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Oly
7 June 2002, 03:53 AM
The following incident happened in last nights session, should the Jedi be given a DSP?

The group were trying to liberate Wookiee slaves from a small Imperial research station. Things were going badly, in the end only the Jedi was standing. However things werenít hot for the Imperials either, they were stuck in their base with their communication equipment down and their Stormtrooper detachment wiped out.

The officer charged out and tried to deal with the Jedi, he was clearly failing and raised his hands. He made an offer, if the Jedi didnít leave now all the Wookiee captives would be killed. The Jedi, under the impression that the Imperial had to give some form of order or activate a device to kill the captives, lept forward and killed him with a single swing of his sabre.

This is killing a surrendered opponent in cold blood that would normally be rewarded with a DSP.

However the player was trying to save the Wookiees (as it happened he didnít, the Imperial Doctor in the base was watching and killed them herself). He didnít just charge in there and kill him, his thought process (said out loud) was that it was usually wrong to kill the Imperial but that he had to do it to save the captives. He deliberated and then choose his course of action.

So as said, DSP or not?

Thanks in advance,

Oly

Fab
7 June 2002, 04:42 AM
I think the Jedi was misguided in that his simplistic idea of the way things had to be was incorrect, but I don't necessarily think his act was evil, as it was with the best of intentions. I also don't view the imperial officer as having surrendered, he was simply parlaying, but that also implies courtesy on the part of the Jedi not to strike him down. Maybe not a DSP, maybe a warning. Unless he's already received warnings about being impulsive, in which case a DSP might wake him up.

Ravager_of_worlds
7 June 2002, 07:20 AM
The facts speak for themselves. I'm not as moderate in DSPs as Fab.

I'd say Dark Side Point can only be given right after the action during gameplay. As you are deliberating about giving the dark side point, i'd suggest not to give the jedi a DSP after the session. However, I would recommend that should this situation ever occur again (or similar) where the Jedi strikes an unarmed, parlaying bystander, award the DSP.

There is always more than one solution to any problem- when someone thinks their only way out is (blank)... then their emotion is speaking for them even if it is in the guise of 'logic'.

Oly
7 June 2002, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Fab
I don't necessarily think his act was evil, as it was with the best of intentions

Iím a firm believer that evil can exist regardless of intentions. For example Hitler may have had the noblest intentions of saving his country and leading them to, what he saw, as their destiny. Was he therefore not evil?


Maybe not a DSP, maybe a warning

Iíve already let him know that heís sailing close to the wind on this one. Iíll also be bouncing some emails back and forth with him in character as master and apprentice in which heíll get some more warnings on the matter.


Unless he's already received warnings about being impulsive, in which case a DSP might wake him up.

Thatís the rub, Iím not sure that he was impulsive. He deliberated over it vocally, possibly deliberately as he knows a Jedi shouldnít be impulsive.

Hopefully heís had and is going to get enough of a wake up.

Thanks for the reply,

Oly

Oly
7 June 2002, 07:48 AM
However, I would recommend that should this situation ever occur again (or similar) where the Jedi strikes an unarmed, parlaying bystander, award the DSP.


Originally posted by Ravager_of_worlds
I'd say Dark Side Point can only be given right after the action during gameplay.

He knows Iím deliberating over the issue, he was warned pretty much the moment the action had calmed down a bit. I donít see any harm in giving it out after giving it some thought. I donít to be rushed into giving players DSPs and I want them to usually know what theyíve done to deserve it (in game their master giving them a good lecture) and will expect to see more consideration in the future.


Originally posted by Ravager_of_worlds
[B]There is always more than one solution to any problem- when someone thinks their only way out is (blank)... then their emotion is speaking for them even if it is in the guise of 'logic'.B]

He did consider several other options, he acted after concluding that if the officer could move or speak he would set the ball in motion to kill the Wookieeís. It wasnít a casual thing he did and he expressed regret that he felt he had to do it.

Giving a real life comparison Iíd say that in a similar situation the UK police would open fire and shoot someone in a situation like the Jedi found themselves. Itís pretty much the only occasion that someone is shot here when it appears that theyíre an immediate threat to others lives and that only lethal force appears to safe guard others. Then again the police donít have DSPs to worry about.

Basically the Jedi didnít act rashly, he considered the problem, he wasnít angry, he wasnít acting selfishly (he could have taken the chance for a quick exit) and he expressed regret. However he did kill a defenceless man (unless you count the believed defence of killing the captives).

Still not sureÖÖ..

Thanks for the response,

Oly

BrianDavion
7 June 2002, 07:54 AM
in the dark side source book they discuss how the various emotions like anger, fear etc can lead to the dark side... as this situation sounds EXACTLY like the one given in the DSSB I'd give him a DSP

allstar6767
7 June 2002, 08:13 AM
Personnaly, I agree with fab, but I would give him a dsp without rolling for goin to the darkside(D6).

Doc Carlton
7 June 2002, 08:39 AM
Hmm, very interesting puzzle.

There are two points of contention. First, was the Imperial officer REALLY surrendering or just parlaying? Did he have a weapon or easy access to one?
Second, what was the character feeling at the time when the officer made his threat?

It did sound like the Jedi was afraid that the officer would make good on his threat and decided to use "aggressive negotiations" instead for really thinking it through even though the player made his thought process known. In the end, the jedi not only killed a "helpless opponent" but also got the slaves killed. I would recommend giving the character a DSP. However, it's your call.

Another point for you to consider. If the Jedi already have a DSP or several, then give serious thought to giving them another one here.

reliant
7 June 2002, 09:01 AM
I'd give him the DSP. First off, a jedi is not supposed to use his lightsaber to attack, only to defend. He wasn't defending anyone in striking down that officer, regardless of what he thought the officer was gonna do to the wookies. AND the whole "he thought he was doing the right thing" arguement doesn't hold a whole lot of water for me anyway. Just because he meant well doesn't mean it wasn't a DSP worthy event.

Striking down an unarmed opponent is a DSP worthy action no matter how you slice it.

evan hansen
7 June 2002, 09:07 AM
DSPs are entirely a subjective thing. There's no way around that.

Here are some things to consider on the side of NOT giving the player a DSP:

1 - The Jedi's actions were intended to save as many lives as possible. Was Truman evil for killing thousands of Japanese to save US lives? Maybe, maybe not. That's up to you. But consider the motive and intent of the Jedi.

2 - The Jedi may have thought it was an ultimatum. No time for negotiation. Either the Jedi leaves, or innocent Wookies get slaughtered -- Wookies *held* by this very Imperial.

3 - (Very small spoiler here for Attack of the clones, so don't read anymore if you don't want to know): Obi-Wan chops the arm off Anakin's assailant. Was the assailant going to shoot? Well, the cinematography makes it look so. But did Obi-Wan actually know? Is there a way to know for sure? Or did Obi-Wan see/sense the gun and think that she was an immediate threat to Anakin? Was this Imperial an immediate threat to the Wookies?

Overall, go with your gut. If something seems evil, it probably is. If you're saving lives, it's probably not. Is that always true? No. But, when in doubt, I think you just go with your gut. You'll rarely go wrong that way.

Best of luck in resolving this issue. :-)

ilyssa
7 June 2002, 10:34 AM
I think this phrase is appropriate:

"The Road To HELL is paved with good intentions."


"A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense; never attack!"

When faced with such a situation the Jedi should only have incapacitated the Imperial officer not kill him. First of all it was a parley! Honoralble warriors honor the parley. The Jedi struck! Secondly peacful solutions are to be sought first. Never maim when simply talking it out will suffice. Never kill when maiming will suffice.
And third, you said he acted out of "fear" that the Imperial officer would carry out his threat. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering! Beware of anger, fear, and agression...the Dark Side are they." The Dark side is not stronger, only quicker to join in a fight!"

Give him the Dark Side Point! He most definitely earned it
:raised:

horn1974
9 June 2002, 09:27 PM
i would give him a dsp he acted out of fear and took the life of an unarmed man intentions or not thats just evil in my book .if the darkside is anything its subtle i agree his master should lecture him on thinking things through and the saber being the last resort in all situations.maybe even taking his saber away as part of a test /lesson..great master padawan rpging opportunities here.

Lord Diggori
10 June 2002, 09:40 AM
I would give him a DSP.

He acted rashly and killed a defeated foe (directly evil) which resulted in the death of innocents (indirectly evil). In doing this he acted against the very reason why he came. Even if you consider his intentions he still has to live with the deaths of all those slaves on his conscience. This deep regret could take the form of a DSP.

IMHO, I think that perhaps you (GM) could have prevented this by presenting a more full picture of the situation. Maybe ask for a spot check to notice security camera aimed at the Jedi or have the Imperial point one out to bolster his bargaining position.

I didnt here the actual description so I'm quite aware I coulkd be wrong.

Wedge in Red2
10 June 2002, 01:15 PM
I would award a DSP, mainly for the reasons mentioned above.

To my mind, the wisest option in that situation would have been to withdraw: no loss of life to either party (provided the Imperial didn't double cross them). It sounds like the party was in trouble anyway, why not fall back, recoup, then come up with a new plan? Either that, or why not offer a counter offer - let the Wookies live and we'll let you leave in peace? I'm not sure the deliberation used by the Jedi came to the right conclusion.

This may be a slightly naive approach (as I'm not aware of the rest of the circumstances), but I am a firm believer in the saying "There are always other options".

Good luck resolving your issue.

evan hansen
10 June 2002, 02:50 PM
Something you can think about, because DSPs are such a touchy, subjective thing, is issuing warnings. Let a player take back an action. Say, "this man is innocent, and he will not harm these soldiers if you leave. do you wish to continue on this path? pick the option that your character would pick knowing what you now know."

In the situation as it was presented, I don't think you can really give the guy a DSP because he didn't know. He's got to make a split-second decision on a guy that's just threatened the lives of innocent, enslaved beings. At the very least, you know he's going to keep them enslaved. You have to make a quick, hard decision -- one not necessarily wrought with anger or fear or hatred. Indeed, his compassion for the Wookies would seem to be the driving factor here.

But a subtle warning and clarification -- a chance to think the action over with clarity only a GM can provide -- can do wonders for this type of problem. DSPs are irritating to get, especially when you think you were being good and helpful -- not willingly evil. I mean, RPGs are hard to enjoy when you're having a philosophical discussion that rivals the intensity "Of Good and Evil" or "The Prince." :-) So just give that subtle warning to avoid those problems.

Just a little something I thought I'd mention after some of the posts that very hearitly are in favor of a DSP.

Nova Spice
10 June 2002, 04:37 PM
I say give the Jedi a DSP! Hands down that was dark side. And here's why: First off, the Jedi thought the Imperial officer was going to kill the Wookies personally, but as you explained a doctor did it and there was really no way to save the Wookies. But of course the PC didn't know that. Nevertheless, he didn't have to strike him down...Im not sure what type of Jedi he was playing, but the Jedi could have used Force Push, or Affect Mind or some other Force-power to take the officer out of commission, instead of ramming a lightsaber through him. In my game, he'd have a DSP and a burden to carry around. ;)

lrdgrifter
10 June 2002, 06:06 PM
Just a quick interjection, here.
Personally, I think the player did the right thing, but I would still give the character a DSP. Life isn't always fair. Sometimes doing the right thing means doing something you don't like, or possibly something just plain distasteful.
Although the character had no anger or hatered in his heart when he killed the officer, he did strike down a man that had come to the negotiation table with reasonable demands. That's not what I would give the DSP for, though. The DSP would come from being responsible for the deaths of multiple sentients.
Were I the GM in this instance, though, the character would have gotten a DSP for both decisions. If he had walked away, the Wookies would have been executed to remove the risk, giving the Jedi TWO DSP's (one for not making a decision (fear) and one for being indirectly responsible for the murder of multiple sentients).
This one will be an easilly attoned action, anyway. It makes a good opportunity for RP between the padawan and master, after all!:D

Grimace
10 June 2002, 07:09 PM
Well, personally, the situation you put the player into was a "loaded" situation. Doing nothing could very possibly have resulted in the captives being killed. Allowing the officer to live could very possibly have resulted in the officer perpetrating more evil, therefore letting evil to continue. Doing what he did resulted in the death of someone evil, but also in the death of the captives.

Personally, I don't fault the Jedi for killing the Imperial officer. The man was FAR from "helpless", therefore I see no problem with the Jedi's choice. He weighed the options, rather than acting harshly, he felt that the officer had direct control on the captives' lives, therefore he was still hostile and could be dealt with as he did. Sure, the Jedi forgot to factor in many other options, but he was probably unaware of some of those options. That's not the Jedi's fault, nor the player's fault.

As it is, the fact that the captives were killed is the only part that I would issue a Dark Side Point. I would NOT give a DSP for killing the Imperial Officer. I'll say again, the officer was NOT helpless. Weaponless...yes, but not helpless. The Jedi killed an enemy who was threatening the lives of the captives, so he was not acting rashly.

The GM should have had the situation thought out ahead of time, knowing how he was going to react based on what the Jedi did. If you didn't issue a DSP during the game, I would issue one later on. If you can't be expected to react immediately and issue a DSP or not, you shouldn't expect your player to react immediately and correctly. Basically, let this one slide and be better prepared on how to respond with DSPs in future situations.

Yes, the Jedi would probably recieve a DSP, but since you didn't issue one, I wouldn't give one out later if I were you.

Those are my humble opinions.

proxima centauri
10 June 2002, 07:21 PM
Don't be shy to award dark side points. Espescially if your player has few or none of them. The dark side is an easy path to fall into. If the player is really not that evil, he will attune and repent. Don't nurture your players, be mean ;-) but not too mean...

DrPhineas
10 June 2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by ilyssa

When faced with such a situation the Jedi should only have incapacitated the Imperial officer not kill him. The Jedi struck! Secondly peacful solutions are to be sought first. Never maim when simply talking it out will suffice. Never kill when maiming will suffice.
:raised: [/B]

When we play our mythic characters in the Star Wars universe they are framed with a rules system which defines and limits their actions.

There is no usable mechanic for maiming save rolling a 19-20 followed by a second 19-20.

Also, in that situation, the Jedi, if applicable could have used Empathy followed by sense motive or affect mind. However, the amount of skill points is again, limiting.

Also there is no acceptable mechanic for "hostage taking" with a saber, the nearest method would be to engage a grapple and then put the sabre to the officer's throat (which is a pretty non-negotiable DSP)

So, the Jedi, hemmed in by the mechanics of the used system, was seemingly limited with options provided they did not have good modifiers or great rolls for Empathy/Sense Motive/ Affect mind.

Keep in mind the PC's limitations.
-Doc

lrdgrifter
11 June 2002, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by DrPhineas
Also there is no acceptable mechanic for "hostage taking" with a saber, the nearest method would be to engage a grapple and then put the sabre to the officer's throat (which is a pretty non-negotiable DSP)


I would disagree with you on this one, unless you think Master Windu made a grapple roll on Jango Fett, then incurred a DSP for putting his blade to his throat?
That is not an evil act, merely an act of warning.
Even if the Jedi were to take the Imperial as a hostage, as long as the Jedi ensured the officer came to no harm, I would not award a DSP in that type of situation. Again, if the Imperial came to harm in THAT way, I would award double DSP's, so.....

Wedge in Red2
11 June 2002, 06:50 PM
Text containing the spoiled information.

First up, let me say I'm finding this thread really interesting, and thanks to all for their contributions.

Now, there are a couple of issues I want to address (while trying not to regurgitate points already raised).

First, this highlights one of the main discrepancies between the Star Wars universe and the real world. Star Wars tends to be "black and white": you're either good or bad, very few people fall in between. This situation is a shade of grey: it's definitely not good, but can you go as far as saying it's totally bad? We're trying to define where to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and there's no "middle ground". You can't award half a DSP for semi-evil actions, there's no graduated scale. Perhaps a graduated scale would have been useful in the game, where you receive (and this is purely an example) 5 DSPs for mass murder of innocents, while only 1 DSP for killing an unarmed enemy threatening innocents. However, let's stop theorising and get back to working within the current system.

Second, an interesting issue being raised is the consequences of the Jedi's action. Several people have mentioned awarding the DSP due to the innocent wookies being killed. **Spider Man SPOILERS** In Spider Man, we see Peter Parker faced with his uncle being killed by a man he had an opportunity to stop. Would you award PP with a DSP in this case? Where do you call it quits? If I drop a banana peel and someone slips on it and dies, do you give me a DSP? This brings in issues with the difference between recklessness, negligence and carelessness. I think in this case, you can argue the Jedi was reckless in his actions, and therefore deserved a DSP for the consequences.

I think the level of debate can leave you pretty happy whichever way you call this, knowing there is definie support for either decision.

Note: There are issues regarding whether you hold them to an objective or subjective standard, but I'm not going to go into those (because it's long winded legal babble and I'm not sure it adds anything to the argument).

BrianDavion
11 June 2002, 09:20 PM
actually spidy not stopping that crook before hand WOULD net him a DSP IMHO

ilyssa
12 June 2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by DrPhineas


When we play our mythic characters in the Star Wars universe they are framed with a rules system which defines and limits their actions.

There is no usable mechanic for maiming save rolling a 19-20 followed by a second 19-20.

Also, in that situation, the Jedi, if applicable could have used Empathy followed by sense motive or affect mind. However, the amount of skill points is again, limiting.

Also there is no acceptable mechanic for "hostage taking" with a saber, the nearest method would be to engage a grapple and then put the sabre to the officer's throat (which is a pretty non-negotiable DSP)

So, the Jedi, hemmed in by the mechanics of the used system, was seemingly limited with options provided they did not have good modifiers or great rolls for Empathy/Sense Motive/ Affect mind.

Keep in mind the PC's limitations.
-Doc

I am new to the SW game d20 version. In D6 version I seem to recall a way for a Jedi to simply maim (ie: cut arm off etc) an enemy. Are there no "called shots" in d20?:)

BrianDavion
12 June 2002, 11:16 AM
I seem to recall there being optional rules for hit locations in the RCR. and even if there aren't rules for a called shot, I'd have to look.. surely a good GM can MAKE EM UP.

if a GM says "my PCs are limited by the rules" thats actually sort of weak, as a GM my PCs know that even if there is no standing rules.. ask me if they wanna try something, I'll often give em a set of rules for it.

Otonashi
12 June 2002, 11:29 AM
Your boy gets a DSP. There must have been other ways to deal with this situation. Here are but a few options:
Jedi Mind Trick
Wound the officer
Take the Officer hostage to bargain for the Wookies
Bluff
Intimidate

Jedi's have the luxury of being able handle situations not only with mundane skills, but with the power of the force as well. My character has received many a DSP for his errors in Judgment, and I have made him atone for his mistakes. While I am weaker in total amount of force points, I am a far better Jedi for learning my lessons the hard way.

evan hansen
12 June 2002, 08:13 PM
It's important to keep this in perspective. Be wary of small AotC spoilers in this post though, first of all.

It's hard to say in this situation -- or almost any situation -- who gets a DSP. Does Mace Windu get one for killing Jango Fett when a simple Jedi mind trick may have worked? Jango Fett is surely strongly willpowered, but Mace Windu is...well... Mace Windu. How about just knocking all his guns away? How do you know Fett was going to kill Windu versus just shoot his leg? should Obi-Wan have run out with his lightsaber blazing at Slave-1 when the Fetts were boarding the vessel on Camino?

There are always other options. The key is whether or not those options were viable, feasable, or even possible.

So the bottom line is that every DSP is contingent on 1,000,000 things. None of these things are easy. Only in the most extreme of circumstances is a DSP obviously given or not.

I would caution all GMs to not have such a solid opinion on DSPs. They are *very* subjective things because every scene in every movie and every comic and every book is open to human interpretation. So interpret as you think they should be and be consistent about it. That's what's important on a game-by-game basis.

May the Force be with you. :-)

proxima centauri
13 June 2002, 06:31 AM
The way I think of it, gaining your first dark side point is not "very" difficult. That makes your player think twice before they attempt something else. This is the first step in tempting them to the power of the dark side. Of course, you have to decide, as a GM if what was your player's frame of mind and his/her emotions at the time, cause ultimatly, it is THAT that should be taken into account, not the act itself.

Being a "santa claus" GM has always resulted in player abuse, from experience. Be fair, be mean :D

If he acted out of negligence, lazyness, or other "not very heroic" way, give him a DS.

hairyassedsarge
14 June 2002, 12:39 AM
Ok. Your guy does not get a DSP. It was a situation which demanded a split-second decision - I'm surprised he even took the time to deliberate over it.

It's said above that "a peaceful solution was offered". No it wasn't! "Leave now or all the Wookies will be killed" is not an offer of a peaceful solution. For all your boy knew, they may have been killed anyway. The situation would be no different to that if the officer had his finger on the trigger of a bomb.

Just because someone doesn't have a weapon doesn't mean they're not dangerous. That officer threatened many innocent lives. It was the Jedi's duty to act to stop that. So the officer was killed in the process - tough ◊◊◊◊. He brought it on himself.

It's suggested above to not give the DSP for killing the officer, but to give it for the resulting deaths of the Wookies. Huh??? The Jedi didn't kill the Wookies. The Doctor did. Give the Doc the DSP.

Bear in mind that your Jedi went to that place to free the slaves. He knew there would be conflict, and he knew he would have to take lives. He might not like it, but tough ◊◊◊◊ - it's something he has to do. It's not evil.

Evil is when you take life for pleasure or personal gain, or out of hatred or a fit of anger, not when you do it during a military operation designed to save innocent lives. Are military snipers evil? Are Spec Ops soldiers evil? How about SWAT cops who kill hostage takers to ensure the safety of the hostages. Maybe they're all evil? They kill when it's not self defence.

Jedi are peacekeepers. But not everyone in the galaxy wants to make peace. That officer certainly didn't. The peaceful solution would be if the officer surrendered and handed the Wookies over to the Jedi. He did pretty much the opposite. The Jedi had to make a judgement call. He did the only thing that made sense in the situation. The best you can do is try to protect the innocents as best you can, and let the guilty draw their own fate upon themselves...

"Killing is always wrong - but sometimes it's the only solution. Sometimes it's the best solution."

darthbane
17 June 2002, 03:21 PM
I pretty much agree with the , uhh, Wookiee sarge. A peaceful solution was never offered. If you think that saying leave or the slaves die is peaceful, you are sorely mistaken. On top of this, the officer was clearly hostile, and may very well have been attempting to trick the Jedi into lowering his Saber to give him an opening to injure/ kill him. You threw a character into a situation where he had to make a split second decision and, after deliberation, made the decision he thought was best. Diplomacy was never really an option.

You also might want to consider the fact that the Jedi had his fallen companions to think about, on top of the slaves. How was he to know the officer wouldn't try to kill them when he started to leave. The Jedi would have been foolish to turn his back on an enemy that was willing and able to fight.

Also, you're sending the Jedi into a loaded situation, and you should have realized this and planned accordingly. Since you apparently didn't plan you are now in the situation of having to decide whether or not to give a DSP after the session is over, which is a big no- no in my book.

shadow master
17 June 2002, 10:10 PM
In my option and experience, a Jedi should not attack with a Lightsaber, unless he or others are in direct (and sometimes indirect) danger. This situation is a toughy because of the conflict. The Imperial was unarmed and apparently not a threat to the Jedi, but somewhat of a threat to the Wookiees. Another aspect I have experience, a Jedi should not go into "Hard" negotiations unless the situation is dire. The Jedi should have tried to negotiate with the Imperial, even to the point of Intimidation.

The Imperial was threating to kill the Wookiees, and that he never specified how. Now, the Jedi could have tried to probe (by questioning) the Imperial on how he would kill the Wookiees, and like all classic bad guys, he would have spilled his entire plan if he didn't feel threatened.

But I believe that because of the lack of negotiation attempts, and he just went for the quick glory on impulse, he should get the Dark Side Point.

Kaziganthi
19 June 2002, 02:06 AM
I'd roll with what sarge said,
Giving the fact that it was an imperial officer who gave the offer,
chances are that if the jedi had left the wookies under the officers
control, they would have been worked harder to death or had a few
of them executed for the embarassment the imperial officer was caused
by allowing a team to infiltrate his facility.

So in my humble opinion for the Jedi no DSP

daedalron
19 June 2002, 03:24 AM
I would give him the DSP:

He just could have stunned the imperial, which would have the same effect (in his thoughts), and would have prevented to kill a surendered opponent (even if he didn't surrender, he was unarmed and not dangerous).

Lord Byss
19 June 2002, 04:34 AM
I would have given a Darkside point. It matters not that he thought he was doing right, he wasn't. Surely, as other replies have said, he could have taken another coures of action. I will say for the record that I am very strict when it comes to Jedi and DSP's. The action described seemed rash, ill thought through, and was not the most non-violent way of solving the promblem. The Jedi or Wookies were not in any immediate danger, the action was unjustified. However, one poster (apoligies, cant remeber name) said you shouldn't go back in retrospect and award one for something that happened last session, which I totally agree with. Put him on a yellow card, if he does it again, give him a nice DSP.