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MFalls
3 June 2002, 07:33 PM
Ok. I'm a little confused on two things with a couple force powers. Ok first off, My player had Combat Sense, and Lightsaber Combat up at the same time. No problem there for me as a GM. But he also wanted to put up Concentration up? Would you allow that? I didn't for the simple fact of him being way to powerful even if it was just for one round. What would you have done? The second question is, the same player want's to know why Climbing/Jumping, and Stamina is not included under Combat Sense. I couldn't really give him a answer. Just that they weren't really combat orrented. But he disagreed with me. So what do you think? I know he'll end up trying to pull this stuff off again and ask why he can't. Thank you for your input.

Slave-1
3 June 2002, 07:41 PM
The way i understand the rules for concentration is that a pc spends 1 rounds clearing his/her mind from all other thoughts save for the one task at hand. I would not allow it allong with any other force power being up. The PC would have to lower his/her kept up powers to use concentration, at least in my games.

evan hansen
3 June 2002, 07:46 PM
These are just some of the reasons that I ditched the WEG system in favor of my own. The Concentration "loophole" is one of the most easily abused and goofy combinations that seem possible under the WEG rules. You can modify rules and create exceptions, but, in the end, it's all just a pain.

You can see it in other posts, but here's my site (the alternate system is linked in the supplements section) in case you're curious: www.umich.edu/~hansene/swrpg

Now, to answer your questions more specifically...

1 - Concentration: We used to allow it or disallow it based on the GM. One side is saying that any Jedi who concentrates for a turn clearly will gain even that much more advantage. The other side says that it unbalances game play. Frankly, it's a goofy situation -- one that I tried to avoid in my system.

2 - Combat Sense: Combat sense helps you fight -- fighting specifically involves the motions of combat with another person. Jumping and flipping and such within, say, a lightsaber battle might actually considered melee parrys or lightsaber rolls rather than jumping rolls. Jumping and climbing and such outside that would simply be skills that would need to be enhanced.

Those are my takes on the rules. But, as always, rules are open to interpretation. i'd encourage you to look at my system. I find it much more true-to-the-films and straight forward than a power-by-power spell-based system.

hope that helped!

Jedi_Staailis
3 June 2002, 08:32 PM
As others have stated, the character can't use concentration. Just point objecting players to the Concentration power description on page 143 of 2nd Edition R&E. "The Jedi may do nothing other than using the concentration power and using that one skill for one action." Your character is running lightsaber combat (two actions), which already disqualifies him for concentration, never mind combat sense. Hope this helps.

Ace Calhoon
4 June 2002, 09:12 AM
The way I run it is to just say that the Jedi can perform one action in the round, be it an attack or parry. A Jedi who concentrates on his attack then doesn't get an opportunity to parry, or attack a second time... Seems to balance it out well.

MFalls
4 June 2002, 11:10 AM
Thank you all for your answers. I fully agree with the Concentration power. That the Jedi has to clear his mind of every thing else. So Concentration has to be used by itself. Every thing is straight on that account. But for the the Combat Sense question. I'm still kinda confused on what I should do on that. (By the way Evan thanks for your link to your site but I've looked at it before and I like the rules I use right now. But thanks any ways.) And Evan I do agree with you on the Jumping part of it. But also they have a new power called force jump. And I don't see any reason in adding Climbing/Jumping to Combat Sense. I don't really see it as being used for combat. I know a character might want to jump over some ones head in combat or what ever. But I don't think that should be added to Combat Sense. My "basic" interpation of the power is that the Jedi slows the battle around him or her and knows when to dodge out of the way of hit's from the enemy and he or she will know where the enemy will be when he or she goes in to attack. So I don't see where Climbing/Jumping, and Stamina come into play. My player says that Stamina should because the Jedi could get tired. But I don't think that's right. So what do you all think?

Jericho_Narcas
4 June 2002, 12:26 PM
I don't agree with your player -- if a Jedi gets tired after just ten rounds of combat then he's pretty badly out of shape. Combat sense is pretty simple -- a straight-up 2D bonus to all attack and defense rolls for ten rounds, and only counts as an action to bring it up. That's all it does -- no more, no less.

Grimace
4 June 2002, 01:01 PM
I have to agree with what others have said. Concentration CANNOT be used in conjunction with anything else. It fairly plainly states that (without actually using those words) in the power description.

Combat sense only adds to attack and defense rolls, of which Climbing/Jumping and Stamina are not. Brawling, Brawling Parry, Dodge, Blaster...those are all attack and defense. Jumping isn't, and neither is Stamina. Sure, both of those normally come into play sooner or later in a combat, but they are not essential in combat. You don't "always" climb/jump nor do you always require a stamina check. But you always need to either attack by hand or by ranged method, and you'll always want to try to avoid (parry or dodge) such attacks.

Yes, conceivably, a person could "jump" to avoid a shot, but that just falls into a normal Dodge roll. For super jumps, the Jedi would also need something like Enhance Attribute or Telekinesis up as well.

So, MFalls, I say your calls on the ruling are right on. You're player sounds like he's trying to find loopholes to make his character super powered. Stick to your guns and maybe you can break him of the habit.

MFalls
4 June 2002, 07:17 PM
Thanks again for all your responses. After I left that last post I got pretty much every thing cleared up with the player. He was still kinda persistant with the whole Jumping thing with Combat Sense but I told him it doesn't include it because it's really not a combat orrented skill. And that there are other force powers whether he has them or not that can increase the other skills he wants. Like Stamina or Climbing/Jumping. But thanks for the input. It helped me figure things out so I could explain it to him.

Arakyd
5 June 2002, 10:30 AM
I have question that, kind of ties in with this one.

Can a Jedi keep his danger sense "up" when he is sleeping?

The Admiral
5 June 2002, 10:40 AM
Arakyd;

No. As per the rules for keeping powers up in the rulebook, 'up' powers are droipped if the character becomes unconscious, therefore, since you're unconscious when you're asleep, danger sense would drop.

Personally, I'd let any Force User add their Sense to their Perception dice for any roll where they're in danger whilst asleep, but that's a house rule.

Arakyd
5 June 2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by The Admiral
Arakyd;

No. As per the rules for keeping powers up in the rulebook, 'up' powers are droipped if the character becomes unconscious, therefore, since you're unconscious when you're asleep, danger sense would drop.

I think that means being knocked unconscious. Are people completely unconscious when they sleep?

Jedi_Staailis
5 June 2002, 11:15 AM
Are people completely unconscious when they sleep?

This one's debatable. Scientifically, sleep is considered an altered state of consciousness. Being knocked out would be yet another state of conscious (there's still plenty of brain activity). How close is it to sleep? I don't know enough about the psychology behind all of this to answer that question.

We do know that Jedi often have Force influenced dreams, so we can say that the Force does affect them when sleeping. It all depends on your interpretation of what danger sense is. If you see it as a power that must be kept up then you wouldn't be able to muster the concentration to use it while sleeping. If it's more of an innate characteristic of Jedi then it would work (at least to some extent) for someone who is sleeping.

daedalron
26 June 2002, 03:19 AM
For the debate about Combat sense and Concentration:

A jedi can use Concentration for a combat, but his attack or parry can be his only action of the round (with the Concentration power, of course). So a Jedi CANNOT use it with Lightsaber combat, which has to be kept up, but CAN use it with Combat sense, which is not kept up.
But if the Jedi use Concentration, he can make only one attack OR one parry, no more. So if the opponent makes two attacks, you can parry only one...
I don't think anybody would take the risk...

For Combat sense, it doesn't slow down, at least that's not the way I see it. Combat sense let you focus your mind on a limited amount of foes, sensing their intentions so that you can know what they will do before they begin their actions. Don't forget Combat sense has a great flaw: when you use it, you are completely oblivious to your surroundings, so if there is another foe you didn't see, you're almost dead (Unless you keep Danger sense active during the combat...)

So Combat sense can't be used to jump higher or better, and therefore give no bonus to those skills. But if the player jump to dodge a shot, that's a defensive action, and he can add the bonus (using the skill Jump or Dodge is a debate, depending on the exact situation...)

For Danger sense, I won't allow it to a sleeping Jedi, but if he succeeds at a Sense roll (versus 10+Control or Perception of his agressor), I would give him a Force premonition of a Danger, but he won't know more than : "you feel a danger"

Hope that clarify...

leighangelj
26 June 2002, 04:52 AM
As for combat sense being oblivious to everything else including other enemies that's not true. According to the rules for this power in Tales of the Jedi Companion, the difficulty to bring combat sense up is increased by +3 per additional enemy

daedalron
26 June 2002, 06:08 AM
The difficulty is +3 to add a person to the ones you take into account when launching the power. And no, you can't add a person you don't know is there. So, even if you succeed by 30, you can't add someone you didn't know was there when you activated the power.
Any person not included when you "launch" the power cannot be seen, so you're oblivious to anything that is not included in your power...

So, yes, this power can be used on more than one foe, but not to many (the +3 thing), so it can be used against a limited amount of foes, as I said before :D