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Zanus
22 June 2002, 12:20 AM
A frnd and I where talking earlier today about my theory that Stormtroopers might actually be clones. Before you go off and say "They couldn't make that many clones" consider this. You only ever see Stormtroopers around major projects (the Death Stars) and around VAder and the Emperor (more Vader, but only cause of his amount of screen time). It is entirely possible that there aren't that many more Stormtroopers beyond those shown.

Now mind you, I am NOT counting the EU into this. according to many EU sources, Stormtroopers where the only troops the empire had, and that just ain't right.

Also, look at the battle of Endor (planetside). There where far more Navel and Army troopers then there where Stormtroopers. My frnd would find it believable that if ONLY stormtroopers (and relevent subtypes) where clones, then it is possible. Think about it, the cloners didn't just stop with that first batch, they kept making new batches each year (or even twice a year, or more). twenty years between Ep III and Ep IV? Think of how many stormtroopers could be made! Yes, losses will have their toll, but that would be enough to establish them as a force to be feared in the galaxy and make the SEEM common.

As far as Tatooine goes, I don't htink it was an actual Imperial controlled world, those troops had been sent there to find the droids and acted as a garrison until their job was done. Vader still had his hands in that affair. Don't quote movie novels at me either, I see those as EU sense from what I have seen they are another authors interpretation on some levels, and Lucas might not have given said author all the relevent info for his own reasons (or changed it later).

Yeah, it takes ten years to make a clone by Ep II. But isn't it possible that after continual use of the technology you would find better ways of doing in? maybe shorten the time it takes to eight years? (I consider that a good jump for such a technology) Plus maybe the Stormtroopers where not as well trained as the Clonetroopers where (hard to believe sense the clonetroopers just charged in mass. Stormtroopers acutally seemed capable of combat maneuvers and tactics)

Anyway, this was something we discussed that I thought I would throw at you guys and see how well it stuck. Thoughts?

BrianDavion
22 June 2002, 06:42 AM
when dealing with this, approuch it from the "what would an idoit with little knowladge about SW think"

the answer is stormtroopers are the same thing as clone troopers

Nova Spice
22 June 2002, 06:54 AM
Everytime someone makes this argument, I think back to when Han and Luke tricked the stormies in the Falcon and disguised themselves in stormtrooper armor. Wouldn't they have noticed that the two troopers looked EXACTLY alike? Then I think well, maybe stormtroopers being clones was common knowledge? But then the realization that all records of that time frame were altered, erased, or falsified. I also read a report at www.theforce.net where Rick McCallum was asked the question about clonetroopers and their change to stormtoopers and he said "You will find out in Episode III how stormtroopers come into the picture." That right there tells me that clonetroopers and stormtroopers are not the same. I wish I could place a link for the exact article, but it was around a month ago and I haven't been able to locate it. ;)

BrianDavion
22 June 2002, 07:38 AM
that or stormtrooper armor is just a new grade of clonetrooper armor.

as for han and luke noticing that they all looked alike maybe they did.. and thought nothing of it.. this isn't star trek where they notice something odd and immedatly call a staff meeting:)

FlipDog 2000
22 June 2002, 08:58 AM
Some people think that because the voices are almost all the same...the reason for this, a processor in the helmet that makes all stormies sound the same.

Zanus
22 June 2002, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
when dealing with this, approuch it from the "what would an idoit with little knowladge about SW think"

the answer is stormtroopers are the same thing as clone troopers

If I didn't know better, I would think you where trying to insult me. Might be good idea to think about your wording in the future.


Originally posted by Nova Spice You will find out in Episode III how stormtroopers come into the picture." That right there tells me that clonetroopers and stormtroopers are not the same.

I disagree. I think this is ment to be as generalized a comment as possible, that way the issue will remain questionable until EpIII comes out. Lucas has been pretty good about keeping his secrets and throwing people off coarse. Unitl EpII everyone (that I know of) thought the clones where against the Republic.


Originally posted by FlipDog 2000 Some people think that because the voices are almost all the same...the reason for this, a processor in the helmet that makes all stormies sound the same.

Never occured to me. I was going more off other things. Operating numbers (modern Army only has soldiers, or would be soldiers, use numbers for inprocessing of recruits, after that its all names), always wearing helmets (you ever see a stormie take his helmet off?), Lucas doing his best to line the extras in stormie armor up in a way so you don't notice their varying heights. There where a few other things, however they escape me now in my hungered daze. And yes, I know these are all small things, there are probably just as many indications in the movies to otherwise. *shrug* We honestly will not know for sure until EpIII. I just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on the matter.

Grimace
22 June 2002, 09:33 AM
Personally, I always say do what's best for you. If you're playing the game, and you are the GM and you feel that stormtroopers should be clones...make them clones! If you are of the mind that the clone wars are over, and just because soldiers are wearing matching armor doesn't mean they're identical...don't make them clones! It's that simple.

Currently I think there are more people that believe that stormtroopers are NOT clones than those that think they are. It's not so much a matter of idiocy (and people *should* be careful how they word things) rather than of perception. A lot of things...slightly different size levels, slightly different voices, common chatter in the Death Star, and just good old fashioned "gut feeling" seem to indicate to me that the stormtroopers are not clones. I personally find it funny that so many people think that, just because the uniforms look identical, those guys have to be identical on the inside too. I wonder if our current armies started wearing masks all of the time, we wouldn't have wild rumors going around about cloning.

It's only natural to attach some sort of strange or abnormal label to someone or something that you don't have full knowledge of. Sometimes the answer is just so obvious that most people don't want to see it. Could stormtroopers be normal human beings, trained exceptionally well or even brain-washed, and then put into matching armor? Yes. Could they be clones? Yes.

Basically, until...and IF...we get a definite answer, it's all speculation and no one person's opinion has greater weight than another. I say they aren't. That, however, is just my opinion.

ALFRED_THE_EWOK
22 June 2002, 11:15 AM
Here's my theory, you are free to drool over it's greatness, though it has no basis in reality:

During the middle of the clone wars, Palpy stops making clone soldiers, then he says, "Oh well, looks like we''ll have to draft!" After a while (war drags on), people say, "Boo! Hiss! We don't like drafting!" Then Palpatine says, "Don't look at me, the Jedi started this war!" People say, "We don't like the Jedi!" Palp says, "Me neither!!"

The Admiral
23 June 2002, 09:07 AM
For what it's worth, unless we actually have something tremendously unusual pop up in E3, I say, this isn't a convoluted sci-fi plot, in Star Wars, what you see is pretty much what you get. Clonetroopers and Stormtroopers are the same guys, they just have different hats.

Talonne Hauk
23 June 2002, 05:39 PM
I don't know. I think it would add another layer of evil to Palpatine to just eliminate his clonetroopers and start off in another direction with stormtroopers. Storywise, Lucas might want to do something like that.

BrianDavion
23 June 2002, 08:12 PM
and I suppose darth sidous isn't really Palpatine?:)

this exact same type of conversation came up regarding sidious and palpatine. admiral I think hit it bang on, what we see is going to be what we get. GL isn't going to be ultra sneaky.. he never was very sneaky in the classic trilogy (well barring the "I am your father" bit and if the prequal trilogy had been out we would have KNOW that)

Jett Darkstar
27 June 2002, 03:29 PM
Well, my thought on the matter is this: I'm not sure if stormtroopers are clones are not. But, if they are: who says they're clones of the same humans?? If you listen in RotJ, the stormtroopers' voices do sound different than they did in ANH.

So here's my thought, assuming stormtroopers are clones: Palpatine keeps an eye out for standard Imperial soldiers who show unswerving loyalty and excellence in different areas of combat. As a reward for such service, the Emperor orders a DNA sample taken from the Imperial soldier in particular, and clones are produced from that sample. The Emperor could have millions of cloned stormies based on maybe a handful of actual soldiers.

For example, if a loyal soldier displays skills at stealthy raids and an appetite for destruction, then Palpy takes a sample and BOOM!: 20,000 new Storm Commandos based off that one soldier. If said soldier was extremely adept at space combat in Zero-G, the clones will be spacetroopers. And so on and so forth.....after all, what greater reward for loyal service could a loyal son of the Empire gain than to know that your Emperor is having more soldiers just like you made??

The Admiral
27 June 2002, 03:53 PM
"Don't worry son, this won't hurt much. Mind you, you're a big soldier boy ain't ya, so you wouldn't care if it did, eh?"
"Uh, I guess not."
"They told ya what you're gonna be then?"
"Uh, no?"
"Twenty thousand elite hygiene experts. Not bad eh?"
"Oh. I suppose not."
"Great honour, they say."
"Yeah, they said that to me too."
"You must be really something with a mop."
"They don't call me 'Eat your dinner off the deck Harry for nothing."
"They call you that?"
"No, mostly they call me 'bog boy'."
"Ah well. Amazing, isn't it? They can turn point four mililitres of your blood into a brand new soldier."
"Yeah. Hang on, how many clones did you say?"
"Twenty thousand."
"Er, wait a minute, that's, er, how much blood is that, then, exactly?"
"Eight litres, in total."
"And, er, how long is that going to take?"
"About three minutes."
"But, er, that's pretty much all the blood I've got!"
"Yep."
"But, er, no, wait a minute, how am I supossed to live without any blood?!"
"Well, sir, I don't think it's very long."
"I've changed my mind! lemme out of this chair! Don't press that button!"
(SCHLURPPPPPPP)
"Why is there never a decent hygiene expert around when you need one, eh?"

hisham
28 June 2002, 11:49 PM
according to many EU sources, Stormtroopers where the only troops the empire had, and that just ain't right.

Actually according to a lot of the EU sources stormies are much less in numbers than the Imp Naval & Army troopers. Apparently, they are the ellite of the military. The sight of stormie whites will (theoretically) induce a quick and necessary underwear change.

Theoretically because in my gaming group a squad of stormtroopers is what's fondly known as a "shooting gallery". :D

But if they're clones, they're no longer Jango clones.

Zanus
29 June 2002, 02:30 PM
I know that, that is why I said "That just aint right." I wasn't trying to say that all the EU sources said that. just about all the good EU authors (Zahn, Stockpole, Anderson) used Army and Navy troopers quit well. A few of the not so good authors and quit a few comic books I have read have stormies acting like normal army and navy troopers. Granted, most of that was during the NR era, where imperial warlords where trying to keep fear in the hearts of their subjects and simply put army and navy troopers in stormy armor, a few have had stormies as I previously stated back during the Empire/rebellion era. I think many GM's fall into this trap too, where they use Stormies as a fill in bad guy, instantly seen as being the thing to shoot at. heck, a game I was recently in did just that. He had stormies all over Corellia, when naval troops would have been more appropriate, and had crimson guard guarding a lowly imperial admiral, when stormies would have been more appropriate. It took everything I had to keep from screaming, sense I knew that hte GM was trying to give the feel that it would be quit pointless to attack the admiral (wouldnt' get near him and end up dead). Anyway, thanks for pointing that out so I could clarify.

Rendvermin
30 June 2002, 08:06 PM
Stormtroopers aren't clones. The point about Han and Luke on the Falcon is a valid point. Also, the Zahn books say that clones go nuts after a while because they are anomalies in the Force, and since those have been canonized, they're true.

Of course, Cowboy George seems to like changing canon, so this may get thrown completely out the window.

ALFRED_THE_EWOK
30 June 2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Rendvermin
Also, the Zahn books say that clones go nuts after a while because they are anomalies in the Force, and since those have been canonized, they're true.

??????

Zanus
30 June 2002, 09:43 PM
I agree with Alfred when I say: Huh?

I thought if something was made canon, it wasn't part of Lucas's Star Wars. Mind you, I have only recently started to learn all this new slang, so I say this more to get the proper definition for myself.

The clones went nuts because they where cranked out to fast. In a way, yeah, this makes them anomalies in the force, sense the force wouldn't have time to adjust to their life patterns. But that doesn't mean Stormtroopers aren't clones. And what part of the "Han and Luke in the falcon" is a valid point? there where two views on it that I see here.

sorry if it seems like I am coming across rashly here, but I have been trying to avoid just saying "Your all wrong" without any reasons (despite how humoress I think it might be to see everyones reactions). you have more or less done just that, and I just want to hear your reasoning. I am willing to bet I am not entirely alone in this either. As I have stated, and others have stated, there is no way we will no for absolute certanty until EpIII, assuming they even try to explain it (which is likely considering Nova Spices previous post with quote from Lucas) and, thanks to this great nation of ours (well, I assume most of ours, I know alot of you are not US citizens) we have the right to hold different oppinions and express them as we see fit, with obvious restraint of coarse :)

The Admiral
1 July 2002, 01:36 AM
The Zahn trilogy is not canon, has never been canon, and will never be canon. Canon consists of eleven very specific sources. They are official, and like a great deal of the Expanded Universe, are getting stomped on by GL.

reliant
10 July 2002, 11:44 AM
Hmm... Why does the EU get bashed so often? What did it ever do to deserve such torment? :p

Anyway, here's my two creds on the stormie/clone deal. Maybe the original stormies were clones (left overs from the clone army), but I think the later ones are just regular people. Well maybe not "regular" but definately not clones.

I think the luke/han point is good. Don't you think that the imperials might have noticed that Luke was definately not a storm trooper considering his difference in size from the others? ("Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?") And I think that they would have noticed if the two stormies looked exactly the same when they pulled them out of their armor.

Although it doesn't do much to dispell the clone/stormie arguement, what about those two stormies chatting on the death star in ANH? If they were clones (like the ones in episode II) would they be chatting like that? I doubt it. Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

Regardless I don't think it's anything to get upset about. All will probably be revealed in episode III...

Zanus
10 July 2002, 06:09 PM
I don't think I was really bashing the EU. I just don't like it when people think that the novels and comics will affect Lucas's movies. Lucas has purposely made the EU go in a direction to keep from giving away any spoilers, thus you can't expect it to matter a whole lot. Don't get me wrong, there are alot of great books and stories in the EU, and alot of it is great RPing material. However in the end, for RPing, one has to chose to follow the movies or the EU, or create their own time line (personally I am doing a mixed movie/EU deal where I figure out what would happen to EU events based on the new information and the things that would seem possible/impossible)

As far as the Luke/Han thing goes. why would the comment on something that seemed normal to them (and for that matter would give away a plot line for the prequels)? the creation of the clone army had alot of media coverage (I would assume as such considering that is a large allotment of republic assets, and they had these white clad soldiers come out of no where on Corouscant). If palpy continued clone prodcution, then it would be easy to see that everyone would pretty much know that stormies are clones. granted, some types of stormies, like the commandos and maybe the scouts, would need more flexability so you would recruit dedicated humans who you promptly brainwash. As for the height, well, luke stepping off the ship and tapping his head (I think it was luke that did that, can't remember for sure) was at a distance with no other stormie around for comparison. Walking through the deathstar, why didn't anyone notice? you seen one stormie, you seen them all. Especially if they are dragging an angry looking wookie with them. Chewie would have brought the attention on himself, not Luke and Han. kinda a twisted hiding in the open type thing. plus most of the people they where passing proly had more pressing business to tend to then to worry about a shorter stormie (that wouldn't not have been noticed right away anyway, again seen one seen them all.)

Anyway, this can be argued tirelessly either way. We won't know for sure until EpIII.

Jett Darkstar
13 July 2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by reliant
*snip* I think the luke/han point is good. Don't you think that the imperials might have noticed that Luke was definately not a storm trooper considering his difference in size from the others? ("Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?") And I think that they would have noticed if the two stormies looked exactly the same when they pulled them out of their armor. *snip

Maybe those two particular stormies were from different genetic stock. See my previous post. As for spotting Luke right away, if I was an Imperial and used to seeing white-armored stormtroopers all the time, would I notice if one stormie was a little shorter than usual? I probably wouldn't; stormies probably tend to fall into the background if you see them all the time.


Although it doesn't do much to dispell the clone/stormie arguement, what about those two stormies chatting on the death star in ANH? If they were clones (like the ones in episode II) would they be chatting like that? I doubt it. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. *snip*

Why not? :? After all, clones are humans, not robots. I don't see why two clone stormtroopers couldn't "shoot the bull" ( or should that be "shoot the bantha"?? ) about whatever new weapon just came out or whatever it was they were talking about. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue; I'm just offering a different perspective. :)

Tony J Case, Super Genius
6 August 2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Rendvermin
Of course, Cowboy George seems to like changing canon, so this may get thrown completely out the window.

Not true. A million years ago, there were this series of lucas film based magazines that folded out into a poster, and had stories and cool essays about this and that. It was the visual dictionary of the 70's - but for only a buck.

One of them detailed the weapons of the Empire, and had a long passage about Stormtroopers. It very clearly said that they were clones from the get-go. It was the EU that got it wrong, not the other way around.

Christo
6 August 2002, 03:27 PM
My personal opinion (based on no evidence whatsoever) is that stormtroopers are made up of both clones and non-clones. Perhaps leftover clones that survived the war (although they'd be a bit old, wouldn't they?), others that were cloned after, and also many non-clones who were drafted later.

Somewhat off-topic, a question for <b>Admiral</b>: what are the eleven sources of canon? I can only think of six (the movies themselves). Apologies if this shows my ignorance.

The Admiral
6 August 2002, 03:39 PM
01 Star Wars: Episode 1 (Movie)
02 Star Wars: Episode 2 (Movie)
03 Star Wars: Episode 4 (Movie)
04 Star Wars: Episode 5 (Movie)
05 Star Wars: Episode 6 (Movie)
06 Star Wars: Episode 4 (Novel by George Lucas)
07 Star Wars: Episode 5 (Novel by George Lucas)
08 Star Wars: Episode 6 (Novel by George Lucas)
09 Star Wars: Episode 4 (Radio Adaptation)
10 Star Wars: Episode 5 (Radio Adaptation)
11 Star Wars: Episode 6 (Radio Adaptation)

If it's in those, it's Canon. Anywhere else, it's Official, or Apocrypha.

malphas13
15 August 2002, 02:23 PM
This has some spoilers I belive, just a warning.

I'm pretty sure Stormtroopers are clone troopers, most of the evidence points in that direction. And the shortest time to make a stable working clone is 15-20 days. Though this was only done with Grand Admiral Thrawn's method... Clone maddness happens when you try and grow the clone to fast in a Spaarti cloning cylinder. The clone troopers in EP 2 likely wouldn't suffer from this as they were more or less "grown" naturally over 10 years...

Zanus
16 August 2002, 10:57 AM
And the shortest time to make a stable working clone is 15-20 days. Though this was only done with Grand Admiral Thrawn's method... Clone maddness happens when you try and grow the clone to fast in a Spaarti cloning cylinder.

Ah, but don't forget that that is EU. Lucas is not bound by this, and this has little proper bearing on the movies and the theory I originally set forth. I am surprised to find out, from Admiral and someone on another thread, that Lucas actually said that Stormies are clones. I will have to slap that in my friends faces to see how they react. :D

Steven Snyder
20 August 2002, 09:39 AM
I have been thinking about this subject...

Perhaps I am wrong but...

I don't think anyone in the movie actually uses the phrase 'clone trooper', though there is a reference for a 'clone army'.

It seems the phrase 'clone trooper' is used by the audience only, not used by the actual characters themselves. It is entirely possible that the Chancellor may name them StormTroopers in the near future.

Zanus
20 August 2002, 02:42 PM
Thats a good point. I do recall that they kept refering to the Clone army, but never refering to the individual clones as clone troopers. then again, it is one of those things that proly isn't easily worked into a normal conversation, particularly when refering to them in the plural, you will be more likely to refer to the army itself or the clones in some generalized term. I know I know, my own point can be worked against me, but who is to say anyone has even thought of the Clone Trooper term in the story yet?

Marusame
22 August 2002, 02:47 PM
about people not wanting to take EU into account.

One: I remember reading somewhere that if the books have the infinity logo or are part of "Tales" then they don't count. Otherwise they've passed Georgies inspection.

Two: In the re-release of Splinter of the Minds Eye, Georgie writes in the forward that he knows the need for more authors because he couldn't hope to tell all the stories. In my opinion this proves that he accepts EU.

Three: He even bloody took the name Coruscant. Timmy Zahn made that name up for the Thrawn trilogy. If that doesn't prove that George accepts the stories from EU, I don't know what does.


and Four: The EU is not that difficult to work in. So what if some facts are stated wrong? Not everyone in the universe is a scholar. Stuff that is mentioned about the past in the EU I take as opinion, whereas George is showing us what 'really' happend. You have to figure that Palpy would sow a lot of disinformation. Also all in all it was prolly a very confusing time period.

Durian Keldrona
22 August 2002, 03:32 PM
Where did you get the Idea that he took the name from Zahn?

Marusame
22 August 2002, 03:42 PM
because dark force rising came out before the special edition star wars movies and coruscant isn't mentioned before then. That and I was told it long ago.

Zanus
22 August 2002, 05:59 PM
I am not disputing that EU has SOME effect on GL's concept, but that does not mean all or even most of EU has that effect.

I know full well that just about everything SW related goes GL's way at some point, but that doesn't mean it is definetlly part of his overall view. The way I see it GL inspects the stuff to make sure it is still in the spirit of SW and that it doesn't give away anything he wants to keep secret for awhile, to be later shown in the movies. This also means that certain things between cannon and EU simply are not going to match up, and are not as easily integrated.

As previously noted, GL has gone on record saying that stormies are clones. yeah, it was some time ago obviously since no one remembers, but I think it is still pertinent. This disrupts EU in some ways, but it can be reworked by GM's and readers.

However the fact that the Republic did not seem to be set up to handle a war seriously disrupts the Timothy Zahn series, as there would be no Katana fleet in that case. I am sure I already went over this earlier in this thread or another thread. Bare in mind before we get into another argument about this, the katana fleet was all slaved into ONE ship. It was not meant to be broken up into task forces and scent where needed. It moved as one entity. Well, it was supposed to, and did, unfortunetly not in a desired way :P Anyway, where is Thrawn gonna get his ships for his campaign if the katana fleet never existed? such a little detail could have much longer effects over the EU. A number of battles either would not have happened, or wouldn't happen to far later, and Thrawn might have lived longer for it, maybe even learning of the treachery of the Noghri before they can kill him.

I have to wonder though, how could Children of the Jedi, Crystal Star, and the New Rebellion have gotten passed GL? Those where some of the worst SW books ever and yet he approves them? hmmm...

Marusame
23 August 2002, 12:18 PM
I will prolly be killed for this, but I liked Children of the Jedi for one reason. Callista is one of my favorite characters.

reliant
26 August 2002, 04:28 AM
Just because at one time Lucas said that stormtroopers were all clones doesn't necesarily make it still true.

Lucas has gone back on what he's said before. Example? In the intro of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" by GL himself, he says that Star Wars was supposed to be three trilogies. He wrote that intro right after ANH was released. After Episode I someone asked him in an interview about a third trilogy and he said something along the lines of "someone mentioned a third trilogy once, but it was always just a rumor". That's not a direct quote, but that's close to what he said.

Sorry about going so far of target, but I think the only way we'll see if the stormies are clones is to wait for Episode III.

Zanus
26 August 2002, 08:44 AM
I have heard for a long time that there where supposed to be three trilogies (A trilogy of trilogies? hmm) and I have also heard that Lucas has realized that he simply does not have enough life left in him to do the final trilogy. I know there are a couple threads around here on this.

I understand that Lucas likes playing around with his own fairy tale, and it is fully in his right to do so, however I have yet to see anything significant to say that Stormies are not clones, and have seen many indications, both in RL and in the movies to convince me that they are clones. It is simply how one takes the given evidence and what they derive from it. It is a free country (assuming you are in the US) and are entitled to your opinion. I started this thread to get thoughts on the matter. Sorry if I made it seem like I was trying to ram my view down anyones throuts.

reliant
29 August 2002, 05:33 AM
I stumbled across something interesting the other day. I found an old review of Star Wars which mentioned stormies AS CLONES. Here's a quote:


In May of 1977, George Lucas released one of the most fascinating, wonderful motion pictures ever made. In a midst of ordinary films about regular people, Star Wars took people to an old, remote world where machinery is sentient, creatures of the galaxy convene in bars, monstrous space stations blow up entire planets, and cloned men in white armor carry out the bidding of a power hungry empire...

So where'd he get this idea? Some kind of inside info? Maybe I was wrong and the stormies are all clones... I do have to admit that the arguement against them being clones is kind of weak. :rolleyes: Hey, I can admit when I'm wrong (although it doesn't happen often).

Oh well... Only time will tell for sure.

Valoy_Muniz
29 August 2002, 06:55 AM
I think wat it was that they started out all as clones when he took power but he also add people in with time. By the time of RTOTJ I think it is like 75% real and 25% clone.

Zanus
29 August 2002, 09:37 AM
reliant one of the best traits a person can have is the ability to admit they are wrong. Pride tends to keep people from admitting to, or noticing even the smallest msitake. Heck, it was my pride that got me in so much trouble in the army :(

Valoy_Muniz I could see that as a possibility. I have to admit I can't see how one planet would be enough to produce tons of Stormies (and possibly other types of clones), so bringing in normals and brain washing them till they are like the clones would be a practicul method.

I am still wondering what would happen to the clone factories after the death of the Emperor. If stormies are clones, then how would that affect the SW timeline after RotJ? I am thinking maybe for the last trilogy Lucas was gonna pull a Dark Empire and have the Emperor return, or maybe a second clone wars, following a backstory more akin to how the EU always portrayed the original clone wars (best discribed in the Thrawn trilogy). Or better yet, a combination of the EU discription of the Clone wars and the Thrawn Trilogy! Thrawn comes in with a butt load of Chiss produced ships, and starts cranking out clones at a faster then proper rate, thus driving the clones insane, but Thrawn, being who he is, is still able to put the clones where he sees fit, causing endless trouble for the Alliance!

I need to stop thinking so much :rolleyes:

OrderSponge
1 September 2002, 09:41 PM
First of all, I really wouldn't count thing that GL said 25 years ago as anything close to canon.

I tend to believe in as orderly a universe as possible. In other words, EU is true unless very, VERY, specifically disproven by a canon source. You might be surprised how much can be worked out. I like to follow the offical and canonized universe closely, it makes it feel more 'star warsy'.

I think that we need to back up and ask the most basic of questions: why? Why would the Emperor use cloned troops? They are certainly not cheaper, at least, not in proportion to their benefits. Neither does the Emperor lack the recruiting base, having access to the young men of thousands of (human) systems. They seem to slightly more able, overall, than 'regular' troops, but also tend to be less creative. I mean, clones of one person, exposed to basically the same life, would tend to think along similar lines, right? Indeed, since they basically all would have the same, training-centric life, nothing that they feel they would need to protect, they would be overall less able than than regular troops since they would not feel they need to fight on a gut level.

So what's the point? I certainly would not use cloned troops. To predictable, and as anyone who has ever fought before knows, predictability is dangerous.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
5 September 2002, 11:58 PM
The why is easy - it's all about the power trip.

See, Palpatine can (and does) create and destroy life at a his most fleeting whim. An entire disposable army - docile and obedient - to serve as his playthings. If he commands them to walk off a cliff, then they willingly do so, and love him while they are doing it.

For a control freak like Palpatine, there can be no finer sensation.

As for the problem of tactical predictability, consider this. The Empire dominates in space combat not because of the superiority of the TIE fighter, but because they can put out so many units on the field of battle. Same thing here - who cares if their tactics consist of marching into battle in one straight line. Sure, the enemy can kill 25 - who cares when there are 500 more units right behind ready to deploy.

After a while, the target will fall and the Empire will win.

Me - I'm glad to see the stormtrooper = clones mindset come back again. It always bugged me when KJA introduced the stormtrooper academy. It gave a name and a face to the unstoppable force of nature that is the Empire's best shocktroop.

Zanus
6 September 2002, 09:05 AM
good points on both sides, Tony and OrderSponge. A couple other things to consider though (this is leaning towards supporting Tony, but should not be taken as a flame or put down)

I can understand the creativeness part of it, but I believe with adequate enough training and proper leadership (however hard the latter is to come by) 'machine minded' people can still fight effectively against a force of equal strength. But then, the Empire is known for not having as many good leaders, so they have the next best thing, as Tony mentioned. massive forces! I studied World War II alot when I was younger, and I always found the Russain tactics interesting. They would throw (sometimes literally) hundreds to thousands of half trained, half disaplined troops at the German lines, and achieved victory after victory (yes, after waves of defeats. New tanks and some greater care in training and treatment helped). Yeah, Russia lost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of their populace (maybe millions, I forgot the last estimate) but they got the job done. Now think what those sort of tactics would accomplish with a force of well trained, well disciplined soldiers that all think alike and more or less know how the other is going to react.

Also remember that the Stormtroopers are not the Empires only troop source, just the most noticable in the movies. There are still Army Troopers and Naval Troopers (both seen in RotJ, and I think Naval troopers can be seen before that in ANH sp ed). Consider what would happen with Army troopers with their heavy equipment and armor worked alongside Storm troopers in a proper fight? (RotJ had something more akin to large scale guerilla combat, as every one was running everywhere.) The stormies could be used as a stopping block for an oppenent to slam into and get chewed up, with Army heavies in support, while lighter Army units outmaneuver the opponent.

In the right hands and right support, or even half way knowledgeable rights, stormies are still very dangerous, even if they are not all that imaginitive.

Gordirro
16 September 2002, 10:11 AM
Zanus

According to the new Star Wars Cargame, the stormtroopers are clones

There's a card in the new expansion 'A New Hope' (coming November) that's called Elite Stormtrooper Squad - Imperial Clone Stormtrooper. The photo is from the scene of the Tantive IV invasion. Here is the linkhttp://www.thisisgood.com/starwars/elitestormtroopersquad.jpg

And since every card is aproved by Lucasfilm, I believe it's the real deal: stormtroopers are clones.

The card created a fuzz in the cardgame's forum as a matter of fact. It was considered a bad spoiler for Episode III.

Best,

André Gordirro
Rio de Janeiro, BRAZIL

Zanus
16 September 2002, 09:19 PM
Cool, thanks for that Gordirro.

I do have to say one thing though, and this is simply so I don't sound like a hypocrit. Just about everything SW related comes across Lucas's desk, doesn't mean it is cannon. Having said that, I think this inclusion in the cards is a good sign for my theory may turn to fact (especially when added to other evidence) but it could still easily be argued that it won't happen, and may still happen that way (er, that stormies won't be classified as clones, that is). Lucas could do just about anything he wants. Heck, Stormies may end up being Ewoks with leg and arm extensions.

Anyway, I don't personally see this as a spoiler since Lucas has already gone on record stating that stormies are clones (which, again, he can easily change his mind on if he wanted too).

Thanks again, Gordirro, that is a cool bit of trivia! ;)

OrderSponge
23 September 2002, 11:05 PM
the primary reason I am against stormtroopers as clones is that it blasts so much of the EU out of the water. Carida, anyone? Kyle Katarn? Some people might argue that this is a good thing, but I think that it would damage the 'infrastructure' of the star wars universe.

Or maybe not. Maybe it will be handled well. Actually, I kind of doubt that it will be handled in EpIII. I just can't seem to think of a way that is would be included in the movie.

Zanus
24 September 2002, 11:02 PM
I think there would be plenty of ways of having it mentioned in EpIII. That doesn't mean it has to be a huge load proclimation, or have to have some big scene indicating as much, could simply be a passing line to the effect of "The emperors new cloned Storm Troopers" or something. Or, like you said, he could just leave it alone and let people like us continue to debat about it.

As for it affecting the EU, there are already a number of things that have been blown out. Katana fleet anyone? Why would the Republic have around 200 warships all slaved together and meant to move as one when they haven't had a war in centuries? The Katana fleet came out supposedly shortly before the break out of the Clone war, so I know it isn't that old.

Speaking of the Clone War, Much of the EU was writen under the impression that the Clones referred to where attacking the Republic, not fighting for them. It is a minor point, but if the Authors had known better, they may have written certain things and events differently. I am sure there are a number of other "non-cannon" items that have been blown away that I am missing.

Basically, the EU can be looked at two ways now. Either as a side galaxy with its own tale that just happens to have some coincidences, or you can try to figure out how the events in the movies would effect the EU, and maybe even come up with a drastically different story line. Thrawn being around for quite a few more years harrassing the NR (without the Katana fleet) while building a fleet and keep the NR fleet stretched. Since the last three episodes may or may not be made, you could have the Reborn Emperor (Dark Empire series) come back after Thrawn takes back Coroscant, or you can not have the Emperor come back and a different batch of heroes, with the 'known' heroes supporting in some way, save the day. Maybe drop some of the less liked stories all together. Basically comes down to how you want to run the game, what you think would change, and how big a loop you want to throw your players in :D

OrderSponge
25 September 2002, 09:03 PM
I assume that when you say 'the last three episodes' you mean VII, VIII, and IX? From hearing GL speak, I think that he is planning to stop Star Wars at three movies. I wasn't sure what you meant by that.

As for the Katana fleet, it was mentioned that it was mostly a PR effort. Maybe it was one of the only fleets that the Republic had, and it was supposed the be the 'ultimate power' or some such. You know how politicians can be. Anyway, suppose that Palpatine was the one who infected them with that hive virus to get rid of them, or even better, to control them. The latter obviously didn't work out, it is still interesting. I could go on, but it doesn't really matter.

I think that a lot will be revealed as far as the clone wars are concerned with EpIII. It might even blow this entire conversation away, who knows.

I tend to try to make EU fit with the prequels as much as possible, and I like to think that I have gotten quite good at it. Don't even get me started on the Geonosis Death Star.

Zanus
25 September 2002, 10:14 PM
By "Last Three Episodes" I did mean Eps VII, VIII, and IX. I apologize for not being more clear on that.

I remember a side conversation that popped up either on this thread or another thread some months ago about the possibility of the Republic having a fleet. It was said that since Palpy was making a "Grand Army", then it could be supposed that there was already some sort of Republic fleet in existance. I had come to the personal conclusion at the time that, yeah the republic would have a fleet simply beacuse they would have to deal with pirates, smugglers and raiders. You don't really need an army to deal with that, and planetary or system patrol forces can only go so far, so having a standing fleet of some size would be almost a necessity, but not on the scale that the Empire later had. You don't need a fleet of 200+ dreadnaughts all moving as one to deal with petty pirates and smugglers. I don't know of any polotician that would have billions of credits dropped into that much of a fighting force just to have them sit there and look pretty, that is what military oversite commities are there for, to keep military spending resonable or politically acceptable, and 200+ billion dollar paper weights is a definet waste.

I also don't think Palpy would be trying to have such a force disappear since it would actually help him in many ways. A virus like the one that got into the katana fleet would be to unpridictable, and not really Palpies style IMHO. He would either have his agents infiltrate the command stucture or have Maul/Tyranus/Vader or someone else go through killing the crew then hijack the fleet (or at least the Katana itself to move the fleet to a secure location and deal with the other crews at Palpies leasure).

Anyway, it is all personal interpritation. Everyone has the right to their own opinions. This thread was just meant for speculation anyway, not to try to cram my opinion or anyone elses opinion down anyones throat. If our ideas don't match, then we can simply agree to disagree, it isn't that important ;)

Durian Keldrona
26 September 2002, 04:51 AM
Not to mention that the "Acadamy" that Luke whines about going to has its roots in the Old Republic... now it would be silly if there is no fleet to train for.

Artorius
29 September 2003, 09:25 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to reply to a year-old thread. Mods please delete this.

Jedi Master Talon
27 October 2003, 07:55 AM
I thought about the same thing but then I remembered that, that can't be possible. The Rebels would have figured that out at some point that they might have been clones and it would have been mentioned at some point in the movies. Though I would say that the stormtoopers are children of clones (at least some of them). The Clonetroopers had to have reproduced at some point in time.

Jim Williams
27 October 2003, 08:19 AM
Now that would result in interesting family dynamics...I never even thought of stormies as clonetrooper children.

BrianDavion
27 October 2003, 01:01 PM
I doubt stormies are clone troopers children, remember clone troopers age twice as fast as we do

Zanus
27 October 2003, 01:58 PM
Why would the rebels 'figure it out' if it was already a known fact throughout the known galaxy? They wouldn't mention it if there was no need to either. There was no point where it was a necessary piece of info. The galaxy knows them as storm troopers, why elaborate any more then that?

As far as their age, ok, so the original force of clone troopers are not around any more, but don't you think their would be more being produced durring and even after the clone wars? Once palpy had control of the senate, and had the wartime power he needed, it would be a simple matter to get the funding from the Republic to buy more troopers ona consistent basis. Once he is Emperor, he can put his wealth wherever he wants, and part of that would go to maintaining the military, thus conitnuous orders of clones.

I know it takes time to grow and train clones, but they showed right in the movie how a flow can be maintained. You have several batches growing all at once, at different stages. One incubating, one in their childhood learning and training, another in mid to late teens finishing their training, equiping, and shipping out.

As far as why no one tried to stop the flow of clones, you honestly think the emperor would let such a valuable world go undefended? First, the world is still not on any public star charts, it was only found by the Jedi, and Palpy seemed to know where it was (which we all know why). The mere fact that no one can find it keeps most of the trouble away. Of coarse, since the Jedi put two and two together, obviously someone else might at some point, so you have a good sized task force and defense stations in orbit to keep any 'investigators' from getting away, and to slow down any attacking forces until reinforcements arrive. By the time of the rebellion, that planet would probably be as heavily defended as Imperial Center. Or Palpy would have several cloning facilities scattered aroundt he galaxy (maybe this is how Carida was actually used). This would also explain Mount Tantis (I think I got that right, the mountain in the thrawn trilogy) and Byss (Dark Empire series).

Dr_Worm
27 October 2003, 02:23 PM
Wow...old thread. I find it interesting though, because I never even questioned Stormies being clones. I always figured that the original stormies were clones, taken from perhaps 100 stock soldiers, and as the empire aged it stopped cloning and started taking recruits. I think Zanus's point is valid: If everyone knew that Stormies were clones, why would they make a comment about it?

BrianDavion
27 October 2003, 03:04 PM
incidenatly Kamino WAS attacked dureing the clone wars.

Zanus
27 October 2003, 07:41 PM
Good to know, BrianDavion. I don't doubt you, but could you tell me the source? I want to take a look at that to see what happened, what survived, and what might possibly happen because of that.


I always figured that the original stormies were clones, taken from perhaps 100 stock soldiers, and as the empire aged it stopped cloning and started taking recruits

Dr_Worm I would actually agree with that. I could see the genetic sample of Jango Fett running out, and them needing fresh samples. I don't have any info on this part, but I am sure reusing samples from clones will degrade each successive 'generation' or batch, so some troopers, probably from other bounty hunters or planetary defense troopers or the senate guard. And as the Emperor dies, the link to the cloning chambers is severed, or the Rebels manage to destory the facilities when the imperial forces are scattered or disorganized. The suriving commanders and warlords give their Army and Naval troopers stormtrooper armor to maintain the illusion of power in their controlled space (I know this much was mentioned in one of the WEG sourcebooks or in a graphic novel series). And of coarse, when Thrawn pops back up, we get the thrawn trilogy as explained (although I still doubt the existance of the Katana fleet, that is a discussion for a different thread)

Heh, sorry for going on a tangent, this just sparked something in me. Plus i had been thinking about this again recently.

BrianDavion
27 October 2003, 09:16 PM
Good to know, BrianDavion. I don't doubt you, but could you tell me the source?

I belive it was in Star Wars: Republic, Issue 50 or so.

I have it in "the clone wars volume 1" a trade paperback of several clone wars comics published by dark horse.

the jedi knew of the attack before hand due to spies in the confederacy. of course the whole attack was a plot by dooku to rid himself fof some over ambitious subordinates

Darthspectre84
1 November 2003, 06:12 AM
Yeah, the commander of the confedracy forces seeing the battle losing decided to destroy the jedi hyperspace rings to prevent the jedi following the retreating Confederate forces.

As for the Katana Fleet argument, before EP II came there was rumour that GL was going to put the Katana Fleet in it but changed his mind.

As for contradictions to the EU well it has happened before like the Boba Fett thing. EU sources said he was an enforcer for a system after he got booted from being a Stormtrooper cause he killed a superior officer or something. Then we find out Boba is a clone of the last Mandalorian. Now that kind of contracdicts the EU, you can fit it in with that as he reached matuirty he joined the empire but got booted then became the enforcer then became a feared bounty hunter. So things contradicted are kind of salvageable.

Lucein Solo
13 November 2003, 10:28 AM
Okay Guys say stormtroopers are clones are only half right, why Only 25% are clones 75% are either humanoid or other races. I'm trooper or I was for a while then I got bored and stole a whole bunch of things including death star plans:D

Zanus
13 November 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Lucein Solo
Okay Guys say stormtroopers are clones are only half right, why Only 25% are clones 75% are either humanoid or other races. I'm trooper or I was for a while then I got bored and stole a whole bunch of things including death star plans:D

???? No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. It almost looks like you threw in your two cents without looking at the posts in the thread. I am not trying to say your oppinion is not worth hearing or less important then anyone elses, but it might help if you actually looked at the other posts first. This was a thread on possibilities and speculation, not character ideas, although some of it could be used for making a character truer to Lucas's intended idea.

Also, one might want to bare in mind that Stormtroopers are the not standard grunts of the Imperial military. they are more of the shocktroops that lead the charge. The IMperial Army makes up the bulk of the ground forces, from what I have seen in source material for Imperial era. Thus you wouldn't need that many stormtroopers, maybe in the tens of thousands, where as the Army would probably have millions if not billions of soldiers scattered in garrisons and occupation forces around the galaxy. We only saw so many stormies in the movies because Vader was always around. He would want to travel with the best soldiers available, not half trained dimwits from some world he has never heard of. I still belive Stormies are totally clones, but are maybe fewer in number then durring the clone wars simply because they where not needed as badly and to save on cost of their creation. But again, everyone is intitled to their own oppinion.

MalakiTyrel
13 November 2003, 06:33 PM
Zanus, that is the way I always saw it as well. Since the model for the Empire was Nazi Germany in WWII, I've always thought of the stormtroopers much like the German SS. They are more like the elite of the Empire rather than grunts.

Liquescent-Sabre
28 November 2003, 11:04 PM
I kind of figured storm troopers are the offspring of the original surviving clone troopers and the emperor had set-up certain planets and "colonies" for their living and future "recruitment" drives. Genetic predisposition for obedience but a second generation providing a more diverse genepool and independent thinking, yet still very brainwashable.

Zanus
29 November 2003, 02:03 PM
I almost agree with this possibility, but when I thought about it, anumber of things came up that made this unlikely in my mind. I have heard many times that the clones live shorter lives. Add to the fact that they are going to be thrown into as many battles as possible. I don't think they will live long enough to 'retire' and they certainly wouldn't have a chance to strike up a relationship with someone before they are to old to 'pass the buck' as it where.

I want to say they are probably neutered too, but that would defeat the whole purpose of making them warriors (you lose alot of agression that way).

I guess I could see the possibility that after so many years they may be 'retired' to train the next generation of clones until their shorter life span gives out. I just don't see them releaseing the clones completely from service though, since they are basically property of the Republic/Empire. As clones they don't get the same rights as other sentient beings. Just being in the military stripes you of some of your freedoms, being property doesn't help much.

Liquescent-Sabre
9 December 2003, 12:09 AM
If I remember correctly the clones only had double the growth rate (for stability reasons) so a clone, where humans lived to be 100 in the Old Republic could still live to be 50 or so.

Going into combat at the ripe age of 20 (wasn't it 10 years of training?) that still leaves survivors with 30 years or so of life. Should be enough time to retire, settle down and raise a family dont you think? Just another form of "service" to the empire, er republic.

Plus being owned by the Republic (and thus later the Empire, or Palpatine as would be the case). I'd plunked down some of those surviving clone members into colonies, ordering them to live there and order them to procreate. Besides aren't the clone wars about 30 years or so before a New hope?

Hmmm, and just enough time to start training those new youngsters, second-gen clone troopers = storm troopers, just about. individual enough thinkers but brainwashable enough to trust as my elite shock troopers for my empire. Once you consider the fact that the surviving clone troopers wouldn't know what to do and could be told exactly what to do by Palpi, the evil genius would I'm sure start preparing for the future (as he already had been, raising a clone armor a decade or two before).

cdtatro
11 December 2003, 09:58 AM
Just wanted to add a point I didn't see in this thread anywhere (sorry if I just missed it).

In the commentary track for Attack of the Clones, Lucas points out the scene where Jango Fett bangs his head on the door of the Slave as he's going in. He says he thought it would be funny to include that as a nod to the Stormtrooper who bangs his head on the door in ANH. I don't know his exact words, but it's something like "since the Stormtroopers are all clones of Jango I thought it would be funny to show where they got that trait from."

That would seem to settle the question pretty definitively.

Chris

Zanus
11 December 2003, 01:53 PM
wow, never noticed either of those scenes you mention, but that is good to know. Thanks for posting that., I will have to look for those scenes next time I am watching either movie.

DarkSoldier
11 December 2003, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Liquescent-Sabre
Besides aren't the clone wars about 30 years or so before a New hope?Ep3 is supposed to take place 20-18 years BSW4, and the Clone Wars take place over the two years between Ep2 and Ep3 (at the shortest).

Darthspectre84
12 December 2003, 06:55 AM
There si the possibility though that in the Jedi Purge, the Jedi see that if Palpatine keeps the clones he might be unstoppable and destroy all materials realting to it leaving the clones to slowly die. Cause i think i red it somewhere that they needed Jangos DNA continiouslly to make some randomness in the clones. Thats why there were no new ARC troopers...just a thought

Zanus
12 December 2003, 12:03 PM
What, they can't clone a clone? The DNA would already be the way you want it, and any mutation could easily be fixed from what they have described.

Dr_Worm
12 December 2003, 12:24 PM
Well I cannot garuntee it is the same kind of thing, but I do know (from folks I have know that have grown certain plants) that clones, over generations, start to loose their viability. The strain becomes tired, in a sense. One other thing, that I covered in Waves of Conflict, is that if the troops are of a single genetic strain, or even 2 or 3, then it would be dead simple to engineer a virus or bacteria that would wipe them out in no time flat, while leaving the general population generally unharmed.

Darthspectre84
13 December 2003, 04:42 AM
Just as the Doctor said...its like making a photocopy over another photocopy. It does not end up as pure as the original. So there might be dulled reactions and Palpatine might have been forced to scrap the project. At best they can keep the clones at a moderate rate, that is unless all genetic material is destroyed.

Darth Fierce
13 December 2003, 08:48 AM
Which brings up a good question...what if the cloning facilities on Kamino are destroyed by the Separatists during the Clone Wars? As we've seen in the EU, it seems that a lot of stormtroopers are actually conscripted soldiers (who could forget the insane stormtrooper commander described in WEG's Hives of Scum and Villiany). And I know it's been brought up all ready, but the only time that Luke seems really disoriented around stormtroopers is during the whole Thrawn threat (indicating that most stormtroopers during the Rebellion era and beyond are not clones). Thus, it's my opinion that while the first "stormies" may well have been clones, the clones are generally phased out for people with more individual minds.

Darth Fierce :vader:

Zanus
13 December 2003, 01:31 PM
Dr_Worm and Darthspectre84, I guess I could see that cloning clones wouldn't be practical. At the same time, though, SW genetic engineering tech is way beyond what we have, so it could be they might have a means of fixing impurities. Just a possibility, not trying to start a whole new argument.

Darth Fierce as covered previously in this thread, the EU is flawed in that they didn't even know which side the Clones where on durring the clone wars. That info didn't come out until some time before EP2 was released. Sitting the EU for examples of non-clone stormies is more or less inconsequential on the whole. Despite the fact that all EU material passes Lucas's desk, there is nothing saying he wouldn't make authors give false info so as to not spoil his movies. Luke being disoriented around the clones was a plot device. Again, Zahn didn't know that Lucas had wanted stormeis to be clones. There is an easy reason why Thrawn's clones are different then 'standard' clones. Thrawns clones where grown far more quickly then the originals, and had ysalimiri cutting off their connection to the force so they wouldn't go insane. Thrawn was worried about the clones going insane because Zahn thought the clone wars was the Jedi fighting clones grown to quickly and had gone insane because of it It's all in the novels.

The NJO did alot to try to bring some unity to all the odd ball EU novels before it, and to account for changes brought on because of the movies, but there are a few things that could not be changed to match up.

Rouge8
13 December 2003, 02:11 PM
My personal beliefs with the clones used by Thrawn is that because they were grown with Ysamali nearby, (major sp there) they could have been permantly affected by it, and be distorted in the Force themselves.

Dr_Worm
13 December 2003, 07:18 PM
Dr_Worm and Darthspectre84, I guess I could see that cloning clones wouldn't be practical. At the same time, though, SW genetic engineering tech is way beyond what we have, so it could be they might have a means of fixing impurities. Just a possibility, not trying to start a whole new argument

It is not even so much that, as it is the vulnerability of clones. Take plague for example: One of the reasons that plague is self limiting is that 1 out of 100 (a guess, probably inaccurate) is genetically resistant to it. Genetic variability makes a population viable over the long run because enough individuals will survive mass disease. Even AIDS seems to be non-symptomatic in some few individuals. However if all members of a given population is genetically the same they would all die (or in the rare case all live). If the disease was targeted to only effect a certain genetic variation that all the clones had(GCG repitition in a certain gene for example) then it could target the cloned pupulation and wipe it out.

Now this is another case where applying realism does not flow with space opera, because clearly stormies are clones, though how many strains are in the population is unknown.

Darthspectre84
14 December 2003, 01:32 PM
Well it says after Jangos death the ARC troopers, those who shared his independance and other qualities, were used to help sustain the clone troopers. And i agree that the EU has many flaws in the fact that they thought it was the clones they were fighting. But also in a comic i heard about that the Separatist fleet atatcked Kamino so they had the thought before to cut the supply of clones.

Oh and another example would be the Yuuzhan Vong (which might drift this topic abit) is they had cloned a creature but they needed the original. Now one cannot doubt that they are the greatest bio-engineers so it shows that there is a limit to this advanced technology.

Also Dr_Worm has a point about the fact that the clone troopers all have the same genetic sequence so any disease that comes would kill them all.
So both theories are feasible...

Zanus
26 October 2006, 08:40 AM
Wow, been awhile. Figured out how to get my profile working again (didn't realize had to confirm email changes) But here it is, probably years later, and the point still seems a bit valid. Actually proven almost.

I wanted to throw something into this thread that I have noticed with the coming and going of the last movie. 2 sources related to the movie, one a source guide, another just a game, both indicated that clones where still produced on Kamino, even after the war, despite a rebellion by the kaminoans, and there where new cloning facilities on other planets that used different genetic stock to make more clone troopers. The source guide indicated this started durring the Clone Wars, the game (Star Wars Battlefront 2) indicated this started after the uprising on kamino.

Sincei different genetic stock would be used, this would answer the question of there being SOME variance in size amongst stormtroopers and dealing with the fact that the original, Jango, has been dead for years so they don't end up with 'photocopy' syndrome.

An odd note to mark my return, but this is one thing I have been thinking about. The post by 'Squee' in rise of empire era is also me. I will not be using that name again.

Reed
16 November 2006, 07:54 PM
Ever since the clones were depicted as the precursor for stormies I always saw stormtroopers as combos of clones and recruits. It makes sense to me that it would start that they were all clones, then Kamino rebels and other genetic stock is used. Where do they get this stock? Recruits. Recruits who perform exceptionally. Somewhere down the road I would think that clones would no longer be made as the Empire began to lose its control of the galaxy and ran low on resources.

Alis_Morningstar
24 November 2006, 01:49 AM
I dunno. I was always a fan of clones and recruits. Instead of just being one or the other, I see there being clones of exceptional recruits and old school clones. As far as being Jango clones, I imagine that there are some of his clones still being made, but I don't imagine that they are still the standard. I just can't see Palps leaving his military production in the hands of aliens.

gmjabreson
5 December 2006, 06:44 AM
I agree, I remember reading somewhere that the stormtrooper "training center" is at an unknown location, which could mean that its basically moved cloning vats spitting out some of the troops from battle hardened troop dna samples, while "volunteer recruits" are trained elsewhere. When the unit is formed they get mixed up like a tossed salad with clones and recruits serving together.

But that's just one way of doing it. It all basically boils down to, how the GM wants to run HIS/HER game.