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lrdgrifter
25 June 2002, 07:17 AM
Perhaps I've just never come across anything specific in the d20 system for this, but does anybody have any info on trials suggestions?
The way I'm running it right now, a padawan must pass a test for every level. If they pass, they advance to the next "plateau", and their master has more faith in them. If they fail, the master feels that they are not yet ready to learn any of the more advanced techniques of the Force, and they do not gain a level (they are reset to half-way through the level).
The tests begin relatively simple, but get increasingly difficult as the levels go by.
My only problem is trying to figure out what to do for a character that is approaching the actual Trials. Does anybody have any clue as to what the Trials consist of? Should the challenges be very difficult - extreme?
I'd like to hear what some of you are doing on this one.
Oh, the campaign is based in RotE, btw.:)

FallenAngel
25 June 2002, 08:13 AM
If I recall, In Darth Maul, Shadow Hunter, the Jedi trials were a test given to padawan about to become a knight. They were difficult, but not extremely so. The Jedi gave obi-wan the rank of knight because his battle with maul was harder than any trail they could give him. Your sysytem seems to be pretty good, though, i may incorporate it.

BrianDavion
25 June 2002, 08:16 AM
way I view it the jedi trials should be as much a test of charcter as of skill..

MrKenpoJr
25 June 2002, 09:39 AM
Well, there was a glorious conversion of the Jedi Trials from the Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments From the Rim D6 supplement that was done by Donovan Morningfire. If you go here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7785) you can find that, along with various and sundry cool additions.

lrdgrifter
25 June 2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by MrKenpoJr
Well, there was a glorious conversion of the Jedi Trials from the Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments From the Rim D6 supplement that was done by Donovan Morningfire. If you go here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7785) you can find that, along with various and sundry cool additions.

I saw that one, but for some reason, it didn't quite strike me as something that would be "all inclusive" for young Jedi.
Whereas it may work for Jedi Guardians, I'm looking for some way to test the physical, mental and emotional state of the prospective Knight. I'd prefer that all the tests not be blended together.
Lightsaber combat and sensing your enemy are very important parts of being a Jedi, but IMHO, it's not enough to bestow the title of Knight on a padawan.
I'd like to hear what some other DM's use as house rules for this major event in the progression of Jedi characters.
Thanks again!:)

leighangelj
25 June 2002, 12:31 PM
Before I confuse everybody with the fact that I was not the GM in the game i'm about to describe, our group consists of roughly 5 or 6 core people. 1 or 2 of these people are strictly players and the other 4 take turns GMing and playing. We also have other players that can't make it every time we game so we incorporate them when they can make it.
On to the stuff related to this post
Sunday night we just finished up our version of the Jedi trials. The GM (Rip Jedi for those of you who have seen him here on the holonet), decided that the three Jedi in the group would have a joint mission to Otherspace as their trials. On the way we met up with a non-Jedi player character who was in some kind of chamber thing on a ship thing (whatever it is found in the otherspace module) and took her with us. The object was to find the six components we needed to fix our hyperdrive, which got destroyed on our original jump into otherspace which is why we hadn't immediately left, and fight bad guys and stuff along the way. oh and that nasty red mist that if you're not careful can cause you to go dark side and all kinds of stuff.
Anyway, that's just another idea: create (or use one that's already created) that has a specific goal in mind for the Jedi to accomplish. For example, someone already mentioned Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. In that story, Darsha Assant's trials were to go to the Crimson Corridor and escort a member of BlackSun to the Jedi academy or something like that it's been a while since i read it.
Hope this helps

MrKenpoJr
25 June 2002, 12:36 PM
I'd prefer that all the tests not be blended together
Ok, I can see that. What sort of definition are you looking for, then? Are you looking for tests that are broken down into 'Guardian and Consular', or just a test that encompasses aspects for both? You could use Yoda's method: Run 'em through an obstacle course to test stamina/endurance/physical condition, then a 'lightsaber drill' or cadence (to sort of test attunement to the Force, or 'Sense'itivity (:)) ), followed by a trip to a Dark Side site (from the DSSB. Not necessarily straight from the book; make your own if you want) to see how well all those lessons that you (their Master) beat into their heads while they were doing handstands and lifting R2 units were learned. Obviously, this draws heavily from ESB, but as I don't have a Padawan that's close enough to actually becoming a Knight, that reference is one of the few things I have to go by.

Puck
26 June 2002, 01:51 AM
Some random thoughts....

I would consider your individual player's expectations of what the Trials would consist of - and then turn those expectations on their head.

A curve ball - if you've got a 'pacifist', give them a problem that requires the use of some force (not necessarily requiring them to kill someone), if they're a 'tank', make 'em use their brains.

I believe, in essence, that the Trials are designed to catch a Padawan off guard and to test their character and understanding of the Force. The Trial should make the character 'uncomfortable' and take them to a mental state where they are unsure of themselves.

It should be possible for the Padawan to dip into the Dark Side as part of the Trial - it is important that a Padawan becomes aware of the dangers of the Dark Side and understands just how tempting it can be.

It is worth considering a kind of Kobayashi-Maru type scenario (Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan reference - sorry :p) - a no-win situation that tests the character of the Padawan, rather than the result.

I reckon that's enough rambling :)

Puck :)

lrdgrifter
26 June 2002, 06:56 AM
I'm liking alot of the ideas I'm getting here, but there's just one thing that I still need. Urgency. The characters are going to be out adventuring facing danger every day. That's just how the campaign is going to be run (hack & slash with puzzles and social RP and a little micromanagement a la The Sims thrown in).
How can I impress the feeling of urgency and gravity upon the prospective Jedi if they're running through an obstacle course? Hell, chances are good that they'll have already done something similar in a real combat situation, dodging blaster bolts the whole way.
The mental part won't be too bad. I think what I'll be doing for that section is sending the Padawan to the surface of a dead planet (no vegetation or life forms above bacteria) with his own provisions for a week. If he can take the absolute solitude without even making an attempt to touch another being with the Force, he passes.
That will test both his mental toughness and his ability to get along without using the Force if need be.
Another thing I want to do is give the character a chance to fall to the Dark Side, like Puck suggested. Perhaps allow the padawan to study an ancient Sith Holocron, then unexpectedly take it away? Test the reaction.
I don't know. This is my first SW campaign where a Jedi lived this long, so I'm not sure what to do! :o
Again, all your help is appreciated!

Lord Diggori
26 June 2002, 08:58 AM
I have given this thought before. I would do the trials as a high role-playing adventure with a mystery theme like self-discovery.

Look at how the Jedi has been played over the course of the campaign. This defines the Jedi's personality. From what you have observed of this character list his strong Jedi qualities and some qualities of Jedi he doesnt show enough. Be sure these under used traits are hard for the player to notice. They may be un-jedi things about his real personality that he wouldnt think twice about.

Make an adventure where he is able to show his strong Jedi qualities at the beginning then have that lead to a failure in some way (nothing too devastating). The only way for him to accomplish his goal or make ammends is to do something Jedi-ish he hates or wouldnt normally.

Don't let any feat or skill check enable his escape. He's got to strategize his way out of this.

Puck
27 June 2002, 03:03 AM
Another thought -

Perhaps have the 'trial' completely and utterly solvable without using the Force. The Masters can then see how much the Padawan relies on the Force, and determine whether or not they are over-reliant on using it.

Irdgrifter, I guess one way of imposing a sense of urgency is to be urgent. Give the player a strict time limit for their responses and actions. Don't let them strategise too much.

Puck :)

DarthGM
27 June 2002, 10:03 AM
I'm about to have 3 Jedi's hit 7th level in my game, and no apprenticship to me is complete with out licking the Dark Side stick.

My PCs are helping set up an Academy on a planet in the Outer Rim. Nearby where the Academy is slated to be built is a minor Dark Side site (think the Dagobah cave). The Masters recognize the site for what it is; touched by the Dark Side. They will send their students into the swamps to investigate the Dark Side eminations. There, the students will be confronted by images of their fears (ask your PCs well in advance what their character is afraid of..it helps). They will need to make Will Saves (sorry, D20 game) or they get a Dark Side point for giving into their fears. If they make the saves, they get a Force Point for overcoming the temptation of the Dark Side.

I know it sucks that I'm reducing this to a die roll, but I personally cannot influence my PCs out of game well enough to represent the constant barraging of the Dark Side of the Force on a potentially powerful Jedi Padawan. Plus, the jaded PC, sitting in a comfortable chair with "Dew" in hand, will say "My character is not unhinged", where as his muck covered character, surrounded by his fears and bombarded by the Dark Side, just might snap under the pressure.

That's my trial. That and performace, attitude, etc over the past few years.

shadow master
28 June 2002, 04:50 PM
Well, I like the idea of being confronted by their greatest fear. Here is something that one game (not even jedi) tested one of my characters who claimed they could not be hurt by pain anymore (He had about 7 different cybernetics placed on him, some were over old cybernetics).
This instructor placed him in a machine without him knowing, and gave him sever emotional trauma. The girl he was in love with getting shot by the guy he trusted the most.
I know, a Jedi is not supposed to love, but you get the idea. I hope that helps.
Here is something related to all. Give them some kind of sever emotional trauma, a great temptation to fall to the Dark Side, and have them confront their greatest fear, all while being chased by a group of Dark Siders much stronger than them. However, that is all from induced dreams that they all share one night when they sleep.
If they get out of the 'dream' with multiple dark side points, due to acting out of fear, anger, and agression, half it (round up) and give them the remainer. Be very easy to award dark side points to, that way if they will appreciate the dark side more than "Its what bad guys use."
I hope that made sense.

BrianDavion
28 June 2002, 07:18 PM
best thing to do.. don't let them KNOW this is "THE TEST"

Fred Getce
28 June 2002, 08:10 PM
I would assume the trials would actually be a mission of great importance to test the resolve and abilities of the young Jedi in question like Ulic, Cay and Tot from TOTJ.

And if you are a sadist like me have the characters face the darkside during it.



Have the characters being sent as envoys for the Republic to some planet that is in a civil war and want peace negotiations. so the people call upon the Republic for help and the Republic in turn call upon the Jedi to use their wisdom and knowledge to negotiate peace for these two violent factions.


Unknwon to all, the civil war was started by a Darkside Magician (in D6, above verteran stats like Control 7D+1, Sense 7D+2, Alter 8D or in D20 a 9th Level Darkside Adept / 1st Level Sith Lord) several years back to destablize the sector for a invasion force from a unknown world or from a very large pirate force (100 ships). A real nasty surprise.


Or you can just have the negotiations require good roleplaying, and test them buy having a couple situations where a wrong move will cause a battle. Have the PCs in the wrong place at the wrong time and see whether they talk their way out or just ignite their lightsabres and start swinging.


Have fun.

Talon Kane
29 June 2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by DarthGM
I know it sucks that I'm reducing this to a die roll, but I personally cannot influence my PCs out of game well enough to represent the constant barraging of the Dark Side of the Force on a potentially powerful Jedi Padawan. Plus, the jaded PC, sitting in a comfortable chair with "Dew" in hand, will say "My character is not unhinged", where as his muck covered character, surrounded by his fears and bombarded by the Dark Side, just might snap under the pressure.[/B]

I am very sorry to hear you have to deal with a player who won't put the emphasis on role-playing a scenario like this. My players know if they don't RP out these scenes, they get screwed. RPing is such an important part of our games and it always adds to the experience.

If I were you, I would make your players RP this out before doing the die roll. If they role-play well, give them a plus to the roll. If someone sits there with the "My character is not unhinged" up his difficulty. I would definitely not make it easy on a character who doesn't want to put effort into role-playing. To me, he or she sounds like a roll-player not a role-player.

BrianDavion
30 June 2002, 08:05 AM
indeed and after the roll if he continues to say it say "tough luck the die says you are, role play it buster"

if he's a munchkin you risk him getting pissed off and leaving but, do you really want someone like that in your group

BrianDavion
30 June 2002, 08:06 AM
anyone else notice something amusing.. the jedi is perhaps the hardest type of chsar to role play.. yet all the beginners with little RPGing experiance seem to wanna play one

Talon Kane
30 June 2002, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
anyone else notice something amusing.. the jedi is perhaps the hardest type of chsar to role play.. yet all the beginners with little RPGing experiance seem to wanna play one

Yep, I noticed this too. But, my two players I have who are playing Jedi are two of my best players, so I have no worries about them playing it. It should be interesting to see them interacting since one is a Male Consular and the other is a Female Guardian.

lrdgrifter
30 June 2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
anyone else notice something amusing.. the jedi is perhaps the hardest type of chsar to role play.. yet all the beginners with little RPGing experiance seem to wanna play one

Actually, that's why I'm making Jedi so difficult. To scare all but the most steadfast roleplayers away from the Jedi. I think with alot of the RP elements I'm adding in, all the Jedi classes will become the bane of any hack & slasher or munchkin at the table.
I appreciate all your advice on this one. I think I'm going to go with that "no win situation" kind of deal. Monitor their reactions. That way, I can test all aspects with different encounters within the test. Perhaps run it on a solo night.
Thanks again for all the help!:)

Tony J Case, Super Genius
2 July 2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by lrdgrifter
My only problem is trying to figure out what to do for a character that is approaching the actual Trials. Does anybody have any clue as to what the Trials consist of? Should the challenges be very difficult - extreme? I'd like to hear what some of you are doing on this one.
Oh, the campaign is based in RotE, btw.:)

Having *JUST* run my Jedi through their trials, I think I've got a good angle on what to do. You see, it's not about lopping the head off a Sith or somesuch. Anybody can do that - big deal. No, my take is all about the mind games, the personal determination and ability to rise above their inner demons.

Rax, the first Padawan, had a habit of chasing down the target into the ground, regardless of the circumstances surrounding them. He was notorious for going so far as to jump onto the fleeing bad guy's ship and disable said ship.

Fine - I gave him the job of bring in a smuggler to the authorities. The catch was - the smuggler was delivering medicine to a plague stricken colony, and Rax's relentless determination could very well kill thousands - if he didn't investigate the situation and learn to let go.

The other Jedi - Tegan simply had to bring a crime lord who had turned states evidence into protective custody. Of course every bounty hunter in the galaxy was after him - making it a fun time for all. That in itself wouldn't be that bad of a trial - but the last Hunter to make an attempt was an extremely close friend of Tegan's. He used his position to get Tegan to let down the guard, sneak a bomb into the crime lord's room and kill him. So the trial wasn't so much getting the scum crime lord back, but Tegan dealing with betrayal.

The last one - well, I wont go into too much detail (the whole outline can be found here: http://www.the-chaos-crew.com/swrpg/gm/games/jedi.htm ) But the trial involved leaving a little girl alone with her molesting, abusive pimp of a father (thanks to a loophole in the law) or kidnapping her and screwing up years of delicate negations between the Republic and the planetary government over mineral rights that the Republic desperately needed.

Good of the one, or good of the many? A helluva tough call to make.

Talon Kane
2 July 2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Tony J Case, Super Genius
The last one - well, I wont go into too much detail (the whole outline can be found here: http://www.the-chaos-crew.com/swrpg/gm/games/jedi.htm ) But the trial involved leaving a little girl alone with her molesting, abusive pimp of a father (thanks to a loophole in the law) or kidnapping her and screwing up years of delicate negations between the Republic and the planetary government over mineral rights that the Republic desperately needed.

Good of the one, or good of the many? A helluva tough call to make.

As sick as this is to say, it is an easy decision to make for the Jedi. Though the right thing would be to remove the girl from the father, if her staying keeps the peace with the Republic, she stays. Remember, Jedi must make their decisions based on the greater good, not the individual's. As Spock, "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few, or the one." Though, that is not to say the Jedi could not have come up with an idea to keep the peace and get the girl away from her father.

BrianDavion
2 July 2002, 07:15 PM
actually the situation is to save her in as clasdinstine a maner as possiable so as to keep the peace AND get her out of there.. if he tries to prevent you "his death could not be helped ohh we are so sorry!"

Tony J Case, Super Genius
2 July 2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
actually the situation is to save her in as clasdinstine a maner as possiable so as to keep the peace AND get her out of there.. if he tries to prevent you "his death could not be helped ohh we are so sorry!"

Ah - but the beauty of the set up is that 9 times out of 10, the players will do something to tip their hand right away. It may not be as drastic as whipping out the sabers and lopping the bastard's head off right then and there - but they will do something that will give the father (and the planetary authorities) a paper trail back to them.

Either way you jump - it's a damn ugly situation. . . . which, as I recall is the point of a trial. :)

BrianDavion
3 July 2002, 12:20 AM
I guess your players aren't as crafty as the folks I play with:)

Talon Kane
3 July 2002, 01:47 AM
My players are crafty. But, I am craftier (is this even a word??). :D

shadow master
3 July 2002, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I started a campaign the other day. The PCs don't know that they are on their trial. It involves keeping another Jedi (NPC) safe while she completes her mission. We got about 4 hours of solid role-play time down (I like them to RP during combat, not just mindlessly killing things), and already the Jedi Consular have 4, yes 4 dark side points. Lucky his the wisest of the Jedi.
But I have my ways of bringing him back or he suffers not completing the test, being humiliated when they meet their new masters (they don't know it yet but their current masters are getting killed right now :D), and possibly failing their mission to keep the NPC from getting kidnapped. That all rides on him. The others have their own interesting destinies.
The really sad thing is, the older of the Jedi Guardians, isn't doing anything and he is higher level than the 14 year old Jedi Guardian. :? (Well, the older Jedi Guardian did accidently kill a bunch of civilians by trying to shoot a Dark Sider with a Starship weapon while in the docking bay, and missed, Dark Side due to guilt)
So back with the trials, their trial to keep her protected and right now their are being successful, but falling to the Dark Side. It should be interesting. Well, this is what I get for having low-level Jedi fighting under the extreme column.

Jim Williams
25 July 2002, 06:25 AM
I agree with an earlier post that the trial should test character. Okay, it needs to test skill too, but that IMO should be minor. The Council can't look and go, ahhh level 6 you are...almost ready to progress you are, or 6D you have in Control, Sense , and Alter, etc.

But this should be basic...lift this, do that, sense that. Have the PCs make rolls, but have them make enough that a few failures won't make them flunk. (Everyone can roll badly, but on average their Force skill ranks should get them through).

The character test should be tough. Greatest fear, resorting to the lightsaber too quickly, judging by appearances, willingness to die if necessary, trusting the will of the Force...all are great tests. I've hinted to my players about 5 times through comments and writing that Jedi sometimes pull off plans that save millions, and the very next mission give their lives on some nameless backwater stopping a gang of gunfighters from killing two or three innocents.

Resorting to the dark side should definitely be cause for failure.

I have two padawans approaching that magical point...one of them is going to have to escort a murderer to trial at a neutral location. And, of course, a lot of "nice" folks would rather he not get a trial. And just when they think it's a clear cut case off letting justice preside over law, things are not going to be as they seem.

And my guess is that usually the trial should be "real" life or a real mission...from there on the Knight is going to have enormous responsibility all on her or his own. It is the Master's responsibility to seize a test that measures character, but is not too difficult or without real consequences for failure.

Jim Williams

"I'm a Jedi (head flick), like my father before me."

Corr Terek
25 July 2002, 07:47 AM
Good of the one, or good of the many?

How did that trial turn out, by the way?

I've read over that trial at the Chaos Crew's site, and I gotta say there are lots of possibilities for it, as far as testing your Padawan PCs goes. For instance, an interesting twist would be that the father actually allows the Jedi to buy the girl from him peacefully. However, now the PC has a badly scarred pre-teen/early teen girl on his hands -- who, if the PC is a guy, might develop a crush on them (as the Chaos Crew scenario stated). Knight in shining armor and all that. Not only that, but the PC has just become a slave owner. Moral implications there. Not only THAT, but (if the PC is a guy) it opens up a whole new area for slander by the cruder citizenry of the planet. No matter how pure the Jedi's intentions in buying the girl may be, there'll be crude people who won't look at it that way. It is a good test to see if the Padawan has the personal strength to overcome insults to himself and constant abuse/gossip/slander.

Agback
25 July 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by BrianDavion
best thing to do.. don't let them KNOW this is "THE TEST"

Yep. The idea is to test their character under field conditions. If they know this is the test they will be more on their guard.

Schedule their test for a few weeks' time, and suggest that they ought to spend a little time in physical training, studying Jedi classics, and practising lightsabre kata. Imply that the test is a big ceremonial occasion, and that lots of busy people have to attend, and that it was really difficulty to schedule them all.

A little bit later, have someone higher-ranked and not associated with their training give them a "routine mission" to do, like go somewhere and collect someone, or escort someone to somewhere, or go somewhere to get something, with someone as a guide. Imply that the escort is ceremonial, and that the character is being sent because he hasn't anything important to do at the moment. Make the someone (guide or traveller under escort) really irritating, like Yoda when he is first encountered, of a snooty princess, or a brat with a penchant for pranks, wandering away, and saying embarrassing things (e.g. "Mine! Mine, or I help you not!", or "Mister Governor, why are you so fat?"). And rig their equipment to fail according to a program.

Pile the frustrations on top of one another and see if they tend to become short-tempered.

Then have their starship conk out in an uncharted system or out in Hutt territory, and drop them into a tricky situation. See whether they start relying excessively on the Force.

Pull a few tricks out of horror movies, leading up to a confrontation with their biggest fear. See if they get scared.

If they come through that alright, hold a ceremonial test such as assembling a lightsabre from off-the-shelf parts. And never let the character do more than guess what was his real test.

Regards,


Agback

Puck
26 July 2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Jim Williams
Resorting to the dark side should definitely be cause for failure.

Why is that Jim? It has be suggested by others (who remain nameless due to my faulty memory :rolleyes: ) that it would be better to have a 'B' or 'C' ranked Padawan who flirted with the Dark Side - like Luke & Obi-Wan giving in to their anger - than to have an 'A' grade Padawan who passes with flying colours, but has no understanding of the real dangers of the Dark Side.

I doubt Obi-Wan would have been granted Knighthood in EPI due to his 'angrified' attack on Maul.

Or are you very strict with your Dark Side rules? ;)

Fred Getce
26 July 2002, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Agback
And rig their equipment to fail according to a program.


I don't think the council would condone such actions. The trial will be difficult enough with the Padawan having to make all the decisions for themselves and living with the consequences without their Master their to help them or fix their mess. Besides it is way to risky that a malfunction could result in personal injury or death as a direct result of such equipment failures.



Originally posted by Agback
Pile the frustrations on top of one another and see if they tend to become short-tempered.[/B]

This is not a good idea from a GMs perspective. While we may want to make the Jedi player understand the difficulties of being a Jedi, you shouldn't just start adding headaches to the game session (some people use gaming as a way to release tension from work and do not need that kind of agrivation in a game). Simply set up the trial ahead of time and try to plan out every contingency you can think of and run it to the hilt. No short cuts. No quarter given. No more Mrs. Nice Guy.

Maybe I should post a Jedi trial adventure I made. Pretty good and tests character's diplomacy, quick thinking and mental discipline to not use physical force or Force abilities. Basically it is a peace negotiations with a wicked twist of a surprise. <insert evil smiley>

Agback
26 July 2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Fred Getce
The trial will be difficult enough with the Padawan having to make all the decisions for themselves and living with the consequences without their Master their to help them or fix their mess.

On the other hand this must perforce be a trial of the Padawan's qualities, not his master's.


Besides it is way to risky that a malfunction could result in personal injury or death as a direct result of such equipment failures.

Not if you set it up with a little care, so that equipment you choose fails in a way that you choose under circumstances that you choose.


Maybe I should post a Jedi trial adventure I made. Pretty good and tests character's diplomacy, quick thinking and mental discipline to not use physical force or Force abilities. Basically it is a peace negotiations with a wicked twist of a surprise. <insert evil smiley>

Well, I wouldn't think that the Jedi Order would test Padawans by putting them up against real important stuff, because if it's real and important and if the test is other than a forgone conclusion they might cause some real important bad consequences.

Besides, it a Jedi knight's average working career is, say, fifty years, and there are ten thousand Jedi knights, about 200 Padawans pass their tests per year. Not to mention any number who perhaps fail. How many peace negotiations do you suppose the Order has to spare?

Regards,


Agback

Fred Getce
26 July 2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Agback
On the other hand this must perforce be a trial of the Padawan's qualities, not his master's.

I said the Master was not there to help them. Why on Coruscant would they set up a trial for someone who is not there.



Originally posted by Agback
Not if you set it up with a little care, so that equipment you choose fails in a way that you choose under circumstances that you choose.


Still way to risky. Simply because of all the infinite possibilities that could occur and the Jedi Masters cannot think of everything. They set up a ship to drop out of hyperspace and unknwon the them the Hutt crimelord Garbaga the Hutt is parked right outisde the Padawan's ship with fifteen heavy turbo lasers cannons targetting them. Or they have the sensors fail and they hit by black rocks or something, or whatever. Just way to risky.


Originally posted by Agback
Well, I wouldn't think that the Jedi Order would test Padawans by putting them up against real important stuff, because if it's real and important and if the test is other than a forgone conclusion they might cause some real important bad consequences.[/B]

You should read TOTJ (Tales of the Jedi). They send three Padawans to Onderon to settle a dispute before Civil war breaks out. Oh they frell it up, but that is because there were darksiders there. Besides the Jedi are going to have to deal with such difficult challenges in their life anyway. It makes no sens to give them a cake run for their trial to have them flub the biggest peace talks in the galaxy because they were unprepared. Besides lets not forget that most Padawans who take the trials are very mature adults (OB1 was in what twenties), and they have many years of knowledge poured into them by Jedi Masters, plus their experiences should more than prepare them for simple negotiations. Plus if they do cause severe consequences than they are not cut out to be Jedi, assuming they fouled up because they did not follow the Jedi creed and other some such. IT is quite possible that even if a Jedi Master was sent they may still lead to bad things.

Jim Williams
27 July 2002, 04:12 AM
To Puck,

I'm assuming failure for turning to the dark side because I'm also assuming they get more chances to try the trials (but not many).

I also think it's important for me to say, IMO, that Luke and Obi-Wan did not endure the Jedi Trials to be Knights. They were thrown headfirst in the mother of all live-fire tests. Their performance made any trial irrelevant, because only a fully trained Jedi wiith the Force as his ally could have defeated Maul or Vader respectively.

Was Obi-Wan angry after Qui-Gonn died? Yes. But not overly so. Tread closely he did. I do feel it is possible to fight w/o anger (Ben vs. Vader, Qui-Gonn vs. Maul), but I don't think Obi-Wan was out of line.

As for Luke, well, he was pi...extremely angry. I'm sure all of us could put in good arguments about whether Luke got a total of 0 to 1,383 DSPs once he struck at the Emperor. But that was not a trial. If I were GMing Luke, he would have gone a long way back toward "atoning" by doing two simple actions---sparing his father and tossing his lightsaber away. Clearly some part of Luke perceived the will of the Force.

Jim Williams

Fred Getce
27 July 2002, 09:17 AM
I agree.


OB1 faced a Sith Lord Battlemaster and survive and not only that but vanquished Maul, so the Council felt that he had performed as a Jedi should. He definitely showed anger and rage right after Qui-Gonn was killed, but he was not using the Force and fighting so I think he was safe. Basically OB1 took a trial to end all trials.

Luke however was also on the edge throughout most of his life. He had a good moral character growing up on Tatooine, but he definitely showed a lack of self control from ANH on. It is also funny if you think about it he trusted OB1's judgement more than Yoda.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
27 July 2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Corr Terek


How did that trial turn out, by the way?

Well, the Padawan managed to not reduce the father to a fine red mist right there on the spot. She rented the girl for 24 hours from her father (who thought it was exceptionally kinky, but didn't mind the huge stack of credits). The Padawan and the girl ducked out the back door, and she took them back to their ship (which operated as Republic territory, much like an embassy).

Then she got in touch with a small political party who was looking to reform the law that made the child prostitution legal, and gave them all kinds of resources to get he PR machine in full swing. They started prepping the Spin Machine with the angle of "Look what the current administration is allowing to happen to YOUR children"

The Padawan, on the other hand quickly coincided to any outstanding points in the treaty and closed the deal between the planet and the Republic. There might be a storm coming down on her, but at least the legal contract was finalized.

So when the father got in touch and wanted his daughter back, she told him that she was a Jedi and had no intention of returning the girl. He went to the cops, who went to their superiors, who went up the chain of command to the President - who was not happy at all. But by that point, there wasn't much he could do, except revoke the lease on the Jedi facility that was currently under construction.

Having unleashed the PR machine, the padawan quietly took the girl and exited stage right. She's currently living with the Jedi back at their sector's embassy - a dangling subplot to further hassle the players at a later date.

Puck
28 July 2002, 02:24 AM
So, Jim and Fred, you both feel that the 'Trials' are a formalised thing - rather like attaining a new belt in martial arts?

Is so, that is interesting in itself - many here on the HoloNet appear to have the view that a Padawan's test is 'sprung' on them when they least expect it. Hence, Obi-Wan was granted Knighthood by the simple fact that no Master was ever gonna set a trial like that one!!

Also, I really do think Obi-Wan 'lost it' and used the Dark Side when fighting Maul. When the shield wall comes down, Kenobi attacks Maul with GREAT ferocity. Maul is actually being beaten now - something that was not happening even when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting in tandem. Kenobi even manages to strike Maul's weapon.

But Maul gets on top of Obi-Wan - using the Force for attack and pushing him into the pit. It is here that Obi-Wan calms himself and - by use of the Force as a Jedi should use it - defeats Maul.

Of course this is all just IMHO. :) ;)

Jim Williams
28 July 2002, 05:46 AM
Hey Puck,

Looking at my posts here, I guess I was wishy-washy on whether it was a test or a real life assignment. I guess I'll be more clear and vague by saying the Council would use whichever was appropriate---a test or a mission---so that padawans are unsure of what to expect.

Although the dialogue in EpI ("I am ready to face the trials" "He is ready for the trials") and the fact that it is called a trial just feels like a test.

But then Yoda specifically told Luke that face Vader (Again? What are you freaking crazy?!!? He almost killed me last time! Look at my hand you little green twit! Besides, you're on your last legs there, little dude. I might just JOIN him. Hah, didn't see that coming did ya?) he must to be a Jedi. I really feel that wasn't a trial though. Yoda knew Luke could either do it with what he knew of the Force or not, the title of Jedi Knight would not matter.

Jim Williams

P.S. IMO, if Obi-Wan "lost it" facing Maul, that would have played into Maul's hand, not vice versa. It is hard to veiw whether anger is bleeding over into a dark side point, or if Obi-Wan is fighting like he's never fought before. A moment of angry expression replaced by resolute determination shouldn't be mistaken for battle rage. In the end, Obi-wan was just not up to Maul's bag of tricks. That little Force Push at the end wouldn't have mattered much except Maul (an expert at maneuvering through a duel) put Obi-Wan right where he wanted him and finished him with style. Well, sort of. I, like Darth maul, am divided (heh heh) on the issue of whether Obi-Wan could have won the fight in neutral terrain.

Fred Getce
28 July 2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Puck
So, Jim and Fred, you both feel that the 'Trials' are a formalised thing - rather like attaining a new belt in martial arts?

Is so, that is interesting in itself - many here on the HoloNet appear to have the view that a Padawan's test is 'sprung' on them when they least expect it. Hence, Obi-Wan was granted Knighthood by the simple fact that no Master was ever gonna set a trial like that one!!

Also, I really do think Obi-Wan 'lost it' and used the Dark Side when fighting Maul. When the shield wall comes down, Kenobi attacks Maul with GREAT ferocity. Maul is actually being beaten now - something that was not happening even when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting in tandem. Kenobi even manages to strike Maul's weapon.

But Maul gets on top of Obi-Wan - using the Force for attack and pushing him into the pit. It is here that Obi-Wan calms himself and - by use of the Force as a Jedi should use it - defeats Maul.

Of course this is all just IMHO. :) ;)

Only in EU and the comic books or some ones Star Wars RPG campaign have we seen such things as springing a trial on a Padawan when they least expect it. From the movies stand point they do not do this because that is just plain risky. In EPI and EPII we have seen Jedi being freely open with each other. It is more than likely that the Jedi live such indiscriminant lives that they do not hold secrets from each other for they may believe that is also of the darkside to spread disbelief or to not tell the truth to their own kind. As a result every Padawan knows they will have to one day face a trial to test their mental, bravery, skill and belief in the Force and when they day comews they are informed of it. This does make sense in an eastern philosophy kind of way. Since GL used bits and peices from such ideals I would say that unlike our SW RPG campaigns (I'm as guilty as the rest) we have Jedi Masters springing surprises and spreading falsehoods amongst Padawans.

Of course we also run games that are more grim than what the Star Wars galaxy really is with darkside adepts and acolytes springing up like weeds everytime a Jedi PC turns around. It appears that Jedi are more sterile in regards to their views on each other and on testing Padawan.

I have yet to even hear of what a trial involves, but I highly doubt it is something like "Travel to the planet of blood, across the sands of despair, climb the mountain of pain, past the dragons of eternity and retrieve the sacred scepter of Oman-Rai and return to the council and than and only then will you be a Jedi".

More than likely by just using what we have seen from the movies. It could very well just be a massive physical, mental, spiritual and skillful test of the mind, body and spirit OR they take a 2 hour test of 200 questions to pass. ;)


Now about OB1. We all saw his face right after Qui-Gonn bit it from Maul and he did have a evil sneer like look to his face. However we could say the same thing about Qui-Gonn and Mace Windu using "ferocity" as you put it when they were in combat too, I mean Qui-Gonn even went so far as to back hand Maul off of a catwalk (Jedi will resort to cheap tactics) and Mace first destroys Fett's blaster than decapitates him. What ever happen to the belief that Jedi seek to simply disarm a person there by making them a non-threat (Maul not included ofcourse). I think that was a theory proposed by fans (using only EU and RPGs) without all the facts and now we belief it as fact when in truth Jedi will kill at the drop of a hat, at least when you threaten their life they will. You got a blaster and take a few shots at a Jedi than that Jedi will either deflect the bolts back at you or get in close and slice and dice you.

Now we know Jedi can feel emotions and display them (Obi-Wan's crying for example and Anakins speech to Padme on the transport about their compassion and such), however they do not act on them (there is a big difference there). Obi-Wan never used the Force against Maul at any time after the shield wall came down, he realied on his lightsabre skill alone to defeat him. The only time he used the Force was too leap up and out of the pit and strike his assailant down (Qui-Gonn used ti when he leaped down off of the catwalk after Maul). Same for every Jedi we have seen exempt of course is the Skywalkers.

Basically I feel that when Jedi PC are going to take their "trials" it is basically their first actual "mission" as a Jedi to see how well they have learned all their lessons and the knowledge the Masters have instilled in them. The mission could be just about anything. Bringing peace to two warring factions on a planet like a civil war, transporting dignitaries through dangerous part of space to a summit meeting for the Republic, to even something like having them travel into territory of some pirate organization and bring back vital intel so the Republic fleets can locate them and stop them.

Jim Williams
29 July 2002, 04:32 AM
Fred,

Good points about the motives of the Jedi in relation to their padawan's test. I hadn't really considered it from the view that some ways of managing the trials would be beneath them. Maybe the trials---first mission, 200 question essay test, a vigorous evaluation of one's raw abilities---are so difficult it doesn't matter if the padawan knows it's coming. Heh, psychologically, it might be better if they didn't know, but the Jedi tell them as an added factor in the test. There's also the fact that a Jedi padawan with the Force as his ally should KNOW when the trials are coming...



I still don't think the trials would evaluate much of the padawan's skill in using the Force. His or her Master should have ample evidence after years of observation, including times of stress and danger.

ShmobyKnight89
31 July 2002, 11:46 AM
I have three things a Jedi (or sith) must do to become a jedi knight. First they have to pass a pre-trial test to see if the are really ready (moving a heavy block, convincing a guard to stand on their head through the force or something). This can be attempted at any level (before 7th). Then they must build their lightsaber. Finally I put a bigger challenge in front of them (one that is usally an adventure and will give them enough experience to advance to 7th). I did a short one for my Sith apprentice to beat a Jedi twice their level (he rolled a 20 on his first roll, so maybe it should have been 2 Jedi....) You could do a similar thing with a jedi.

Just some random thought....