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wolverine
19 June 2002, 03:04 AM
Ok. Time to put this forum to part of it's intended use. We have already have several threads of 'this happened' what can i do.

SO lets try to make one THREAD for all that type of stuff. Each week, somoene posts a series of situation that happened in a gaming session (Irregardless of if he was gm or player). We say what we would have ruled IF we were the GM.

SO to start. Here are 2 from my own anuals....

Situation 1: Party on a ship, 2 crew in the turrets, 1 in engineering, 1 polot, 1 co-pilot. THe last guy, mans the nav comp/sensor station. THey are in hot pursuit of a fleeing priate ship who has taken a informant prisoner. The player on the nav/comp says he is programming the sensors to link to the nav comp, so when they detect the enemies ship going into hyperspace, it will start to project a course. Then he emphatically states, the moment the Nav comp bleeps, indicating it has a course, he will pull the lever. I asked him 4 times to make exatly sure he was doing that, WITHOUT ANY CHECKS on the course. Dude spends a FP, and rolls his 6d (3d normally) in astrogation, getting all 1's. What would you say happens.


Situation 2:
1 jedi get's caught in the blast of a gloop grenade. His friend tries to run by, so he does not get shot, screws up and falls hands first into the gloop. Jedi caught, says he will move his hand to his lightsaber and activate it so he can cut himself out. I explain he is stuck, like a web spell in AD&D, and so cannot reach the saber. He says to sith with it, activates TK to turn it on.. For note it is in a under armpit hidden sling/pouch pointed UP!!!
THe other guy, spends a FP to double his strength from 2d+2 to 5d+1 (rounding from 4d+4), and gets all 1's on his attempt to break free form the glue.........../

reliant
19 June 2002, 06:44 AM
Sounds to me like you have a bunch of people who need to start making new characters...:D

Okay well you asked, here's what I would do to them:

Situation 1: Well you could just bounce them into a planet and vape the whole troop of them, but that wouldn't teach them anything. Maybe instead have them come out of hyperspace directly on top of the ship they were chasing. Since he was in such a hurry he never bothered to think that if they entered at the same vector they would come out at the same vector. So they exit hyperspace in a really messy way and smash directly into the ship they were chasing. The good news? The crew gets to live to fight another day... The bad news? Their ship is toast..

Another alternative for situation 1 would just be to send them to the wrong place. Instead of chasing the pirates they end up hypering completely the wrong way and end up at the other side of the galaxy (thus losing their prey).

Situation 2: Well the Jedi is pretty screwed for firing up his lightsaber while it's pointed at himself. I'd say he takes the damage (and maybe loses his arm in the process). Since the other guy critically failed as well, you could have the saber fall free of its sling (after chopping through it) and land on him (then he takes the saber's damage too).
Or the guy who failed the strength check just gets so tangled up in the goop that he has no possible way of getting out, short of someone coming along and cutting him out.

proxima centauri
19 June 2002, 07:02 AM
Sit 1:

So he got a 6. Still twice as much as the minimum he could have had... 3.

I say something wrong happens, I might have asked for some kind of dice roll to determine whether the ship sustains light or heavy damage, but I wouldn't blow the ship up by having it cross a planet or something. Not a good way to get brownie points from your players!

The guy still spent a force point, so in any case, that saved the day.

My call, they get lost, way the hell in gone, the ship crosses through an entire asteroid belt through hyperspace, and eventually, the hyperspace goes off, burnt out. So the ship is almost destroyed, they're lost, and can't make another jump through hyperspace... nice adventure hook! ;)

Sit 2:

Again, sustains lots of damage but survives. Hey... sometimes an heroic act doesn't turn out perfect, right?

Random Axe
19 June 2002, 07:02 AM
Sounds like a couple of great opportunities to start throwing a ton of complications into the party's lives.

1. Rolling all ones on an astrogation roll, regardless of how he was doing the roll, ought to result in a complete meltdown of the astronav computer. Not only do they fail to follow the suspect, the computer crashes and eats all the astronav libraries, and the ship's safeties kick in to prevent it from entering hyperspace without any vector coordinates. I would say no repairs are possible, only a full replacement of the astronav computer. Hopefully they are still close enough to a civilized system to set down and start shelling out the shekels for a new computer...

2. Absolutely according to the character's own notes about how his lightsaber was held, definitely calls for a permanent maiming and loss of limb. The other guy who spent a FP to try to Strength his way out of the web (which by the way, he should be rolling 4d+4 absolutely, not rounding over to the next die code) shouldn't really suffer as much, you can have some fun with him, but don't maim him. Perhaps there's some glop residue stuck on him, that even when he gets cut out of the mess, will never come off or clean up.

Grimace
19 June 2002, 07:54 AM
1. I'd have them take off after the ship they were chasing, but since there was slight differences in the vectors their ships were in (there's no way the two ships could have the exact same vector from the exact same point in space) and due to the fact that the person didn't check the hyperspace route before jumping, I'd say that the roll resulted in a rather "roundabout" route to the same destination point....just a few hours later than normally expected.

Basically, due to their hurry to catch the person, and the poor roll, instead of coming right out of hyperspace on the guy's tail again, they end up arriving at the location a couple 3 hours or so after the person they were chasing showed up.

2. Cut off the Jedi's arm for stupidity, and as others have said, make the other guy so stuck in the goop that there's no chance he can get out unless someone else cuts him out.

darkvet
19 June 2002, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by wolverine

]SO lets try to make one THREAD for all that type of stuff. Each week, somoene posts a series of situation that happened in a gaming session (Irregardless of if he was gm or player). We say what we would have ruled IF we were the GM.
Good Idea Wolverine!

So here's my Dilemma:

A few sessions back I was GMing a battle against some Storm Commandos. After my players had taken them out they quickly grabbed their helmets(which have all kinds of benefits, like +2D perception and stuff like that). If I had had forethought at the time I would have said the helmets were damaged, after considering I felt they were an unfair advantage to my players, who are already quite skilled.
One of my players was GMing he next session and he had the Alliance confiscate the helmets for research purposes(wish I had thought of that :P ), but one of our players, refused to give his up. The GM was exceptionally forgiving and said he could keep it but it would take a few weeks to modify it to fit a wookie.
Now he has been bugging every session about getting it back, as well as bugging for a force pike, and bugging for a combat land speeder, so I gave it too him, but then it got damaged in combat and is unusable. Now this guy had something like 7D damage using a staff in melee combat and I think a 5D in blaster, but he wants to be given all the toys to get advantages. I think a force pike and the Commando helmet are a little excessive, but he think I am being unfair by not letting him have them.
I would like some other people's input on my descisions.
Thanx
Darkvet

proxima centauri
19 June 2002, 09:40 AM
You're the boss.

Don't be a santa claus. Spoiled players makes whiny babies.

Lord Diggori
19 June 2002, 11:44 AM
Wolverine's Scenario #1
I think that with the roll of 6 a ship's safeties would kick in and not allow the jump to lightspeed. If it is enough to jump I say have the pilot and co-pilot make a low difficulty Intelligence, Perception, or Mechanical check to realize that when the target ship stops they'll rear end it or be abruptly thrown from hyperspace and take damage. The characters are often wiser than the player's in my experience :D

Wolverine's Scenario #2
Once again allow an easy Perception check (kinda like a stupidity save) for the Jedi. It just cant be heroic to be maimed in such a way. If the Jedi cant muscle his way out the glop like his companion, they'll both be stuck for a while.

Darkvet's Scenario
If a PC is getting out of control with requests and such just make him pay by keeping things realistic. A free Wookiee wearing an Imperial Storm Commando helmet is obviously a Rebel, at least in an Imperial's mind. Another way to go, which maybe too late to use now, is that the helmet is part of system that integrates the whole armor suit. No suit no bonuses.

Military ordinace is hard to come by an must often be on the invisible (black) market to be bought by civilians. Charge him 3-4 times list price to reflect this.

As long as you keep things reasonable no one can really say you're being unfair.

wolverine
19 June 2002, 12:20 PM
DAMN!! Didn't think there would be this much response so early...

But i will hold off for a couple of days more, before i give up the game on my 2 senarios....

As to darkvets..
Easy. Unless the players were stating where they were shooting, and unless the imp's didn't dodge, the shots hit their head., By bye helmet. As to his refusal for giving up the helm. FIrst, is he a fully fledged rebel. If so, have him brought up on charges of insubordiunation. Secondly, have him thrown in the brig.
As to the force pike / speeder. No prob. Opps. Sorry, but the ship your party is using on this mission cannot store the speeder for the trek. And the pike, can always get chopped...

Jaggard
19 June 2002, 01:00 PM
Wolv 1) Have them make the jump but have the engines get a glitch that they have a percentage chance of getting stuck in hyperspace mode, lock in the on possition so to speak. But do it for each engine so that when they exit HS one or more of their engines keeps going , it rips free and goes through the ship like a torpedo and just keeps going. You could check to see if it hit's anybody else or even obliterates their prey.

2) Cut his arm off. But before you do make him act the following scene in character. When he lops his own arm off he is not thinking but acting angry and aggressive he's slipping to the dark side. If he gets madder about that it's getting worse and just keep telling him he's headed toward the darkside. Meanwhile have the other character get even more tangled and his breathing obstructed, and in the way of a jedi on his way to the darkside. If the jedi does get free his last choice for good or evil should be does he attack an imobile ally who needs his help but is in his way or does he consider the other player as good as dead and his goal more important. The choice he makes decides if he is light or darkside. (one armed at that). If things go his way, he can struggle to redeem himself.

Dark
Be a pain in the hairy neck. He wants the helmet fine has he taken into account that his head being bigger has the eyes farther apart? In useing the helmet he may get the advantages but any length of time causes head aches, migrain headaches. (if he can't play it well just keep saying it to him, Your characters head hurts; as you walk toward the small village head pounding you see people dressed in colorful clothing that just seems to make your headache even worse ect. it will provoke anger and annoyance that would acompany such headaches) If he persists the headaches will lessen withing a month or three but now the helmets benefits don't seem to be working as well. But the player has become addicted (sorta) to it. Without it he is near blind and headaches set in, so meals are unpleasent and his smelling and other senses are impeeded. If he wants to use them he has to take it off and be blind and get headaches till it's back on.. He's screwed his eyes up and they'll never get back to 100 percent. But he can be weaned from the helmet if he's willing to go through the headaches again.
The force pike fine (they shock yes) well lets just hope he has the glove needed to use it properly (if he's used it before it should be a percentage chance for the following, he's just been lucky until now) or he may get hit by a spark. A spark in wookie hair oh sh--. Now we get to see what a naked wookie looks like; even if he is badly burned. Another player might mention that all those who use them seem to need gloves. Some burns don't let hair grow back he's going to look bad.
He can have his speeder if he steals it from Vader. Meanwhile point out that the other players are doing better by advancing their characters them by being inspector gadget. If he wants gadgets tell him you'll kill off his wookies and he can be a Jawa. He needs to learn to role play.

darkvet
19 June 2002, 01:44 PM
Thanx for the tips folks! Some very good ideas that I have never even considered. I especially like the idea of the sparks on Wookie Fur:D We may have ourselves an interesting adventure next time we get together.

As always everyones advice is much appreciated

Regards
Darkvet

AWingJock
19 June 2002, 01:46 PM
Hey I know from personal experience something like that would be taken pretty quick ... Of course, you could always do what I did in that situation (With the helme that is)... Let some ISC's make a really nasty visit to kill the wookie. Not only are they mad because someone killed one of them, but they have the audacity to wear illiegal armor around like it's nothing. Definitly a stupid thing for a character, who should know better, and if he aint then he deserves what he gets in the game.



He he he Evil aint I?

wolverine
21 June 2002, 02:03 PM
Ok y'all. Bean spillage time

1) The characters ship got a massive power drop as the hyperdrive went kaputt, and tore a hole in the engineering compartment. THey had to flee back to the planet, then edjected while the ship crashed. Only 1 fatality (the guy who pulled the lever, flubbed 2 consecutive strength checks from falling), and their ship was toasted.

2) The lightsaber guy lopped his arm off, and lapsed into unconciousness, while the other guy managed to rip himself free, but without any skin on his hands, and also dislocated his elbows.

Moff Neomen
24 June 2002, 07:19 AM
That's a good way of ending it (though the player who pulled the lever must be cursing his rotten dice karma :P).

There's been two times for me when unmapped hyperspace jumps have caused problems. Once I had them smack into an asteroid, severly damaging their ship. The other time, their engines got messed up (more so because of killer droids that were ripping through their ship), and they ended up popping out at a random system and engaging in a high-damage crashlanding on a moon. I find that a great way of dealing with errant hyperspace jumps; you can send the PCs on a great side-campaign as they try to fix their ship, deal with whoever or whatever lives where they crashed, and try to get goin again while their prey gets away.

Lord-Grunt
24 June 2002, 07:32 PM
Um well a blockade runner who is only interested in money finds out where the rebel base is cause the tards trust him haha. So he passes a note to the GM. I copy this planet down and I jump to the closest Empires major base. He looks at him and out loud says no no you dont man your character wouldnt do that. And being evil/selfish yes he would but the GM wants him to follow the story so he doesnt let him. The blockade Runner wanted to sell the info to the Empire for a very very high price he also knew they were gonna make a large offensive and where so means mucho dinero. So gettin lots of money which is following my charecter and what he would do.

What would you guys do?

MrKenpoJr
24 June 2002, 07:49 PM
What would you guys do?

...?

I didn't understand a thing you just said, aside from that which I quoted.

Wedge in Red2
24 June 2002, 11:21 PM
I too am LMAO. Stupidity combined with bad luck...but it does happen. (BTW, I hope these are not real scenarios. These players need a lobotomy ;). I'm always grateful that I have good players. )

Wolverine's Scenario 1:

Ah, the possibilities are endless. :D First, if they have just rigged up the sensors to the nav computer, then perhaps the info that gets through to the nav computer is garbage (and this is what the crap roll represents). I mean, if you don't test the interface, how do you know it'll work? The computer could spit the dummy, they could have a random jump, end up in the middle of no where with their nav comp and hyperdrive fried.

Also, their course is not just direction, but speed. If their hyperdrive is faster, perhaps they shunt the other ship from behind in hyperspace, creating a nasty mess. They and their enemy fall out of hyperspace with crippled ships in the middle of nowhere. They have to work together to get back to civilisation, perhaps jury rigging one ship with parts from the other. Something like the movie Enemy Mine (but in deep space rather than on a planet).

My general rule is this: reward innovative ideas, and don't penalise too badly for crap luck. Plus, do what's good for the story.

Wolverines Scenario 2:

Hmmm. The Jedi is in a bit of a predicament. If I'm feeling generous, I would maybe let him ignite the saber and say "the blade hums to life, emerging just behind your shoulder slicing through the goop. It creates a nasty rip in your clothes, and comes dangerously close to cutting off your arm". If I'm not feeling generous, I have him lose an arm. Maybe he gets rescued by his master (or his master finds out) and said Jedi has a hell of a lot of explaining to do before he gets any more training (his actions are a bit rash, and the consequences, oh my! How did this guy get through basic training?).

The guy falling in the goop is stuck. No if's or but's. Bad buzz on the wasted Force Point.

And I hope the rest of the party starts using their head and realises the trouble they're in. Give PC's who solve the dilema good XP/CP, the idiot Jedi gets next to none, and the guy who fell over was just unlucky, he gets an average amount.

Jon

wolverine
4 April 2003, 10:42 AM
Resurecting this one, with another humdinger of a situation..

Party consists of, say 7 players, none are jedi, and 3 are Reb spec force operatives. On one of their missions, 4 of them get captured. The other 3 managed to flee back to reb base, and once done with the de-briefing, are denied a chance of making a rescue attempt.
How do you handle the other player's objections (the ones wishing to make the rescue attempt) and what do you do about those in jail....

Crymoon
7 April 2003, 04:57 AM
Depends of my future plans for them... If they lie with Rebels:
I'd let the 3 a possibility of taking a leave to privately get them out... of course if they do it unofficialy, using only their resources etc... The best case would be if they just took some time off (being ill or sth) without letting the HQ know anything.
For the 4 in jail... I'd give them 1 or 2 chances for an escape if they fumble - though luck... tortures and waiting for the other 3 (if they're lucky) or death.
I had a similar case a few years ago in a fnatasy setting where 2 out of 3 PC got caught and thrown into jail... The 3rd let himself be captured just taht they all could be togather and then they escaped...

wolverine
6 August 2003, 10:35 AM
I love these things!!!!!!!!!!!

Just got done checking, and i have not posted this before...

OK another strange situation for y'all.

Players (6 in all) are attempting to infiltrate an imperial outpost (200 or so imperials which they HAVE BEEN advised of) and not only plant bombs to disable/destroy the 6 AT-ST walkers, but the communications dish. They trigger the alarm, but through what ever mess up's do not get out, before a good portion of the base is mobilised against them. The Base commander is under strict orders from the sector Moff, AND the Sector General/Admiral that any rebels are to be eliminated from the picture with extreme prejudice.

They have a lot of angry and more than willing to kill, imperials against them. Other than having the base CO completly ignore orders (which would get him and several of his underlings killed by the moff), what way can i have the players survive?

Dr_Worm
6 August 2003, 11:06 AM
Depends on the era, but I assume Rebellion. I think that one option may be that the Moff needs some expendable that he can use for his own politcal dealings against another Moff. So he gets some kind of hold (will kill loved ones...have to take a atidote or poinson will kill them) on them and wipes their identities off the map. Perhaps he sends his own elite SpecOps guys in to extract them under durress, and leaves burned bodies for the CO so that he can claim victory. Then they are forced to be stooges for the Moff until they can break free (2 or three distastefull adventures).

Innuendo
6 August 2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Lord-Grunt
So gettin lots of money which is following my charecter and what he would do.

What would you guys do?

I'd try to think about what is of more worth for the fun of gaming.

Following strictly to the code of my character, or trying to help the GM telling his story.

From my personal experience, it takes quite some playtime to foresee how a character might react to a given situation - and even with this knowledge a GM is prone to expect an inappropriate reaction from the character (or player).

As a GM, I'd give the rebels a good chance to have somebody in their crew who would suspect this PC's betrayal (I do not believe in naive soldiers) and do something before he reaches the imperials. If the rebels manage to stop this PCs, I'd think about some sort of trial, or anything... the rebels also have to have a place where the put POWs. If they're not able to stop the PC, the Imp probably would check on that Intelligence gathered by the freelance spy (before an offensive). In the meantime, the rebels should have managed to evacuate, leaving no obvious traces behind. Perhaps then, the Imps might put the PC to a penal facility - after a fair trial:D . Nobody mocks the empire...

On the other hand - I might as well do nothing and have the PCs his way. It's fine to run an evil campaign if every player in the group agrees to do it.

As a player (with the "helping the GM" thing in mind, I'd try to find a reason why my evil/selfish PC would not do such a thing. e.g. helplessly falling in love with a female rebel. Even evil people fall in love - sometimes it's the beginning of a healing process, sometimes it's the beginning of the jedi purge.:)

Sarge
7 August 2003, 06:58 AM
Grunt, I'd give that blockade runner a Dark Side Point for selling out the Rebels. (If you want to run greedy evil character, you have to be prepared to take the DSPs and lose the character to the Dark Side when he goes over the edge.)

I'd also have the Imps gladly accept the info and then screw the character over royally. Instead of paying him, they'd charge him with conspiring with known rebels and throw him in prison for interrogation. (Hey, Imps are evil, too. If you want to make deals with evil people, you have to be prepared for them to do evil things to you.)

If the PC somehow escapes that situation, I'd give him a chance to reform and decide to throw in his lot with the Rebels. I have a low tolerance for betrayal, but I'm a firm believer in redemption.

Random Axe
7 August 2003, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Resurecting this one, with another humdinger of a situation..

Party consists of, say 7 players, none are jedi, and 3 are Reb spec force operatives. On one of their missions, 4 of them get captured. The other 3 managed to flee back to reb base, and once done with the de-briefing, are denied a chance of making a rescue attempt.
How do you handle the other player's objections (the ones wishing to make the rescue attempt) and what do you do about those in jail....
My question for this is, why were they denied their attempt to rescue? Is it because the characters were considered too incompetent to pull it off? Are the 4 intended by Rebel Command to be written off? Or is Rebel Command going to send in its own operation?

I would need to know what the nature of their orders were, but in essence I would handle it by encouraging them to go outside the regular chain of command, have them be able to recruit their own ragtag team of other outlaws for this special op. They risk being ostracized by the rest of the Rebel forces for acting agains orders, but in true Dilbert fashion, if they succeed, they get promoted!

wolverine
7 August 2003, 10:59 AM
All 3 of the ones wishing to do a rescue attempt are the spec force ones. They were refused because their skills are needed elseware, and if they died in the attempt it would be costly. Even worse if they were captured..

wolverine
10 September 2004, 08:30 AM
Thread resurection... Had these happen this year...

Bounty hunter jet packs through smoke into a forest. Crashes, wounds himself (spends 4 cp so as to not be dead!!!!). While on the ground, gets his fuel tank shot by an imp. Next round, he decides to use his jet pack again to fly in an arc back to the bunker, while fuel is leaking down his back..... Would it go off? When??? How much damage would it do????

Team of remels have succeeded in infiltrating base, and are getting ready to set a bag of explosives (25lb of detonite!). Player making the demo roll gets 12 (target number was a 11) for the roll, but also has a 1 on the wild die...... What would you have happen????

And lastly (happened in a 1 shot game ran by some people using our room, kind of an open game). Ship is in hyperspace when the pc's realise the circuitry to disable the hyperdrive (and therefore bring the ship out of hyperspace) is busted. So one kicks on his lightsaber and hacks at the hyperdrive... What happens????

Vanger Chevane
10 September 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by wolverine
Thread resurection... Had these happen this year...

Bounty hunter jet packs through smoke into a forest. Crashes, wounds himself (spends 4 cp so as to not be dead!!!!). While on the ground, gets his fuel tank shot by an imp. Next round, he decides to use his jet pack again to fly in an arc back to the bunker, while fuel is leaking down his back..... Would it go off? When??? How much damage would it do????

In flight, the fuel is probably so well atomized and left behind quickly enough that said BH should realize that huge flaming tail he's leaving means that if he's still wearing it when he lands, he goes BOOM! This makes for an interesting eject & roll to survive landing. :D



Team of remels have succeeded in infiltrating base, and are getting ready to set a bag of explosives (25lb of detonite!). Player making the demo roll gets 12 (target number was a 11) for the roll, but also has a 1 on the wild die...... What would you have happen????
I'd have whatever timer they're using start spooling down significantly & obviously faster than expected. Rebels must evac ASAP to avoid being hopelessly mixed in with Impburger.

"What happened Trooper?" "We're not sure Sir. The Rebels suddenly just broke and ran." "Another glorious victory for the Emp-" >BOOM< :P



And lastly (happened in a 1 shot game ran by some people using our room, kind of an open game). Ship is in hyperspace when the pc's realise the circuitry to disable the hyperdrive (and therefore bring the ship out of hyperspace) is busted. So one kicks on his lightsaber and hacks at the hyperdrive... What happens????
This has been covered in the Black Fleet Crisis/Yevethan Novels.

It requires a working Hyperdrive to jump both into and out of Hyperspace. Anything without a working Motivator apparently drifts in Hyperspace forever, or until it smashes into something like a star.

Rogue Janson
10 September 2004, 03:16 PM
Bounty hunter jet packs through smoke into a forest. Crashes, wounds himself (spends 4 cp so as to not be dead!!!!). While on the ground, gets his fuel tank shot by an imp. Next round, he decides to use his jet pack again to fly in an arc back to the bunker, while fuel is leaking down his back..... Would it go off? When??? How much damage would it do????
I agree with Vanger on this one. As long as he keeps moving fast enough the burning fuel should trail behind him. As soon as he slows down he may have problems.

Dr_Worm
10 September 2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by wolverine
Thread resurection... Had these happen this year...

Team of remels have succeeded in infiltrating base, and are getting ready to set a bag of explosives (25lb of detonite!). Player making the demo roll gets 12 (target number was a 11) for the roll, but also has a 1 on the wild die...... What would you have happen????

A success is a success, in my games. I might make the sucess more messy than it should have been, or perhaps some light damged from too fast a fuse, but they still met the DC.


And lastly (happened in a 1 shot game ran by some people using our room, kind of an open game). Ship is in hyperspace when the pc's realise the circuitry to disable the hyperdrive (and therefore bring the ship out of hyperspace) is busted. So one kicks on his lightsaber and hacks at the hyperdrive... What happens????

I think Vanger is right on this one, but I would have warned the player or given them some sort of check to determine if they knew this. The player was acting on knowldge of engines in our world while the character could know more about motivators in his. If I had not given the character a warning (like I had forgotton or something) then I would determoine that the ship is pulled out of hyperspace but is badly damaged due to skipped subroutines.

JediJester
15 September 2004, 08:27 AM
Situation 1: For this, I'd simply have the party's ship come out of hyperspace right on top of the pirates ship. The ships colide with enough force to get them stuck together. Then I'd have a running gun battle aboard the dying ships for control of the only working life pods.

Situation 2: Simple. Jedi loses his arm and the strong man gets so entangled that he can't get out without outside assistance. Upon seeing their helplessness, their opponents take them as prisoners. Now they get to try to escape :D.

Random Axe
17 September 2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Team of remels have succeeded in infiltrating base, and are getting ready to set a bag of explosives (25lb of detonite!). Player making the demo roll gets 12 (target number was a 11) for the roll, but also has a 1 on the wild die...... What would you have happen????

Either the timer might suddenly speed up unexpectedly (as mentioned above), or just the opposite: the detonation is inexplicably delayed. If the PCs are hiding nearby to oversee the demolition, you might get them suspicious or antsy about the explosion not happening, which might draw them out of their spot to double-check, then BOOM! Not to injure them, but toss them around in the shockwave a bit.

Vanger Chevane
17 September 2004, 01:42 PM
This works as well.

Rebels are waiting to assess the damage & success of their raid...Suddenly a door opens & down the hall can be seen some poor Imp who is gingerly carrying this thing out of the facility at arm's length.

Rebels sight in on the Desginated Victim at extreme ranges, bout to blast him preventing sucessfull removal of the bomb and >BOOM<

:P

RemyLeBeau
20 September 2004, 09:04 AM
Another question for you-

I am a player in a short mission, and my character, (Thatcher) is a Tech Specialist.
He's kind of the engineer of the group, mechanic, etc. Anyway, our GM is extremely anti-mechanics, if that's the best word for it. Maybe I can explain with this...

GM: Your ship is hit by a massive ion cannon blast and falls toward the giant shield projector. The ship crashes on the surface of it and skids to a halt.

Me: Sensors... are there any airlocks nearby?

GM: There's one about a klick away.

(Two players go by suit to knock, 'can we come in?' you know.)

Radio: We're getting no respose whatsoever from the doors.

Me: Okay, we'll have to cut our way in. Any cheesewires?

GM: You take all three, and manage to make a two-foot hole. The armor goes down for another twenty feet.

Me: All right. Systems check, what parts of the ship are functional?

GM: Guidance and compuers are out, but engines and power are intact, as well as life support and radio.

Me: Okay. I grab my tools and disengage an engine from the rear of the ship.

Radio: What's that for?

Me: I'm gonna use scrap to anchor it the the generator, then try a low-level burn to melt my way in.

GM: Whoa, whoa. you can't do that.

Me: Why not? I have enough scrap to anchor it just fine.

GM: Okay, Craft check DC 35. (Or something just as impossible)

Me: WHAT?!?!? 8o

GM: Hey, engines are very delicate.

(BTW, I successfully got this roll. Go figure.)

Me: okay, 37. I weld it successfully to the ship. Now i'll hook it to the ship's power core and try a thruster burn.

GM: No no no no NO! Ahh, fine. The engine melts a foot of metal, then breaks free and flies off into space.

Me: What?!?!? I just got the check!!! :raised:

GM: No, you needed to check for Computer Use DC 35 in order to burn...

Me: Rrrgh.....

See? how do I deal with this guy? :mad:

He's done this for about the whole mission;
it was obvious we weren't supposed to get in there,
but he'll tack a DC 35 to anything i do,
INCLUDING welding a bayonet to my quarterstaff!

(he says its a stupid idea, buy a spear. would you rather
hit a guy with a stick, or slice a guy with a bayonet??? Jeez!)

wolverine
20 September 2004, 10:54 AM
The things i would do are..

1) Check with the other players, and see if they feel the GM is being a butthead.

2) if so, have them with you when you confront him, to ask why he is being that way. If not, get with him after game, and find out if he was only doing that cause he could not come up with anything on the fly (eg he didn't expect your group to try to get in the area).

3) If his answer to #2 was he was that way for the above reason, give him another chance. Every gm makes bad decisions sometimes. If he answers with something like "I can't stand super techs..." etc, then get with the other players to see if they will join in with you when you leave the group.

JediJester
20 September 2004, 12:50 PM
I think I would term him "mechanically challenged". It sounds kind of like he doesn't like people doing "weird" things (weird being anything that he wouldn't normally think of). I'm guessing this because of having you fail what you were trying to do and THEN telling you that you needed to make a certain roll.

I'd say talk to him. If you can't come to a compromise with him or if he doesn't have some very good reason, then walk.

Vanger Chevane
20 September 2004, 01:30 PM
I, being a long-time GM & "Old Guard" player, would also remind him that railroading players into doing just what you want is bad GMing & kills the adventure, no matter how spectacular the Script is.

I usually only plan up to the second or third Hard Turn as the group is bound to take one of them. :D

JediJester
22 September 2004, 09:09 AM
I usually only plan up to the second or third Hard Turn as the group is bound to take one of them.
I'm soooo envious of you :P. My players always choose the course of action that no one would ever try doing. I gave up on having anything more planned than possible people and maps for encounters.

wolverine
22 September 2004, 10:42 AM
Just thought of another situation, so rather than making a new thread, i thought i would add it in here.

It is D6 specific though..

Players are chasing, say a bounty hunter, who has captured one of their members. They get into space, and are slowly catching up. He then goes into an asteroid field. A little later, the players are within shooting distance, but are not hitting, so he decides to head towards one of the larger asteroids to try to get them off his tail.
AT this time, the players ship is 4 rounds away from the asteroid, and they are going flat out (so is the bounty hunter). Their first 2 rounds worth of piloting rolls are less than the target number, but not by much (say 3-4 each time), while the third roll is a complete BOMB OUT (eg all 1's on the dice).
They are IMO too close (especially at the speed they were going) to realistically avoid crashing into the asteroid....

So what would you allow them to do, to try and save their butts???

JediJester
22 September 2004, 01:05 PM
I've run into similar situations and ruled the the first fails checks were them bouncing off smaller asteroids in their path. When they botched the last roll, I ruled that they had impacted the huge asteroid in such a way that they mauled their ship up big-time, but still had time to save their bacon (they were venting air and had lost manuevering and propulsion). But then I hate killing of good characters.

Dr_Worm
22 September 2004, 02:21 PM
I would give them oppertunities to save their lives (emphhasizing that the use of a FP might be nessisary), but they would surely be screwed. The BH would get away, and the best outcome they can hope for is a crash landing, injuries, and a dead ship (with life support).

wolverine
16 October 2004, 02:18 PM
I love these things!!!

Time for another one.

Party is huddled together (3 meters circle), for what ever reason. Thermal detonator goes off in the middle, putting 3 into incap, 2 to mortally wounded, and 2 dead (out of a 7 man team). The only person in the building up and active, IS the bad guy who set off the TD..
How can any of them survive?

Jericho_Narcas
16 October 2004, 04:40 PM
Unless the bad guy leaves them for dead, I don't think any of the survivors are going to make it. Even if he does, the two mortally wounded guys are probably history -- they'll likely bleed to death before any of the incapacitated characters can wake up and tend to them.

JediJester
16 October 2004, 04:57 PM
In those instances, I do the typical "bad guy" manuever and walk away without ever checking to make sure that the "good guys" are really dead. As long as no body moves, the bad guy won't kill them. Of course, if there's some other reason the characters couldn't remain there playing dead until the few that can wake up, then there's not much you can do. Scene plays out kinda like this:
You're lying there, the world barely discernable through the fog in your mind. The sensation of pins and needles fills what you hope is your limbs. You are vaguely aware of a presense moving somewhere above you and then it's gone. After an indeterminite amount of time, the fog lifts and feeling returns to your limbs. You sit up and look around at what is left of your party.

IzVenjari
17 October 2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by JediJester
You're lying there, the world barely discernable through the fog in your mind. The sensation of pins and needles fills what you hope is your limbs. You are vaguely aware of a presense moving somewhere above you and then it's gone. After an indeterminite amount of time, the fog lifts and feeling returns to your limbs. You sit up and look around at what is left of your party.

Oohhh! I like! I like! {clapping wildly}

Yeah - let the bad guy wander off, immensely pleased with himself.

Then paint revenge as the picture for the surviving chars - as soon as they get out of intensive care. :D

wolverine
18 October 2004, 03:36 AM
Add in my like of that passage, Jedi Jester.

Let me now throw in a twist...
This guy likes to collect a token from each of his kills (like one of their ears, Kind of Universal soldierish). Since he would think he killed them, he would (IMO) head over to collect his prize. But would he not notice the 3 unconsious ones were not dead, and therefore finish off the job?

Kelcheck
18 October 2004, 04:37 AM
Hmm this could be a very fun one to play with.

1. Have him collect the prize from the characters. go to the most contious character and place a grenade next to him and walk away. Now the character does not have the strength the throw it away, but maybe force him to roll over on it. Or the genade is set for an instant detonation after the spoon is released. Plop it in a Mortally wounded hand, and let it go off, killing the group as he walks away. There are several variations you can do with ths. Depending on the players and their characters. One that I like to do, it have the Bad guy carry a blaster with one shot left in the pack. Go to the most awake character, Place the gun in his hand, and hold a fast flash or regualr med pack in his hand, then tell him that you will save him, and all the others, if the character shoots one of the other characters in the head. This is fun to mess with the players this way. or have the blaster be empty all together, and the bad Guy is just toying with him.

2. is there a reason to capture the group? If so, here they are on a silver plater. Even if there isn't, maybe have them wake up in a hospital, informed that they were just dropped off, Or they wake in a holdign cell, their wounds bound. They escape and go on, but in both senarios, the group has been implanted with either trackers, explosives, or other devices that they are unaware of. Could be fun the next time they face the bad guy, and heads start exploding.

3. remove all the groups gear, and hand cuff each of the injured players to a dead or mortally wounded character. then leave them. They will be forced to crawl out of there with no tools or gear, forced to drag the body of one of their team mates with them. This can be very damaging psychologically to the characters. might develop a phobia of bodies or hand cuffs as a result. could be fun. I'll think of more after the munchkin goes to school.

Random Axe
18 October 2004, 06:46 AM
I would allow two assumptions to be made: first that "Incapacitated" does not always necessarily mean "Unconscious". Which means that for either (or both) Incapacitated PCs, you might allow to move minimally or perform other actions (as long as these actions don't require the rolling of any skill dice) through a fog of burning pain, and at the cost of a drastic permanent disabling or disfiguring injury later on. Then you can let those two surviving characters decide what they might want to do next.

Secondly, you might rule that the bad guy is unable to approach the blast area due to the debris and wreckage, or residual fires or radiation danger, preventing his access to the characters. Besides, what is he, NUTS, to expect any remains of any vicitims after setting of a thermonuclear blast right beside them??? I say the bad guy would give up on the idea of collecting his token(s) and just go off happy, confident in a job well done.

Together these assumptions might allow the two lesser-injured PCs to survive (barely).

wolverine
18 October 2004, 11:17 AM
Ohh, Kel. That third answer was awesome... Just my kind of evil!

What i am trying to do here, is come up with some possible outcomes for a game i have in the works (currently being edited, so the above situation has not yet happened, but it could).
He is somewhat deranged, and is considered very dangerous. As of the mission, he has killed several dozen high-ranking Imperials, and 9 high-ranking rebels as well as a number of civilians (in the 30's). His psych profile shows him to be highly sadistic, with sociopathic tendencies. Basically if he does not cut loose on someone every now and then, he goes balistic. He regards those he encounters based on the following...

Take ALL their ground combat skills and average them out.
If the character say has 8D+, he is considered to be a threat and is taken out how ever possible.
6d-8d, is considered a worthy challenge and is stalked, played with then killed (unless they get away). Those 5d or less overall in combat stats, are considered unworthy, and usually get left to fall to his traps. Those at 4D or less are considered inept, and usualy get neutralized in combat as quick and efficient as possible. Like with a bola stun greanade (basically a bola with 3 stun grenades for the weighted ends), or by getting magna caster bolts put through their feet/knees to staple them to something.

THe PC's are on a mission to take this guy out, so they are technically hunting him, therefore in his mind, they all are threats. BUT it is wrote in there that if any are leaving combat (the place where they find him) and/or have shown lack of desire to fight (like toss their weapons away, so they can drag bodies out...) he will usually just appear long enough for them to notice him, as he snears in their direction, then fades back into the shadows... He does collect some trophies (from those who are threats or worthy). Others are beneath him...

Kelcheck
18 October 2004, 11:31 AM
Usually Incompacitated characters are knocked out for 10D rounds, However I have allowed characters a stamina roll to resist this, but at a cost. Even if they are still awake and functioning, they are limited to 1 action a round, -4D to all skill rolls, and always come last in Inititive for the 10D rounds, after which they are -4D to all rolls until healed to wounded twice.

I think there is a good opertunity for the Gm to play with the PCs and introduce some interesting role playing. Perhaps he takes his trophey anyway, from the living victim, fully expecting him to die of his wounds. That might be fun. The character can barely move, as he hears the hum of a vibro blade, which is soon drowned out by the screams of one of his companions. Next it is his turn as the blade cuts through his flesh, and he is left for dead.

(Kelcheck side story)
A couple years ago the group was captured by the servant of a dark force user. sitting at a conferance table, the servant told the group that he was going to decide whether to kill them all or not, He produced an Imperial coin
"ok heads you live and go free, we will fight again some other day, tails... I space you all"
(the guy was evil, and playful, not all there if you know what I mean) Anyway in mid toss a Trianii (sp) Character (cat like race) leaps at the servant in a moment of desperation. The servant easily ignights his lightsaber and chops off the characters hand (er paw?) The character reels back in pain, as the Paw and coin land on the table.
"oh heads" he says to the Trianii "Looks like it's you lucky day" Then proceeds to pick up the coin and the paw and leave.

The next couple Times the group encountered the Servant, they noticed that he was wearing a Trianii Paw on a chain around his neck. This out raged the characters, especially when he would pet it and call it his "lucky Trianii Paw"


This sort of thing could happen here, the characters could be tauted in later encounters by this guy celebrating his trophies infront of them

Kelcheck
18 October 2004, 11:43 AM
Branding

I just had a cool Idea, Have the guy Brand the forheads of those that he defeates but doesn't kill. Use a small laser cutter to burn the flesh away and engrave his mark on the skull of his victim. There for, short of cosmetic reconstructive surgery (not readily available to rebels) the Mark is permanent. Thes might be a fun reminder every time they look in the mirror

wolverine
18 October 2004, 12:23 PM
Hmm, some interesting ideas there Kel.... I am starting to like your evil mind....

Kelcheck
18 October 2004, 02:34 PM
I am glad to be a perverse help. I'm sure that your players will like it even more;) :D hehehe I'm really likeing this thread, I might start posting some of the seneirios from my game

(god i can't spell today)

IzVenjari
18 October 2004, 05:44 PM
Kelcheck you are probably the most evil GM i have ever encountered. 8o

Heheh! In regards to your earlier suggestion about taking their gear and handcuffing them together here is a side story from a campaign i played in :

On kashysk our merc group got captured by another merc group. They took all our gear, stripped us naked, cuffed us all together in a line and then dropped us off on the forest floor. Somehow we all managed to survive - well, all the PC's anyway, by beating off monsters with sticks and rocks. We got real beat up tho, and we were angry as hell - in fact we almost put everything else on hold to get our revenge. :)

Kelcheck
18 October 2004, 09:48 PM
Thank you, thank you

Couple from my Game Vault.

Scenario k1:
A Charater is attempting to engage a suspected pirate ship, very likely connected to assassins responsable for the murder of a Senator. The pirate ship jumps out of Hyperspace and retreives the suspected murders, then sets a course for the local Hyper becon. On the way the pirate ship has several opertunities to fire on the Jedi Character, or on a nearby dissabled patrol ship. The Suspected Pirate ship only fires its guns to intercept an incomming torpedo fired by the Jedi Character. Then as the ship is about to escape, the Jedi fires a pair of photon torpedoes, (with out attempting to scan, or communicate with the suspected pirate ship) Hitting and destroying the ship, along with the 80+ crew aboard... How would you rule?


Scenario K2:
A jedi character is walking down the road, when he sees a young woman running towards him with 5 men running behind her, she runs past the Jedi without incedent, but when the men start to run past the jedi, who has moved to block thier way, one of the men attempts to shove the Jedi out of the way and to the side while yelling at the Jedi to get out of his way. The Jedi silently responds by parrying the shove, and attacking the Man with a critical Martial arts strike, without declaring stun damage, or determining what was going on. The Jedi's no stun strike does 15 points of damage over the man's STR check--- Putting him in the high Mortally wounded catagory. Now after scaring off the other men, the Jedi does check the Man to find that he is emenintly dieing (infact that round he was dead) and does a transfer force on him, barly reviving him, then reports the incodent to the athorities, as the man had fallen and hit his head.
2 Questions... 1 does the Jedi deserve the force point back for saving the man that he put in mortal jepardy, and whom he cause some hard head truama and damage in this Scenario, and
2 if the man had died, would the jedi deserve a dark side point, or at least in this case, does the jedi deserve a warning??? your thoughts?


Scenario k3:
A Jedi character is being ambushed in the streets, by unknown persons wearing street clothes firing from the roof tops. During the ambush, the jedi notices 2 speeder bikes about 3 blocks away raceing towards the area of the ambush, the drivers are also wearing street clothes and helmets. The jedi Uses Telekinesis to shove one of the bikes going 100 MPH into the other causing both to explode, killing both drivers.


Scenario k4:
During the same ambush as the scenario 3, the jedi's team comes under heavy fire from a speeder car armed with an f-web. The jedi's first action is to TK the speeder, and it's 4 person crew, into the opposite building, exploding the car, the crew, and the front half of the building. Was this action neccisary or extreme? And what about when you combine it with scenario 3?

Just some starters to gt us going

wolverine
19 October 2004, 03:27 AM
OK. My rulings for you Kel..

K1) Escaping pirate ship... He gets a DSP! No warning No nada. He willingly fired on a ship he knew nothing about other than suspicion, when from all available evicence (the ship only fired to destroy a proton torp), it was NOT engaging in combat.

K2) Hurt guy. First off, did the Jedi know what the guys were chasing the woman for? From your report, not. For all he knew, they could have been after her for robbing them. Now he failed to order them to halt, or to give them a chance (and i don't consider just stepping in their path a warning). So No he does not get the FP back, as it was spent clearing up the mess he made. As to whether he gets a warning.. oh hell yea!!!

K3 and K4). When taken together, imo while they are excessive, they are still IMO in self defense. I would warn them, and maybe even have the police force them into paying compensation for causing that damage.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Situation 1: Party on a ship, 2 crew in the turrets, 1 in engineering, 1 polot, 1 co-pilot. THe last guy, mans the nav comp/sensor station. THey are in hot pursuit of a fleeing priate ship who has taken a informant prisoner. The player on the nav/comp says he is programming the sensors to link to the nav comp, so when they detect the enemies ship going into hyperspace, it will start to project a course. Then he emphatically states, the moment the Nav comp bleeps, indicating it has a course, he will pull the lever. I asked him 4 times to make exatly sure he was doing that, WITHOUT ANY CHECKS on the course. Dude spends a FP, and rolls his 6d (3d normally) in astrogation, getting all 1's. What would you say happens.


Oh they make the jump to hyperspace alright. Than a massive amount of console explotions rocks the ship. Sparks, smoke and small fires as the ship makes an ackward jump into hyperpspace. When they finally drop out of hyperspace they are limited in speed, firepower and life support. They must land and will need 72 hours worth of repairs. There is a planet nearby...and this would be where I would have a short side adventure. Something out of Pitch Black or Aliens.


Originally posted by wolverine
Situation 2:
1 jedi get's caught in the blast of a gloop grenade. His friend tries to run by, so he does not get shot, screws up and falls hands first into the gloop. Jedi caught, says he will move his hand to his lightsaber and activate it so he can cut himself out. I explain he is stuck, like a web spell in AD&D, and so cannot reach the saber. He says to sith with it, activates TK to turn it on.. For note it is in a under armpit hidden sling/pouch pointed UP!!!
THe other guy, spends a FP to double his strength from 2d+2 to 5d+1 (rounding from 4d+4), and gets all 1's on his attempt to break free form the glue.........../

Jeid must make a DF of 20 to remove the lightsabre from its holster. Than a DF of 10 to activate it. Now a DF of 25 to accurately cut them from the goop. The other character that missed the strength check now must do it again.

I never punish characters for bad rolls, only bad decisions.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by darkvet
I would like some other people's input on my descisions.
Thanx
Darkvet

Sad to say but you are already dealing with a whiny baby. Probably not really a role player but a roll player.

Nothing should be given. It should be earned. Risk vs. Reward.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Lord-Grunt
What would you guys do?

I would have let him try it. He jumps into a Imperial controlled space. Goes through the usually "Halt starship! You are in Imperial controlled space. Powerdown your ship and prepare to be boarded. Refusal will lead to your immediate destruction!"

The Empire boards him, he gives the info and the Empire believing he knows more abducts him for interrogation.

Hand the player a new character sheet and say tough luck but there is a reason WHY there is a rebellion against a tyrranical governement, since they tortured him to death trying to gleam every last bit of knowledge from him and Tremayne is quite efficient at making pain last right up until death.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Resurecting this one, with another humdinger of a situation..

Party consists of, say 7 players, none are jedi, and 3 are Reb spec force operatives. On one of their missions, 4 of them get captured. The other 3 managed to flee back to reb base, and once done with the de-briefing, are denied a chance of making a rescue attempt.
How do you handle the other player's objections (the ones wishing to make the rescue attempt) and what do you do about those in jail....

The rescuers would have to come up with a good plan to get there hands on a ship. A great plan to rescue the others. If they can pull it off the Rebellion would be upset but Leia would make a cameo and exonerate them for their bravery and steadfast in the face of danger and for rescuing friends. They would get medals and the ship they took would be "leased" to them for specific rebel missions. A whole new campaign would be created with the players being the first team to explore new worlds and make new contacts.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
I love these things!!!!!!!!!!!

Just got done checking, and i have not posted this before...

OK another strange situation for y'all.

Players (6 in all) are attempting to infiltrate an imperial outpost (200 or so imperials which they HAVE BEEN advised of) and not only plant bombs to disable/destroy the 6 AT-ST walkers, but the communications dish. They trigger the alarm, but through what ever mess up's do not get out, before a good portion of the base is mobilised against them. The Base commander is under strict orders from the sector Moff, AND the Sector General/Admiral that any rebels are to be eliminated from the picture with extreme prejudice.

They have a lot of angry and more than willing to kill, imperials against them. Other than having the base CO completly ignore orders (which would get him and several of his underlings killed by the moff), what way can i have the players survive?

Because of their actions the prison hld cells are opened and a few escape prisoners find the PCs and would agree to helping each other to escape. They know of a way out through the ventialltion ducts. This could be the beginning to a Farscape like campaign.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Thread resurection... Had these happen this year...

Bounty hunter jet packs through smoke into a forest. Crashes, wounds himself (spends 4 cp so as to not be dead!!!!). While on the ground, gets his fuel tank shot by an imp. Next round, he decides to use his jet pack again to fly in an arc back to the bunker, while fuel is leaking down his back..... Would it go off? When??? How much damage would it do????

Jet pack doesn't turn on. Insufficient compression in the fuel line.


Originally posted by wolverine
Team of remels have succeeded in infiltrating base, and are getting ready to set a bag of explosives (25lb of detonite!). Player making the demo roll gets 12 (target number was a 11) for the roll, but also has a 1 on the wild die...... What would you have happen????


Explosion doesn't occur for 2D6 rounds. "Slow Burn".


Originally posted by wolverine
And lastly (happened in a 1 shot game ran by some people using our room, kind of an open game). Ship is in hyperspace when the pc's realise the circuitry to disable the hyperdrive (and therefore bring the ship out of hyperspace) is busted. So one kicks on his lightsaber and hacks at the hyperdrive... What happens????

SPLAT! As the ship decelerates down to zero from hyperspace speeds in just over a second.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by RemyLeBeau
Another question for you-

I am a player in a short mission, and my character, (Thatcher) is a Tech Specialist.
He's kind of the engineer of the group, mechanic, etc. Anyway, our GM is extremely anti-mechanics, if that's the best word for it. Maybe I can explain with this...

GM: Your ship is hit by a massive ion cannon blast and falls toward the giant shield projector. The ship crashes on the surface of it and skids to a halt.

Me: Sensors... are there any airlocks nearby?

GM: There's one about a klick away.

(Two players go by suit to knock, 'can we come in?' you know.)

Radio: We're getting no respose whatsoever from the doors.

Me: Okay, we'll have to cut our way in. Any cheesewires?

GM: You take all three, and manage to make a two-foot hole. The armor goes down for another twenty feet.

Me: All right. Systems check, what parts of the ship are functional?

GM: Guidance and compuers are out, but engines and power are intact, as well as life support and radio.

Me: Okay. I grab my tools and disengage an engine from the rear of the ship.

Radio: What's that for?

Me: I'm gonna use scrap to anchor it the the generator, then try a low-level burn to melt my way in.

GM: Whoa, whoa. you can't do that.

Me: Why not? I have enough scrap to anchor it just fine.

GM: Okay, Craft check DC 35. (Or something just as impossible)

Me: WHAT?!?!? 8o

GM: Hey, engines are very delicate.

(BTW, I successfully got this roll. Go figure.)

Me: okay, 37. I weld it successfully to the ship. Now i'll hook it to the ship's power core and try a thruster burn.

GM: No no no no NO! Ahh, fine. The engine melts a foot of metal, then breaks free and flies off into space.

Me: What?!?!? I just got the check!!! :raised:

GM: No, you needed to check for Computer Use DC 35 in order to burn...

Me: Rrrgh.....

See? how do I deal with this guy? :mad:

He's done this for about the whole mission;
it was obvious we weren't supposed to get in there,
but he'll tack a DC 35 to anything i do,
INCLUDING welding a bayonet to my quarterstaff!

(he says its a stupid idea, buy a spear. would you rather
hit a guy with a stick, or slice a guy with a bayonet??? Jeez!)

You cannot remove an engine from a ship like that. All you can take out is the housing that way. The actual engine is part of the space frame. Even if you could remove the actual engine, a generator wouldn't have the power to get the engine up enough to "melt" through that much armored hull. No dice.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Just thought of another situation, so rather than making a new thread, i thought i would add it in here.

It is D6 specific though..

Players are chasing, say a bounty hunter, who has captured one of their members. They get into space, and are slowly catching up. He then goes into an asteroid field. A little later, the players are within shooting distance, but are not hitting, so he decides to head towards one of the larger asteroids to try to get them off his tail.
AT this time, the players ship is 4 rounds away from the asteroid, and they are going flat out (so is the bounty hunter). Their first 2 rounds worth of piloting rolls are less than the target number, but not by much (say 3-4 each time), while the third roll is a complete BOMB OUT (eg all 1's on the dice).
They are IMO too close (especially at the speed they were going) to realistically avoid crashing into the asteroid....

So what would you allow them to do, to try and save their butts???

Hope they get a good damage resist roll vs. Asteroid damage. :D

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
I love these things!!!

Time for another one.

Party is huddled together (3 meters circle), for what ever reason. Thermal detonator goes off in the middle, putting 3 into incap, 2 to mortally wounded, and 2 dead (out of a 7 man team). The only person in the building up and active, IS the bad guy who set off the TD..
How can any of them survive?

Because the Bad Guy is headed to greener pastures. Any time a TD is used in an encounter the BEG leaves as soon as possible.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Add in my like of that passage, Jedi Jester.

Let me now throw in a twist...
This guy likes to collect a token from each of his kills (like one of their ears, Kind of Universal soldierish). Since he would think he killed them, he would (IMO) head over to collect his prize. But would he not notice the 3 unconsious ones were not dead, and therefore finish off the job?

If the bad guy is ever forced to resort to using a TD he is not going to bother collecting trophies. Either the PCS are a power to be reconned with or the bad guy believes 100% that the TD is going to "waste" his usual trophies anyway. No point hanging around especially after using a TD.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
Thank you, thank you

Couple from my Game Vault.

Scenario k1:
A Charater is attempting to engage a suspected pirate ship, very likely connected to assassins responsable for the murder of a Senator. The pirate ship jumps out of Hyperspace and retreives the suspected murders, then sets a course for the local Hyper becon. On the way the pirate ship has several opertunities to fire on the Jedi Character, or on a nearby dissabled patrol ship. The Suspected Pirate ship only fires its guns to intercept an incomming torpedo fired by the Jedi Character. Then as the ship is about to escape, the Jedi fires a pair of photon torpedoes, (with out attempting to scan, or communicate with the suspected pirate ship) Hitting and destroying the ship, along with the 80+ crew aboard... How would you rule?
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Did the Jedi properly identify his or her self to the ship. "To unidentified ship this is Koreth Pace of the Jedi Order. You are engaging in pirate activity! Heave to or I will open fire!" If they did than no DSP here. If they did it JUST to have some combat than 2 DSPs.



Originally posted by Kelcheck
[B]
Scenario K2:
A jedi character is walking down the road, when he sees a young woman running towards him with 5 men running behind her, she runs past the Jedi without incedent, but when the men start to run past the jedi, who has moved to block thier way, one of the men attempts to shove the Jedi out of the way and to the side while yelling at the Jedi to get out of his way. The Jedi silently responds by parrying the shove, and attacking the Man with a critical Martial arts strike, without declaring stun damage, or determining what was going on. The Jedi's no stun strike does 15 points of damage over the man's STR check--- Putting him in the high Mortally wounded catagory. Now after scaring off the other men, the Jedi does check the Man to find that he is emenintly dieing (infact that round he was dead) and does a transfer force on him, barly reviving him, then reports the incodent to the athorities, as the man had fallen and hit his head.
2 Questions... 1 does the Jedi deserve the force point back for saving the man that he put in mortal jepardy, and whom he cause some hard head truama and damage in this Scenario, and
2 if the man had died, would the jedi deserve a dark side point, or at least in this case, does the jedi deserve a warning??? your thoughts?


Jedi gains a DSP and does not gain back the FP. They are also brought up on charges of assault. Interfering with local security for the escape of a known criminal. Attempted man slaughter. The Jedi Order will be sued for failure to police their own in a civil lawsuite. Penalties 4-12 years in prison and a 250,000 credit fine. The Jedi will also be banned from the Jedi Order during the investigation. If found guilty the Jedi would be expelled from the Jedi Order.


Originally posted by Kelcheck

Scenario k3:
A Jedi character is being ambushed in the streets, by unknown persons wearing street clothes firing from the roof tops. During the ambush, the jedi notices 2 speeder bikes about 3 blocks away raceing towards the area of the ambush, the drivers are also wearing street clothes and helmets. The jedi Uses Telekinesis to shove one of the bikes going 100 MPH into the other causing both to explode, killing both drivers.
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1 DSP here.


Originally posted by Kelcheck
[B]
Scenario k4:
During the same ambush as the scenario 3, the jedi's team comes under heavy fire from a speeder car armed with an f-web. The jedi's first action is to TK the speeder, and it's 4 person crew, into the opposite building, exploding the car, the crew, and the front half of the building. Was this action neccisary or extreme? And what about when you combine it with scenario 3?

Just some starters to gt us going

Extreme and worthy of 1 DSP. Also the Jedi Order would once again be under fire from fundementalists who think the Jedi Order is an outdated form of government control and teh recklessness of the members is proof of that fact. The Jedi in question qould be stripped of their rank of Knight and woul dhave to prove they are a Jedi by having a Jedi Master instruct them on elements of the Force and perform the trials for Jedi who have been dishonored. These trials are the hardest and require self sacrifice, determination, self reliance and pure believe in the Force.

wolverine
19 October 2004, 11:46 AM
Because of their actions the prison hld cells are opened and a few escape prisoners find the PCs and would agree to helping each other to escape. They know of a way out through the ventialltion ducts.

Unfortunatly, there is only one 'prisoner' holding cel, and that is for troopers to sleep off any drunkness. That and no ventilation ducts...


SPLAT! As the ship decelerates down to zero from hyperspace speeds in just over a second.

Ohh. Me likes.

Kelcheck
19 October 2004, 12:33 PM
A side note that I should mention On senerio K1, the Jedi's custom fighter was armed with 4 of the most powerful Ion cannons that he could get. He never once tried communications, or even scanned the ship with sensors.

The Jedi witnessed a pair of fighters shoot down a ship that a Senator was aboard, then flee into space, the Jedi gave chase. The Fighters were engaged by a pair of patrol ships, which the fighters disabled but did not destroy. They never fired at the Jedi in his fighter, and made several passes at the dissabled patrol ship without firing either, once they were shut down. A large ship (180 meters) popped out of hyperspace, to which the 2 fighters docked. The large ship then turned to jump back out of the system when the Jedi Fired a single torpedo. The capital ship shot the torpedo down, but did not fire on the Jedi or the crippled police ships as it passed them. The Jedi then fired a pair of torpedoes, and much to my dismay, they failed to shoot either down. Both projectiles hit, and resulted in the craft's destruction, along with the loss of 86 lives. The Jedi never scanned, communicated, or tryed disabling the ship.




Senerio K3. the ambush took place in a city, on city streets. The Jedi noticed 2 speeder bikes 3 blocks away. He never tried to Itentify them or their intentions, is first reaction apone me mentioning them to him was to TK one into the other.


Senerio K4: Again the ambush took place on city streets, in a busy market place, with civilians all around. The Jedi was not alone, but had a team of Spec force special oppertives with him. (sorry I failed to mention that, but I do think I hinted at a team) I was currious about the possible inhabitants that fled into the building duing the attack. the same building that the Jedi partially destroyed by throwing the entire speeder into it. Again that was his first reaction, to throw the entire speeder, not knock the gunner off, or rip the gun off its mounts, or even just shoot the gunner, but threw the entire thing into a possibly occupied building.


I hope this helps. Any other clarifications on the K senerios?

Rogue Janson
19 October 2004, 02:46 PM
All of these are basically excessive use of force and thus Dark Side Point worthy.

K1's straightforward. The Jedi is reckless in not checking the ship, fails to take any measures to avoid violence and uses excessive force. No question on the DSP.

K2 - dark side point and no force point returned. Again, the Jedi has failed to think about the situation - as has been said, it could be police chasing a criminal - and immediately resorted to excessive violence. The healing is just a belated recognition of the mistake.

K3 - same as the first two, but with one exception. If these speeder bikes really are enemies, then the character has acted recklessly but partly correctly. I'd be tempted not to give a DSP. This sounds rather soft, but my reasoning is that if the character thinks he's acted correctly this time, he'll behave that way in the future - and that will get him into trouble.

K4 - in other circumstances I might let this one slide, though it does depend partly on your view of attacking with the Force. Clearly the Jedi's reaction is not ideal, but the character is in a situation seriously threatening the lives of him and his fellows. Other options might not be quick and reliable enough to stop them from being killed. If it were a case of pushing the vehicle into a rock or a cliff wall I'm not sure I'd give a DSP (though it would depend on exactly what the other options and situation were).
However in this case, the Jedi has clearly failed to consider the potential harm caused by an armed speeder crashing into a building in a city. So there's no question it's bad. If, miraculously, no-one was hurt (bar the speeder crew) you could apply the logic from 3 to this, but because of the damage to property I think it's less appropriate.

Kelcheck
19 October 2004, 07:39 PM
Ok I'll wait for a couple more responces, then I'll fill you in on my solutions, and the behind the scenes info. HEHEHE

Yes it was evil, and Yes I did screw them over as a result of their own actions

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by wolverine


Unfortunatly, there is only one 'prisoner' holding cel, and that is for troopers to sleep off any drunkness. That and no ventilation ducts...


Didn't read that in original post so I would spin doctor the ship. Players find stowaways. Either way I would introduce some NPC help, one way or another.

Sorry Wolvy, but once my GM brain thinks up a solution to help the PCs I never give it up.

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
The Jedi witnessed a pair of fighters shoot down a ship that a Senator was aboard, then flee into space...

This changes everything now. The Jedi would not gain a DSP for destroying the ship. The pirates destroyed a ship with a senator onboard first. The Jedi was in his or her right to try and stop the ship at all costs if possible. Destroying it as a last resort. Since it always comes down to the damage rolls anything can happen.

If the Jedi never ever tried to communicate to the ship to stop I would rule it a transgression but not a full DSP since the "pirates" killed a senator in full witness of a Jedi.

The Council would rebuke the Jedi for not first trying to communicate to the ship, but beyond that it was an unavoidable occurence.

Kelcheck
19 October 2004, 08:18 PM
Hmm interesting point of view. I don't know if I would rule the same. The Jedi never attempted communications with the carrier, or gave them a chance to give up. Nor did he attempt to disable them with his ion cannons. His only action was to fire the heaviest and most destructive weapon at the ship that had picked up the fighters that attacked the senatorial shuttle. the Pirate ship did not attack nor do anything to engage the Jedi or the Patrol craft. The Jedi was the aggressor in this conflict. The Jedi's actions led to the deaths of 86+ personel without moral regard to the possible innocent beings on the ship. Instead of disabling the ship, he used his most destructive weapons on the ship. The Jedi acted as judge and juror. The Jedi should at least have tried to communicate with the starship to learn their intentions.

86 people died in the Jedi's attack, the Jedi doesn't know to what extent they were aware of the 2 fighter's actions. I disagree about the 86 crew members aboard the ship that picked up the assassins deserving death for that actions of 2 crew members. I would say base the amount of DS points towards the malice and intent. Here this Jedi has some of the most powerful weapons and would rather use them when they themselves have not been attacked. The Jedi has other options open but ignores them.

JediJester
19 October 2004, 09:53 PM
Scenario k1:
Hmmm... this one would at least get a very stern warning if not a DSP. There is a lot of stuff in this situation that might push my decision one way or another. I'd definitely lean towards a DSP though since he didn't confirm his suspicions and didn't try to communicate to give them a chance to surrender.

Scenario K2:
No DSP for the scenario as described, but I'd give the player a warning. He definitely wouldn't get his FP back and if the man had died, he would have incurred a DSP.

Scenario k3:
I'd lean more towards a warning in this one, especially if there were a lot of explosions and obvious signs of fighting going on. With obvious fighting going on, civilians would probably try to keep out of the way so the Jedi's suspicions of them being "bad" would have more weight. If the fighting wasn't so obvious, then I might consider a DSP. A lot of it depends on how justified I feel the Jedi is to suspect fowl play.

Scenario k4:
I'd go with a warning again. He is dealing with a confirmed opponent here, but he is also endangering innocents. The reason for taking out the vehicle is clear, but the method does seem a bit excessive unless the Jedi knew that the building would be empty. Making the car crash doesn't necessarily mean the death of the crew, so I wouldn't immediately count a DSP for this as long as the player didn't state, "I'm going to crash the car so the crew dies."

Fred Getce
19 October 2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
Hmm interesting point of view. I don't know if I would rule the same. The Jedi never attempted communications with the carrier, or gave them a chance to give up. Nor did he attempt to disable them with his ion cannons. His only action was to fire the heaviest and most destructive weapon at the ship that had picked up the fighters that attacked the senatorial shuttle. the Pirate ship did not attack nor do anything to engage the Jedi or the Patrol craft. The Jedi was the aggressor in this conflict. The Jedi's actions led to the deaths of 86+ personel without moral regard to the possible innocent beings on the ship. Instead of disabling the ship, he used his most destructive weapons on the ship. The Jedi acted as judge and juror. The Jedi should at least have tried to communicate with the starship to learn their intentions.

86 people died in the Jedi's attack, the Jedi doesn't know to what extent they were aware of the 2 fighter's actions. I disagree about the 86 crew members aboard the ship that picked up the assassins deserving death for that actions of 2 crew members. I would say base the amount of DS points towards the malice and intent. Here this Jedi has some of the most powerful weapons and would rather use them when they themselves have not been attacked. The Jedi has other options open but ignores them.

I didn't see Luke wincing when he blew up the death star and it was filled with 1000s of technicians and custodians who were not military men. What about them? How many DSPs should Luke havegotten?

These pirates fired on a senators ship. They could be just as easily classified as assassins and Jedi do not tolerate assassins nor the people who harbor them. They do not try to kill just for the sake of killing, but they also will not allow such a thing to happen without trying to apprehend the killers and if in the attempt they are killed, well...

The fact that the other ship picked them up can be inferred that they were in on it and was the "get away" ship, which means they could all be in on it. It would have been better for the Jedi to try and capture the ship but it was unlikely this would happen. Star fighter ion cannons usually don't have the fire power to disable a capital ship (unless it is a GMs generous gift). Even if it did the assassins would more than likely destroy themselves instead of being captured or they would just evacuate in smaller craft meaning a good number of them would get away. Firing on the ship and hoping to cause enough damage to stop it in its tracks was the best course of action, the fact the damage roll was so good is the spoils of war. If the Jedi used a force point however than yes a DSP

Kelcheck
19 October 2004, 11:00 PM
OK, glad to get some views, and some different ones at that.

Here is the behind the scenes stuff the players didn't know, and my calls.

K1. The 2 fighters were sent in to harrass and scare the senator, but the rolls did not go their way, they ended up killing him and the ship. The senator was using his office and power to participate in slave trade. The raiders were from one of the worlds harvested by the slavers supported by the senator. Becuase the Jedi Did not communicate, or attemp alternative methods to disable the 180 meter craft, and the players general attitude at the time, in addition to the jedi character already having a DSP, I granted one DSP

The player in question gave me this awnser to this post
Dark Side Point...maybe even 2 if a GM can give that many.


k2. He does not deserve a FP because he didn't use it heroically and with sacrifice to himself. He already defended himself and decided to use lethal force to get a point across that a simple MA parry already done. If he died then he should get a DSP because it was his stupid decisions that killed him. the situation is as it appears, the men chasing the woman were going to attack her. my only problems were this. One the Jedi's reaction was to strike. Actions by the Jedi were rash and invasive. Had the man died definately a darkside point, as it is a darkside warning should be given. First do no harm.
Their are a million ways that the Jedi could of found out what was really going on with out interferring. He could of use receptive on one of the men, and if he had murderous or evil thoughs then the Jedi should follow. He chose to take the "Look everyone Im a hero!!" route and do it the flashy way. Lots of innocents die when jedi do things that way.

I believe the Jedi deserves a DSP. He stepped into a situation that he knew nothing about, fine.. he hurt someone and then revived him, again fine. Now this is the important part..

then reports it as the man had fallen and hit his head
He lied about what happened.. The Jedi told the authorities that he had fallen, not that he had struck the person. He intentionally tried to cover up something that he did. This is fear. Fear of being caught.

If this had been left out of the story I would have agreed with everyone, but I feel this is something that changes from accident to purpose.


K3. The 2 bikers were a couple of teen agers out joy ridding. They were 3 blocks away (about 300 meters) and the Jedi's first reaction was to kill them with the Force, not check first. The ambush had just started, and people out racing about don't normally pay attention to everything going on, they are 2 busy racing. I've seen people ignore police and ambulances that are less than 20-30 meters away. He would get a DSP. He did not get a ID of the bikers. Bad guys usually shoot first, thats why they are bad guys. These bikers didn't show any agression, so the Jedi did not have much to go off of. I don't think riding fast, and heading towards a popular market area is auto matic assumtion of guilt and worthy of death. As far as the street clothes argument is concerned....Well, the merchants and bystandars were all wearing street clothes, should the jedi have assumed them hostile as well? what about his own spec force team? they were in street clothes....
I think my argument is, a character, especially a Jedi, should make sure they know who they are killing and why they are commiting the most violent violation of the life that they have taken an oath to protect.
In this example the jedi did not know the who, what or why, and he had time to find out, they were a couple blocks away. A simple combat sence or other power could ell the jedi most of what he wanted to know....
Also intention does not mean action, if a character intends to attack a character, but never goes through with it, never even attempts it, (for what ever reason) is it still evil. Is thought and intentionalone, without follow through, enough to damb a character, and is it enough to condem them to death?. The speeder bikes were not a clear threat more a target of opportunity for the Jedi.

Besides why was the Jedi concentrating what had yet to prove to be a threat. Idiots on rooftops shooting into crowds, and finding cover really should be what the Jedi was thinking of. taking action with out thinking or knowing all the facts, can be as bad as not taking action at all. according to the discription, there sould have been time to do a receptive telpathy check on one of the riders, as well as defend or seek cover from the shooters on the roof before the riders got there.


K4: His methods are extreme because he does not mind using 2 to 5 ton steel objects moving at high speed as high speed metal chariots of flaming doom. Civilians also have the potential to get hurt as well. The ambush took place in a populated market area, with store fronts on both sides of the street and apartments on top of those. The Jedi was armed, and had 2 Spec force Snipers with him, was throwing the speeder and it's crew into a nearby store/ building whos habitation was unknown, really the best action to make. Sure there is fog of war, but Jedi are supposed to be above that. Perhaps a different strategy could have been employed by the Jedi?

Using TK to knock a guy off the speader, or using TK to pull the gun out of the attacker's hands? Maybe ordering the NR sniper to take out the attackers? Then helping the rest of the team get out of the way? Something that the Jedi forgot in that situation that got people killed: He was not the only one there, and he did not have to do everything himself. There were well armed and trained men in the team that could have taken out a few of the bad guys. This Jedi is a show off. He would rather show off his abilities and throw the speeder into a possibly occupied building. This Jedi is prime DS material. As for the scenerio the Jedi is a show off or at least not very creative.

TK could have been used to render the F-Web useful only for firing into his own vehicle, or to remove the shooter.

Affect mind is also useful but the difficulties on it might make it impractical.

As for the fog of war thing. Death is supposed to be the last resort, and only for those whose aggression cannot be curbed any other way. There is no such thing as colateral damage to a Jedi. Any innocent lives lost due to a Jedi's actions are a failure on the Jedi's part.

And finally, if this particular Jedi could use a blaster pistol well why resort to force powers when shooting back would be more efficient? Use the skills you have the best chance of succeeding with. a jedi does not have to always use the mos extreme of their powers. simply ripping the gun away, or even easier push the gunner off the platform, or push the barrel down into the speeder, solving the whole problem. Or capping the gunner or pilot. the alternatives are endless. this jedi used the most extreme (and in game terms highest difficulty) action possible for him

wolverine
20 October 2004, 03:32 AM
Yup. DSPs in 2 of the 4, with stern warnings for the other 2.

And to fred...


Didn't read that in original post so I would spin doctor the ship. Players find stowaways. Either way I would introduce some NPC help, one way or another.

What makes you think it is on a ship? I said, they are infiltrating an imperial base. That commonly refers to a planetside installation..
And how 'spin doctor'? Would that not be the same as playing the NPCs stupid as he**, so your PC's dont get whakked??!

Rogue Janson
20 October 2004, 03:35 AM
originally posted by Fred Getche
These pirates fired on a senators ship. They could be just as easily classified as assassins and Jedi do not tolerate assassins nor the people who harbor them. They do not try to kill just for the sake of killing, but they also will not allow such a thing to happen without trying to apprehend the killers and if in the attempt they are killed, well...
I don't agree with this. These people have done one evil act - killed a senator, which they didn't even mean to do - and the Jedi's immediate response is to kill them all in response. He has no idea if they have any cause, if they intend to do anything similar in the future, or anything else. It's not as if he''s made an attempt to apprehend them and failed, he's immediately resorted to the most extreme measure available.

Imagine him going back to report to the Jedi council.
:yoda: "this assassination, very grave it is. If assassination it was - more here than we see I sense there is. Jedi X, there were you. What did you discover about these assassins?"
:kenobi: "did you manage to track them back to their base and find out whether they have any allies? Did you manage to get an ID on their ship"
:yoda: "Justice these people must face. Tasked the Jedi to find and bring to trial the assassins, the senate has. Help with the investigation your information can, mmm?"

"There's no need to worry about that, Master Yoda. I've already killed them all."

Fred Getce
20 October 2004, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson

I don't agree with this. These people have done one evil act - killed a senator, which they didn't even mean to do - and the Jedi's immediate response is to kill them all in response. He has no idea if they have any cause, if they intend to do anything similar in the future, or anything else.

That is the problem here. As the GM you know exactly why NPCs do the things they do. Players do not. You have to assess the situation from the players point of view as well as a general view when it comes to awarding DSPs in games. One of the reasons why the rules in the RPGs tend to be fairly blatant in their interpretations of when to award a DSP.

Look at the facts from the players point of view:

Player Jedi sees two ships fire on senators ship. Senators ship is destroyed. Jedi pursues killers. They dock with a larger ship and the Jedi fires on the larger ship. Larger ship is destroyed. There is nothing in that to warrant a DSP. A senator was killed. The killers joined with their mother ship. Jedi did his duty and attacked a known menace. The fact that there was a unknown conspiracy shouldn't be an issue in determining whether to hand out a DSP since the player had no way of knowing the illicit activities of the Senator or that the "killers" were only trying to scare the senator. Of course if they were trying to scare the senator wouldn't it have been better for them to miss instead of risk killing the senator with a lucky shot? I would rule this a GM Fo-Pa (sp) myself.

I would also like to point out, Player Jedi can never win if the GM uses his or her knowledge on whether the player gets a DSP on a questionable action, because players won't know what the background info is. I amguilty of this in games same as everyone else. I believe that to be a good GM one must be completely biased on player actions. If they go for teh gun so to speak to save a life and find out they actually assissted a criminal get away they should not be punished because they did not know, especially in a split second decision situation.

Kind of like the doctor who makes a split second decision to safe a patients life and the procedure to safe the life is not good enough, or it causes a complication that loses the patients life. Should the doctor be punished for doing his duty because he did not have all the facts on hand to make a well judged decision, cause he had 2 seconds to make a decision, not 2 days.

Random Axe
20 October 2004, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck

because it was his stupid decisions that killed him.
It is because of THIS very fact that the Jedi would not deserve a DSP, IMO. Stupidity is not intent. Bad choices born of ignorance is not a reflection of the Dark Side. I don't think I would award the Darkside Point. However, I would let him know he doesn't receive his spent force point back for transferring force.

In situations K3 and K4, I think the actions are warranted in the situation being under fire and under attack, I would not award DSP's.

Rogue Janson
20 October 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Fred Getce
That is the problem here. As the GM you know exactly why NPCs do the things they do. Players do not. You have to assess the situation from the players point of view as well as a general view when it comes to awarding DSPs in games. One of the reasons why the rules in the RPGs tend to be fairly blatant in their interpretations of when to award a DSP.
My point is not that the character should know what's going on but that he has made no attempt to find out. Even if they were cold-hearted killers, which the evidence available to the player suggests they're not, is it right to immediately destroy them? At the very least it's not very Jedi - the Jedi is not eliminating a threat. The threat was to the senator, and it has passed. Though it is not implausible to suspect the assassins may pose a further threat in the future, it's not a certain conclusion. The Jedi never challenges the 'assassins', never asks them to stop, fires warning shots, attempts to use his ion cannons, use his torps specifically to try and disable the ship or even scan it to ID it.

He's also damaged the prospects of discovering anything about what's actually going on, and bringing the people responsible to justice - unless you consider the killing of everyone on board the 'assassin's' ship a just response to the loss of life on the senator's.

This case is also, unlike the others, not a split second decision. The character has had time to see what's going on and decide on an appropriate response.

Kelcheck
20 October 2004, 09:13 AM
You have to assess the situation from the players point of view as well as a general view when it comes to awarding DSPs in games

That is why the original post was writen the way it was, from the player's point of view. I added the truth in afterwords for your benifit. The player never learned about the greater slave trading that was going on, and never went to stop it. Even the player that did these actions thinks that he deserves 1-2 DSPs for what he did. He said he wasn't thinking, but a Jedi should do better. Killing 86 people for the actions of 2 (whether involved or not, the actions to kill were only 2) is a bit harsh. Did the captian's wife, and 2 children deserve to die? The Jedi had no idea what was going on, nor ever made and attempt to find out. He reacted by commiting the most violent act against life that he could. and he had time. there was nearly 5 min between the time the senator was shot down, to the time he sentenced 86 people to death. A Jedi must have a serious mind, and must reviere life.
Player Jedi sees two ships fire on senators ship. Senators ship is destroyed. Jedi pursues killers. They dock with a larger ship and the Jedi fires on the larger ship. Larger ship is destroyed so where does that logic stop, if he followed the ship to a base does that base need to be destroyed with out investigation or communication? If that base is in a city, should we attack that city as they are obviously harboring the assassins? If the city is under the protectiong of the planetary government, should we call in the death star? Where does the punishment for 2 pilots end?
I would have perfered that he role play instead of jumping to violence. funny thing is he is my longest time player and he knows that I don't tolerate that kind of hack N slash (his words) in my games, he just wasn't thinking. after the fact he realised that he had many more options left open to him, he feels that he failed the Jedi way for what he did, and went into 3 months of isolation and meditation to remove the taint of the 86 lives from his soul.

Had the larger ship done anything to engage the Jedi, civilian traffic, or the system patrol ships, I would have been more forgiving. But I went out of my way to point out that they had not, and the jedi had not communicated "yo this is jedi thanos, you are carrying 2 pilots suspected of murduring a senator. You are ordered to stand to and prepare to be boarded" or even scanned the ship to get a registry, the approx strength of the ship, or anyother info. he fired 2 torpedoes, and acted as judge and juror, without due process.

Fred Getce
20 October 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson

My point is not that the character should know what's going on but that he has made no attempt to find out.

Awarding a DSP should not be based on both want they don't do and what they do. No one can win than. Players would always gain a DSP in those situations.

The Jedi wouldn't even know whether or not it would have done any good. Do they have an open general channel? Do they even have ship to ship communications? Do they understand basic? To many variables here to deal with. Also the Jedi has no idea if stopping to chat is going to allow the assassins to escape. Just because they don't fire on him/her or others ships is not a reason to exonerate their actions or give them the benefit of the doubt.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

Even if they were cold-hearted killers, which the evidence available to the player suggests they're not, is it right to immediately destroy them?


You said they fired on a senator's ship and destroyed and I am inferring that from your description the Jedi was there to see this happen, so there is evidence of them being cold blooded killers. Or have you forgotten to mention something? :raised: Now IF the two ships are only "believed" to have been involved with the death of a senator, but no one saw these two ships do it, than yes the Jedi is getting a DSP. BUT based on your current version of the story the Jedi SAW IT HAPPEN. They killed someone. I could propose this is not the first time they have killed someone. It could be, but I don't know that, so in my book they are cold blooded killers until I find out they are not.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

At the very least it's not very Jedi - the Jedi is not eliminating a threat. The threat was to the senator, and it has passed.

What!? :? Dude they killed someone right in front of the Jedi. They are a threat to every one and anyone. Anyone who is willing to kill someone is a threat to the people of the galaxy. Again the Jedi saw them kill someone. He did not see them fire warning shots. He did not hear them over a general hailing to the senator's ship about anything. He saw them fire, hit and blow up a ship with a Republic senator, than make a run for it. What would you do if you saw two hells angels blow up a limo with a government official and than make a run for it to a semi? If you had a gun you would fire back to stop them. If they make it to the truck you fire on the truck. If the truck explodes to a lucky shot that sparks off near gas fumes near the engine or something and kills 27 people who were on board, oh well; nothing you could have done to prevent that(other than letting them go which WOULD be a DSP act). It won't look good on a report for 1 destroyed truck and 27 people dead, but it is not a dark side action. A dark side action would be if the Jedi killed the hells angels for being hells angels or because they looked like "rough characters".


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

Though it is not implausible to suspect the assassins may pose a further threat in the future, it's not a certain conclusion.

That reminds me of the Yoda debate about saving Ankain and Obi-Wan and allowing Dooku to escape. Seems way to many people were willing to give Yoda a DSP for that act. What did you think of that thread? Even in our own law enforcement if you knowingly kill someone, cops will always assume you are going to do it again and will pursue you with that in mind.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

The Jedi never challenges the 'assassins', never asks them to stop, fires warning shots, attempts to use his ion cannons, use his torps specifically to try and disable the ship or even scan it to ID it.

This is only a failure of procedure which in and of itself is not DSP worthy act either. Definitely going to get a talking to from the council though.

Even if the Jedi communicated to them what are they going to say back? There is nothing they can say that would make me not want to apprehend them. Plus I probably wouldn't believe one word out of their mouth. They could say it was an accident. I'm not going to believe them. Since they did not try to stop, they are pleading guilty. Since the player did not try doesn't mean DSP. But it would be a transgression.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

He's also damaged the prospects of discovering anything about what's actually going on, and bringing the people responsible to justice - unless you consider the killing of everyone on board the 'assassin's' ship a just response to the loss of life on the senator's.


It is a Jedi's duty to bring people to justice, yes. But if they are killed in that pursuit not much the Jedi can do about it other than try harder next time. But again that is not DSP worthy in and of itself. In conflict people can die. Jedi will attempt to bring people to justice but anything can happen as a direct result or indirect result that is beyond the control of the player. Obi-Wan jump kicked Jango off the platform on Kamino during his attempted apprehension. If Jango died should Obi-Wan get a DSP for killing his only lead on Senator Amidala's killer? I mean he defended himself, but according to your opinion because he did not know anything beyond Jango's involvment he should get a DSP for killing him. I think this is a double standard.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

This case is also, unlike the others, not a split second decision. The character has had time to see what's going on and decide on an appropriate response.

That was a scenario of not knowing the outcome of actions and the split second was not meant to be literal in your scenario. Still awarding a DSP in this case, to me, is unfair to judge a PC action based on what they did not know and to support the decision by mentioning things the PC could have done using hindsight, is not fair because not every PC can think of the things another person can.

Should the PC have ordered the ships over a general channel to halt? Yes
Should the PC have tried to scan the vessel? Yes
Should the PC have tried to target the engines only? Yes
Should the PC contact local authorities and report on the situation? Yes
Should the PC have contacted the patrol craft for orders? Yes
Should the PC have tried to instead to get a tracking device on their hull? Yes

There are whole bunch of things the PC can try if they are able to (and I can think of a whole bunch).

Just because the PC didn't think of or do all or some of these, in my opinion, is not warrant to slap a DSP. Unless there is a lot of background information that is needed to better judge the encounter. I am just going on what it seems to me.

Assassins fire. BOOM! 1 senator dead. Assassins try to escape. Jedi fires in an attempt to stop them from escaping. BOOM. Not a DSP
.

wolverine
20 October 2004, 11:45 AM
It is a Jedi's duty to bring people to justice, yes. But if they are killed in that pursuit not much the Jedi can do about it other than try harder next time.

But that is the big thing. He did not attempt any sort of justice, other than full blown execution. He did not offer the chance to surrender or anything. THAT imo is a dsp worthy event.

Now, you also say "Dude they killed someone right in front of the Jedi. They are a threat to every one and anyone. Anyone who is willing to kill someone is a threat to the people of the galaxy". So if the jedi sees a cop (undercover), or store keeper kill a robber that cop or store keeper is worthy of just being executed on the spot?

Fred Getce
20 October 2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Kelcheck

That is why the original post was writen the way it was, from the player's point of view. I added the truth in afterwords for your benifit. The player never learned about the greater slave trading that was going on, and never went to stop it. Even the player that did these actions thinks that he deserves 1-2 DSPs for what he did.

If your player agrees with your judgement, than cool. :)

My preferences are different on judging Jedi actions.


Originally posted by Kelcheck
He said he wasn't thinking, but a Jedi should do better. Killing 86 people for the actions of 2 (whether involved or not, the actions to kill were only 2) is a bit harsh. Did the captian's wife, and 2 children deserve to die?

I questioned why the hell did this guy have his family in a potentially lethal situation and would accuse the GM of weighting the encounter against me. I mean there could have been a child day care on the Death star for all we know. Sounds ludicrous I know (that always bugged me about Star Trek). Yet the rebels blew it up quicker than snot.

Yet here the pirate has his family on board a ship in a potentially lethal situation? That's whacked. I also have to wonder about this patrol craft. Didn't it attempt to communicate? Try to stop the ships? Use a tractor beam? Communicate to the Jedi? Anything? I will put a GM through their paces on this. :P


Originally posted by Kelcheck

The Jedi had no idea what was going on, nor ever made and attempt to find out. He reacted by commiting the most violent act against life that he could. and he had time. there was nearly 5 min between the time the senator was shot down, to the time he sentenced 86 people to death.

Jedi are about the moment, not the should of, could of, would of; way of life. Yoda let Dooku go, who went on to campaign against the galaxy and get millions killed in a war, just to save two people. What about that? Should Yoda be getting serious DP action for choosing an action that causes the deaths of those people? If Yoda had let Anakin and Obi-Wan get crushed he could have stopped Dooku and the clone wars may never have happened. Plus Anakin would never become Darth Vader who also killed millions. All from one simple Action Master Yoda could have altered the fate of the galaxy for the better.

Looking at that moment in hindsight, Yoda chose to save two lives in exchange for the welfare of the entire galaxy.

Between your Jedi and Yoda I would say Yoda was the worst of the two in decision making. Your Jedi fired on a ship to prevent killers from getting away. He did not know about the 86 people who were on board, yet Yoda knew Dooku would jeopardize the billions in the galaxy and that other star systems would fall to his banner if he did and he still did.


Originally posted by Kelcheck

A Jedi must have a serious mind, and must reviere life.

They do, but they are not fanatical about it. Jedi have been seen killing and maiming people throughout Star Wars movies. They are not extremists in their views. If they must resort to violence they do so without remorse because remorse is an emotion and Jedi must be emotionless in these matters. If you force their hand, they will strike. They do not turn the other cheek. You take a swing at Master Windu and he will lop your arm off at the elbow because he is one BMF.


Originally posted by Kelcheck

so where does that logic stop, if he followed the ship to a base does that base need to be destroyed with out investigation or communication? If that base is in a city, should we attack that city as they are obviously harboring the assassins? If the city is under the protectiong of the planetary government, should we call in the death star? Where does the punishment for 2 pilots end?


Your reaching here. Any time a GM finds themself reaching to support a decision, the decision was probably a wrong one. I've done this a few times myself. Find myself going on and keep adding to the story until I have completely blown the original situation all out of whack to prove a point. I mean look at the movies and books. Many people die because of the actions of others (or inaction). Some are dark side worthy and some are not. Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Kia-Mundi, Luke, etc. They all have commited acts that in hindsight were wrong and 'evil'.

The only Jedi on film to knowingly commit evil has been Anakin. Yoda lets Dooku go fully knowing how much destruction this influential man can cause. Mace Windu kills Jango without any regard to whether this guy has a family to support or if Jango's family is being held hostage by Dooku for his services. We the audience know, but none of the Jedi knew this. They are all about the moment.


Originally posted by Kelcheck

I would have perfered that he role play instead of jumping to violence. funny thing is he is my longest time player and he knows that I don't tolerate that kind of hack N slash (his words) in my games, he just wasn't thinking. after the fact he realised that he had many more options left open to him, he feels that he failed the Jedi way for what he did, and went into 3 months of isolation and meditation to remove the taint of the 86 lives from his soul.


I think you may be punishing the player for not following in your design. I have an ex-Marine who really gets into roleplaying. He has had lapses of role playing and chosen the quickest road through combat and destroyd a moment that was important to the story arc. After wards he regrets it, but it does happen from time to time. I say look to the Jedi code. The only part the character failed on was there is no ignorance, only knowledge. I would rule it a transgression but not a full DSP. To get a full DSP a Jedi would have to make a decision that faisl on all four counts of the Jedi code or directly call upon the darkside or use a force power that draws its strength from the darkside.


Originally posted by Kelcheck

...acted as judge and juror, without due process.

The Jedi do that. Watch the movies. Did Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan ask Darth Maul questions before they ignited their lightsabres or give him a chance to surrender? Did Obi-Wan at any point during his fight with Jango ask him to surrender? There are times when Jedi are jury, judge, and executioner. When ever they ignite their lightsabres that is the role they are commited too. It is the GMs job to decide if the Jedi was correct in thinking this way. Was there sufficient reason to doubt this course of action? If there is doubt then the lightsabre should remain at their side.

Your Jedi acted on reason he had. They just killed a senator. It is unlikly they will turn themselves in. It is even more unlikely they will surrender to one lone Jedi and his starfighter when they got a capital ship nearby. It is simple reasoning to assume the ship is apart of this murder since they knowingly picked up the ships. Given with just those facts and that the ship can get away I wouldn't punish for choosing to fire on them. Should have the Jedi communicated to the ships to stop. Yes, but I doubt it would have done any good and would the Jedi even belive it would? I doubt it.

Now if there was an insentive for the Jedi to communicate to the ship, like have the Jedi make a perception check to notice the ship is an older design from the stenness star system normally used as a refuge transport or something. If you want your players to do certain things it is not wrong to nudge them in that direction.

Well you asked for a GM call on this and I gave it. I wouldn't have given a DSP, but I would have role played out the consequences of the action in a big way. I will post some of my own experiences tonight and you guys can run me though the paces? ;)

Rogue Janson
20 October 2004, 01:48 PM
originally posted by Fred Getche
You said they fired on a senator's ship and destroyed and I am inferring that from your description the Jedi was there to see this happen, so there is evidence of them being cold blooded killers. Or have you forgotten to mention something? Now IF the two ships are only "believed" to have been involved with the death of a senator, but no one saw these two ships do it, than yes the Jedi is getting a DSP. BUT based on your current version of the story the Jedi SAW IT HAPPEN. They killed someone. I could propose this is not the first time they have killed someone. It could be, but I don't know that, so in my book they are cold blooded killers until I find out they are not.
There is evidence of them being killers - though we of course know this is not exactly the case, which hammers home the point about not jumping to conclusions. Perhaps "cold-blooded" is the wrong choice of words. What I meant to emphasise was that they have shown that they are keen to minimise casualties by only disabling pursuing craft.

Anyone who is willing to kill someone is a threat to the people of the galaxy.
:raised: I assume you don't literally mean this statement. You say Jedi are all about the moment, that Obi-Wan didn't hesitate kicking Jango off the city. But Obi-Wan was engaged in a fight for his life with Jango. My point about the 'assassins' not being a threat is that they have carried out one violent act. They have shown that they are not an immediate threat to the Jedi or anyone around him, so the Jedi is not preventing an imminent evil act.

In fact, far from living in the moment, this Jedi has calmly watched for five minutes, then decided that his best option is to fire a torpedo at the ship, with the possibilty of destroying it. His justification for this? Either some kind of rough justice, which I think is a bit farfetched, or the assumption that these people will do more harm in the future - an conclusion that he has little basis for jumping to. In fact, he's decided that not just those that carried out the actual assassination, but everyone associated with it is worthy of violent retribution.


The Jedi do that. Watch the movies. Did Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan ask Darth Maul questions before they ignited their lightsabres or give him a chance to surrender? Did Obi-Wan at any point during his fight with Jango ask him to surrender? There are times when Jedi are jury, judge, and executioner. When ever they ignite their lightsabres that is the role they are commited too. It is the GMs job to decide if the Jedi was correct in thinking this way. Was there sufficient reason to doubt this course of action? If there is doubt then the lightsabre should remain at their side.
I'm not sure there's an example in the movies of a Jedi acting like the Jedi in Kelchek's game. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan know that Darth Maul is a Sith, the embodiment of evil, so he's not likely to relent or answer questions. Obi-Wan was engaged in a life or death struggle - he was never in a position to ask for Jango's surrender and could be pretty sure that unless he was defeated in combat, Jango wouldn't surrender. It should be noted that anyone facing a Jedi would know that quarter will be given if asked for.

The difference is precisely what you're saying about living in the moment - had the 'assassins' in the example been about to attack the senator, or looked like they might imminently attack someone else, destroying their ship wouldn't have been such a problem (not necessarily ideal, but not DSP worthy). It's the fact that the Jedi had plenty of time to mull things over and, just when it was clear they weren't an immediate threat, decided to take extreme action. During this time the Jedi has had plenty of time to try other means and consider other options. The fact he hasn't made the slightest attempt to do so, choosing instead the most violent course of action available makes it a DSP worthy act.

Something that we haven't really considered here, I suppose, is the character's state of mind, which could influence the DSP decision. The reaction of the player suggests that the character wasn't thinking properly and would regret his decision afterwards. Using lethal force without thinking properly is liable to lead to dark side points in my book.

Kelcheck
20 October 2004, 10:01 PM
WOW
The insults and flames aside, I think instead of falling in, I will post the results so we can move on to other senerios. I think it is obvious that some see things different than others, some very different.

k1: the character recieved a dark side point for his actions. He used violence as a first resort rather than a last resort. He murdered 86 people for the crimes of 2. The player, nor any other member of the group objected to this

k2: the character recieved a stern warning. His actions were excesivly violent and show offish. But what clinched it for me was lying to the authorities about what happened. This showwed that even he felt that his actions were a bit harsh. If the Man had died, then I would have given him a DSP

k3: Dark side point. The Jedi used the force to kill 2 people that were not a threat, and not attacking him, or anyone else. He used violence and murder as a first responce, instead of taking an action to determine their intentions.

k4: again the Jedi used Telekinesis to kill. and Used it in the most grand, show off manner that he could. I had just warned him about using TK to kill,(senerio k3) and he did it again no more than 15 rounds later. I did not use unknow info in my judgment, but even the other players at the table thought that there would be people hiding in those buildings. This was not used in my desision, simply his choice to use the force to kill, when other options were open to him. He called this fog of war, but as a Jedi he needs to be above that. I gave him a warning however against my better judgment, as he was acting to protect the members of his team, and this was his only saving grace.

Ok on to other topics, does anyone have anyother senerios to play with?

Fred Getce
21 October 2004, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Rogue Janson

There is evidence of them being killers - though we of course know this is not exactly the case, which hammers home the point about not jumping to conclusions. Perhaps "cold-blooded" is the wrong choice of words. What I meant to emphasise was that they have shown that they are keen to minimise casualties by only disabling pursuing craft.

That is completely irrelevant. Just because they did not attempt to not kill people can not be inferred to say they are good at heart. Guy kills a man and gets in a car and take soff. He only shoots the tires of the cop car chasing him.

Do you honestly believe the cops will be lenient with him because he only tried to disable their car? Would they give him the benefit of doubt on his actions? Shooting at a cop is the worst thing you can do. It almost insures your screwed. Same thing here. If they fired on a system patrol craft, whether they fired to disable it or not, does not bode well for them. I mean was this a military or civillian police force craft? If they dstroyed one ship, than fire and disable another all with in the same crime scene, I would label them public enemy number one.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

:raised: I assume you don't literally mean this statement.

Well than you would never of made it in law enforcement. If you knowingly kill someone, the law will assume you have done it before and that if they don't stop you, than you will kill again. May seem stupid but that is how they think about people who kill. I mean it is a hell of a thing to kill someone. Anyone would agree that if someone kills someone, the killer cannot be trusted, and must be either apprehended for the greater safety of the public or if need be, eliminated.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

In fact, far from living in the moment, this Jedi has calmly watched for five minutes...

This is probably where I would agree with the decision, but I would still have several questions of what were both GM and player doing during this time. Was the GM trying to offer ideas or hint to the player of other possibilities? Did the player check for survivors? A lot of questions. With out more information I feel this has gone towards a grey area. A damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

I'm not sure there's an example in the movies of a Jedi acting like the Jedi in Kelchek's game. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan know that Darth Maul is a Sith, the embodiment of evil, so he's not likely to relent or answer questions.

They never gave him a chance, but do you believe he would have taken the chance if he had. I don't. Same thing could be argued for the killers and the cap ship.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

Obi-Wan was engaged in a life or death struggle - he was never in a position to ask for Jango's surrender and could be pretty sure that unless he was defeated in combat, Jango wouldn't surrender.

There was a lull in their battle at one point, where Obi-Wan could have shouted for him to surrender. He didn't. If the the GM ruled a DSP just because Obi-Wan did not give Jango the way out of their fight peacefully, would you agree?


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

It should be noted that anyone facing a Jedi would know that quarter will be given if asked for.

If I was in Jango's shoes I would doubt the validity of that statement. Granted Jango killed someone in the Jedi's presence which would validate Obi-Wan's need to draw his sabre as soon as he was spotted. But Jedi are not as well known for such things because it is also well known that if a Jedi draws their sabre, someone or somethings going to die.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

The difference is precisely what you're saying about living in the moment - had the 'assassins' in the example been about to attack the senator, or looked like they might imminently attack someone else, destroying their ship wouldn't have been such a problem (not necessarily ideal, but not DSP worthy).

But again if the Jedi attacked them before they actually did it he would be labled a killer instead. Just because two ships approach another on an attack vector does not equate to actually shooting until they do. Again it sounds stupid but that is how both law enforcement and the military think. If your a cop and you see a guy running with a gun down the street toward a senator and you shoot him outright your in the wrong (he could have been a security agent, FBI, CIA, etc.). Now if the guy with the gun kills the senator than runs away. Shoots at and disables a cop car by shooting the engine block. Gets into a large van and the van begins to pull away and you shoot at it and destroy it. It is found after teh fire is put out it was filled with 11 people. 8 men, 1 women and two kids. Now what? Are you tried for murder? Are you suspended from service?

Granted you never shouted out for him to stop or halt, but is that all the permission you need for lethal force to be justified?


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

It's the fact that the Jedi had plenty of time to mull things over and, just when it was clear they weren't an immediate threat, decided to take extreme action.

He is still a immediate threat. The only time I would rule him not an immediate threat if he was surrounded, by several law enforcement people in a disabled ship. Than he is not an immediate threat.

They just killed someone however. They are in a functioning ship (with very powerful weapons compared to a starfighter), and could do who knows what else with virtually no one to stop them.


Originally posted by Rogue Janson

Using lethal force without thinking properly is liable to lead to dark side points in my book.

True, but not always. B)

Fred Getce
21 October 2004, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck

The insults and flames aside

I didn't see any insult or flames? :?

You asked what was our call on a scenario in your game. I gave mine. It was challenged. I defended it (still believe in it too).

I will admit the debates can go on for pages here but I think it is a good thing. Also we passionately defend our ideas, beliefs, opinions (even if they get heavy handed), but I very rarely see real insults or flames directed at the people involved in the thread.

RemyLeBeau
21 October 2004, 07:37 AM
Again, in the required 'surrender' people are mentioning, I'd like to point out that Mace Windu killed Jango (or is it Boba? I can never get it straight...) Fett in the arena on... um... oh, this is sad... that one planet where the Clone Wars started... =^C

Anyway, yeah - Mace killed Jango without much more than a glance. So what's with that? Following the logic of *ahem* some people here, he should get 3+ DSP's.

Yeah. Just to bring things into proportion.

wolverine
21 October 2004, 08:07 AM
If they must resort to violence they do so without remorse because remorse is an emotion and Jedi must be emotionless in these matters. If you force their hand, they will strike

And that IMO is part of it. How was he forced to strike? He CHOSE TO.


Mace Windu kills Jango without any regard to whether this guy has a family to support or if Jango's family is being held hostage by Dooku for his services

You are quite right, Mace did kill jango. IN A COMBAT SITUATION. he did not arbitrarily walk up to him, after witnessing something, NOT communicate, not see if there was anything else he could do.


Was the GM trying to offer ideas or hint to the player of other possibilities?

IMO unless it was a newbie, why should the gm be offering hints/other possibilities.


Granted you never shouted out for him to stop or halt, but is that all the permission you need for lethal force to be justified?

Militarily yes. Part of the rules for use of deadily force states "Deadily force is that force a person uses, which would cause or which he/she knows or should no would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm. Deadily force is used as a last resort, when ALL other lesser means have failed."

Where in what this guy did, do you see him using any lesser means?


Again, in the required 'surrender' people are mentioning, I'd like to point out that Mace Windu killed Jango (or is it Boba? I can never get it straight...) Fett in the arena on

He had already gave him a chance, when he had his lightsaber poised to his throat. Jango chose to fight back.

JediJester
21 October 2004, 09:04 AM
On the Jango-Mace:
Mace, going into the situation, knew that the people on that balcony were watching 1 Jedi knight, 1 padawan, and 1 senator being put to death. On the walk up there, he sees a man in armor loaded up with weaponry, an obvious threat. What's more, Mace could have identified Jango as the "mysterious bounty hunter" from Anakin and Obi-Wan's decriptions (since there can't be that many people running around in that distinctive armor) and this person had already proved a match for one Jedi Knight. In either case, the lightsaber to the throat was an obvious sign that Jango wasn't to move and a precaution against a figure who'd held his own against another Jedi.

As for who struck first, that was Jango. Mace turned his attention from Jango when the combat droids started up the hall towards the balcony. He was blocking blaster fire from the droids when Jango shot at him with the flame thrower. Mace launched himself out of the way and off the balcony to battle against the droids for a while on the arena floor. At that point in time, Jango was still up on the balcony watching the fight below.

Rogue Janson
21 October 2004, 09:31 AM
Anyone who is willing to kill someone is a threat to the people of the galaxy.
I assume you don't literally mean this statement.
My point here was this - as you've made perfectly clear, the Jedi are more than willing to kill people. Does that make them a threat to the galaxy? You mean anyone who is willing to kill someone without 'good' reason, or illegally is a threat.
I can just imagine Obi-Wan wandering into the cantina, seeing Greedo's smoking corpse and casually lopping off Han's head because he's a threat to the galaxy.


If I was in Jango's shoes I would doubt the validity of that statement. Granted Jango killed someone in the Jedi's presence which would validate Obi-Wan's need to draw his sabre as soon as he was spotted. But Jedi are not as well known for such things because it is also well known that if a Jedi draws their sabre, someone or somethings going to die.
Really? I wouldn't agree with this at all. Have a quick look at 'Fighting' in the Force section of the CRB, if you can. A Jedi who ignites his sabre must be prepared to take a life, but "if a Jedi can end a fight without killing an opponent, so much the better." It's not like some kind of sword that has to be blooded before it can be sheated again. To my mind, though Jedi will kill you if they have to, everyone knows they would prefer not to and are honourable opponents who will accept a surrender - indeed if we're talking DSPs, I'd come down hard on any Jedi (or any character) who didn't. It's possible Jango Fett, as a Mandalorian, might doubt this, but that's another matter.

In the films of course, the Jedi are generally facing relentless foes who they know will ask no quarter - Mandalorians, droids, Sith, etc.. So this is why we don't see them ask for surrender, at least once the fighting kicks off.



Originally posted by Rogue Janson
I'm not sure there's an example in the movies of a Jedi acting like the Jedi in Kelchek's game. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan know that Darth Maul is a Sith, the embodiment of evil, so he's not likely to relent or answer questions.
They never gave him a chance, but do you believe he would have taken the chance if he had. I don't. Same thing could be argued for the killers and the cap ship.
Could it really be argued?
They have clearly rejected the challenges of the patrol ships, but maybe knowing they've got a Jedi on their tail might be different. Maybe. The point is that the Jedi immediately assumes the worst, he does nothing to verify his assumption using the means at his disposal - such as consulting the Force.



Originally posted by Rogue Janson
The difference is precisely what you're saying about living in the moment - had the 'assassins' in the example been about to attack the senator, or looked like they might imminently attack someone else, destroying their ship wouldn't have been such a problem (not necessarily ideal, but not DSP worthy).[quote]
But again if the Jedi attacked them before they actually did it he would be labled a killer instead. Just because two ships approach another on an attack vector does not equate to actually shooting until they do. Again it sounds stupid but that is how both law enforcement and the military think. If your a cop and you see a guy running with a gun down the street toward a senator and you shoot him outright your in the wrong (he could have been a security agent, FBI, CIA, etc.).
That's true, but misses the point slightly. I'm not saying it's easy to know when someone's about to attack, just that if you do know, great, stop them.

Now if the guy with the gun kills the senator than runs away. Shoots at and disables a cop car by shooting the engine block. Gets into a large van and the van begins to pull away and you shoot at it and destroy it. It is found after teh fire is put out it was filled with 11 people. 8 men, 1 women and two kids. Now what? Are you tried for murder? Are you suspended from service?
I would say quite possibly. Have you called on the person to stop? Have you considered chasing them and trying to stop them using less violent means? Have you considered that there may be innocent people in the van - or at least people who don't bear enough responsibility to justify killing them? Have you even tried to remember the license plate number?


Originally posted by Rogue Janson
It's the fact that the Jedi had plenty of time to mull things over and, just when it was clear they weren't an immediate threat, decided to take extreme action.
He is still a immediate threat. The only time I would rule him not an immediate threat if he was surrounded, by several law enforcement people in a disabled ship. Than he is not an immediate threat.
They're not an immediate threat because they are just jumping into hyperspace. Admittedly you might say the Jedi wouldn't know this (especially as he hadn't bothered to scan the ship) but I assume it's reasonably clear when a ship's heading into hyperspace. (Though we don't know the specifics here, or how Kelcheck runs things.)

In the end I really don't feel it fits with the Star Wars ethos. Shooting fleeing enemies is something the bad guys do. I can imagine Darth Vader calmly waiting to eliminate some Rebel assassins. I can imagine Obi-Wan trying to bring them to justice.

Fred Getce
21 October 2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by wolverine

But that is the big thing. He did not attempt any sort of justice, other than full blown execution. He did not offer the chance to surrender or anything. THAT imo is a dsp worthy event.

Even if the Jedi communicated to the ship to surrender or he would open fire. They don't surrender. So he opens fire and destroys the ship. Then finds out there was the pirate bosse's wife and two kids on board, after the fact. Would you still slap a DSP? Does the line between light and dark waver on whether a warning is given or not when it comes to attacking fleeing assassins?

If the Jedi had scanned the ships and failed to gain any knowledge about them. He shouted a warning to the fighters and they ignored it. He shouted a warning to the capital ship and they ignored it. He fired a warning shot and they did not acknowledge it. So he fires directly, hits the ship, and destroys the ship and all the people on board, would you still give out a DSP? If the Jedi tried all the options and they all failed because of bad rolling or what not, he fires and 86 people are dead, does the DSP still apply?

I am curious about this one.

Reminds me of Dave Bozwell shouting "EVIL TEMPTRESS!" before killing an NPC barmaid for the easy XP. :D


Originally posted by wolverine

So if the jedi sees a cop (undercover), or store keeper kill a robber that cop or store keeper is worthy of just being executed on the spot?

Your taking it out of context. How about an undercover cop shoots and kills Senator Amidala? A shop keeper shoots and kills Senator Amidala? Should a Jedi move to intercept them? The killer flees after killing senator Amidala, should the Jedi assume the worst about them and prepare for battle? He catches them just as they get into a speeder and swings his saber at the speeder engine. Hits it and the speeder explodes killing the assassin. Is this a DSP action? The Jedi did not shout a warning to stop to the killer at any time during the chase, considering that the killer was probably not going to do what ever the Jedi says anyway, so whould that be the deciding factor of whether a DSP is warranted after the fact?

Besides we actually have a movie example from AOTC to compare it too. Obi-Wan and Anakin chasing Zam Wessel after she tried to kill Senator Amidala. Anakin nearly killed her twice. Obi-Wan cut off her arm which could have put her into shock and killed her. They never shouted for her to surrender at any time during the chase. Obi-Wan had her trapped in a night club. He could have ordered the night club to settle down, turn off the music and inform them of what to do so they could find the felon, but they didn't. They also did not call for back up or alert local law enforcement they were in hot pursuit of a suspect, who fired on a Jedi I might add. Should they be getting DSPs? Not only that but the Jedi Council did not seem upset in how the whole affair was handled. Reckless driving of Anakin. The use of force in a civllian night club. I am still saying no DSP based on only the known facts. To me it is a very grey area.

Well I didn't mean to hijack the thread, so sorry.

Fred Getce
21 October 2004, 02:15 PM
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I had worked up some counter arguements, but it would do nothing but further hi-jack the thread.

So here are my scenarios.

Scenario 1
D6
A group of players are moving through Imperial space in a Pro-Imperial system. I ask the pilot to make a piloting check to fly through the area wihch contained derelict ships, space containers and other obstacles. DN of 10. Player rolls 4D+2 and fumbles. Nothing but ones and twos and a one on the wild die. I rule that the ship careened of course and sideswiped a container. They roll hull 6D+1 vs. 4D damage. Ship is fine but the container is damaged. The Imperial Prefect onboard the space station sees this and orders them to stop for a starship piloting violation, reckless endangerment of space. They are told to power down and a shuttle will be dispatched to board them. The standard penalty, assuming you are not wanted, is 500 credits or 10 days in jail with impounding fees of 2000 credits. The Imperial Prefect also informs them two TIE Fighters are being dispatched to guaruntee their cooperation. The player captain does as he is instructed and powers down the engines, with the Jedi Padawan telling him to make a run for it, because they are Imperials and he is a Jedi. The ship is now dead in space. The Jedi Padawan pushes him and the co-pilot aside and begins to power up the guns and starts to aim for the incoming TIES. The players than wrestled him to the ground for trying to start a fire fight, which they averted, at the last minute. I ruled a TRANSGRESSION point for endangering lives and the want to start firing weapons at the incoming TIEs, which would have had no problem destroying a civillian ship of such low stats. I don't think it was a full blown DSP.

What would you do?

Scenario 2
D6
Same group and later that same session. They are now on a Pro-Imperial space station refueling. The Jedi Padawan decideds to remain in his cabin until they leave. One of the PCs notices Zin Classet, a well known bounty hunter for the Empire. He is reported to be looking for people who are classified as Force senstive. The Jedi is warned to remain on the ship and out of sight until they can refuel and leave. Instead he now decides to go the bar and begins to "alert" everyone about who he is and that "If I ever came across a bounty hunter who murdered my bretheren, I would show him the error of his way." I ruled a TRANSGRESSION because he was pursuing a fight of revenge to fight Zin over past Jedi deaths. He also, once again, was placing his fellow ship mates into harms way.

What would you do?

Scenario 3
Same session. They are on a planet that is having a civil war. The players get involved in a long winded session. As they are leaving, the Jedi Padawan decides to use Absorb Disipate energy so he can get close to some thugs and steal their high grade equipment and weapons while they are firing at him. They are 40 metres away. They fire and hit. He has 2D in control against 5D+2 damage. I roled and his arm was blown off, BUT I secretly reduced his damage to wounded once. He wisely decided to leave at that point.

What would you do?

Scenario 4
D6
Next session the players are on Kessel, trying to steal spice from the Imperials to pay off Big Bungji. They come up with a daring (but foolish) plan to raid a wharehouse of spice. They have one player act as a diversion while another picks off the stormtroopers with a sniper rifle. The Jedi Padawan will have nothing to do with it (the one good decision he had all night). However when the chips are down the player pilot decides to head in and rescue them. The Jedi Padawan wants to leave because the planet has been alerted to their presence. The player pilot refuses.

At this the Padawan pulls out a blaster while the player pilot has his back turned and places the barrel on the back of his head and began to dictate what they were going to do instead.

I ruled a full blown DSP, at this point and I even warned him before he did it. He still did it and tried to explain what he was going to do after he had the pistol to his head.

What would you do?

Oh by the way I have ruled he can never play a Jedi. Ever.

JediJester
21 October 2004, 04:32 PM
Fred Getce: Scenario 1
I don't think I'd even give him a transgression point here (unless there were more than just the PC's and their followers/henchmen aboard). Let his fellow crew mates and even the Jedi council deal with him. He's still a padawan, so if he kept acting in a manner such as this the Jedi Council might decide that he's not fit to continue training to be a Jedi. As for his companions dealing with him, they now know that he's an idiot and next time might duct tape him into a chair.

Fred Getce: Scenario 2
Again, I don't think this is a transgression. Soon after he starts his bragging, the bounty hunter shows up (tipped off by one of his sources in the bar) and ambushes the stupid padawan. Hopefully, his friends will rush to his aid before the bounty hunter takes him down and hauls him away. The main point being, the padawan should get maimed and mauled at least for being stupid enough to announce his pressence like that in "enemy" territory.

Fred Getce: Scenario 3
Okay, I feel you were way tooo nice to him here. I would have just let his arm get blown off. I may try to keep my players from death, but I'm all for maiming them, especially when it's their own stupidity that leads to it.

Fred Getce: Scenario 4
I would have only given him a transgression point for this move. Again, his actions will have consequences later on. Not only will he now be known as a coward, but if any of his shipmates survive, they probably will never trust him to watch their backs again.


Oh by the way I have ruled he can never play a Jedi. Ever. Good call here. Just as a general rule, I never allow anyone to play a Jedi until they've had at least one gaming session with me and have proven that they can actually roleplay.

wolverine
21 October 2004, 10:54 PM
Let's see.

Fred situation 1: Severe warning.
Sit 2: warning. If within 2 sessions of #1, make it a tic mark. If gets another tic mark within the next 3 sessions, moves up to dsp on the spot.
Sit 3. Bye bye arm AND severe warning, as he is using the force for personal profit (stealing).
sit 4. DSP! Made a threat to someone with out provocation and to save his own butt.

Kelcheck
21 October 2004, 11:32 PM
WOW, this guy is interesting, are you sure we don't sare players. He's going to get himself or others killed. I showwed your post to my group and they all said they would have shot him for those things, at least stunned him:D

Anyway
Senerio 1: Agree, He is choosing violece to solve his problems without exploring other options. Although he didn't (or want able to) act on his intentions, this is still not the path of the Jedi. He put the group at great risk to save his rear. I always thought a Jedi would be more likely to sacrafice their lives to save others, not risk others to save them selves. Not quite a dark side point. But I would warn him that he is acting against his code, and he is sliding into a grey area (transgresion)

Senerio 2: Again agree, Not a Dark side act, but not smart, and not Jedi like. They are in a Pro imperial station, so his actions again could have endangered the group. In my game he might have found himself left behind, or knocked out my another member of my group, and hauled away.
"don't mind cousin eddy, he's not well. He thinks his glow rod is his lightsaber, and auto chef is his master, we will be on our way now"

Senerio 3: What?!?!?! A jedi trying to use the force to steal for his own sake? Dang! Sorry to sound cold, but I have to agree with the common oppenion here. Blow his arm off. From then on the cold metal arm he recieves as a replacement could serve as a constant reminder of what it is to be a Jedi.

senerio 4:Ok the Jedi not going along was a good thing. But... When he pulled a gun on the character to stop him from rescuing his team mates. That is very dark side. His his first name Darth? Wow fully agree. I (and my players ) have to say that your other players are very forgiving. If a character did this with our current group, they would either be dead, or turned over to the empire, or marroned. I asked Tar Nak (our groups pilot) what he would have done, he told me he would have aimed that ship strait at the ground at full thrust, "go ahead and shoot me, there is no way you could get me off the controls and gain control of this ship by yourself if I am dead. If I'm going, your going in a far worse way" (don't know if that would have applied to your senerio, but found it funny) Dark side point, plus even if the character survieves, perhaps the player should select a differnt type of character that fits his stype of play better. maybe a merc, or pirate.

I think you made the right call not to let him play a jedi anymore< I would have done the same

wolverine
22 October 2004, 07:47 AM
senerio 4:Ok the Jedi not going along was a good thing. But... When he pulled a gun on the character to stop him from rescuing his team mates. That is very dark side. His his first name Darth? Wow fully agree. I (and my players ) have to say that your other players are very forgiving. If a character did this with our current group, they would either be dead, or turned over to the empire, or marroned. I asked Tar Nak (our groups pilot) what he would have done, he told me he would have aimed that ship strait at the ground at full thrust, "go ahead and shoot me, there is no way you could get me off the controls and gain control of this ship by yourself if I am dead. If I'm going, your going in a far worse way" (don't know if that would have applied to your senerio, but found it funny) Dark side point, plus even if the character survieves, perhaps the player should select a differnt type of character that fits his stype of play better. maybe a merc, or pirate.

Or do what one of my characters did. When that happened, with a Dark jedi (well fallen one) we were trying to bring in for questioning, and the rest of the group were fighting off stormies, i hit the emergency powershutdown button, which caused us to crash.

Kelcheck
24 October 2004, 08:34 PM
A jedi is fighing a bounty hunter after a long battle. The hunter IS a murder, and he has been seen killing members of the Jedi's party in the most violent ways. During the fight the hunter disarms the jedi and seperates him from his saber, then throws down his own weapon, drops into a hand to hand stance and says
"Let's settle this as it should be, Hand to hand is the basis of all combat, and the only true messure of a warrior" The jedi and the hunter trade blows for a couple rounds, when the Jedi force points a kick to the head (-1D STR) of the hunter, using the force points doubling ability on damage (doing 8D kick damage to the Hunters 3D head). I am not questioning the action, but what about using the force point for damage? Is this worthy of a warning, ( I know it is not worthy of a DSP, but is using the force for extra damage, when normal damage would have done fine a grey area) and does the Jedi get the force point back...maybe a bonus point as well? What if the kick was enough to kill the Hunter? (kiling with a force point?)

The kick ended up putting the Hunter in a coma, he now has a bed in a hospital on bimsarii (sp)

Kelcheck
24 October 2004, 08:49 PM
This is from wolverine's Bounty Hunter thread. It is the back story of the hunter that is refered to in the above post.

A character had a large bounty on her head I mean LARGE, she pulled the old seduce and kill routine on a Moff with a rich family. The government placed a 1 million credit bounty on her, but the family upped it to 1 million dead, 5 million alive. Eventually the group got wind of this and got more than a little freaked out, not wanting to attracked to much heat, they were pirates after all and all probably had some piddly little bounty somewhere. (actually 2 of the crew memebers were deep cover NRI agents, something that the other players as well as their charaters didn't know)

First they thought about turning her in, and this was a serious area of conversation until the Lordani NRI agent (who was raise by former slave parents) put a stop to it, their next plan was to clone her, without animating her, and turn in the dead clone to erase the bounty (they didn't realize that this subterfugie wouldn't work, but as Gm i wasn't going to tell them) At this point in the game a new player joined us ( a mutual friend of all of ours, just had never played wiht us, but he only had a little bit of time before he had to go back to school) and played a bumbling mechanic that joined the crew to get away from his boring life.

Little did the group know that the new player was playing a bounty hunter looking for the character. he played it well too, collected alot of info on the group (to be later sold) It was fun to play it out for the 5-6 weeks he was with us, constantly having to cover up his skills and declair combat rolls as being lower than they were, just to keep his cover. In the time he played no one ever suspected his true nature. Until the group set down on a planet to make a deal with a black market cloner, they set off, leaving the charater with the bounty back at the ship (to protecter from potential bounty hunters that might be lurking in the shadow port) with the "New Character" to guard the ship.

The entire group left the 2 together to protect the ship and keep it warmed up incase they had to leave in a hurry. The bounty hunter waited for them to leave, while the hunted character went to make lunch for the 2, they ate lunch, he thanked her, then stunned her, and left with the groups ship, gear and most of thier money. On his way out he signalled the local Imperial command to the presence of the shadow port and black market, as well as the groups location. ...

he stopped playing after this, (he was only available for a few weeks, something that only I knew) This fit, because with a 5 million credit bounty, plus the chunk of change he got for the shadow port and the group, we both figured that the character would have retired to live a life of luxury on the beach.

the chearacter was turned over to be run as an NPC. They were several years later able to track his spending, and hack his accounts. they couldn't get to him but they could get his money. there wasn't much left, but they donated it to the NR. Unfortunatly this caused more harm than good, as he needed to get more money now. He took a contract to kill leia during a public speach. They tracked him down, and felt that they knew where he was hiding. they checked into the same hotel as him, waited for him to come back to his room (from across the hall) and gave him some time to relax. right before they made entry the jedi in the group did life sence and life detection, and he was able to tell that there was some one in the room about where the bed should be, and could tell that he had met and knew this person before. they busted in to find the bell hop that had helped them up tied to the bed, with a thermal detinator rigged to the door. BOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!. He bested them again!. they barely survived, one by wearing heavy armor (that was fused into one piece from the blast as the wearer was launched through the building, while the other character jumped out the window and landed in the pool below (had to go with the holly wood cliche, just had to) the barely contious jedi character (the NRI agent from before had discovered his force talent) was pulled from the pool by the hunter, unable to move, or even focus, he could only make out his voice. The Hunter reached into the jedi's pocket and removed the data pad that had all the info for thier new ship, shot the Jedi in the stomache and left with thier new ship again!!!.

The characters awoke a couple days later in the hospital, and were eventually released. The tracked thier ship to Coruscant, and found it parked in orbit, as they were just about to dock with thier ship, it exploded. ... After yet another rescure they went down to the planet and were just able to stop him from killing the chief of state. But alas He escaped again after a fight on the roof of a speeder bus with teh characters.


Several years later while working for a Hutt, the group found the Hunter again. Now he had aquiered some awesome bounty hunter armor . I discribed a beautiful fight on the landing pad for the hunters ship, imagining the lightsaber vs blaster fight in the heavy falling snow at night. every blast and blade glowing and refelcting off a thousand flakes. He was beaten trying to escape, but not after a long fight, where both parties had expended all their weapons and gear and it got down to hand to hand. the Jedi delivered a lucky kick to the hunters head, with enough damage to place him in a coma. He now resides in a hospital on brimsaari (sp)

he may come back some day, as i have plenty of plans for this group's nemisis. He has always been the one that go away, they even feel that slipping into a coma was a way of escaping paying for his crimes.

Kelcheck
24 October 2004, 09:02 PM
Sorry forgot to add this from the Bounty Hunter's charcter sheet

Zendar Fromak (aka Morgan) Ė Bounty hunter on retainer to Jorga the Hutt early in his career. Captured a young Kelcheck Horizon and delivered him to Jorga for exicution. Later he was hot on the trail of Anria, a member of Ashcrafts crew who had a bounty on her head for five million credit for the murder of an Imperial Moff. Zendar joined the crew by posing as a displaced technician named Morgan. Zendar was not only able to capture Anria, but also steal the Groups ship, as well as sell the secret location of the Dominion of free worlds capital world to Imperial interest. This started the Imperial/ Dominion war, and forced the Dominion to call on the Sakima for aid. Several years later Morgan was hired to assassinate Leia Solo. Phathon, Tar Nak and Thanos Pitar were able to catch up with him, but once again he was able give them the slip, destroying a hotel and stealing their ship in the process. The three were barely able to stop him for killing the chief of state during a public speech, but once again he was able to escape after a brief fight and chase with Phathon Risk.
Nearly 5 years later he was again hired again by Jorga to help steal New Republic research and scientist for later experimentation. Zendarís skills had grown since their last encounter, and he was able to first take over a NR research station and capture its staff, including Tarís love Dr Qui. Later he was tracked down by Shela Enash along with 2 of Thanosís students, Maul and Garabakka. Finally he was able to consider himself a great bounty hunter again when he was not only able to capture David Lighteners SPECTRUM team, but also the Jedi Knight Thanos Pitar and the Great Tar Nak. He delivered his prisoners to Jorga, collected his payment, and was on his way to a long vacation when they escaped. He tried to flee Nar Shaddaa but was relentlessly pursued by Thanos Pitar. Zendar fought hard against Thanos and Tar, and it looked as if he would once again win. Luckily Thanos was able to use the force to serve Zendar a disabling kick to the head. Zendar Fromak no resides in a hospital on Bimmisaari, he has not yet awoken from a coma brought on by the Jediís attack.

Fred Getce
25 October 2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Kelcheck
I am not questioning the action, but what about using the force point for damage?

To me, any character whether they are Force-sensitive or not, would gain a DSP if they use a Force point to attack and cause harm. No exceptions.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." -Yoda

I take an extreme view on Dark Side Points and when they are gained. I drew the line in the sand a long time ago for my group. They like it that way. It is VERY hard to role play a Jedi or even a Force sensitive, but not as hard, in my campaigns.

IzVenjari
25 October 2004, 06:08 PM
Just to add to Fred's comment: d20 rulebook says that force points do not add to damage - don't know about d6

wolverine
26 October 2004, 04:17 AM
In d6, if you spend a FP, it doubles damage from your strength, so any melee or brawl attacks get boosted.

Kyle Pantrakahs
27 October 2004, 05:21 PM
I just have a little question I've been wondering about for awhile...

In a game I played with my brother a couple years ago (d20), my JC was sneaking into an enemy base (through the vent that no one ever looks in o'course :D) and as he came out, he failed his move silently check and made some noise. A guard started coming over to investigate.

My JC was only 1st or 2nd level at the time, and he only had the Sense feat. I said I was making a Telepathy check to plant in the guard's mind "There's nothing here."

My brother didn't have any problem with me using the skill this way, but I was just wondering how y'all would rule on this. (e.g., would Affect Mind have been more appropriate?)

IzVenjari
27 October 2004, 05:29 PM
Yeah, Affect Mind would have been better. Telepathy isn't really used to suggest as much as to communicate.

If anything, the telepathic suggestion would probably have scared him into calling for backup. :D

Kelcheck
28 October 2004, 01:11 AM
Yes affect mind might have been better. With telepathy, he would have heard a voice in his mind telling him that there is noting here. Might have freaked him out a bit

Kyle Pantrakahs
28 October 2004, 08:35 AM
LOL. All that ended up happening anyway. After I snuck past the first guard I came into a different room and another guard was right there in my face. I had no choice but to whip out the flashlight of doom :D and it all went downhill from there. 8o

wolverine
28 October 2004, 12:36 PM
Since i have poor understanding of d20 sw, how could someone use affect mind, when all they have is just sense? Would that not more likely cover receptive telepathy/esp?

JediJester
28 October 2004, 01:45 PM
My JC was only 1st or 2nd level at the time, and he only had the Sense feat. I said I was making a Telepathy check to plant in the guard's mind "There's nothing here."
I would have allowed you to do this, but I would probably have ruled that the guard either gets freaked out and calls for backup or maybe starts actually searching around for where this disembodied voice might have come from. I might have suggested sending an emotion like calm or alone (instead of a phrase). It wouldn't make the guard go away, but I would have ruled that it made him do a less thorough search (penalties to his Spot check).


Since i have poor understanding of d20 sw, how could someone use affect mind, when all they have is just sense? Would that not more likely cover receptive telepathy/esp?
In d20, the Sense feat is a rerequisite for the Telepathy skill. The Telepathy skill allows for words or emotions to be sent. It doesn't allow for mind reading or receptive telepathy (other than the fact that the target being Force Sensitive allows for easier use and longer range of the skill).

You can't use Affect Mind with the Sense feat, it's an Alter derived skill.