer
JeffH578: Which once you did, we came out with a workable solution, even though I can't remember what it was
JeffH578: Since we started tempest feud
JeffH578: and told you i had given that up
JeffH578: have i done nay power gaming?
JeffH578: I can't think of it.
JeffH578: The only argument we've had since tempset feud was yesterday
Drewvolvo: And when someone goes the wrong way...you complain...see when you start negotiating the rules, and complaining, its like a freakin cancer grows on the group.....Jeff, its gonna take am attitude change for you to not be a powergamer.....and true thankfully that was the only argument, but a good PC doesn't argue with his GM, NEVER
JeffH578: Drew
JeffH578: You are NOT
JeffH578: the GM when we're not playing the game
JeffH578: You are DREW
JeffH578: I am not a PC
JeffH578: I am JEFF
JeffH578: and we can talk about the rules
JeffH578: peacefully
JeffH578: every GM that posts gives an instance of himself and his players talking about the rules
JeffH578: outside the game
JeffH578: And we're not different.
JeffH578: So we can talk about the rules outside the game and it doesn't have to escalate into a conflict of GM vs Player
Drewvolvo: Nevertheless when you attempt to tell me what to do, I am still the GM, and still make the final decision
JeffH578: It can simply end in a logical compromise about the rule
JeffH578: ok?
JeffH578: Dude
JeffH578: I just told oyu
JeffH578: I do NOT tell you what to do
JeffH578: The only thing is that you have it in your head that I do
JeffH578: so anytime you can possibly associate my suggestion with an order
JeffH578: you do it.
JeffH578: stop.
JeffH578: then all our problems are solved
Drewvolvo: I will compromise this argument
Drewvolvo: THE GM IS ALWAYS RIGHT...argument over again
JeffH578: Drew
Drewvolvo: I, Drew, being the GM am RIGHT
Drewvolvo: BTW, Galaxies now has a trailer to watch
JeffH578: There are ways to establish better
JeffH578: which is what i try to do
JeffH578: whenever I argue with you
JeffH578: not tell you that you're wrong
Drewvolvo: Its so presumptuous of you to think THERE IS a better way though...that's the FREAKIN point
JeffH578: And the problem is
JeffH578: that you don't htink that
JeffH578: there is a better way to do it
JeffH578: and are unwilling to look for one
JeffH578: unless god himself comes down and tells you
JeffH578: that there might just be
JeffH578: a better way
Drewvolvo: When you GM, YOU make the rules....and I guaran-damn-tee you I won't complain...cause I know you will have the FINAL authority
JeffH578: Drew
JeffH578: dammit
JeffH578: you miss the entire point
Drewvolvo: No you do
JeffH578: Have you ever read the bible?
JeffH578: I believe you have
Drewvolvo: I read it this morning
JeffH578: And you would agree with me that god is the final authority?
Drewvolvo: Of course...and the GM is the god of the RPG world
JeffH578: uh huh
Drewvolvo: so there we go!
JeffH578: and you might remember
JeffH578: that in some parts of the bible
JeffH578: the humans
Drewvolvo: Its true, I create the game, I run the game, I make the rules, what else would you call me
JeffH578: talk to god and ask him to spare this or that
JeffH578: and god spares it
Drewvolvo: God is nicer than I am
JeffH578: well
JeffH578: i'll be glad
JeffH578: to take over
JeffH578: as gm then
JeffH578: if you think you're better than god
JeffH578: ;\
Drewvolvo: Uh...did I say that?
JeffH578: if you think
JeffH578: you're entitle
JeffH578: d
Drewvolvo: I said God was nicer than I am
Drewvolvo: Dont put words in my mouth
JeffH578: to simply push off
JeffH578: god's example
JeffH578: by saying that
JeffH578: i take your meaning
JeffH578: as that you are better
JeffH578: ;\
JeffH578: if you think you can't listen
JeffH578: to all sides of a story
JeffH578: and come out with the best solution
JeffH578: simply because some jackass who wrote the cr
JeffH578: saids so
JeffH578: then i will be glad to show you
JeffH578: the error in your ways
JeffH578: and even as i try
JeffH578: you continue to disreguard
JeffH578: ;\
Drewvolvo: No, I am worse...a whole hell of a lot worse, because in a way...I am the Emperor, President, and the King....oh yeah some jackass.....yeah he doesn't know what he's doing...pu-leeeezzzzzzzz
JeffH578: and
JeffH578: you are
Drewvolvo: He onyl created the FREAKIN game
JeffH578: still
JeffH578: and even he
JeffH578: sauids
JeffH578: you should take into consideration
JeffH578: and try to
JeffH578: ilsten to your plays
JeffH578: players
Drewvolvo: How would he know any better what to do that Jeffrey Haynes
JeffH578: and their suggestions the best you can
Drewvolvo: Do I NOT LISTEN!
JeffH578: do you not hear?
JeffH578: some suggestions you like immediately and accept, some you dislike and dismiss immediately
JeffH578: that, and you like history, is a mistake, and it's been shown time and time again
JeffH578: all i ask is that you take some time to consider my point of view
JeffH578: and when you find the problem in what i'm saying point it out to me,
JeffH578: i guarntee once you do that
JeffH578: things will be nice and these type things will take 10 minutes
JeffH578: and we will be better off than when we started
JeffH578: replace these type things with my suggestions about the rules
Drewvolvo: This is the first time in a long time that I HAVEN"T considered your point of view...and you can't stand it can you? You can't believe that I'm actually saying NO...it burns you up doesn't it? This is an ego thing. I finally get it!
JeffH578: Hmm
Drewvolvo: The answer to Improved Crit is YES....it WILL BE USED. FINAL ANSWER
JeffH578: I agreed to that
JeffH578: earlier.
JeffH578: ;\
JeffH578: yesterday actually
JeffH578: once i'd simmered down
JeffH578: i saw that i made a mistkae
JeffH578: it's a shame that not everyone can see that
JeffH578: -_-
Drewvolvo: good
JeffH578: it's a shame not everyone can sometimes just swallow their pride and say yea man you're right
Drewvolvo: Yeah I know...if only their ego wasn't too big
JeffH578: one of those people might just be yourself, becaus eI can't think of anytime you've ever even let on the consideration of doing it.
JeffH578: you hit an interesting point, the ego is actually the part that balances the human personality and conforms it to morality
Drewvolvo: Because your EGO is so LARGE that you can only remember what happened yesterday.....in your head you're thinking: "That stupid bastard, who the hell is he saying NO to me. I know better than him. I should be in charge here."
JeffH578: the saying in itself is flawed
JeffH578: if you had a large overwhelming ego
JeffH578: you would be the idealistic human
JeffH578: ;\
Drewvolvo: And it rips you apart that I actually, for once, said No, we're doing it my way
JeffH578: you usually say no
Drewvolvo: which is fine...you'd succeed in the corporate world
JeffH578: you succeed
JeffH578: in everything
JeffH578: .
JeffH578: if you satisfy your morals and yourself
Drewvolvo: I could see you being a very competitive stock broker on Wall Street
JeffH578: I might be.
Drewvolvo: you'd be good at it
JeffH578: hopefully
JeffH578: that would be a good source of income
Drewvolvo: not being able to take No for an answer
JeffH578: Oh I'm sorry/
JeffH578: where did all this come from?
Drewvolvo: will get you far in today's business world
Drewvolvo: Look at Bill Gates
JeffH578: And you'll get nowhere in anything if you always think you're right.
JeffH578: So at least I'll get somewhere.
Drewvolvo: I don't....as far as the game goes...and if you could read, the GM is always right
JeffH578: and if you could read
Drewvolvo: which I can
JeffH578: you might want ot refer to some oif those posts
Drewvolvo: which say Im right
JeffH578: which also say
Drewvolvo: that your wrong
JeffH578: you should take into account your player's opinons
Drewvolvo: which I do
JeffH578: and do you give back output?
JeffH578: or do you just say no?
JeffH578: without your reasoninig?
Drewvolvo: but if you look closely 80% say that you should be kicked out of the game
JeffH578: if I posted this chat
JeffH578: on there right now
JeffH578: they would think differently I believe
JeffH578: because you only expressed your view
JeffH578: of what i was saying
Drewvolvo: Everyone would be more than convinced you are a power-grubbing PC
JeffH578: which raelly wasn't what i was saying at all.
JeffH578: then do it
JeffH578: post this thread
JeffH578: ;\
JeffH578: on the end of that post
JeffH578: and see what they say
Drewvolvo: I am fixing too
Drewvolvo: gimme a sec
JeffH578: BTW Drew, if they agree completely with you, I will make sure I never argue with you again about anything involving this game while you're gamemaster
Drewvolvo: Jeff....arrogance is not a virtue
JeffH578: hmm?
JeffH578: I'm saying that as a reassurance
JeffH578: That I think I'm right here
JeffH578: not to be arrogaant
JeffH578: ;\
Drewvolvo: Stop typing so I can put this on the net
JeffH578: k


Moderators, I don' intend for this to start a flame war and feel free to take it off, I just hope that this will finally get him off my back......I need a break from this......maybe this will provide some closure.....:(

LiquidSaber
23 May 2002, 02:11 PM
Nova, I've been following the thread and it looks to be unenviable position my friend. I run a game of 4-6 players in the d20 star wars, and have run games in both SW and DD, having played rpgs around 12 years or so. I've visited the holonet for sometime now but this is actually my first post :), hi all!

It sounds pretty personal to me, this conflict with one of your players. As a GM it is vitally important to build a *trust* with his players to create a worry-free and fun environment. This trust IMHO is the most importnat quality necessary for good gaming experiences.

As I can see it this players holds little trust, or respect for that matter, for you and your game. As he tends to question and offer *suggestions* that are rather poor in merit (as even he admits when he changes his mind), wounding his pride and ego, as you refuse his offers.

It takes time away from the group and stresses the GM uneccesarily. I hate to say it but it looks like an irreparable situation as far as rping is concerned as it appears to have evolved into a persoal grudge to me. If it were me I'd drop playing with this guy all together as it is not worth my time and energy to rb elbws with someone with such an incompatible personality during my hobby, fun-time. But that's me, it's tragic but the way the wheel turns...

Find a new player I think, you'll feel better for it, your other players will be thankful too. I understand that you need a bit of a break, I hear that, we all do sometimes. Don't give it up though, it is a rewarding experience (as you no doubt already know), and I'm sure your players will look forward to the time you come back to the table to GM.

Best wishes mate!

And always remember, there is no darkside or lightside for the GM but an imperturbable balance. As a person...well, that's a different story, LOL

Tyne Shady
23 May 2002, 02:34 PM
The Gm is not ALWAYS right, no one is, but the GM is the final word.
A good Gm shoud have a rapor with his players, listening to them is part of that, and making a decision around what you know and what you hear is too.
The player though HAS to respect the Gm's decisions, remember he is the final word. If he says some rule is in or out, or if somthing happens then its done. You could then talk to him later about it, after a session, making your point of view, but remember he is thinking about alot more then you are as a player. He has to think of balance, flow and flavour along with the feelings of the other players aswell.
I have in the past disagreed with Gm's many times, but I would never burst out with it in a session, I regard people who are willing to give up valuable time to run games I can enjoy as friends and I give them the respect I give to anyone who I regard that way.
Communicate with each-other about the issue, but respect the fact that his word is law. If I have a problem with a rule or such in game, I speek to the Gm, regardless of what the Gm's opinion is I am yet to find one in 15 years that wont at least listen to me. After that the ball is in his court, he decides and then its final.
Dont be childish, if the Gm does somthing you dont like even if you have spoken about it then get on with roleplaying. Sulking isnt going to make things any better, but maybe seeing the rule in actions will.
When players have a rapor with the Gm it means aswell they are alot more likely to be included in desisions and changes, and that way you know that things changing are not done so without the Gm knowing your opinions or ideas.

I suppose the best example (and possibly the best example of Gming I have seen in my time) is when for d6 I made a character who was a non jedi force user, he was pretty munchkin although he was a very interesting character to play. When I made him the Gm pointed out he would be hard to play without touching on the darkside. I began playing and in a while I found the character was getting more than a small share of DSP's and his outlook on the force seemed to be facilitating it.
Over many story-arcs my character learned his knowlage of the force was built on shakey foundations and unless he made changes the darkside would eventualy dominate him. I then changed the character, rping his change in the force, abandoning over 60D of skills to train them over again in the way that did not court the dark side. I atoned as much as possible for the things he had done.
The Gm didn't once call for me to change things, he saw I was digging myself a hole and jumping in it and he let me, only to create a wonderfull RP experiance over many months of me learning to climb out of that hole.

Respect each others opinions, but the GM is the final word, if you don't like it - either suck it up and get on, or don't play, but don't disrupt the session, you have to remember the other guys involved who probably are sicker than either of you are at the situation.

Kobayashi_Maru
23 May 2002, 03:22 PM
First off winners never quit and quitters never win!!!
So don't give it up. You are correct whatever the GM says goes, but he is also correct in saying when he is explaining his reasons you should listen. Even if you know what the answer is already. You should always listen to the advise given but stand firm on your decesion.

I would consistantly remind him that whatever goes for the PC's goes for the NPC's. If I bend a rule to allow a PC to accomplish a task I remind that player that by bending this rule a NPC will be able to attempt the same thing. If he disagrees I ask, do you wish to continue in that coarse of action. If he does he sets presidence for all other characters later PCs or NPCs. Presidence can be a strong foundation for calls that might be tough to make!

And if you guys haven't even instated the new rules, how does he know if the game is still fun with this rule? I think he is jumping the gun and expecting the worse from the feat. Try to remind him of the good in the feat.

Grimace
23 May 2002, 05:17 PM
Well, just reading the rather lengthy conversation, I would have to say that the whole point of the arguement is completely lost between you two. This problem has progressed beyond what it originally was and gone into a personal grudge.

Plain and simple, you guys need to take a break from each other. One has one idea, one has another. Neither are expressing their points well or professionally. Name calling gets you nowhere, it only inflames tempers.

When you run the game, he should propose ideas if he feels the idea will definitely help the game. If you say no, he should accept it, whether you give a reason or not. In the middle of a game session is NOT the time to be debating rules or suggesting changes in the way things are run. When he runs a game, you should do the same. Respect each other, and things will run smoother.

Basically, though, if this problem continues between you two, you really need to take a break from each other.

Jedi_Staailis
23 May 2002, 05:18 PM
Here's the best advice I can give.

Nova Spice: It seems your player's biggest gripe is that you don't listen. Here's a possible compromise. Your player may make up to three objections per game session, and none of them may be more than one sentence. After the session, hear elaboration about his concerns. Think about them logically (no offense, but you seemed pretty aggravated and confrontational in that conversation, insults of character will not help), and make a final decision.

To the Player: Remember that the GM's word goes for the gaming world, and that he has both the right and the obligation to supress your concerns in session for the sake of the game. You have every right to discuss things afterward, but when he's made up his mind, you have to live with that decision, or leave the group. To make life easier on your GM, I personally would recommend scaling back any powergaming habits you may have obtained. Introduce weaknesses into your character's personality. Work with Nova Spice to create a relationship with an NPC that is fun to play. Believe me, the game is so much richer if your characters are interesting, imperfect, beings. Finally, remember that this is Nova Spice's game. It doesn't matter what we (as Holonetters) do in our games. We are making suggestions, but Nova Spice is under no obligation to listen to them.

evan hansen
23 May 2002, 06:06 PM
I think everyone's had a good point, but Grimace was especially right on. The problem is not that you're a bad GM or that he's a bad PC.

The problem is that you don't like him interupting your games for rules, and he doesn't like your rules and feels justified interupting your games to say it.

The conversation that I would have with him is to simply say, "Look, you were right. I shouldn't get so worked up. you have a right to talk to me about the rules." (Whether or not he's right is irrelevent. Sometimes you have to pretend you're wrong to deal with people who are set in their ways)

BUT! BUT! BUT! You also *must* tell him that you expect that any time he questions your rules, he waits until AFTER the game. Ask him politely to continue dealing with things he thinks are wrong until after a game and talk to you friend to friend -- not GM to PC.

All you have on your hands is a really heated dispute over how to handle rules. That kind of thing happens all the time. The key to making sure you have good games is to make sure that rules issues don't break the continuity of your game.

Good luck. :-)

wolverine
24 May 2002, 03:13 AM
As a suggestion, have one of your gaming sessions be a 'round table'... Open the floor up for ANY player to voice concerns or ideas that THEY feel might help the campaign out. WRITE notes as it goes on, and before you move on to the next person, Address the idea/concern. Feel fre, though to say i will give this some thought and get back to you...

Nova Spice
24 May 2002, 05:36 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Unfortunately my PCs would never tolerate a session where we simply talk; I've tried it in the past and they aren't interested, they just want to play. Which is good in a sense of things, but nevertheless it would never work I don't believe.
In a way, I view this conflict like an insubordinate player attemping to mold the game the way he sees fit. And it is something I won't sit back and accept, and as a GM and as a person, I feel that is my job, to control the game.
And I won't go as far as saying my PC lied, but when he accused me of not listening,that's as an exaggeration. One chooses to remember what he wishes, and that's the case here.
At the end of the last adventure, we finished Act One of Tempest Feud and the PCs advanced to 10th level, allowing them to make Reputation checks to attract followers. Currently we use the old rules, so the DC is 25. This PC pleaded that the DC be moved to 20 like in the Revised Rulebook and I ageed to it.
I work very hard as a GM for my PCs, harder than most I am confident of that, just by the sheer amount of hours per week I put into the game. I have the support of 3 out of my 4 PCs......and the fact is I was very angry in that transcipt, this has been a constant "wave of attacks" that has been happening for close to six months, and I lost my cool. Once again I thank you for your input, I wish I had received a little more support, but I received enough to perhaps prove a point.....but of course according to my PC, I'll never get far in life because I think I know everything......a respectful player to be sure.

evan hansen
24 May 2002, 06:13 AM
In a way, I view this conflict like an insubordinate player attemping to mold the game the way he sees fit. And it is something I won't sit back and accept, and as a GM and as a person, I feel that is my job, to control the game.

I don't there ever was a question that you have to control the game or even that you were right -- because I think many of us think you *are* right.

The question at this point is whether or not you can bring your PC back into the fold in a way that satisfies both of you and ceases these arguments.

If you want to do so, as the person in charge, you may have to accept some unfortunate consequences. You may have to coddle him a bit. If you don't feel that it's worth it, certainly don't do it. But simply telling him that he has to listen to you or that he's wrong won't do it because, for whatever reason, he thinks he's right.

So make him *think* that you now agree with him, and continue to be the GM you've always been. You can do things like this by saying, "Yes, I agree with you man. Totally. Let's think about doing this in the future. But let's talk about it *after* the game. If I'm messing up, just go with it for now. I promise that we can talk after. Cool?" Make him feel involved and like he's getting some control...even though you're still making the decisions.

Hopefully, you can rescue this guy before he becomes too big of a problem. The thing is, of course, that if you take the attitude that "me and my 3 PCs are right and this one PC is wrong," you run the risk of losing him as a player. That might not be a problem for you, but, if it is, you need to consider all means necessary to get him to play and behave at the same time.



And I won't go as far as saying my PC lied, but when he accused me of not listening,that's as an exaggeration. One chooses to remember what he wishes, and that's the case here.


Well, he may honestly think he's in the right. So selective memory will come with the territory. People choose facts to fit their case in *every* argument they make. This is no exception.

In order for him to feel like he's being listened to and not ignored by his GM, you may need to -- again -- coddle him a bit and let him know that, in some of these cases, he might be right. You just need to get him to stop arguing with you INSIDE the context of the game. That's really the biggest problem, I think.

As always, good luck. :-)

DarthGM
24 May 2002, 11:34 AM
I feel I should weigh in here.

It's an interesting thread going on here, one that hits a little close to home. I've had games with problem PCs, players who I'm great friends with outside the game. It's nothing against them or me, but sometimes in games we interrpret things wrong, or how we want to see them, and arguments invariably occur.

I run games because I have a story to tell, and I want to entertain my friends by placing them within it. I don't do it because I like to come up with missions and try and kill my PCs. It's not a contest with me, it's a cooperative effort. My PCs rave about my games and my NPCs and their interactions in the worlds I run them through and everyone has a good time. They examine the plotlines and choose courses of action that could take me well away from where I was intending to send the story, but that's ok, I can be flexible. As long as my PCs are enjoying themselves, and I'm enjoying the story that's forming, then the game goes on happily. When something's out of whack, my game usually comes to a grinding halt in a few sessions.

NovaSpice , ask yourself "is this guy worth the torment I'm going through?" I'm a little biased here, because I get down-right nuclear over PCs who try and pull $#!- like that in my games. If he's your friend, he'll understand your position and you'll understand his. Sounds like this is a sensitive subject with you two guys. Maybe a neutral moderator to help smooth things along. Not a go-between, someone in the room to help keep things cool. Really listen to each other's views, and really think about your own views. Your logic might not make sense to the other. Try and think if you can express your view in another way, or else maybe you need to re-think your position.

Maybe it's a case of running a game with different PCs. A change of faces can do a GM good every once in a while.

Here's my stance on several arguments I've heard; GMs are not God, or infailible. We are human, and we make mistakes. However, we devote 3, 5, even 10 times the amount of time and energy to create these worlds for our loving PCs to run through guns blazing and swords swinging. We have the task of deciding what we want in our world, and what we're not comfortable having. Themes, equipment, races, conflicts, all these are topic that we GMs decide to limit. Can we be talked into changing our view? Hell yeah. Give me a good reason and I'll let anything fly if I think it won't unbalance the game.

PCs respect your GMs, they put in a lot of work for you to have fun. GMs respect your PCs views and concerns, you aren't telling much story without them. Ya ain't God, you're an unpaid referee/bard telling a story of heroism and drama. But you really do have the last word, just expect to be discussing any contraversial calls after the game.

It's a grand social hobby we've got going here. Be excellent to each other, and (send that) party on, dudes!

And if anyone knows how to solve the whole "unpaid referee/bard" thing, let me know... }=]>

Nafai
24 May 2002, 12:13 PM
And if anyone knows how to solve the whole "unpaid referee/bard" thing, let me know..

that's actually a line in my geek code

R+++>$

www.geekcode.com

Aaron B'Aviv
24 May 2002, 07:01 PM
Nova, after reading the conversation between you and your player, I have to say I feel more sympathy for him than for you.

At the beginning of it, i was ambivalent. He seemed not to be taking it too seriously- I think he was annoyed about the frequency of criticals but not overly so. I think he wasn't very serious about his complaints, but I can understand how you could take them seriously. If you put in a large amount of time in preparation for a game and then are criticized for every flaw, it's understandable that you're mad.

But then you played that "The GM is always right" card in a serious manner. Sure, I know GMs who quote that rule to their players, but never in a totally serious manner. It's arrogant, rude, and shows a total lack of confidence in the ability of your players to think for themselves. The GM has the final say as far as rules, but the GM is certainly not always right. When you invoked that 'maxim', you crossed the line, in my opinion.

I think you need to cool down, because you're clearly very angry at this player. I think you need to realize what he's saying, which is that he thinks you're a good GM, he has fun playing, he realized that the idea that NPCs can't get Improved Critical is foolish, and that he sees nothing wrong in complaining when a break goes against him. You need to learn not to take his complaints very seriously, but to listen to them when they make sense.

Most of all, you need to sit down and talk to him, not via AIM (which I've learned has a nasty habit of taking innocent comments and blowing them out of proportion, since you can't see a person's face when he makes the comment) but in person, and figure out whether or not you can keep playing together. This swapping of angry IMs won't solve anything unless you work it out in person.

Nova Spice
24 May 2002, 07:56 PM
I think you need to cool down, because you're clearly very angry at this player. Originally posted by Aaron B'Aviv

I was angry during that little argument, true. I admitted that, but I'm entitled to be a bit angry......I have sat back and let him completely demolish me in front of my other PCs, tearing me down in one specific instance, and I remained cool....I've reached that thing we call a breaking point. After you get smacked in the face a lot, its just time to bow up a little bit instead of letting someone continue to bully you.
I'm sorry you feel more sympathetic towards him but that's cool, you're an independent thinker, which is good. But to me, the matter is not grey, its black and white. I wish I had taken action a long time ago. In a way its not his fault, I allowed him to continue stepping over the line, telling him not to do it again, but it as become an all too frequent thing.
I rarely lose my temper and that was a case of just letting loose. It felt good at first, especially when he informed me I'd never get very far in life (I currently have a 4.0, I think I'm fine) and berated me about how the people on the holonet would view me. Originally this thread was to find a solution to the problem. He arrogantly challenged me to post our conversation here on the boards, and I did, feeling I had nothing to hide. I hoped it would show him I had a little support, and I feel I do. Fact is, if he'd quit thinking he knew the rules better than I and could do things better, I'd listen to him a lot more, like I do with my other PCs. So becaue of this thread, I've created some house rules for use by anyone who GMs at our sessions (we've had 56 total adventures in the last year and a half, I've GMed 52, he's GMed 1, another PC has GMed 3).
But thanks for the input dude. I appreciate your point of view and I'm sure my PC will appreciate it even more. After all, in our conversation, this PC told me to swallow my pride and admit he was right.....its hard to do that when you don't have pride (ego) and you don't flaunt it. That didn't apparently seem arrogant to anyone else? I will drift away again now, perhaps Yoda has a spare room that I can stay in and think in seclusion....B)

J'Raef
24 May 2002, 11:38 PM
NovaSpice:
I too, as someone has already stated, value your views and insites. They have so far helped me in my quest to bring the SWRPG to my gaming group. Thanx.
But down to this heinous retard. It not the PC's decision on what goes on. Now if your like me and you have a limited resource of players then the situation needs to be handled a little more softly than my suggestion. First, especially if your other PC's dont mind, drop a well developed NPC into the campaign, making sure that he has the improved crit feat. Next use the NPC to fill the role that this annoying PC plays (eg- the Soldier) making sure that he is always just a little better than the PC. Finnaly have the NPC get mad over some thing that the PC's does and have the NPC roast the guy.:D
That would be my remedy. Don't take his bull e, your the DM, Hell, you are the rules!!!
And don't hang up the towl DMing is a blast and keep up the good work so that the other PC's can enjoy themselves.

Puck
25 May 2002, 05:12 AM
I've had recalcitrant players before - both as GM and as a fellow player. And they've ranged from the general "hissy fit because I don't get my way" to the out-and-out cheater (back in the innocent days when the GM didn't keep a copy of the character sheet).

Those in our group (and it was a big group - maxed out at 10 with some 'fringe-dwellers' who played every now and then) who didn't toe the party line, as it were, found themselves uninvited from sessions. Or we just plum forgot to remind them it was on. Oops. My bad! :p

The big question here Nova, is do you want this guy to keep playing? Not "should I keep GMing" - that shouldn't be entering your mind!!

If your other players are feeling the same, perhaps you should change the night you game without telling the 'pain'? Or have a break and then 'forget' to tell the painfull one when you start up again.

You've got a handy excuse for when he finds out - "You made it clear that you didn't like my style of GMing, so I figured you wouldn't want to play anymore!" :D

A bit extreme, I know, but worth thinking about. From someone who has been on that bus.

Just don't give up on GMing - seriously, it will be like severing a limb!! (And we know where THAT leads!!!) ;)

Good luck, in any case!
Puck :)

DirkGreystoke
25 May 2002, 05:22 PM
Nova, it looks to me like you have considered the players point of view, which is the hallmark of a good GM. I read your transcript, and besides the fact the your player uses psychological terminology incorrectly, he makes little sense. True the GM may not always be right, but the GM has the final word. As I see it you only have one option, let him be beligerant to someone else. Seriously man, this is a game, and it is supposed to be fun. Any player who gripes so much over a little repeat blaster or a set of armor is obviously not making the game fun for everyone, so just let him go. Good luck.

Glit-Biter
26 May 2002, 01:18 PM
Well.... everyone has certainly been busy.....

To clarify something first off, i am one of the four PCs invovled in this group....

Im glad to know that a few of you also think that NovaSpice's "trouble child" makes little sense when talking to anyone. He has an over-enflated ego, and an undying sense of pride.

This has been going on for over a year now, and this PC has been the heart of 95% of the problems that the group has encountered.

I think i speak for 3/4ths of the group when I say we are tired of listening to him constantly argue the GM(NovaSpice)

NovaSpice has been over-tolerant and more than willing to talk/listen to his complaints (which number in the millions now).

Nova is a great GM and a good friend, and i hate to see him get flamed by one of his players.

There is just no logical way to discuss anything with this player, period. :mad:

Grimace
26 May 2002, 02:05 PM
Just in case, I'm going to provide a slight warning here. A "preemptive" warning.

Please don't flame anyone, for any reason. I realize that this particular subject might have a tendency to provoke a little more tense feelings than most discussions. So far, everyone has been pretty good at keeping things level headed.

So let's keep our heads about us and not start any mud-slinging campaigns. If this thread starts to degenerate into a thread that bashes on the problem player, I'll close it down. Let's stick to posts that can help Nova Spice with his dilema, not attacks of character.

Dr_Worm
26 May 2002, 06:26 PM
Well Nova you and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I gotta say that you are right on the money. I have a player who has acted like this for years. Fortunatlely it goes in waves, so most of the time he is a great player. We rotate GMing between the three of us, so I know it is not personal, it's just his way. He has to argue the rules in game, and it kills the momentum. When he and I are players, and he does this I hate it, but I don't want to make the problem worse. He says "Dude let's figure this out becuse it is important to my character." Screw that! Deal with it later! These "discussions" have been known to last 45min or more. However when I play I am not a confrontational person, so the rules mongering goes on and on (glit-biter this may seem familiar to you).

When I GM, though, I tell everyone right from the top "I am the GM, and I decide what rules are going to followed to the letter or be interpreted. You don't have to agree, but I am not holding up the game for any long discussions." He will still try it, but I tell him "Ok that's fine, you may be right, but this is my game and I say that for now the rule means this." End of discussion! If he goes on I turn to the next player and ask him what his character is doing, if he problem player doesn't want to drop the issue he doesn't get to declare his actions until he has come back to the game.

Your problem player seems too arrogant to understand that just beacuse you don't use his "suggestions", doesn't mean that you don't consider them. This is much the same as mine. If I don't turn over and say "you are right and I am wrong" each time, then in his mind this means I am not considering his suggestions. In your transcript you abviously got mad, but you are human and that is not a unique flaw.

My advice: Well I am not the best person to ask perhaps, as I have kept my problem player. However he is not universally argumentative and only get's bad from time to time. I would say that it seems like you have your other players on your side, so don't take his poop and just boot him.

One thing I will say: When he GMs DO NOT give him a taste of his own medicine! You will loose the favor of the other players, and just look like a childish fool. I trust that you are more mature than this, so this may be an unnessisary warning, but there it is.

SeaTurtle
26 May 2002, 10:38 PM
Yep, I'm the guy we're talking about. I'm sorry for not being clear in what I was saying in that AIM conversation, I'd already told Nova I wasn't up for talking about this kinda stuff on AIM anymore because I'm not coming across the way I want to and because discussing rules on AIM is really hard. (I think someone else already mentioned that)
I'd like to clarify some things before you continue this post though since I failed to do it in that AIM conversation.
As someone mentioned earlier, my "suggestions" especially that one are usually intended as a light hearted idea. I do realize that Nova doesn't HAVE to put any part of them into the game. But the recurring thing when we have these arguments is that given the suggestion he gives his reasoning, which I usually follow with some of my own unless I realize that the suggestion lacked merit (it's my understanding that's usualy how it works when you're trying to improve something, one person suggests, the other person follows with some kind of supportive reasoning, and that process goes on for a little while), but as soon as he gives his the case is closed and there's nothing more to be said. I'm sure when I say this I will become unpopular with the GMs on this board because it seems to conflict with the final authority thing, but it's what this entire argument in particular is based on so I'll say it anyway. In my opinion by immediately closing the book on the suggestion and only giving it time for an iniitial opinion you really aren't doing the topic justice, and you're definitely not looking for ways to improve your game. While the GM is the final authority and I'd like you to know I agree with and understand that, it is NOT conflicting with that rule/view to have a short civilized discussion after a gaming session about a situation that seems to deserve some attention that happened during that game. That's all I'm aiming for, and I know I strayed a long way with that AIM conversation (mostly because I just wasn't willing to be dragged back on to the topic that was such a downer in the previous day), but we are yet to sit down and just even briefly discuss any conflict of interests lately, and that's what I was trying to address. Again this might conflict with some interpretations of that view, but once the game is over and you're sitting around (ideally discussing any flaws in that session's game, even though we haven't actually gotten that far in person, only on aim) there is no such thing as a GM or a PC, you're just people trying to come out with the best possible solution so that you can improve the fun in the game since that's what it's all about.

Puck
27 May 2002, 04:18 AM
Um...Jeff.

It really is a case of what the definition of FUN is.

Yours does not appear to gel very well with the other three quarters of your gaming group. What you consider a 'civilised discussion, others are seeing as out-and-out dissention. That may not speak well of your ability to commuicated your ideas very well - or not who can say - but it appears that when you attempt to 'discuss' something during a gaming session, or immediately after, it doesn't come off.

Perhaps you should take your rule ammendments, sleep on them, have a good think about it - perhaps even canvass the other players, see if they like the idea, or whether they can add something to it. THEN, take it Nova and explain it to him.

And if something happens in game, something that you don't necessarily LIKE (but is, afterall, PART of the game), you have to go with it. You don't have to like it, but you have to deal with it. I liken it to any sport you watch/play - when was the last time you saw a referee/umpire reverse a decision when a player complained? I would be willing to bet on never. Just like an athlete, if the decisions/dice go against you - dust yourself off and keep playing.

It builds role-playing character and makes for a good gaming environment for all of you, players and GM alike.

Remember, it's not Nova's job to try to BEAT you - he's there to help tell a story and, hopefully, challenge you as a player. If you come to Nova with an idea that is for the good of ALL the members of the group, you are more likely going to get further with it.

Pass the peace-pipe Jeff.
Puck :)

Grimace
27 May 2002, 10:46 AM
Puck said it well, but I will add one thing.

I believe that one of the main complaints of Nova Spice was that you were disrupting the GAME to have these discussions. You want to promote a point, have him get involved in a lengthy discussion with you on it. Fine. Don't do it in the middle of the game!

You've mentioned that you don't have a problem discussing these things after the game. That's the best time to do it; never during the game unless what the GM is doing is so totally off kilter to the rules that you have to go "Excuse me...doesn't the rulebook say..."

It is good that you are willing to admit that the GM should have final say on the rules within the game context. If things turn so bad that you don't like it, and aren't having fun, then don't play. Maybe the group you are in isn't for you. Just please pay attention to your admission and let things go while you're playing the game. Puck gave a perfect analogy with the player/umpire thing. Half the time, the ump will toss a player that is too argumentative. Just be thankful you can't be fined in gaming. :p

For both you and Nova, some general words of advice. Communicate. Elaborate. Be patient. Be considerate. Basically, be professional, even though you are only friends. As you can see, things like this can cause hard feelings. So the more professionally you handle it, the better it will be for all in the end.

Most importantly, talk about this AFTER the game, not DURING!

Nova Spice
31 May 2002, 03:02 PM
Well I just got back from vacation. I ventured to St. Augustine, Florida...its quite nice there B). Thanks everyone, because I believe this solved our argument...I got my point across...he got his and I am very thankful for the support. Hopefully this will just blow away with the wind...and we can get on with the game. Once again thanks everyone, even those that gave their support to my PC, for expressing their opinions. I greatly appreciate it and know where to turn now for advice. And I want everyone to know that they contributed to solving this dispute. And that was a goal that I have had a hard time achieving by myself.

:) Nova Spice ;)

Corlan Anders Jedi Knight
2 June 2002, 01:47 PM
I look at this problem kind of like a baseball game. You have to let the player vent a bit but if he holds up the game to long, point to the locker room and say "your out of here" and get rid of him. As a player and a gamemaster I have been on both sides of the line. One time I got really upset with my gamemaster because I thought things should have worked out different because it didn't seem realistic. So I voice my concern for a few minutes (argued pretty heatedly) and then let it go. I didn't want to spoil the game for anybody else. So I think the best course of action would be to have the upset player GM a bit so he can see things from your point of view. (man that Obi-Wan point of view quote would go good right about now, but damn if I can remember it)

I Hope this helps

Nova Spice
2 June 2002, 03:07 PM
Thanks man, but this thread has been solved......no more fuel needs to be added to the fire.....Umm...Mods, do you think you'd be willing to perhaps close this thread? The dispute has been solved and I don't want another relapse if ya know what I mean :D
Thanks ;)