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daedalron
19 June 2002, 02:27 AM
One of my PC possess a disruptor pistol (from WEG Gundark supplement).
But can a lightsaber deflect (or at least parry) a shot from that kind
of gun? (this kind of weapon disrupts the matter at a molecular level
by an enormous amount of energy.)

Same question for a firearm. It will not be deflected, but if the Jedi
parries, is the bullet destroyed (and so stopped) or melted (in which
case, with its cinetic, the Jedi would be burnt by melted iron...)

Daedalron

Fab
19 June 2002, 03:45 AM
I like to think of lightsabers as a very fine blade of whirling energy that operates like your disruptor, by stripping electrons out of the molecules it comes in contact with. So I wouldn't know why it wouldn't repel the like charge in your disruptor. Likewise, since the slug from a slugthrower would have its electrons removed, the molecular matrix would fall apart and be consumed as well. In my campaigns, the hum is the sound it makes as it consumes and vaporizes the air next to the blade. If it can eat air, I don't know why it wouldn't eat up a bullet (molten or not). Now maybe a large caliber tank round would throw some molten debris around, but a standard caliber slug should probably be consumed.

Of course, other models of how lightsabers work are out there and may produce different results.

Ravager_of_worlds
19 June 2002, 05:51 AM
remember a lightsaber doesn't instantly vaporize stuff... quigonn took a while on that blast door... darth maul taunted obi by sparking the lip of the pit... and various wizards gamer letters to the editors indicate that it takes time for a saber to go through material.

i liked the electron stripping model... but wouldn't that just make positively charged atoms?

i'm thinking also about speed of bullets- they go very fast, something like 150 m/sec for high powered rounds- and i think the speed of the object might just 'spark' off the saber like darth maul's slashes at the pit. at any rate, i think a slugthrower or a stun grenade is the best recourse if a force user decides to murder you.

Fab
19 June 2002, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Ravager_of_worlds
remember a lightsaber doesn't instantly vaporize stuff... quigonn took a while on that blast door... darth maul taunted obi by sparking the lip of the pit... and various wizards gamer letters to the editors indicate that it takes time for a saber to go through material.

i liked the electron stripping model... but wouldn't that just make positively charged atoms?

One answer deals with both points. What holds molecules together is electrons. If you can remove electrons, the atoms in a molecule will cease to want to stick together. If you put a lightsaber blade (according to this model) into a substance, at the point of contact you'll end up with positively charged ions that no longer want to form a molecule which means you've effectively severed the substance at that point. So yes, you end up with positive ions that don't stick together any more. That equals a hole or a slice or a cut or whatever you want to call it.

The second item is that some substances (like metals) are very free flowing with electrons. That is one electron can get passed along among many different atoms or molecules. What you end up with is a substance that is a) very conductive to electric charge and b) would take longer to strip enough electrons to create the severing effect I spoke about. Therefore it would take some more time to "cut" through a metal or other conductive material. That would explain why Darth Maul's quick taps on the lip of the shaft only sparked and didn't slice into it so much, or why Qui-Gonn took some time to "melt" through the blast doors on board the Trade Federation ship. Had those doors been made of wood or some other substance that didn't share electrons as well his slice would have cut through like a hot knife through butter.

That's why I like to think of the lightsaber as working in this way. In my mind it fits most models of the way we can see lightsabers behave as well as making sense from my limited physics/chemistry point of view. Perhaps someone with more of a physics and/or chemistry background can either further support or pick holes in my theory.

grizzly
19 June 2002, 06:49 AM
Ravager you might want to revise up your slugthrower rounds if you use 150 m/sec as "fast" in your game. It's majorly subsonic... not quite half the speed of sound which is 340 m/sec.
Drudging up some of that old army learnings I had many moons ago the Australian SLR (aka FN-FAL) had a muzzle velocity of 823 m/sec, the M-60 is about 840 m/sec, the F88 Austeyer (Steyer AUG) 930 m/sec, and the M-16 came in at 991m/sec.
Still... at 100 meters could a force user react appropriately in the 0.1-0.12 second it would take any of these rounds to reach them?

Fab
19 June 2002, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by grizzly
Still... at 100 meters could a force user react appropriately in the 0.1-0.12 second it would take any of these rounds to reach them?

I should think so. Don't forget, a Force user isn't using reflexes to block or redirect the shot, he or she is able to see enough into the future to know where the round will be at a given point in time. The lightsaber is being swung into position before the slug even leaves the chamber. I think of it as the slug is being fired into the lightsaber (since it's in position before the bullet is), rather than the lightsaber is swatting at the passing bullet. So a Force user could block something coming at the speed of light, if he or she knows about it before hand.

daedalron
19 June 2002, 08:13 AM
I too think he can have his lightsaber in the path of the bullet, but will the bullet be "stopped"? Even if the lightsaber is VERY hot, it will need some time to vaporise or melt it. And the bullet has its cinetic.

For the disruptor pistol, the question was asked after seeing the video game Jedi Outcast, where a lightsaber can't block a disruptor shot (but the game doesn't really follow RPG rules, since this disruptor is a sniper and from WEG, it can only shoot to 7m)

Fab
19 June 2002, 09:11 AM
Well, in my games the rules are what they are, not inclusive of any "findings" from EU sources, especially a video game. So I would think a disruptor bolt would behave the same as any other energy weapon charge and be deflected.

As far as melting the bullet, the lightsaber is not "hot". It has nothing to hold heat, it has no form, just a tightly swirling mass of energy itself, but it can "melt" things. It's like how electricity isn't "hot" but it will burn or melt things it comes in contact with.

While my version of lightsabers strip electrons down at the molecular level it would have more spare electrons to strip than the same size piece of wood, for example, so it would take longer. So you're probably right, in my RPG world the slug would get cut (melted) in half by the blade but probably not completely incinerated. Quite a bit of the kinetic energy of the bullet would be lost upon contact with the blade, so I don't think shrapnel from the round would be lethal necessarily, but they might bounce in different directions, causing very minor penetrating damage and/or very minor burn damage. Nothing that's going to knock a person down as such, but something you wouldn't want flying down the back of your shirt!

Lord Diggori
19 June 2002, 09:51 AM
I've dealt with these questions in a campaign before. Though I'm not as technically inclined as many here these were my solutions:

1.)Sabers can deflect disruptors. It is established that lightsabers can deflect vehicle blasters and it seems that is essentially (if not technically) what disruptors are: very high power blasters in a small package balanced by limited range and ammo capacity.

In the video game they may have them work how they do to provide a more challenging obstacle for the player. Closing distance and hacking can get tiring quick. Ultimately it's what you and your players like most.

2.) Sabers vaporize bullets. Although it does take Jedi a while to cut through several meter thick reinforced metal a slug is only a few centimeters of metal. I think that the resulting residue would be like embers and nothing more game-wise than descriptive detail.

If your players get to cocky though have someone chuck a small piece of baradium (the active ingrediant of thermal detonators) at them. :D

Ravager_of_worlds
19 June 2002, 10:39 AM
thanks grizzly on those muzzle velocities... it's been a while since i leafed through my guns n ammo mag (where is that thing?)

but still, the point is that even pulling electrons off molecules occurs at a certain rate set by the laws of physics... however we all know what happened to the speed of light in star wars... however, as a gm, i dislike the idea of some item being 'indestructible' (d&d) and 'all powerful', which for many is the idea of a lightsaber in SW. i've had sabers break all the time in my games, more or less for stupidity...

so far, i can only see one weakness to the saber's strength-

water.

according to JD(?) in a wizards gamer (9 or 10) water would short out the saber- at any rate, only one weakness is tough. after all, sentient beings made it, not perfect deities.

however, i did like the brush up on chemistry... i'd forgotten about ionic forces and valence shells at the moment- that's why i switched from Chem E to English! :D

Jaggard
19 June 2002, 12:01 PM
This is my super secret take on light sabers. So shhh.
The actual blade is no so much a blade. The princaple of light sabers is a weak energy force feild but the feilds are thick and oddly shape as they are projected by the facets of the jems. due to the angle of projection and shape of them there is a location about a fraction of a unit from the emitter where feilds collide. If you've seen energy sheilds and force feilds come in contact with object the become oppaque and luminous. The effect is that the energy from these contacts causes the nearby atoms of air or anything else to be excited to a state of plasma but the area is small. So in essensce you have a force feild that has enough give to it to allow it to be forced 'into' a blast door. but strong enough to deflect things at gret speed. I like to think of it like silly putty if slowly forced against and object (said blast door) it will begin cutting, or in the case of energy disapateing surfaces as blast doors are (they do have to stop blasts), heat the surfaces rapidly. Think of the heating more like a plasma torch of butane flame from cigar lighters. But things moving at high speed will ricochette like throwing marbles at a sheet of silly putty. The harder you hit silly putty the harder it resists you. In the case of light sabers it the energy of impact (kinetic or otherwise) that determines the force with which it is repelled. Bullets may bounce away as molten globs, blaste shots bounce away a little less coherant (concentrated), I don't know about disruptors and what kind of energy they produce but if sheilds and force feilds stop them or deflect them then so would a light saber I guess. And as for light saber vs. light saber, when the outer layers collide they produce an effect much like the center of each blade where it's layers collide. at the point of contact the energies of each blade cause them to become hard to each other producing a flash of plasma from the surrounding air (sounds like lightening) and heat as they iteract like solid items. This might be used to explain the difference between the Qui-Gonn blast door and Vader catwalk pillar discrepancey. The blast doors disipate heat but not fast enough for a full on continuous plasma discharge, but the pillar doesn't have to disapate heat and melted like butter at the speed of contact of the more powerful sith blade hit it. Darth mauls taunting swipes barely touched the flooring that was somewhat reflective to energy and must have had some heat disipating reflecting ability (it was a reactor of some kind right? I thought it was a place that looked like it dealt with high energy situations).

Ha Ha. How do ya like that? :D It's just off the top of my head and may be somewaht unclear about some parts of it; but if you can find holes i'll try to BS my way through them.

lrdgrifter
19 June 2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Ravager_of_worlds
so far, i can only see one weakness to the saber's strength-

water.

I have some real fun with this stuff. When one of my characters creates a saber, I make them do ALOT of busywork for it (I don't like to encourage everybody to be Jedi, so I make it VERY difficult on the players that do).
They have to give a run down of all the parts that went into the saber, a schematic of the "guts" of the thing (they don't have to be actual schematics, just something that says what attaches to what and why it works), an in-depth drawing of the finished product, and at least one quirk for every personalization (ie. it has a DNA recognition switch, but due to the computation time, it takes a full round to deploy, etc.).
This way, you can really get to them with weaknesses. Like, say, if there's ony rubber gaskets for seals, it's still not immune to sand! If it's adjustable length, consider the mechanism. Is it a knob? Does it stick out? Is it close to the emitter? Would they have to take a hand off of the grip to use it? If so, when they go to do it in combat, give them a Def penalty for dropping their guard.
The Jedi is extremely powerful. Do your worst to balance the class a little. 8o :D

wolverine
19 June 2002, 12:28 PM
That's why, when i come across a DJ in combat, i spend a FP and call the shot to hit the saber itself. Not him... 4 of 6 tries is not a bad ratio, especially if the DJ is already involved in combat deflecting spomeone elses saber.....

Jedi_Staailis
21 June 2002, 07:38 AM
In my games, Jedi can deflect both disruptors and projectiles. I hate to bring in a system refernce, but characters in d20 are harder to hit because "A Jedi learns to deflect blaster bolts and other projectiles with his lightsaber."

In Episode I, we see that it takes roughly ten seconds to cut through a significant section of blast door. The blast door would be very thick and dense, and a fair portion of the heat generated would be expanding throughout the blast door, making cutting through much more difficult. Bullets are smaller and lighter. I'd think they would be vaporized when coming into contact with a lightsaber.

Disruptors, being overpowered blasters, would deflect the same way any other blaster bolt does.


For the disruptor pistol, the question was asked after seeing the video game Jedi Outcast, where a lightsaber can't block a disruptor shot
I tested this out while I was playing last night. I was able to deflect disruptor shots. In the game, they're harder to block than blasters, but if you face the opponent, you don't get hit.


It's like how electricity isn't "hot" but it will burn or melt things it comes in contact with.
The heat you're referring to is probably the result of the power generated by the current going through a resistor.

Puck
22 June 2002, 01:40 AM
But wouldn't it be ... well ... cooler :D for a Jedi to use telekinesis to stop the projectile inches from his face? Or to just dodge the bullets tradjectory?

Or is this too much like a certain Keanu Reeves movie? :D :p

Puck :)

MassassiC
22 June 2002, 03:19 AM
What holds molecules together is electrons. If you can remove electrons, the atoms in a molecule will cease to want to stick together
Hate to be the fly in the ointment, but electrons don't hold atoms together, nuclear forces (not electrical charges) hold atom's together, so what would have to happen for atom's to "fall apart" (and there's the danger of Fussion-type reactions and the consequent radiation and energy released) is the lightsaber to actually interfere with this nuclear bonding, and that would make it more like a disruptor-type weapon, which is extremely nasty (not exactly a Jedi-type of weapon, but Kyle gets away with it).

Going to JK2 as an example of the original question though, the lightsaber is powerless against disruptors (but not their wielders :D ).

Jedi_Staailis
22 June 2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by MassassiC
electrons don't hold atoms together, nuclear forces (not electrical charges) hold atom's together.
Yes, nuclear forces hold atoms together. However, Fab specified that he was talking about molecules, and both covalent and ionic bonding are dependent on electrons.


the lightsaber is powerless against disruptors
I still haven't found a site that either confirms or denies this, but I've managed to deflect disruptor bolts in JKII (not the scoped ones, just the normal shots).

Edit: I found a site that says the disruptor can be deflected. It's nice to see confirmation that I'm not hallucinating while playing. :D

http://www.captured.com/strategy/jedioutcast/weapons/index3.shtml

MassassiC
23 June 2002, 05:36 AM
Fab specified that he was talking about molecules
Ooops. SOrry, misread :(

Never knew that about the Lightsaber and the Disruptor though... never used Force Sight as never really saw a use for it apart from fighting in the dark... now I'm going to have to replay from Nar Shaddaa and give it a go :D

Lord-Grunt
25 June 2002, 01:54 PM
Well I would like to remind you people If you have the Star Wars Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology go to page 22 and 23. Read then think about it.

For all you poor souls who dont have the book heres a quick over view. In the Ranged Weapons part of the book they have the SSI-RUUVI Paddle Beame. It is used by "mysterious aliens" the Ssi-ruuk. They are energy weapons that stun and paralyze their targets. The book says it is lethal at extremely close range. It is used in a book to kill someone. And guess what? Lightsabers cant deflect the Ion Beams they shoot out. Want to know why? Cause they are on a different frequency. Luke was able to tinker with his lightsaber to alter the frequency so it could block them, but then he couldn't block regular laser blasts. It also passes through armor and shields.

So I think you people are putting too much reality into a fake thing. It obviously cant burn air silly also. If so some dark jedi would make a giant lightsaber type thing go to a planet flip the switch and watch it burn off all the oxygen and then you wouldnt have a habitable planet. And I think it gives off heat. And the jedi can see the future but even if they could they couldnt stop somethen comin at them at the speed of light they can see the future but very short. So seeing the future doesnt mean you are fast enough to move your body or arm to block something. Think about it if what you say is true they would never die and no jedi could kill another they would see the future and move their blade to block it Qui-Gon would have seen Darth Maul's handle punch and ducked. So what you say is alittle far fetched.

The bullet thing you throw something through a big wall of flames. Yes the wall of flames could partially melt something but would it slow it down I dont think so. Or you would see flames being used as walls. So the Light Saber blade would melt the Bullet alot, but it is going so fast it would just keep going full speed and hit the jedi. Though I have read some where I think in the Weapons and Tech guide, but alas I am too lazy to look. It said a lightsaber can change its matter or somethen to make it like solid I could just be going crazy, but Im pretty sure I read that it could change its intensity. Ok fine I looked it up just now. If you have multiple crystals in your saber you can change the length and intensity. Im not sure what the intensity bit it but if someone has idea go ahead and post.


I will also apologize for something I said I said some where in here I think the lightsaber gives off heat. Well. I was wrong book says "...the blade itself has no weight and emits no heat..." so obviously it doesnt.

MrKenpoJr
25 June 2002, 03:41 PM
So I think you people are putting too much reality into a fake thingWell, it is Star Wars. Much like professional wrestling, it isn't real.


And the jedi can see the future but even if they could they couldnt stop somethen comin at them at the speed of light they can see the future but very shortA ) You contradict yourself here.
B ) How, then, do you explain the ability to block blaster bolts? If they can't see into the future, and can't move fast enough to stop something coming at them at the speed of light, how is it done?


Think about it if what you say is true they would never die and no jedi could kill another they would see the future and move their blade to block it Qui-Gon would have seen Darth Maul's handle punch and ducked. So what you say is alittle far fetched.Yoda said something in a little movie called The Empire Strikes Back that I think is pertinent here (and forgive me; I'm paraphrasing): "Difficult to see, the future is. Always in motion." This means (to me, at any rate) that what you see isn't always what is going to happen...just a possibility. Therefore, in your example of Qui-Gon Jinn, maybe in the particular version that he saw (assuming he was looking that far in advance in the first place) didn't have a 'handle punch'.

Lord-Grunt
25 June 2002, 04:10 PM
Yes I know its fake just they are trying to put like chemestry and physics into the equation I just dont think it will work out I hated chem anyway.

Well how am I contridicting myself the blasters dont shoot at the speed of light or no matter how bright red or green they were you wouldnt see them at all like practically before they pulled the trigger you would be shot bullets probably mover faster then lasers. And its something someone said in another reply thats they could even block something goin speed of light


Well I just said that because somone said they have the blade were the blast is going before the guy even pulls the trigger jus sayin prob dont see that far in future

Fab
26 June 2002, 04:31 AM
Qui-Gonn said it himself, (paraphrased) that Anikin could see slightly into the future via his contact with the force, and that's what made it seem like he had fast reflexes. Jedi may have decent reflexes, just as a martial artist does, but they can also see slightly into the future at all times. Now sure, it's not 100% right, that's why sometimes Jedi get shot and sometimes they bounce the blaster bolt back, but the point is, they can see into the future which means no matter how fast a projectile travels, there is a chance the lightsaber will be put there to block it.

Second, the only thing I go by is the movies. It's the only thing Lucas goes by, so it's the only thing I do too. I see no evidence of anything that would contradict my explaination of how a lightsaber works. I mean, the books are notorious for messing things up, and once one author puts it out there following authors are required to keep it going. For example, I don't agree with the EU treatment on how the lightsaber uses a crystal through which energy is passed to make light. But that being part of the story, in I, Jedi by Stackpole he has a lightsaber being used, even for a second, through a piece of costume jewlery. Now jewels and crystals have internal matrices that would produce some odd effects in such a setup, but a piece of fake jewlery is glass, or plastic. So how then does the blade even work, at all, through a piece of fake jewlery? It wouldn't. Does that make I, Jedi a bad novel, not as such. Does it mean I as a GM can throw everything out but Ep I, Ep II, Ep IV, Ep V, and Ep VI? You're darned tootin'.

As far as it sucking in the air near the blade, remember it's a little bit of air and it's in close proximity to the blade, so to destroy a planet you'd have to have a lightsaber-like contraption that is at one time in contact with most of the atmosphere. Build that and you deserve to be able to destroy the planet with the flip of a switch.

Lord-Grunt
26 June 2002, 06:06 AM
HAHA true true. Well that is a prob trying to follow all the authors, but you are right when you say a GM can change anything. Just the stuff I read in the Weapons and Tech book made me think thats all.

Ace Calhoon
26 June 2002, 09:50 AM
To begin with blasters are not lasers. Lasers move at the speed of light (as nearly as I know), and are therefore faster than bullets. Blaster bolts (energized tibanna gas) move substantially slower.

Second a lightsaber isn't nearly the same thing as fire. It actually appears to have some form of substance... The blades can lock together, and Qui-Gonn seems to put effort into cutting through the TF blast door. Passing through a lightsaber blade would slow a bullet down, passing through a fire wouldn't.

As for disruptors, this depends entirely on how the weapon itself WORKS. If it actually has a physical component (such as a blaster), it should be blockable. If it simply spits energy at its target, it may or may not be deflectable (this depends on whether you interpret the blocking of Force Lightning in AotC as a property of the lightsabre or a jedi power).

As for seeing into the future, keep in mind that SEEING isn't ACTING. You probably don't even see a full second into the future, and can still be caught by surprise. Seeing the future gives you more time to react, but doesn't always give you the time that you need.

Lord-Grunt
26 June 2002, 10:56 AM
I agree with you on the time thing. But still I dont think that passing through a light saber will slow somethen down jus doesnt make sense to me.

Plus their are the Ssi-Ruuk weapons that arent blockable unless set on a diff frequency. Even if you dont think that should be used I think its an interesting discusion piece.

Fab
26 June 2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Lord-Grunt
I agree with you on the time thing. But still I dont think that passing through a light saber will slow somethen down jus doesnt make sense to me.

LIke was mentioned before, in the movies and in my games, lightsabers have substance. They cast shadows on the floor and they don't pass through each other. I think of them as a saber that makes its own light, not light that makes its own saber.

And from my description of how they work (at least in my universe) it does make sense why conductive materials slow the lightsaber down. I mean, look at the evidence, Qui-Gonn took a while to melt through a part of the blast door while Obi-Wan cut Darth Maul in half in the blink of an eye. That's (in my games) becase blast doors have a whole lot more free roaming electrons than Sith Lords do.

If passing though a lightsaber wouldn't slow something down, then Qui-Gonn should have been able to cut through that blast door and get to the Neimoidians as fast as he could trace a circle in the sand with a stick.

Lord-Grunt
26 June 2002, 02:15 PM
I dont know Qui-Gon plunged his saber right into the Thicker Door when they closed second door. It went right in he barely pushed but it took time melting I dont know. Jus sayen

barna284
29 June 2002, 07:54 AM
I think you should really see this site, it has an incredible amount of info on lightsabers and very complete speculations on how lightsabers could work...

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

On the issues raised here...

1) I donŽt think lightsabers can stop proyectiles (slugthrowers); if you see the movies, you realize that a lightsaber makes very thin, almost invisibly so cuts. Therefore, a bullet parries would be sliced in two, not very effective and potentially dangerous for the Jedi and bystanders. I think slugthowers is one of the ways to show Jedi they are not all powerful .

2) Lightsabers do not consume air, produce heat, etc. I think that looking in this site I marked before youŽll find a lot of interesting proposals on how lightsabers work, along with a BUCKETLOAD of canon-bases info.

Odd_Bloke
29 June 2002, 10:57 AM
Guys, two words : Space Opera. :D

If you feel like making disruptor bolts/beams unblockable, go ahead! GM's choice.

If you feel like making slugs carry on as molten metal, go ahead! GM's choice.

Oh, and a Jedi will react equally well to something travelling at lightspeed as he would a tennis ball. If he can see a second into the future, he has a second to act, whatever the speed.

silvfox
2 July 2002, 05:24 PM
I have one interesting point to offer... depending on the Era you are setting your games in. Go ahead and let lightsabers easily deflect projectile weapons... but then arm someone (such as an Imperial Inquisitor) with a slugthrower containing cortosis (sp?) alloy rounds... then give the Inquisitor enough levels to get two attacks a round. Let's see, the first attack is stopped by our Jedi hero, but the act of doing so deactivates their lightsaber for one round... and the next bullet gets to hit against a much lower Defense.

Jake Sunspot
4 July 2002, 08:01 PM
Thats Nasty.......I Love it. :p