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lordbynight
25 June 2002, 06:00 PM
I have been reading a few post on how maybe it wasent really Anikan who would bring balance to the force but it would be his son Luke. I dont know about everyone else but after Vader and the Empire is destroyed. To be it doesent constitute balance. Now we have a whole Jedi Counsal and around two dark jedi. Thats not balance either. My question is when the hell will this balance come? It may have been the empire when they took over but then they went and wiped out the jedi. So much for balance when is it coming Ill be waiting patiently. HEEHEEHEE :D

Zanus
25 June 2002, 08:59 PM
Ok, I have an answer for this, but first you must forget everything you know of the EU. OK? The reason I say this is cause the person who told me this thought stream never read any of the novels, but is VERY intelligent. I doubt he would be my frnd otherwise (mind you, all my frnds are intelligent in some aspect but have serious social or psychological problems, so it works out). Anyway, we where talking about this, and he just layed out the answer like it was so obvious everyone shoulda seen it by now (The obvious answer is always overlooked).

Okey, at the start of A New Hope, we know what actual Jedi actually still live? Obi-Wan and Yoda (yes, we don't learn of Yoda until ESB, but that is besides the point).

What other actual force users still live? Darth Vader and Palpy.

Mind you, only the EU has any mention of other living force users. For Lucas and the movies they do not count, so they are cast off in this discussion.

Seeing a trend? Two light side users, and two Dark side users.

Vader/Anakin KILLS all the jedi except two, Yoda, arguably the most powerful Jedi that ever lived, and Obi-wan who is more or less on par with Vader in ANH (He let himself die, and we all know it). Palpy is the master of the Sith, with Vader as the apprentice.

Others who I have said this to have pointed out that the dark side isn't as powerful as the light side. true, but the dark side is much easier to use then the light side, so balance is maintained in this aspect.

From the time the third to last true Jedi dies (Shaft Windu is my bet) to the time Obi-wan is slain there is balance in the force. Luke, at the time of Obi-wans death, is not very powerful in the force. He remains as such until Dagobah, and maybe even past that. He had to draw on the dark side to defeat Vader on the second death star, and was saved by not actually killing Vader.

Anyway, you get the point. agree or no?

Bombaatu
25 June 2002, 09:45 PM
Lessee... before the Purge, you have 1000+ Jedi and 2 Sith...
After the Purge (with Anakin/Vader doin' da dirty work), you have 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) and 2 Sith (Vader, Palpy)... seems balanced to me... ;)

Jedi_Staailis
26 June 2002, 10:21 AM
I have to think that the Jedi Council would be smarter than to willingly train the "Chosen One" if that was the kind of balance they thought was coming. Remember, the debate was over whether Anakin was the Chosen One. Qui-Gon used the term like it was the ultimate trump card. If Anakin was the Chosen One, the risks of training him would be far overshadowed by the potential gain of bringing "balance to the Force." Clearly, none of the Jedi would have even considered training him if they thought he would almost be the end of the order.

In my opinion, the Force is in balance when those who direct its power do so unobtrusively. Rather than trying to manipulate it, they "follow the will of the Force." With diversity among the Jedi, the living and unifying Force are balanced. The dark side, with its destructive and power sucking nature, goes against any concept of balance in the Force. Anakin destroys the Sith once and for all, the Force has a chance to come back into balance.

Zanus
26 June 2002, 11:08 AM
I am sorry, I disagree. They have made every indication that they cannot see what the future brings. They have no way of knowing what the balance will be, they just hold the utmost optimisim that it will be in their favor. In a way, what I previously described is in their favor for what you think will be the balance. But the death of the Sith is not the balance, the existence of the sith, with only two jedi is the balance. the time of the balance may not be good, but the after effects (death of the sith, but unfortunetly the two jedi, with the birth of a new jedi or even two) are the good part...more or less. realy depends on if in Lucas's vision he sees leia becomeing a Jedi, and if hte Empire completely crumbles with the death of the emperor like the end of the Special Edition RotJ would sort of indicate.

Anyway, sorry, my point is the Jedi have absolutly no idea what form the Balance of the Force will take, just that in some ways it will be benificial some how, to a certain point of view (which is what the jedi are all about ironically enough). They couldn't possibly know it would mean all of their deaths (and I do mean all, in the end) and the start of a less educated order (I think that is one aspect of the NJO that might actually have some truth to it based on what Lucas has presented in the movies. Luke didn't finish his formal training, he really cant be considered a true jedi)

Anakin directly brings about the balance by killing the jedi, and indirectly ends the balance by fathering Luke and Leia, both of whome worked to end the balance in one way or another, and for different amounts of time. Leia diplomatically, then militarily for much of her life, Luke for a comparitivly short time but doing ALOT.

Heh, mental track got derailed again. I have made my point, and will now move on. Thanks for reading this far :)

wolverine
26 June 2002, 11:38 AM
Just a side question, but does anyone know When or WHY, or from Whom the prophasy came from????

Zanus
26 June 2002, 02:24 PM
Balance in the force? I believe it was originally mentioned by Qui-gon Jinn after seeing Anakins Miticlorean count. Brought up a couple other times by the Jedi Counsil, or to the counsil. why do you ask?

wolverine
27 June 2002, 03:06 AM
THey were making mention of it, to quote (to my memory)

"You think this boy is the vergence, the prophesy spoke of" says master Mace
QUigon replies "Yes i do master".

They were talking about it, but at no time, has anyone said WHO made the prophesy, When it was predicted/made and where it was made...

The Admiral
30 June 2002, 02:12 PM
Bah, prophesies are prophesies.

"From the burning lands shall come a Chosen One, born but not concieved, and they shall bring Balance to the Force"

All a load of drivel. It's always the same. Meaningless cliched lines. No one ever knows what they actually mean until after something has happened and THEN everyone goes 'oh, yeah, that's what i thought'

You never get helpful prophesies, like:

"One day a Jedi Master, I think his name sounds something like 'Dried Gummy Chin'. Anyhoo, he'll get back from somewhere, and he'll have this funny rabbit thing with him, oh and a brat of some sort. Yes yes yes, I'm GETTING to the point. Right, whatever you do, DON'T train the brat, it'll be REALLY bad. WAY bad Karma. Send it back to wherever it came from. And the rabbit thing? Shoot it. Right, now, where did I put my tea? Oh, you're sitting on it. Oh, stang, wait a sec, I nearly forgot, Watch out for BOB!"


All the speculation seems a tad fruitless to me. Everyone seems to be assuming there's some kind of galactic karma scales. It's far more likely to be a general 'the one who will do some fairly serious hefty stuff' than anything else.


But, for those who insist of going that way, an alternate interpretation, balance has many meanings. The one who brings balance to the force is just as likely to mean 'the one who stops the collapse' Oh no! The Force is teetering of the brink of falling forever to the Dark Side! Something must balance this thing! Wait! It's the Chosen One! He just 86'd the bad guy! Yay! We're no longer teetering, balance has been restored. Oh, darn, but he's toast.

Jaggard
30 June 2002, 04:30 PM
Um... an Idea just occured to me. What if The Balance of the The Force is not about the people or the numbers but the force itself. We've heard that the force is neither good nor evil, so it wouldn't seek either. Maybe the balance of the force is for each side to stop trying to destroy each other and work in concert. The creatures who weild it are the ones who give it good or evil intent but it seeks neutrility. I'm inclined to beleive that only they invented the war between them because they saw no way to exist side by side. The force itself did not start the conflict. A weak example of this is an issue of the comic series Exile when the group hops from one reality to another fixing things to get reality back the way they want it. They met another team who had the same goal but had different missions in order to do that. The regular team went about saving people and similar things the other team did the murders and things like that. Each team is needed in order to acheive success of a mutual goal and the good guys can stop the badguys unless they wish to abandon the goal.
I think a small temporaray balance was achieved when Luke refused to kill his father and vader stopped fighting luke (admittedly he was beaten but he didn't use force choke or trip him over the edge of the pit) They stopped fighting and neither seemed to be truely pure either. Luke was angry and stopped attacking less because it was wrong and more to spit the emporor (yeah i'm stretching it) and Vader saw no victory in it. Either his son dies or he does, both destroys a powerful force user, and his son seemed to be resistant to the darkside. So The jedi wouldn't die (even his daughter might carry it on if luke died at the emporors hands. So it seemed to both of them that no gain could be had from continuing. When it looked like the emporor might kill Luke and vader knew he'd die it would leave the emporor in charge and only the princess to oppose it. So Vader destroyed the emporor and himself leaving his son who has seemed for the most part to hold a near neutral footing and brought about a new age of jedi some destined for darkness some for light and other seem undecided.
It would seem that they are closer to a balance now then ever. The fallen and dark jedi don't seek to destroy the good but see no problem in doing things differently where the YV are concerned. The dark and light might very well be allies in a common war.

Zanus
30 June 2002, 05:12 PM
ok, no offense, BUT DON'T EVER COMPARE MARVEL TO STAR WARS!!! such blasphemy makes Blink cry :(

hehe, anyway, I have always believed in the KISS principle. Keep It Simple St..er..well, you get the message. I realy dont see the point in reading to much into the balance if there is a perfectly obvious answer that will keep me tied over until EpIII. But that is just me.

Jaggard
30 June 2002, 08:04 PM
DON'T EVER COMPARE MARVEL TO STAR WARS!!! such blasphemy makes Blink cry

Um... ooooookay. I like to pretend I came up with the story line to exiles. I even sent an email out to Marv over a year or so ago. Only my group would have been Blink, morph, Spider-Girl, x-man, Rachel summers, Joseph (young magneto), Blood storm, penance, Metal head from X-men 2099. I think these are some of the ones I suggested as possibilities. I have a fondness for the odd or lost people.
I also had a version I started as an outline on my computer. Some other characters including some from DC and even Amalgam made it into some.

But I still think Blink Morph Spider-Girl X-man and Pheonix 2 would be the ultimate team.

But so we don't deveat too much from the SW theme of the board, there are some useful bits from marvel that would be neat for star wars. One I'm pondering now is the use of The Hounds (Rachel Summers) as force adepts used to hunt jedi.

hellvider
4 July 2002, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Bombaatu
After the Purge (with Anakin/Vader doin' da dirty work), you have 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda) and 2 Sith (Vader, Palpy)... seems balanced to me... ;)

Don't you count the Darkside Prophets ? They are also force users and change the balance of the force ... :?
I think you have also to count force users, who were not destroyed, and in the rebellion are book they talk about an Dark Side school leaded by Palpatin himself, where he can traine new Dark Side users. And there is also the secret agent called BlackHole, who is a strong Dark Side user....

In that way, it seems to me that there is not really balance, because dark sider users are more than light side users. :D

Zanus
4 July 2002, 11:17 AM
First, you need to remember not to count the EU or any Tales of books into the movies. The roleplaying games are, in away, EU and infinities (sense gm's can mess with the time line if they want). You do not hear about any dark side adepts or minor force adepts anywhere in the movies, except leia, who didn't even know she could use the force. My theory on the balance of the force is active force users who are fully trained. Sense no mention of this school is made int he movies, it does not count to the final product (unless, for some inexplicable reason, GL decides to throw it in, but I see that as unlikely).

For the EU, yeah, that is a good point, but then the EU never worked off the idea of Balance in the Force until Ep1 came out. If that school did exist, then you would have to count all the other jedi hidden away in the galaxy. Or the other force users, at least three different types all more or less of the light side. Witches of Dothimir (balanced by night hags, yes) jenessairi (or whatever) and Ysanna of DE2 (minor point, but still interesting breed of force users)

After you tally all that up, there might actually still be more light side users then dark side.

KnightMair
5 July 2002, 09:21 AM
OK, there is a thread in the general discussion on "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" that touches on this a little.

"The Force is an energy field generated by all living things... it has a light side and a dark side."

Being generous, lets say that the number beings in the galaxy that can call on the power of the Force in some way, numbers in the millions. The Galaxy contains trillions upon trillions of sentient beings living in it (if not more). To say any one person can influence the Force is hubris plain and simple.

The whole concept of a chosen one bringing balance to the Force makes no sense. How is the Force itself out of balance? For all the weight that the "chosen one" is given by the Jedi council I never understood exactly what he was supposed to do. The number of Jedi vs the number of Sith really does not effect the Force itself. In the rebellion, there are two KNOWN Jedi and two KNOWN Sith. I ask, so what? How many thousands of non-trained Force sensitive people are still out there? And do they matter to the "Balance of the Force?"

AOTC for me showed a Jedi order in its decline, arrogant, inflexible and autocratic. The Republic itself was in bad shape. It seemed there was a lot of worry about the "separatists" splitting the Republic. I asked, why do so many systems want out of the Republic if it is so nice? Another question is: Aren't the clones really genetically programmed slaves? They all are living beings, with their own connection to the Force. Why didn't the Jedi order ever have a problem with using people like this? Do the clones not count as "people?" What is the difference between the slavery practiced on Tatooine, that is outlawed in the Republic, and the Clones?

The Empire rules by fear, or to put a finer point on it, have a big enough military on hand to stop any system, or group of systems, from uprising in revolt. Which is what the Old Republic did to the "Separatists." At no point in the movie were the Separatists attacking the Republic. In fact the only "threat' was never articulated was a desire to separate from the Republic. There was no mention of incursions into Republic held territory, no scenes showing the "Separatists" actually threatening the Republic in any way. Count Doku's argument to Obi Wan was very compelling, I thought they were going to have Doku actually battling Palatine for a minute there.

So, by "Balance to the Force" could it have meant "Order to the Galaxy?" At this point I don't really know what the Jedi meant. I'm not sure it can be answered, or if the whole "Balance to the Force" issue is a red herring.

AOTC shook my faith in the Jedi, and made me question the whole Rebellion movement in episodes 4 - 6. But that is another topic.

Thanks for listening.

KnightMair

Ravager_of_worlds
5 July 2002, 09:55 AM
I never supported the "rebellion" in 4-6. then again, i also rooted for Cobra Commander during saturday morning cartoons.

As a GM, i'm very tempted to run a Rise of the Empire campaign where the players are actively working for Tarkin or Kuat, to bring about the formation of the New Order.

In the "Balance" to the force- i think it ultimately was a philosophical argument; in philosophy, there are many gray and minute areas. I'm wondering if this "Balance" thing is Lucas poking fun at philosophy, which the Jedi get into heavily and ignore the "basic good and evil" concepts of the common man. Which Luke and Darth's struggles later exemplifies.

In many ways though, i think the Force is 'in balance' already. It just works real good for the regular Sith. Maybe Darth Bane understood the entire "a system that has been acted on by an outside force will struggle to attain an equilibrium". The Sith voluntarily kept their numbers low... for stealth, and possibly some extra goodies from the force? By being the 'only two' with the dark side access, their power would be phenomenal. Like swimming in a lake while all the regular jedi got to get wet in kiddie pools becuase they all shared the same 'water'.

The Admiral
5 July 2002, 10:20 AM
I asked, why do so many systems want out of the Republic if it is so nice?
Well, the official doohickey is; The Separatists are composed of several of the most senior corporate entities (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Intergalactic Banking Clan, and the Corporate Alliance) that in addition to having total control over many systems directly hold the financial lynchpins of the entire galaxy. They want to separate mainly to avoid taxation levied by the Republic. Several Senators has allied themselves to the Separatists for a whole variety of reasons.

So the basic answer is; money. Money on an inconceivable level.

The problem is that all of the commercial interests have armies that they are quite willing to use to enforce their point of view.

The Republic is neither happy to let these systems leave the Republic, (The commercial forces are known for their draconian measures) nor is it happy that those who would go would be those financial institutions. (If they do go, the galactic economy will collapse.)

However, it is worth noting that yet again, Bob has created an army in order for it to be defeated. He only gains anything as long as he can actually defeat the Separatists, as was the case with Naboo.

Obviously, that has nothing per se to do with the Balance of the Force as such, but I agree with KnightMair that the whole scenario puts a very different perspective on the Jedi as they stand. I find it difficult to reconcile the concept of using 200,000 clones, hot housed and conditioned beyond anything remotely approaching a concept of 'fair play' with the Jedi ideals.

OTOH, it is a case of two evils. It might be interesting to see how the Jedi handle the creation of additional clones. One could argue that the evil has already been done in creating the standing current army, and there's nothing anyone can do about that now, therefore using them for the greater good is valid. Creating MORE however, does raise a serious ethical dilemma. Or rather, it certainly should.

It is possible that the BotF is a red herring, but again, I think it's never meant to really MEAN anything, at least nothing that could be explained in such mundane terms as 'number of Jedi' or 'equal power'. It's a little like the Kwisatz Haderach, the Prophecy covers a few details (Name of Usul, calls a big worm, can drink the water of life, will have Bene Gesserit powers) but doesn't really go into much detail about exactly what the 'messiah' is supposed to do, it's more or less a throwaway 'mystic' term that doesn't really mean a damn thing.

It reminds me of the midichlorien debate after Episode 1. The midichloriens don't matter; they're a throwaway biological term, used to make Narrative Point 'X'. The Balance of the Force is used to make Narrative Point 'Y'.

Zanus
5 July 2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by KnightMair


The Empire rules by fear, or to put a finer point on it, have a big enough military on hand to stop any system, or group of systems, from uprising in revolt. Which is what the Old Republic did to the "Separatists." At no point in the movie were the Separatists attacking the Republic. In fact the only "threat' was never articulated was a desire to separate from the Republic. There was no mention of incursions into Republic held territory, no scenes showing the "Separatists" actually threatening the Republic in any way. Count Doku's argument to Obi Wan was very compelling, I thought they were going to have Doku actually battling Palatine for a minute there.

Ok, there was a scene where the big wigs of the 'bad guys' or separatists where talking about merging their droid armies to use against the Republic, I could be wrong, sense like most normal people I have only seen the movie once, but I do distinctly remember them saying they where going to merge their droid armies to use together. I don't think they actually talked about details during the part shown in the movie (production time constraints for the movie) but it seemed implied that they where planning to attack the republic for one reason or another, probably just to secure their worlds and the worlds they wanted and to hold them.


So, by "Balance to the Force" could it have meant "Order to the Galaxy?" At this point I don't really know what the Jedi meant. I'm not sure it can be answered, or if the whole "Balance to the Force" issue is a red herring.

That is actually an interesting point. I don't think the Jedi know what the prophesie actually means, sense they only have scant clues to work with. The original prophet who forsaw the events, storyline wise, was proly the SW equivilant of Nostridomis (have you ever read any of his actual 'prophesies'? They could be applied to any event in history if you think about it). Anyway, "Balance of the Force" could be one of those "certain points of view" things. You can look at it twenty different ways and get thirty different results.

KnightMair
8 July 2002, 07:16 AM
This from the Star Wars web site


Despite rosy recollections of a greater past, the Republic succumbed into undeniable decay. Its cumbersome bureaucracy slowed down any attempts at reform, and too many of its constituents had grown corrupt and complacent to enact any change. A feeling of disenfranchisement grew in the galaxy, particularly in outlying systems where heavy taxation was not balanced by improved services.

So the Republic was taxing the outer systems to support the core systems it seems. Even though there was no military to fund, little to no services were getting to the outer worlds. Even on the Star Wars website they never say anything about "unbridled avarice" or anything like that. All it does say is:


Count Dooku courted the massive engines of commerce in the galaxy -- institutions such as the Corporate Alliance, the Trade Federation, the Techno Union, InterGalactic Banking Clan and Commerce Guild -- with promises of reform and unyielding devotion to capitalism. In exchange, these bodies would commit their immense armies to the Separatist cause.

Hold on a second, I don't see anything about destruction, conquest, enslavement or anything, just "reforms" and "unyielding devotion to capitalism."


Capitalism
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

An economic system based on private ownership of capital
[ant: socialism]

Hmmmm.......

So, where is all the Tax money going? Why is the Republic against a free market system? Where did the money for the clone army come from?

I guess you have to spot the bad guys by the color of their hats, situations are pretty muddy now.

Long live the Empire!! ;)

Zanus
8 July 2002, 09:07 AM
what are you talking about, man? you know as well as I do that the Republic has to have that million credit hydro-spanner! and the five hundred credit refresher salve! People just can't use their imaginations anymore ;)

MadMysticMoose
31 July 2002, 06:35 PM
I think you have to take the Prophecy of Balance with a grain of salt, considering the source. The Jedi of the time became as bureaucratic and screwed-up values-wise as the Republic itself. Sure, there must be something to the prophecy because Luke redeems Vader, Vader kills Palpatine, eventually ending the New Order that Palpy had set into motion... but if the people (characters in the prequel) telling us about the prophecy didn't understand it, then how are we supposed to analyze or place any value on it? The simplest way to look at it is that Vader kills everyone, gets redeemed by his son, then kills the nutbag that was oppressing all civilization. Everything else is just extra toppings on the great galactic pizza.

Seriously. The Jedi couldn't even keep up with their own Jedi Code and ethics at the end. Case in point the Clone Wars tangent we're getting into here: "The Jedi are not creatures of morals." - Master Odan-Urr or the more canon "There is no emotion; there is peace" which has meaning on several layers - Don't act from emotion but from a state of clarity on a personal level; don't act from sentiment but to create and maintain peace on a sociological level.

If that's the case, then why take a side in the war? If thousands of systems and trade and banking guilds want to be independent... well, the Force guides us but it also allows for free will apparently. ("You must do what you think is right, of course" - Ben Kenobi) The Jedi aren't supposed to enforce morals on anyone. They even seem to know the wrongness of this in the movie, judging by their dialog (at least, Yoda and maybe Mace do). They are not supposed to be creatures of morals, but by habit they become creatures of the Republic, which is a body with morals. That is a major cock-up. They were the defenders of peace in the Republic, they were never meant to be defenders of the political body of the Republic itself. At best they should have tried to minimize the loss of life and tried to reach a peaceful solution to the conflict as quickly as possible, not choose a side and try to bash the others into submission.

So if the Jedi couldn't even follow their own Code correctly, how can we expect them to understand a prophecy correctly or explain it to us through their dialog and actions? For all we know, it could be an ancient Jedi's brownie recipe -

"Balance of the Force Brownies" Mix in the dark side (chocolate) with the light side (walnuts) and bake at 350, divide into equal parts and serve to your own special chosen one.

"What's this old text say? I can almost make it out... Balance of the Force? Light side? Dark side? Chosen One? Wow! I just found an ancient prophecy. Wait until I tell Yoda!" And thus the fate of the galaxy is decided based on a worn-out recipe for Jedi pastry.

Alright, maybe not. But the Jedi had no idea what they were doing at this point in history. So is the whole Balance of the Force thing even an issue? It could have been just a small passage in the larger real prophecy that describes Vader's fall and redemption, winding up as the 'Chosen One' to destroy the most successful Sith Lord ever. Or meant something else entirely. I think that bringing up the whole prophecy thing was meant to show that the Jedi don't have a clue any more and they are becoming superstitious, speculative, idle thinkers sitting in their tower (which is coincidentally kind of ivory looking) while everything else is decaying around them. Consider the symbolism: in a high, isolated tower in the middle of what is the most active, populated and probably morally ambiguous segment of the Republic, a bunch of 'masters' sit in comfy chairs and discuss prophecies they don't even understand themselves, oblivious to the bustle of traffic and activity going on just out the window, at the center of a galaxy that is in decay. I don't think it the Balance of the Force prophesy is the emphasis here, but the fact that they were all just sitting around discussing it instead of doing *something*. It's probably an obvious crack on the intelligensia, the so-called 'liberal elite' from Lucas' POV.

Lucas said that in the Fall of the Republic he was demonstrating his belief that 'eventually every democracy becomes a dictatorship' - at least, I would assume, if we aren't very careful. Is this an absolute? Time will tell. So in that light the Jedi might represent the educated segment of society who could bring about change but have become set in their ways and too hypothetical in their thinking to make a difference.

The Balance of the Force prophecy could be totally meaningless. OR it could be that it was a passage in another prophecy, or something else entirely, overvalued and misinterpreted over time. Who knows, maybe it's a brownie recipe. ;)

Seghast
31 July 2002, 11:09 PM
I've not read everyone's replies, so if I step on anyone's toes here, I apologize in advance...

There will be a Chosen One, and he shall bring balance to the Force... There are several different ways this could go, but in the end, it is all Yin-Yang. Good and Evil, Light and Dark.

Theory 1) The Jedi, the Light Side, has been the predominant force for thousands of years as of Episodes I and II. This is not balance; balance requires an equality of evil to counteract the good. Vader and the Emperor assume control of the galaxy, murder thousands of Jedi, and cover the galaxy in the dark shroud of evil and hatred. This brings a little more balance, because it is now the forces of good that are struggling to survive, whereas before it was the bad guys. Now, where as the dark shroud does not last nearly as long as the Jedi Order did, the very fact that the Dark Side was much more active in galatic affairs than the Jedi ever were evens things out somewhat.

Theory 2) There were thousands of Jedi for years, and always only two Sith. Then, suddenly, after the purge, there were two Sith, and two surviving Jedi. Sounds pretty balanced to me... And it was the Chosen One who created this balance, by murdering countless numbers of Jedi.

Theory 3) The Jedi embraced goodness too much. The Sith embraced evil too much. After Luke is left as the only Jedi alive, he has to rebuild the Jedi Order as he sees fit. Since his training was never fully completed, it stands to reason that he would make errors along the way as he rebuilds. There errors lead to a new form of Jedi; they embrace the light, but not so desperately that they are stripped of all emotion. They surrender to emotion, but maintain enough control to not slip into the DarkSide. This would make for a breed of "grey Jedi", Jedi who are a little of both Light and Dark. That's a form of balance, and without Anakin's murder of the bulk of the Jedi, and his fathering of Luke, this form of balance would not exist.

God knows how many other theories there are that I have left unmentioned or unthought of, but these three are the most likely ones, I believe. It would be nice if Episode III clears up the balance issue for us all, but until and unless it does, these theories will have to suffice. Or rather, they'll suffice for me, if no one else.

Valoy_Muniz
1 August 2002, 07:04 AM
I think the Vader did bring balance to the force making the Light side and the Dark side even. If you remeber the Yoda says some think like IF you become evil you will alwasy be evil. To me this means you can start good and then become evil but never the other way around. Then you have Vader. Vader starts good, then becomes pure evil and then finly becomes good agian. This is a change that by the way I understand it is not possible till then. This idea sits better with me as it also can use all the future books as well. P.S. I have never read any of the oldder books.

The Admiral
1 August 2002, 07:37 AM
The line is 'Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it consumed Vader.'

That's not the same as saying once bad always bad. Once you fall to the dark side, it will always be a factor in your life, you will always be tempted, it will always be there even if you act in the light, your destiny, whatever it may be, will always be overshadowed by the dark side.

FlipDog 2000
1 August 2002, 06:07 PM
Balance simply has to do with (and we've all read it, in all the books) the "Shroud of the Dark Side."

Tony J Case, Super Genius
6 August 2002, 06:48 AM
The thing is - prophecies are never this literal. People reading Nostradamus and expecting a recipe for the future are going to be sadly disappointed. A prophecy is always vague, open to interpretation and never quite what it seems.

Thusly, I think that the 1-1 ratio of Sith/Jedi is the wrong interpretation.

My take on the prophecy is not so much a numerical balance, but that the Jedi need to have their ass kicked. The Jedi order has become so mired in tradition and ritual to become essentially useless. They've lost touch with the common man, living in their ivory tower away from the populace (quite literally, in this case). They've become arrogant ("If the planet isn't in our records, then it must not exist") and overconfident ("The Sith have extinct for thousands of years and could not have returned without our knowing about it"). In short, they have become as ineffectual as the Republic they protect.

Anakin, through the Jedi purges, sweeps away all the baggage that holds the Jedi order back. Luke, unfettered by such things, restores the Jedi to their former effective glory - (EU, not withstanding of course. The NJO Jedi seem to be a bunch of bickering babies that cant get their act together. Mace and Yoda would have whupped Kyp's ass long ago.)

Steven Snyder
6 August 2002, 09:59 AM
Okay folks here it is, this is my grand Star Wars theory. This tid bit alone is worth your price of admission.

Anakin is destined to bring balance to the force. This is why he was created.

As you see in Episode I and II, the force was unbalanced before Anakin was born. The Sith had already put things in motion by starting the creation of the CloneTrooper army...I cannot understate the importance of this fact. Palpatine had already worked out his grand plan long before little Anakin came into the picture. But more importantly than that the Jedi were completely unable to discern these facts via the force...this is another point that you really need to keep in mind.

Jedi are remarkable in their ability of foresight, except for...
The Jedi were unable to 'see' the future when it came to Palpatine.
The Jedi were unable to 'see' the future when it came to Anakin.

Palpatine was a dark sider born before Anakin
Anakin was created to bring balance to the force
Anakin was a vergence in the force
Anakin killed Palpatine but in doing so died himself

Do you see it yet?

Palpatine was the first 'avatar' of the force, and was created by the Dark Side. He was extremely powerful in the force and the Jedi were unable to even detect him as an enemy...they were all but helpless. In response to this the Light Side of the force created their own Avatar, Anakin.

Anakin's sole purpose, his destiny was to destroy the Emperor. Anakin was equal to Palpatine in power, and so only he could defeat him. But he was not stronger than Palpatine so was destined to die in that conflict. So when the dust cleared, both Avatars were dead and balance was restored.

One could even say that Anakin lived as long as he did, despite his horrible condition, because the Light Side refused to let him die. And so he dragged on, barely clinging to life, yet strong in the force. His suit did not really keep him alive, it kept him mobile. But once he completed his destiny, the Light Side relented and allowed him to die and be at peace...This is how Luke 'saved' him.

This also explains why Palpatine wanted to keep Anakin/Vader so close to him. So he could keep control over the only true threat the galaxy had to offer. He could use his foresight to identify and plan against any danger, except for Anakin. Because Anakin was his equal, he could not kill him either, so he was force to keep him around until he could find a way to dispose of Vader. And that came in the form of Luke, one who could defeat Vader because Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son. In that final showdown, Palpatine was blind to the outcome because Anakin also clouded the future...so he was unaware of just how much the fight would cost him.

In the end, both Palpatine and Vader died. Balance had been restored. Their would be more Jedi, and of course more dark Jedi to come. But the 'avatars' of the force were gone, allowing things to continue on normally.

This has nothing to do with EU, Jedi, Sith, or anything else. This is a power struggle between the dark and light sides of the force.

Seghast
6 August 2002, 10:20 AM
Well, that was one hell of an essay.

But, I must concede that Steven has a damned good point that I never considered before, and one that most others hadn't considered, either. That's not to say he's right and anyone else is wrong; we won't know who was really correct until Episode III, if even then.

The Admiral
6 August 2002, 10:35 AM
Interesting, Steven. I'd concur that the most likely 'restoring balance' is killing Palpatine. For Balance read Harmony.

However, a lot of your theorising suggests a 'thinking Force', the Light Side does this, the Dark Side does this, the light side has a change of heart etc, which is contrary to both the things GL has said about the Force, and both real world philosophies the Force is based on (Taoism and Zen). Your arguement (though I tentatively agree with the basic conclusion) seem based on the Force being a Godhead, rather than the Cosmic Fabric it's always been based on.

The Force doesn't think, it doesn't do, it just is. The idea of Light and Dark sides are concepts used to quanitify not the Force, but the way it is used / abused.

Master Dao Rin
6 August 2002, 11:08 AM
Why was the "dark side avatar" created?

The theory is sound except when you look at its source, The Force. The avatar analogy doesn't hold a bunch a force points in this light because The Force is One, with two aspects. The Force wouldn't put itself out of balance just on the chance of the hope to be put in balance again, where the fate of its existence rests on a weak-willed being, who has already proven his failure, to make everything right again. Proof in this is that it was only his son that was able to help the Chosen One fufill his destiny ...

Nope ... Palpatine was a made man. He made himself what he is thru Force of Will alone, a evil parody of what Jedi are supposed to focus on in their training. He, in a twisted way, showed the galaxy what one person can accomplish when you put your mind to something - you can achieve the impossible - even the destruction of the Gods of the Galaxy (The Jedi).

Instead, the Jedi became increasingly arrogant, and prideful - sadly, even in the older, more experienced knights and masters at a time when they have everything going for them. They helped create the Garden of Eden, and they still partook of the Fruit with abandon and without true forethought for the consequences.

And, like in any symbiotic relationship, such as a parent-child setting - much like the Jedi sheparding the innocent beings of the galaxy - when the parent becomes arrogant and willful, so do the children. And its the children, folks, that are the future. When the children grow up to be greedy and selfish, then they teach their children to become arrogant, prideful, greedy, and selfish; an alarming forceball of destruction that feeds the Dark Side of the One Force and makes it grow to dominance over the True Nature of the Force, which is the Light Side - THE Force.

This avatar theory rests on the assumption as stated in other posts in this thread - that the Force is made up of equal halfs of Light/Dark. That is a literal interpretation of the metaphor.

There is only The Force (Light) and Its Absence (Dark), two aspects of The One, which is what I think Lucas is getting at here.

Thats my take anyway. :D

Master Dao Rin
6 August 2002, 11:20 AM
The children are our future. It was Anakin's children that overturned what he did and made everything right again, even though it was only Anakin would actually did the final and most important deed.

This is why it was important for Vader not to have or even know about his children - because the Jedi finally learned this message, that Luke and Leia would learn to be like their father if they lived with him. Thus, they were given to "proper" parents, ones who would instill goodness into the children of Anakin. Moreover, it was Luke who learned how to become a proper Jedi despite the training he received from Yoda and Ben:

(I have to help [my friends]! But you're not finished your training! [No], I've got to go to them [despite my destiny], in ESB.

And: There is good in him, I can feel it, lines as well.

Steven Snyder
6 August 2002, 12:06 PM
I know there are a few flaws with my hypothesis, but I am confident in my assessment as you are confident in yours.

I think the force is a 'thinking thing' just not on a human level. Jedi often say they can 'hear the force talking to them, guiding them' this seems hard to believe if the force was not intelligent.

There may only be 'one force', but I have a feeling it is a dichotomy of light and dark. Both sides fighting for dominance over the other, this war carries over into the realm of humans as Jedi and Sith seem to instinctively hate each other. If you look closely you will see that there is no amount of tolerance between Jedi and Sith, both wish to eradicate each other.

If Palpatine is 'just a man' then why can the Jedi not sense him. Not even master Yoda can see the danger when it is quite literally right in front of him. Yet he can watch others without problems, even Luke who he kept tabs on from Dagobah.

No, Palpatine is a vergence in the force just like Anakin. He is the unbalancing factor.

We will know for sure in a few years though...just remember you heard it here first.

The Admiral
6 August 2002, 12:12 PM
I don't think the Dark Side is the Absence of the Force, far from it, the Dark Siders use the Force quite happilly. When someone uses the Force for evil ends, that is the Dark Side. When they use it for good, that is the light side, but ultimately, the Force is neither, it's how you use it.

Oh, and just for the record, Luke failed miserably at Bespin. He went there to save his friends, and failed to do that. (They were rescued by Lando quite happilly) He confronted Vader (which he had been warned against) and was utterly defeated. Not to mention losing his lightsabre, a Jedi no-no, AND his ship. He didn't learn to be a better jedi at all, he frelled up royally. it's only due to the way he coped with his failures that he actually gets any good. Exactly how good he gets is somewhat up for debate. Sure he whacks a whole bunch of thugs, but then he gets angry enough to try and kill an unarmed man, gets angry enough again he's able to beat Vader, and then gets creamed by Bob. <shrugs>

That said, you're correct in that the father/son idiom is a pervading factor in mythic drama, and certainly it is important in Star Wars. Ultimately though, the main force of the Star Wars saga is confronting the turmoil within yourself. If you are at peace with yourself and everything else, you can do anything. Even lift starfighters from a swamp with only your wish that it be so. If, however, you are not at peace, you can do terrible terrible things.

All the flim flam in Star Wars is basically irrelevant, the story of one young man's inability to cope is expressed at the rest of the universe, yet ultimately, he is redeemed, becomes at one with himself.

in some ways that is what the Force is, the potential within each person, that if you believe in yourself, you can do anything. It's 'reality' is somewhat of a lesser issue. The Force has strong roots in Zen (though not so much Zen Buddhism, a slightly different kettle of fish) and pretty much everything said about the Force in the fiolms would be pretty much spot on the Zen way. There are stories that Zen Masters were capable of flying, throwing mountains, pretty much anything, because they were at peace with themselves and the world and that was the important thing.
Zen, incidentally, teaches that HArmony is the natural state of things, a Zen concept of restoring Balance wouldn't include light and dark aspects, it would simply be peace.

Hmm. Got carried away a bit there, mucho ramblings.

Master Dao Rin
6 August 2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Steven Snyder
If Palpatine is 'just a man' then why can the Jedi not sense him. Not even master Yoda can see the danger when it is quite literally right in front of him. Yet he can watch others without problems, even Luke who he kept tabs on from Dagobah.

No, Palpatine is a vergence in the force just like Anakin. He is the unbalancing factor.

I think this bit has more to due with the nature of the Dark Side rather than the nature of the Force. Apparently, the Dark Side "clouds everything", which makes sense, since its "darkness".

An analogy I like to use is the Dark Side = a black hole, and the Light Side is everything that isn't a black hole. The Black Hole sucks all matter into it, even Light (The Force).

What I meant to say with Palpatine is that Palpatine succeeded in learning the Ways of the Force (albeit, the Dark Side) much more thoroughly and completely than all the other Jedi with the exception of Yoda and Ben. He "got" the idea of the Force, although the twisted version, and used it to "accomplish whatever you set your mind to" as the poster above refers to.

Whereas, on the other hand, the Jedi during the final days of the Republic didn't understand this fully, not even Mace, and hence they succumbed to the rot and corruption as did the rest of the galaxy.

Only Yoda (and Ben) survived, because they had some extra perception about the Force all the other Jedi didn't, the polar opposite of Palpatine's own understanding of the Force. But I don't see Palpatine as being an "Anti-Anakin" at all. He strikes me as the most simple "hero" of all the heroic characters in the Star Wars Saga, with the possible exception of Boba/Jango Fett.

But, as you say, only time will tell. :)

Master Dao Rin
6 August 2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by The Admiral
I don't think the Dark Side is the Absence of the Force, far from it, the Dark Siders use the Force quite happilly. When someone uses the Force for evil ends, that is the Dark Side. When they use it for good, that is the light side, but ultimately, the Force is neither, it's how you use it.

Exactly. And how you use it is either The Force (The Light Side), or annihilating it in someway (The Dark Side). Life creates The Force (Light Side), so the Dark Side must therefore destroy It and the Dark Side does that by destroying Life.

As I stated above, I prefer to think of the Dark Side as a vaccuum, of black hole if you will, a void of emptiness where the The Force cannot exist. Or, more precisely, by destroying the very essence of existence, a user of the Dark Side fuels their "cause" and also their power by taking Life Essence and annihilating it, ala a matter and anti-matter analogy. But this anti-matter is not a whole other particle - its the result of what happens when you crush life outta existence by taking two "Life particles" and mashing them together thereby destroying both and creating a void, the resulting energy of which is what the Jedi have termed "The Dark Side".

In a Yin-Yang symbology, I prefer to focus on the circle that the two halves make, rather than focus on the two halves of the circle. In this same way, I think the Force is also like that. The Force is the Force, and the way you use it determines whether you use the Light Side or the Dark.

In Zen, it is the sound of one hand clapping. :D

The Admiral
7 August 2002, 02:09 AM
I'm a great proponent of metaphor.
I've spent year upon year studying the various philosophies and religions from all over the world, throughout time. The thing that really sticks in my mind is that, basically, every philosophy and religion are basically the same. At their root, they consist of 'Be nice to people' and 'there is a greater thing than this mundane world'. Pretty much every philosophy and religion have this as their base core. Pretty much everything else is either People management (the do's and don't's of the current social more, handy tips on food safety, that kind of thing) and metaphor (a whole bunch of labels, stories etc designed to make the fundamentals clear).
An awful lots of pain, suffering and death had happened because people have a tendency to take the metaphor literally.

The Force is exactly the same. it fits the mould of every religion / philosophy we've ever come up with in the real world. 'Be nice to people', 'there is a greater thing than this mundane world'. It also has it's metaphor, so it can be understood better. The Light Side, the Dark Side, Good, Evil. These are basically labels used by people to understand more esoteric concepts, and are codes of conduct established to maintain the social mores of the day. On a fundamental level, destroying Alderaan is in opposition of 'be nice to people'. Things that violate that code are labelled 'evil' and 'the dark side'. On that level, Din Rao, I take your point that the dark side is about destroying life (and thereby, yes, diminishing the creation of the Force) but Vader, Maul, Sidious, and Tyrannus USE the Force to dark side ends. It's self destructive, they are destroying what they are using, but that in itself is typical of pretty much all of the real world religion / philosophies. If you break the 'be nice to people' law, ultimately, you hurt yourself more than others.

I think what I'm saying is that Steve Synder and Master Din Rao, is you have each to a greater or lesser extent, attached your own metaphors to the Force, that help you understand and percieve it. That's cool, I mean whatever rocks your boat. I personally keep in a lot more basic than that, sticking to the fundamentals, as it were.

That's the main reason why the Force works as well as it does, from a storytelling point of view, it resonates the world over because it's the exact same core belief as the vast majority of human beings on this planet. It doesn't have the labels, so it works for everyone. The deification of the Force sticks in my gullet mainly because the majority of people in the world don't see it that way. (That there is a single unifying deity)

Master Dao Rin
7 August 2002, 12:17 PM
I think I'm saying exactly what you're saying Admiral.

All the Dark Side equals is the use of the Force for evil. Its taking the Light Side (as it were, since LS=Force) and twisting it to evil purposes, and in the process destroying it. Thus, thats the essence of the Dark Side.

For example, Force Lightning is nothing more than ripping the Life Force outta of the victim you are perpetrating it on, and dispersing it into the void. The only benefit the Dark Sider gets is the tiny rush of excess energy that "jumps" back to the intiator, which we see as a physical real quantity in the form of "lightning". At least, thats one way I can "explain" it, if it was necessary to explain.

Btw, any reason you reversed the capitals in my handle? :D

The Admiral
7 August 2002, 12:26 PM
I could see that kinda working for Force Lightning, but it wouldn't cover things like Vader's chucking stuff about, and bouncing stuff off Luke's bonce wouldn't ordinarily come under the heading of 'good'. Nor does it cover the various Sith using their lightsabres, which explicitly use the Force. The bad guys do manipulate the Force in much the same way as the good guys do, though to evil ends. So I think your model of the dark forces being kinda 'removing' the Force doesn't hold, really.

And yes, there is a reason for adjusting your name, but it's, er, mystical. Yeah. :-)

Master Dao Rin
9 August 2002, 11:13 AM
Dark Siders aren't necessarily ALWAYS drawing on the Dark Side, just like Light Siders aren't always using the Force for good.

If they are just force chucking things around, then its the "normal" Force just like any other Jedi uses.

scottyboy
9 August 2002, 11:26 AM
Ok, this is the first time that I've read this thread, so bear with me. If I say anything that has already been said, sorry! I only had time to read the first post. What if it's not even Luke who's supposed to bring balance to the Force. What if it's one of Luke's kids, or one of his grandchildren, or just one of his descendants? What if it's something that comes into being thousands of years after Luke, but has the Skywalker bloodline. That's the way that I like to look at it at least. Cause that means that Star Wars will last forever! And I'm sure that everyone can appreciate that concept!!!

Zanus
9 August 2002, 12:49 PM
Interesting thought, Scottyboy, I have had similar thoughts, but I don't think Lucas would make such a big deal about a prophecy that Anakin could fullfill in the movies if it was going to actually occur many many generations from Anakin (assuming his lineage lasted that long).

As for the "Dark side is the lack of the force" notion. I have to agree with Admiral on this (ironically enough). From what I have read, the Dark side corrupts its users to destroy in some way, be it overtly or covertly, if you follow. Basically a dark side user would simply crush a pretty flower, or set plans in motion to cause a pestillance to come in and devour the flower.

In one of the books, they talk about how the dark side is self defeating. Since the Force is derived from life, and the dark side is about destroying life, it basically is trying to destroy itself, which is why it is weaker. A building cannot stand if it crushes its own foundation.

The Dark Side is of the force, not a lack of it. The intent of your usage of the force determins what part of the force you are drawing on. if you are throwing things around for the sake of throwing things around, then it is teetering close to the grey area, but in my oppinion you are drawing ont he dark side, since you are doing something just to do it, with no other purpose.

Now, ifyou are moving things around to help in some way, well, then you are still kinda in the grey area. You could proly just as easily move things by hand without the use of the force (unless it is really heavy or large).