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Dashdar
19 June 2002, 06:57 AM
I have a player that is a non force user and has 2 DSP. Because he is not a jedi I do not really know what to do if he keeps getting DSP. the rulebook seem to say that he would just be a bad guy. I don't like the idea of one of my heroes ending up a bad guy, thought it could prvide an interesting plot twist.
Should I just make the player act more like a bad guy if he gets more pints or should I be more objective when giving a DSP to a non force user?


How he got the two DSP:

For both points my player saw an Imperial that was on the ground and unconscious. Both times the Imperials were unarmed. But the player shot each of them. I gave teh DSP b/c these imperials were clearly a non threat. Did I make a bad call?

proxima centauri
19 June 2002, 07:09 AM
Definetly deserved the DS points.

I say empower the player with bonuses when he tries to act evil. The same way you would do with a Jedi, only not as powerful. The Force is within every living being... hmmm dunno about Hutts and Toydarians though ;)

He shouldn't necessarily become evil because he acted evilly. But that definitly will influnce his reputation in any case.

reliant
19 June 2002, 07:09 AM
I think that DSP's for non-force users just act as an Evil-O-Meter. So he could have tons of DSP, and it would be completely obvious to everyone around him that he was evil. Not really even because of the points, just the fact that if he earned that many he's sure to do something bad to reveal his true nature all on his own...

Oh and as for shooting unarmed (and unconcious) imperials just because he felt like it, that is definately a DSP worthy action. I agree that he deserved the DSP for that.

Ravager_of_worlds
19 June 2002, 07:15 AM
not a bad call at all. it clearly falls under the 'killing a helpless foe' in dark side points. they may be stormtroopers, but surely they have family, friends, likes and dislikes, they may be bucketheads but they are sentient and you are stealing their life when they are helpless. sounds evil to me.

the DSPs for non-force users show an evil streak. this has little bearing on game play mechanics... unless you think a DSP save for good/evil decisions (DC 10 + DSP total) would be something to use. i use will saving throws to be able to make the decision as a player but should they fail their character has given in to their darker tendencies. others may say this is unfair... but something a player hates more than anything is having their autonomy of decision making taken from them. which may be incentive to avoid DSPs.

Gutrender
19 June 2002, 07:59 AM
A problem with DS points for non force users just multiplies all the tough judgement calls GMs have to make for Force Users. I would suggest that characters that get out of line should be put at risk for getting the feat "Infamy". For every few nasty things they do make a difficulty 20 + reputation bonus to see if they get Infamy. For those that want the nasty rep its an incentive and for those who want to be goodie goodies it is a restraint.

Here are just a couple scenarios showing why it would be a pain for non-force users to get dark side points. A non-force sensitive rebel operative is given the mission to assasinate an ISB interrogator.

Scenario 1. Manages to place a bomb in his speeder. It goes off and kills him. Does he get a dark side point? If the blast causes the land speeder to veer of the road and kill some innocent bystanders does he get a dark side point?

Scenario 2. Sneaks past his electronic security precautions and into his home. Gives him a killing blow as he lays sleeping. Does he get a dark side point because enemy is helpless? Why? Killing him this way insures that no innocents die and has greater risk to self, it is less cowardly.

ALFRED_THE_EWOK
19 June 2002, 11:34 AM
This seems to be a d20 discussion, and I won't pretend to know anything abut that, but in d6 you woulnd't recieve DSP's for killing unarmed people, unless you used a force point to do so.

Korris
19 June 2002, 03:09 PM
I would say that non Force sensitive characters who would other wise be considered Tainted or Darkside have some serious problems as much as Force Sensitives.
Any Reputation check may have negative effects.
The character may not be liked, it may just show in his demeanour. For example opposing Sense Motive Checks would say the Guy is Creepy and would probably not give a second thought in killing you. Or even Unfriendly are always hostile, and Indifferent always unfriendly.
For non force sensitive it will mainly be a purely roleplay hindrance.
It may be a good idea that he maybe blamed for crimes he didnt do etc etc, There are more Law enforcement agencies than just Imperials etc, Sector Rangers for instance.

Hope that helps

Wade Trenor
19 June 2002, 03:33 PM
Using the original d20 rulebook (sorry d6ers), but if you have a number of Dark Side points greater then your Reputation, should you make a successful reputation check, you are considered infamous instead of famous.

Perhaps if you don't want them becoming evil, suggest that the other heroes are becoming suspicious of that player's motives, and s/he better tone it down. Otherwise, you could have the player use some Force Points to remove some of the Dark Side Points s/he's accumulated.

Grimace
22 June 2002, 10:12 AM
In general, guys, let's please try to keep system specific things out. I know that sometimes it's hard, but there's been a lot of "sorry, this is system specific" in this particular thread.

As far as the DSPs for the non-force user, I would say that once the PC reaches a certain level, he becomes evil and becomes yours to run. If you're not running a game that is slanted towards the evil side, you'll want your players trying to play good guys. Good guys don't go around killing unconcious, helpless people...whether it would be helpful or not, whether they people are enemies or not. Good guys have standards to live up to.

Dashdar, you ask if those DSPs are good calls or not... in my opinion, I would have either cringed the first time, or issued a "getting closer to a DSP" warning to the player. The second time (depending on what I'd done the first time) I would either issue a warning or slap a DSP on the character. Force sensative or not, doing evil is doing evil. Whatever you do, though, don't waffle on your judgement. If you awarded a DSP each time, don't retract any. If you decide that your actions were too harsh, if a future situation occurs, feel free to alter how you handle it. I personally feel that Gamemaster consistency is important. Just don't let a player (or PC, if the player is actually playing in character and not just acting rash) run roughshod on your game if you're trying to run a good guy game. Sometimes one PC doing everything "wrong" can ruin the way a game is supposed to come out. If you don't want an evil character in your game, take the character away if it becomes too evil (ie. too many DSPs). If anything, it'll wake your player up to the fact that it's not just Jedi people that can decide "this group is a bunch of pansies. I don't want to hang around here!" and take off for more evil doings in richer areas. Plus, doing this always allows for you to bring back the former PC and use them as an enemy! 8o :D

Dashdar
22 June 2002, 05:49 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. I had not intended an taking DSP back. I am still new at being a GM (I just finished my first Campaign, and it went well) so I was just trying to get info from others.

Sorry the thread became so system specific, that was not my intention. SO w/ this last post I will again thank all of you for your help and declair this problem solved.

Rouge8
22 June 2002, 06:53 PM
DSp definitly. I gave a player a DSP for killing a knocked out stormie. An unconscious guy gets shot in the head :shudder:

Darth_Muppet
25 June 2002, 03:29 PM
I'd say you were definately right to award the DSP's. As has already been said, consistency is a key thing here, so maybe a warning would have been better in the first case - but not necessarily. In my opinion, killing clearly helpless people - whether they're evil or not - is an evil action in itself. Surely the "good" thing to do would be to try to redeem the person?

I also agree that DSP's should affect non-force users, but in a lesser way. The force "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together", but only those sensitive to it can actually manipulate it in a controlled way. The Dark Side may manifest itself in non-attuned characters in a more uncontrolled evil. They feel powerful when they commit acts of evil, but they cannot actually harness the true power of the Dark Side for themselves. That's my suggestion :)