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wolverine
26 August 2000, 08:31 PM
Ok, i had this come up in 2 gaming sessions of starwars at GENCON.

For a brief backround. Sparks/Game base 7 are the ones who run the starwars at gnecon, and they have their own house rules, campaign modules, equipment etc.. One of the more popular is a drink called BLUE STUFF. This blue liquid is highly flamable and potent. A quarter of a pint can drop a full size wookie.

Now on to the questions.

In the fiest of the 2 sessions, i threw a fullsize military water canteen, full of the stuff at a dark jedi, who (stupidly) used his lightsaber to 'parry it". As the bottle got cut we broke for a half hour food break, while the DM consulted with other dm's to get a sort of consencus on what would happen. The gist is:
1) Is a lightsaber capable of igniting things?
2) If so, would it have done so to this liquid??????

Jedi_Shadow
26 August 2000, 09:18 PM
In that situation, I'd say the lightsaber would ignite it. A disfigured dark Jedi with revenge on his mind is also a great factor in your adventures.

Though, if you decide that lightsabers ignite things they touch, you run into problems. If a Jedi is using the lightsaber to cut his way through a thick forest or jungle, I'd hate to see every tree up in flames. If lightsabers ignited things, Luke would have had a flaming stump for an arm, and not just a cauterized stump.

wolverine
27 August 2000, 01:07 AM
True, but think, trees and other folage are usually damp (which retards flamability). An explosive liquid is made to BURN!!! (sorry the pyro in me came out for a minuite).....

Kayle Skolaris
27 August 2000, 02:05 AM
One of the lightsabre practice techniques in Fragments From the Rim is to light candles with one's sabre without harming the candles themselves. So according to WEG, yes, a sabre can ignite flammables.

cableboy
27 August 2000, 04:53 AM
Okay, the lightsaber may not ignite all things, but when it cuts though objects, it should generate heat, depending on the items density, so, cutting through flesh and wood causes enough heat to cauterize, but not enough to burn.


Cutting through metal can produce LOTS of heat, but doesnt really ignite, youd have to hope the amount of heat produced exceeds the flash point of the liquid. which it probably would.

so, in otherwords, the liqid or the candles have enough density to set themselves on fire.

Craig Feely
27 August 2000, 05:22 AM
Yes, I believe that you are all correct, however, as for the question about Luke having a 'flaming stump' instead of a cauterized stump brings up another point. Lightsabers DO cauterize. Which means that when a lightsaber cuts through something living such as Human tissue or even a tree as mentioned before, it cauterizes the 'wound' and closes it up.

As for non-living substances, take TPM for a prime example. When Qui-Gon is doing his best to cut through a blast door with his lightsaber, the door is heated and seemingly begins to melt. It is almost as if the door only 'caught fire' in a small cone the diameter of the lightsaber itself.

As for the candle-the density theory may be correct, but in my games I tend to stick to my living/non-living theory. So if a PC in my game were attempting to perform this maneuver, he would 'catch fire' to whatever the saber touched--that is non-living. For example, if a PC swung and their lightsaber was high enough to only touch the wick of the candle, then the wick would catch fire. However, if the PC were to miss and their swing was too low, then the candle would be sliced off as normal and the entire candle itself woudn't be set afire.

This is just my thoughts on the subject-questions? contridictions? I'd like to hear from you.

cableboy
27 August 2000, 10:58 AM
yes, i see your point BUT the blast door did not burn, it <I>melted</I> because of the high density of the metal. now if we think about it, the blast doors are extrmely durable, holding off anything short of direct turbolazer fire. now, if thelightsaber Really put out that much heat all the time, the heat radiating from it would kill the user just by turning it on. so it does have to do with density.

and the fact that it cauterizies is a given, because you cauterize things with HEAT which is provided when you cut the arm in the first place.

Kayle Skolaris
27 August 2000, 06:31 PM
I believe one of the side effects of direct physical contact with a lightsabre is increased brownian motion. For those of you who haven't hit that part of High School physics, browning motion is the movement of molecules in matter. If the motion is slow, things are cold. The brownian motion in ice, for instance, is much slower than that in water. Conversely, if the motion is high, things heat up and eventually melt or vaporize. Thus extreme levels of brownian motion in water produces steam. When a lightsabre is swung at something it superheats whatever it touches the instant it comes into contact with it. So a candle wick lights, the stump of an arm cauterizes, and when thrust violently into a blast door and twisted (Qui-Gonn seemed to be twisting and exerting significant physical effort) the doors melt. Notice that the superheating of the air around the sabre would be localized to the actual blade, and not the surrounding area. Thus a wielder can use the blade without frying himself. Also, the nature of the effect must be local to the blade itself and whatever is in actual physical contact with that blade. The handle suffers no thermal effects even though it projects the blade. This is proven when Luke loses his sabre in the Wampa's cave on Hoth. When the sabre hits the ground, going out in the process, it doesn't melt any of the snow around it. If the handle or even the emittor bell were affected by the thermal effects of contact with the sabre the snow around that area would surely have been immediately affected.

So, in gameplay, this means that a sabre can cause items in DIRECT CONTACT with the blade to ignite, melt, or vaporize depending on the substance. Paper would ignite while water would boil or turn to steam. Blast doors obviously melt on contact with sabre blades. As proven in The Phantom Menace, sabre blades DO interact with force fields, so if nothing else that solves a long-standing question in MY campaigns. Whatever other potential effects of a sabre's blade are up to the individual GM although I STRONGLY suggest that an upper limit be placed on what a sabre can potentially damage. Cutting open the belly of a Walker is one thing, cleaving the nose off an ISD is quite another and is within the range of potential damage for a powerful Force User (consider, Palpatine as of Dark Empire had a Control of 15D+2. Add in his lightsabre damage of 5D for a total of 20D+2 against the scale adjusted hull of 27D+2 for the Eclipse and you begin to see potential problems. Gods forbid he use a force point!).

cableboy
28 August 2000, 05:18 AM
YES!! true. but there is one problem... laightsabers dont boil water. they short out.

Digital Ruse
28 August 2000, 06:47 AM
They only short out if the hilt gets wet not the blade...

Remember the blade isn't solid with energy traveling down it. It extends from the hilt so as long as the hilt is high and dry the sabre should, be okay.

Neogamer

Grimace
28 August 2000, 10:28 AM
That's true, Neogamer. I seem to remember something, somewhere, that talked about a lightsaber blade contacting water and causing intense steam. Though I can't back this up with actual location, I do believe I read it somewhere.

Additionally it would be kinda silly if, everytime it rained, Jedi's had to stop fighting evil. :)

Jedi_Shadow
28 August 2000, 01:13 PM
That would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? ;)

cableboy
29 August 2000, 07:18 AM
well, they could wrap their lightsaber hilts in plastic baggies, then they dont have to worry about it. and when they fight the sith, they can do it in the rain, and the sith, being idiots, wont think of it, and will fritz out thier lightsaber in battle

Jedi_Shadow
29 August 2000, 07:35 AM
I actually think lightsabers will work in rain, unless it's really pouring, then they better move inside. I think submersion in water (or whatever else) is required to short out a lightsaber.

S'funny, we went from talking about flammability to waterproofing. :)

wolverine
29 August 2000, 09:16 AM
If water submersion shorted them out, then Mara jade could not have done what she did in Visions of the future....

Remember, she went under water to cut the cloning tank (or atleast that is how i remember it)...

Moff Neomen
29 August 2000, 10:31 AM
I believe a rule for underwater combat in Secrets of the Sisar run sourcebook said that lightsabers boil the water around them, making them dance all over the place and be hard to use. Therefore, I would assume that lightsabers can be used underwater, if their handles are waterproofed.

I kind of see lightsabers as big cigarette lighters in cars. ;)

Jedi_Shadow
29 August 2000, 12:07 PM
...and Obi-Wan's simply wasn't waterproofed. Okay, that works.

Zak'irek
29 August 2000, 06:53 PM
It certainly does, because Qui-Gon's lightsaber also gets a little wet. When Jar Jar jumps on him and they both fall down it is into a puddle of water. Perhaps his light saber didn't get wet, this is entirely possiblt, but if it did then it was unaffected. But consider that both of the lightsabers get absolutely soaked when they travel to Ota Gunga. That doesn't seem to matter one bit to either Jedi's lightsaber when they are next ignited. There is a lot of time passed between the drenching and the ignition however. Indicating that some time could have perhaps been taken to fix them both and make sure they are working. I believe it was more likely that at the point in time when Obi-Wan tried to ignite his Saber, it simply didn't work. The force moves in mysterious ways and a 1 is rolled on a d6 1 in 6 times.

Life is so complicated sometimes.

Also remember in Empire Strikes Back when Luke goes to Degobah he wades waist height through swamp water and seemingly has no problems with his fathers light saber. Reasons for this could be that it just didn't get damaged from the water. Think of it, Annikin wouldn't have survived that long if he wasn't so good at building things. And also, Yoda was there, if need be, he could have easily fixed it. Perhaps he did just that, after all, Luke was knowledgeable about the repair and make of the things enough to make one of his own. Perhaps he had some off camera training in lightsaber construction and repair?

[Edited by Zak'irek on 29 August 2000 at 10:58 PM]

Jedi_Shadow
29 August 2000, 07:53 PM
Another possible idea is that once the lightsabers dry out they're okay. The Jedi wouldn't have to worry about fixing them, just that they were dry.

Also, the relevant cut scene is when Obi-Wan was 'debarking' from the carrier ship by slicing a hole in the bottom and dropping to Naboo's surface. Unfortunately, he landed in a small pond with his lightsaber still ignited. When he emerged from the water, a STAP closed in on him. When he noticed his lightsaber wasn't working, young Kenobi ran.

Another theory of mine is that a lightsaber is okay underwater unless it is ignited. It's my feeling that the Jedi's lightsabers are perfectly functional after their little swim to Otoh Gunga.

Blaster Magnet
16 September 2000, 09:18 PM
Luke used his lightsaber underwater in <i>Splinter of the Mind's Eye</i> to cut some water plant up, and it worked. Most likely, it is that construction of the blade that effects how it responds to water, much as some electrical equipment is weatherproof and some is not.

Back on the subject of flammability, a lightsaber creates and intense heat (thats how is does damage), but it is extremely localized, somehow the blade is heated without the air around it becoming hot. Luke notices in the novelization of star wars that the lightsaber gave off no heat when he activated it.

Ronin
20 September 2000, 01:14 AM
I've also heard that sabres are harder to use underwater, but that source WAS pre-TPM (in which we're told not to submerse them in water unless their powered-down or something...).
As for flamability: they do cauterise, so maybe if you hold the blade 'on'/near the material it would eventually light.
As for rain: sabres are pretty hot, I'd say they just vapourise the rain, if it was REAL heavy you might need to power it down.....?

Generic Jedi
29 September 2000, 08:26 AM
Why does everyone assume that a Jedi will have a 5D
damage code for a lightsaber?

I rolled to determine which gem (which gives the damage) they found/had. Made more sense.

If a Lightsaber is more about focus and meditation than
a pure death and destruction, no Jedi would use the
5D gems unless it was given to them.
Price is rated at 100,000 creds in most places you look.

They could buy 4 YT-1300's and oodles of decent mods for
them with that kind of money. Just as an example of
course. No template starts with 100,000+ in equipment,
and with all the Jedi bashing I read, it makes even
less sense. Plus with adding your sense/control dice
to the combat makes the difference minimal.

Ohh, and I was thinking about something else today regarding
lightsabers...

What do other gamemasters do, say, if a player wants to
cut through a bulkhead of a cap ship or something.
Deny the opportunity, or have little happen unless they
have really high force skills to back the damage up?

Ronin
29 September 2000, 03:16 PM
As for damage, we allow Jedi to improve their sabres, but you don't want your sabre out of action or in for repairs 'cause you got a one on your 'Lightsabre Repair' wild die!
And as for cutting thru. bulkheads; I guess you could allow it, since your sabre's damage can be mightily increased by control, though a nasty (sane?) GM would say the bulkhead/armour was thicker than the sabre....then you're screwed. :)

barna284
30 September 2000, 07:06 PM
This is the best site I've seen around the net dedicated to Lightsabers. It is an EXTENSIVE study on this weapon. Tka e look...

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

wolverine
4 April 2003, 07:54 AM
Any new thoughts on this pertenant question?

What if it was a bag of gunpowder (or even a barrel) instead of a flask of flamable liquid) that the dark jedi 'stupidly' decided to cut at???

Ace Calhoon
4 April 2003, 08:52 AM
The answer depends entirely on who you ask, this topic lacks consistancy in Star Wars lore.

According to some sources, the blade of a lightsabre produces no heat. If that's the case it wouldn't ignite things.
However, in Episode I we see Qui-Gon's 'sabre "melting" through a blast door. If it melts metal, it would ignite alcohol or gun powder.
Finally, I've read somewhere (don't remember where unfortunately :( ) that Qui-Gon had a specially modified lightsabre that actually produced heat... Which sounds like a last second story fix to me :-P

End result, it really is up to the GM. Kinda helps role play the fact that your character probably doesn't know much about 'sabres :)

Jedi Master Talon
4 April 2003, 09:50 AM
I'd say yes it would but I haven't run into a situation where that happened. My guess it would if it was thrown at you but if it was on the ground no but that's my guess.

Jedi_Staailis
4 April 2003, 10:31 AM
For the ignition question, I think Kayle Skolaris has the best explanation. The lightsaber clearly imparts energy to objects (from TPM). Thus, the same thing will happen when the lightsaber contacts any other material. Note that if you slash through thick foliage, you're dealing with short strikes and a lot of water, which has a very high specific heat capactiy. So, just like a flame and a piece of wet wood, you'd have to hold the saber to the plant until it dried then eventually began to burn. The reason you can cut through the plants is that the lightsaber also seems to have other damaging properties besides heat. It displays characteristics of being "sharp," for example.

On waterproofing, I would say the only way to resolve all of the contradictions is to say that some sabers are waterproofed and some aren't. Even sabers that aren't waterproofed don't seem to suffer permanent harm from immersion (Obi-Wan's) and can tolerate small amounts of water (there's a Jedi Outcast level in which Kyle fights in light rain. If the player decsends into a pool of water, the saber shorts and can only be reignited after the player leaves the water (apparenlty Kyle's saber is a little more short protected than Obi-Wan's). The rain, however, seems to have no effect on Kyle's saber, aside from drops fizzing and steaming when they hit the blade.).

Jaggard
4 April 2003, 10:41 AM
actually I've recent come across referances to something called cold plasma. which might be what the lightsabers are made of. It requires charging a gas like nitrogen, forming a plasma though at room temperature and fairly weak and constricting it's flow makeing it brighter and more concentrated. The cold plasmas they can currently make you can pass your hand through without harm but wouldn't want to hold it there too long. It seems its the charge in the plasma stream that converts into heat energy. They say if you put something in there it can be used to steralize it. and supposedly they are working on a system that would cloak a ship in this plasma because it can absorb (or was it neutralise) energy from detection systems like rader and may even work as sheilds against microwave and emp blasts (sounds like deflecting blasters). This is the best I can remember from the data at this time but definately sound very cool.

Tossk
5 April 2003, 02:24 PM
Where did you find out about this Cold Plasma?

It sounds quite promising to me!;) :D

Jaggard
5 April 2003, 06:42 PM
do a google search, I only book marked one source http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/constricted-plasma.html
it's very intresting If you manage to build one send me a plan. I'm currently pondering it myself. But Have been side tracked by several other projects. Makeing blasters (actually ball lightning may lead to the key of that), writing, injection molding plastic, and the article in discover magazine about devices that print out human cells on a deskjet and the stem cells begin to recognise what form to take (which could lead to organs being made easily for those that need them) and a device that breaks anything (plastic, computers, sewage, garbage, turkey guts ect.) with carbon in it down into oil; gas; water; coal and mineral deposites. The last one sounds almost like alchemy but it works the same way the earth does it but fast and intentionally.
Looking at things like these gets my creative side all excited. We seem to be on the edge of a plathora of amazing tech. I can't help but wonder if the people who use cold plasma even realise the potential for lightsaber aplications of their tech. I mean even small scale you get a scalpel which steralises itself and might cauterise bloodvessels while shedding light and being transparent so it can be seen through. Or as a tool in the tool box. Admittedly I don't know enough to be sure these things are possible but what if? At least these things are already in the prototype stages (eccept blasters and sabers) unlike Nano tech; I still think that would be cool but it's gonna take at least 50 years.
Gotta love tech.
But back on topic, I'm not sure but since water is broken into hydrogen and oxegen when electric currents pass through it a highly energised plasma could break up water and if it can ignite things (though i'm not sure cold plasma would do it) you'd be actually burning water.

Tossk
5 April 2003, 06:57 PM
I like to relate sabers to microwaves. Microwaves won't do crap to the air, but stick metal in it, and POOF!!! you've got something going on! sabers, of course, are a diferent wavelenght intirely, but basicly need to come in contact with something to do anything.;)

Jace Aleron
5 April 2003, 11:23 PM
I tend to think Lightsabers do create localized heat like almost everybody's been saying. but in regards to the original question, I'm not sure weather the liquid would ignite or not, I think it would but at the same time it would put it's self out, like if you toss a match into a barrel of gasoline, since it's a liquid it puts itself out, it's the fumes that combust. But it would basically be a DM call on it. I know I'd probably say no if it happened in one of my games

Vanger Chevane
6 April 2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Tossk
Where did you find out about this Cold Plasma?

It sounds quite promising to me!;) :D

There's a pretty serious discussion of what a lightsabre could be here. (http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres4.htm)

It's somewhat heavy on the science, but still quite an interesting read, IMHO.


BTW Tossk, Microwaves are a wee bit different.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME One can usually safely microwave a metal spoon, but nuking a fork will make it shoot sparks from its tines.

Tossk
6 April 2003, 09:19 AM
I know they're different, but it works for my messed up little nogin.

I've read that a few times and I totally agree with their conclusion. :P

BTW I love plasma... :D

Reel 2/Dialogue 2
6 April 2003, 05:19 PM
As a general rule, I also tend to think of lightsabers as having extremely focused energy, to the point where no visibly detectable heat is emitted or seen (except by using infra-red scans* ). Only extremely flammable materials are subject to ignition, and even so, in the case of tossing said materials at wielders, it would only ignite at the blade area, thus not causing an area effect (and thus preventing hordes of villains from using molotov cocktails as weapons against Jedi). Plus, any less flammable materials are affected in such a localized manner as to burn simply at the area of a saber blade (Qui-Gon had to twirl and turn his blade, and create an area, to cut through the Trade Fed blast door). This, in turn, prevents the lightsaber from turning into an all-purpose Swiss army knife, which just ain't elegant for such an ancient weapon (such as igniting a campfire or heating a pot of stew).

As for waterproofing, I guess I can go with that in terms of submergibility, but only if the lightsaber is mastercrafted. Otherwise, I tend to believe that since a saber's metallic hilt doesn't retain water, activation can be instantaneous outside of a submerged state. I mean, check out Obi-Wan vs. Jango on Kamino... Kenobi got to use his blade, and thassa lotta watta!


* actually, I'm not really fixed in this instance... does anyone have any idea to the contrary?

Reel 2/Dialogue 2
6 April 2003, 05:35 PM
Only extremely flammable materials are subject to ignition, and even so, in the case of tossing said materials at wielders, it would only ignite at the blade area, thus not causing an area effect

Actually, got to thinking about this a little more. Let's say that, instead of dioxsis, the Neimoidians covered the waiting room with petroxsis (monoxide petrol fumes), just as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan ignited their sabers. If an extremely flammable vapor were to have an area effect, Naboo would be in a serious hoit due to two charcoaled "ambassadors".

So, all you Younglings and Padawans beware... study your gases (hey hey hey, I heard you laughing, Liam... I'm serious!).


PS: I pretty much figure, as another RPG general rule, the tougher it is to create a hazardous situation, the more likely it can occur. Anybody can throw a molotov at a Jedi, but not just anybody can fill a room with Industrial Age vapors!

Durian Keldrona
6 April 2003, 07:44 PM
dioxin not dioxis

Crymoon
6 April 2003, 11:49 PM
I think that if we combine what Craig Feely said here (http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=849) with [b}Kayle Skolaris [/b] post below it and with Net.Guide to Lightsaber construction (http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/entry.php?s=&id=588) then what will have is an waterproof (if correctly made) lightsaber that cuts through most things but ignites the explosives that can be ignited by heat.

Throwing an easily flammable liquid or powder at a Jedi would require quick thinking... if he is just a hack-and-slash Jedi or Sith let him suffer... Force push would neatly deal with this problem...

Go-Get Beer
7 April 2003, 01:29 AM
1. I'd say he'd have to have an action readied to use Force Push against any incoming object. A Jedi can try to deflect an attack with his 'sabre as a reaction, if I remember correctly.

2. Cutting any incoming object with a lightsabre is foolish. The ability to deflect such an attack would be limited, since the blade would cut through the canteen with little to no resistance, delivering only a small amount of kinetic energy, maybe not diverting its course at all. (Luke tries to parry stuff DV sends at him in Cloud City control room, though). A nice touch to have an enraged darksider cut it in his rage.

3. AFAIK even a very flammable spirit doesn't burn itself, just its fumes, if and when they have access to oxygen. Since I assume the canteen was closed/shut/corked only a small amount of gases would have built up inside the canteen, depending on how full it was. Only if the lightsabre blade went through the gas pocket could it ignite them.

4. Is flame an energy attack and if so could you use Dissipate Energy to avoid damage from it?

If I were the GM in your session you'd most probably have a furious Dark Jedi standing in a pool of alcohol, drenched in this stuff. There are some ways to ignite him (lighting a cigarette and throwing a match into the pool, "Burn, baby, burn" etc.) which would warrant a DSP, IMO. Also fighting him in close combat with any sort of energy weapon could prove interesting. More choices for players, more fun for the GM. :D

Crymoon
7 April 2003, 01:36 AM
I'm blessed to have such an GM Go-Get Beer ... :D
And welcome on the board... hope you like it...

And now to lightsabers:
What if we had an explosive that can be ignited by heat, not just a strong spirit but a real mean let say black powder?

Go-Get Beer
7 April 2003, 02:04 AM
Most explosives I know of detonate instead of burning, delivering enough oxygen for them to do so. I'd imagine you'd be able to detonate any heat-sensitive explosive with a lightsabre. The question is: would you want to?

Crymoon
7 April 2003, 02:17 AM
Depends if I am the one holding the lightsaber... but for sure I'd like to know if I can do it or not.

wolverine
7 April 2003, 03:05 AM
Intewesting... Werry intewesting. (i tout i taw a putty tat)...

reliant
7 April 2003, 04:48 PM
Although many many others have given their opinion on this, I just figured I'd toss in my two creds as well...

First of all, I think that there is plenty of evidence that supports the theory that lightsabers do burn things (or at least that they're hot). The door on the trade ship melting, the smoking railing on cloud city, the smoke coming off of luke's severed sleeve after vader cut it (and his hand) off, and lets not forget all the glowing red droids after being chopping in half by sabers in episode 1 and 2.

With that in mind, I'd have to say that if you tossed a molotov coctail at a dark jedi and he was stupid enough to try and parry it, he'd be in a world of hurt. Ditto for the jedi who tries to parry the powder keg, or stick of dynamite, or whatever other heat/fire activated explosive mixture you toss at him.

Also, I wouldn't want to be the Jedi to try and cut through the side of a gas tanker, or a natural gas line. If it happened in my game, I'd have to rule that fire/explosions would ensue...

I guess all gas stations in the future have signs that say "Warning: Stop Engine, No Smoking, No Ignited Lightsabers" :D

Crymoon
7 April 2003, 11:43 PM
reliant I'm sorry for one thing... that you don't live in Poland and ain't my GM.. I like your rulings :D

i like them because if we don't make them like that the lightsabers will become all powerfull cutting tools which anybody will try to use without any consideration why and how... And they should be an elegant weapon not just an axe...

Reel 2/Dialogue 2
8 April 2003, 10:09 AM
With that in mind, I'd have to say that if you tossed a molotov coctail at a dark jedi and he was stupid enough to try and parry it, he'd be in a world of hurt. Ditto for the jedi who tries to parry the powder keg, or stick of dynamite, or whatever other heat/fire activated explosive mixture you toss at him.

Agreed, but to prevent game abuse, perhaps such an effect should be left to a crit hit or wild die (depending on your D-preference). There's almost nothing as annoying as a squad of villains (or even PCs) armed with rudimetnary pipebombs, prep-aiming at ignited lightsabers (regardless of whether it is used in defense) every time a Jedi (or Sith) shows up.


Also, I wouldn't want to be the Jedi to try and cut through the side of a gas tanker, or a natural gas line. If it happened in my game, I'd have to rule that fire/explosions would ensue...

NOW that's a Force warrior who's just asking for the hoit. Automatic is automatic.

(now... where to find that '76 or Exxon gas station on Ord Mantell...)


dioxin not dioxis

Ya sure? Hmm... Robin, to the Phantom Menace DVD!

Durian Keldrona
8 April 2003, 10:11 AM
In my opinion Lightsabres are not hot. But much like microwaves are not hot. that doesnt mean they don't produce heat when you hit something with them. This would satisfy the fact that the Blast door melted when Qui Gon stuck his lightsabre in the blastdoor. What would happen if you threw a molotov cocktail at the jedi and parried with his lightsabre? Jedi Flambeu. Because the interaction between the blade and the container would ignite the fuel. let alone the interaction of the fuel and the blade.

so blade isnt hot blade with other stuff creates a lot of heat.

reliant
8 April 2003, 10:33 AM
Agreed, but to prevent game abuse, perhaps such an effect should be left to a crit hit or wild die (depending on your D-preference). There's almost nothing as annoying as a squad of villains (or even PCs) armed with rudimetnary pipebombs, prep-aiming at ignited lightsabers (regardless of whether it is used in defense) every time a Jedi (or Sith) shows up.

First thing I'd do to avoid this problem would be to set the difficulty to hit an ignited lightsaber really high (maybe a 30?). A lightsaber blade would certainly not be an easy thing to hit with a molotov coctail (or pipebomb). Plus, you have to assume that the saber is moving (I've not seen very many jedi that stand like a statue when combat starts). If you wanted to balance it more towards the Jedi, then you could give him a reflex save to yank his saber out of the way.

So assuming they toss it at the Jedi instead (only having to beat his/her defense) then I'd give the Jedi a reflex save to dodge (half damage if they succeed). This would only apply to the molotov coctail or pipe bomb or something that's going to explode either way - otherwise it's just a ranged attack on them which they don't get to dodge. In the case mentioned in the original question, I'd just assign some damage to a thrown bottle of booze (it wouldn't explode unless parried).

As long as they're not using "lightsaber defense" then I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that they're not stupid enough to parry the bottle of explosive with their burning blade of energy...

On the other hand, if they ARE using lightsaber defense, then I'd make them roll a will save to NOT automatically deflect the explosive item in question with their saber. If they fail the save they try and deflect the incoming object (and probably get toasted).

Another thing you could do would be to make a percentile role on whether or not the stuff catches fire (assuming it comes in contact with the blade). You could assign different substances different numbers - like the super flamable booze would have a 90% chance or something, but diesel fuel would be around 30% since it's not as flammable. The problem with this is that you'd have to figure out how flammable everything is and then try and assign a number to it...

Dr_Worm
8 April 2003, 01:10 PM
I think this is just too cool not to work. If it happend in may game I would allow it and give an XP bonus for it. I would also quickly allow the Dark Jedi to dissipate/drain the heat from the flame so as to make this a cool but short lived victory. Great for a get away though.

As far as underwater goes WEG had clear rues for that: They super heat the water and end up bucking in your hand. They require a strength or control check just to hold, let alone use for attack.

Tossk
8 April 2003, 02:48 PM
Moltov cocktails don't bust, they spread; so only an explosive would really apply, like black powder! :D This is thie chink in a jedi's armor... YAY!!!! I wouldn't attempt to hit his blade, but him, since he'll move the blade to meet it, doing some work for me!;) Durian, I totally agree with your statement, that was what I was thrying to say, but my communications skills lack from time to time....;)

Crymoon
8 April 2003, 10:49 PM
Let him burn!!!!! All you Pirates out there having troubles with Jedis arm yourselve with Molotovs..!!! No longer will we live in fear!! :D

I just hope that they won't Force push them back on us and ignite by throwing a lightsaber.... But hey, that would be EVIL... :P

wolverine
9 April 2003, 04:25 AM
Even on the jedi that this worked on, the most i got out of it was a few rounds of 'blindness'. Even that 'super-flamable- alcohol bottle only did 4d damage.

But for or group that was all we needed.

And thanks for all the idea's and answers.

Ardent
9 April 2003, 09:32 AM
<evil GM thoughts>

Throwing lightsabers...mmm...explosions...mmm...

Actually, I'd have to agree that lightsaber blades emit heat, but I think the heat is contained within the blade itself. So while there's no real heat emanating from the blade itself, once you step inside the blade (not recommended) you're going to be looking at one nasty burn...EXCEPT that the blade is so hot it instantly cauterizes the wound. Which actually makes lightsabers and blasters somewhat more civilized weapons than slugthrowers (unless you want a ballistics and ballistic-related medicinal lecture, don't ask)...

Hm....<more evil GM thoughts> field cauterization using a lightsaber. Man, my players are gonna hate me this summer. ;)

wolverine
10 September 2004, 09:20 AM
THREAD resurection....

OK. Been a while. Lots of new faces....

Any new thoughts on these questions?

What about how much damage it would cause?
What about a crown royal sized bag/pouch of gunpowder??

kaeroth
11 September 2004, 04:00 PM
Okay okay okay. This is what I think. One, Lightsabers *do* ignite stuff that'll burn. Qui-gonn's door, the glowing droid bits, ect., are all examples of its heat, but not its ignitory (is that a word?) qualities. No one has mentioned when Anakin cut through the Tusken Raider's Hut in Ep.II (or have they? i've only read the first page and last two of this thread). It clearly burnt through it, and little flames even danced around the edges of the cut for a moment. It somehow has heat without radiating it, though. And as for the worries of lightsabers turning into multitools used for chopping wood and heating soup, well, i guess they'd be great for chopping wood, come to think of it, but the soup wouldn't work. All the soup that came in contact with the blade would turn to steam almost instantly, but the rest of the soup would stay cold.

"I would also quickly allow the Dark Jedi to dissipate/drain the heat from the flame so as to make this a cool but short lived victory." -Dr_Worm

Now, i don't think that would work, either. Remember when Jango used his flamer on Mace? Mace Windu, the jedi whose lightsaber says "bad MutherFu--er" on it? What did he do? He jumped off the balcony to get away from the fire, that's what he did, and then he took off his robe because of the burning it was engaged in. You could say that this is because he could dissipate the heat energy from himself but not his clothes, but then why not just let them burn. If you could run into a battle *on fire*, ignoring the flames as you rushed the enemy, I think you'd probably get some sort of morale bonus. but I don't think you could do it. maybe, though, you could if you wanted to keep spending the concentration it, but that doesn't work because Dissipate Energy is a reaction and costs no VP. So there's no reason that Mace would have taken his robe off except that fire burns Jedi just like it does hamburgers. 'Course Mace might've taken his robe off not because the fire could harm him but because the robe was burnt and he wouldn't be seen in something so unfashionable.
Oh, but wait. D6 handles that kind of thing differently, doesn't it? *Could* a Jedi in D6 (without making any rules interpretations here, just going on the rule books) shrug off fire? Could they burn without being consumed?

"First thing I'd do to avoid this problem [people always throwing explosives at a brother's lightsaber] would be to set the difficulty to hit an ignited lightsaber really high (maybe a 30?). A lightsaber blade would certainly not be an easy thing to hit with a molotov coctail (or pipebomb). Plus, you have to assume that the saber is moving (I've not seen very many jedi that stand like a statue when combat starts). If you wanted to balance it more towards the Jedi, then you could give him a reflex save to yank his saber out of the way." -reliant

I'm pretty sure there are rules (in D20) for striking a held object, it has a Defense of something like the character's Defense plus the object's size modifier, or similar. but that's neither here nor there. You don't need to throw the molotov at the ligthsaber, throw it at the jedi (or Sith, but everyone's always picking on them). That way, the Jedi either has to block it with his lightsaber (running the risk of setting it on fire and enveloping himself in an explosion), or not blocking it, and then it hits him and perhaps envelops him in an explosion. Maybe you should throw it at his feet, or the wall next to him, to make sure it breaks.

Ronin
11 September 2004, 07:46 PM
I would most definitely go with the alcohol igniting. Forget science, this is Star Wars, not Star Trek...such quick thinking and inventiveness should be rewarded. Same for a Jedi who tries to parry a bag of black powder (but who's ever seen one of those in SW?), or, God forbid, a grenade or TD.

In Darth Maul: Shadowhunter, lightsabers are plunged into vehicle power-cores and fuel drums, igniting both. If it's good for the story, I'll go with it.

Kayle Skolaris
11 September 2004, 10:35 PM
Kaeroth, I would argue that Mace disposed of his robe for two reasons. One, the flames would be distracting. Two, it's tough to breath smoke, especially in the middle of a sabre fight.

Dr_Worm
12 September 2004, 11:16 AM
f you could run into a battle *on fire*, ignoring the flames as you rushed the enemy, I think you'd probably get some sort of morale bonus. but I don't think you could do it. maybe, though, you could if you wanted to keep spending the concentration it, but that doesn't work because Dissipate Energy is a reaction and costs no VP. So there's no reason that Mace would have taken his robe off except that fire burns Jedi just like it does hamburgers.

First, this thread is so old I do not remember saying that, but I agree with myself, so YAY for me!. Second, the thing you are doing here, though, is assuming that the creators of the film gave a poop about RPG rules. They do not, and do not dictate character's actions by how it would fit with RPG mechanics. Therefor there will be some things that happen in films that RPG rules differ on. Third, Corran Horne is an example of such extreme uses of dissipate energy, so there is at least an EU basis for dissipating huge ammounts of heat.

Heat is simply energy. If a Jedi can diussipate the energy from a blaster, there is no rational reson why he/she cannot from fire.

kaeroth
12 September 2004, 12:44 PM
I agree with the good doctor that the movie folks don't give a fig for the rpg rules. But i think, nay, i would insist that the rpg folks use the movies as the basis for how they rig up the mechanics to work.
now, taking into account that the D20 rpg came out before Ep II, then the creators of the Dissipate Energy feat would have been drawing from Vader's handling of Han's shot in ESB (though that's also incorporated into the JG class, but i can't remember if it was in that class before the revised rules came out), and...anything else? Probably some EU stuff that i can't think of right now. Also, if they were wise they also looked heavily at what WEG had come up with for jedis to be able to do. I never played a Jedi in the WEG system, but i *dimly* recall that the Force skill (technique? they're called techniques, right?) in D6 that allows a jedi to absorb different kinds of energy has it set up so that absorbing such focused energy as blasters is a pretty tough roll. Am i right in that? Now, fire....you know, i'm starting to get too star trek here (nod to Ronin), looking to use science as an explanation for what is really just my personal opinion. I think that fire or an explosion is more an area of effect style of attack or hazard to alow a jedi to possibly neutralize it as a reaction. I think i could allow a character to put himself out if he were on fire as, perhaps, a full-round action, but not as a freebie. And here i will go back to that scene with Mace v. Jango to say that whatever the reason, Mace fled from fire.
which makes it sound as though i'm actually in Dr_worm's camp here. Jedi/Sith catches on fire, a few seconds later it's out and the Bad Guys/Our Heroes are in trouble again.

wolverine
12 September 2004, 01:00 PM
Third, Corran Horne is an example of such extreme uses of dissipate energy, so there is at least an EU basis for dissipating huge ammounts of heat

From what i remember of that scene, it was mucho blaster bolts, from 'blaster mines'. Nothing to do with flames, though it did burn off his clothes.

Kayle Skolaris
12 September 2004, 01:55 PM
Again I must point out that there's more to fire than just heat. It's distracting and produces smoke. Little known factoid: Most people caught in fatal fires die from smoke inhalation, NOT the flames.

kaeroth
12 September 2004, 02:00 PM
Hey, Kayle, how come your rank badge next to a post you make looks different from the one shown on your little profile screen? i'm not asking for an explanation of how it all works; i've read through that thread and there's too much math involved for my tastes. i was just wondering about the discrepancy. i didn't even know the Imps *had* green rank chiclets.

Dr_Worm
12 September 2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by wolverine


From what i remember of that scene, it was mucho blaster bolts, from 'blaster mines'. Nothing to do with flames, though it did burn off his clothes.

I could swer there was a fire scene...in a warehouse, but then I am no EU scholar.


...taking into account that the D20 rpg came out before Ep II, then the creators of the Dissipate Energy feat would have been drawing from Vader's handling of Han's shot in ESB...

Actually the D20 designers determined that the above incident was a case of deflecting the blaster bolt. I do not agree with them, but that is what they decided. So they actually had not film instances of Absorb/Dissapate to work with when comming up with the power. It was really more of a holdover from D6.


Again I must point out that there's more to fire than just heat. It's distracting and produces smoke. Little known factoid: Most people caught in fatal fires die from smoke inhalation, NOT the flames.

As I nurse I understand this quite well, but the incident we are ducussing here is not a smoky fire, per se', it is a flash blaze caused by the super heating of a propellant. The smoke would not have time to really get dangerous, and by that time the fire would be out and the Jedi could use some other way to deal with the smoke.

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
14 September 2004, 01:48 AM
Would a lightsaber ignite a crown royal bag of black powder? or a canteen of alcohol? I say yes, most definately.

No different than adding a fuse and lighting it, or hooking two wires to the container's inners and the other 2 ends of the wires to positive and negative electrical terminals (aka wall outlet or car battery)... A spark by either flame or electrical current "arc" is still a spark... It's a micro sized parcel of heat energy... Will ignite anything thats readily flamable / combustable.

Flintlock guns as well as profesional fireworks displays use this principle to be ignited.

Here's my simplified reasoning for it... And i'm quite surprised nobody has mentioned it or thought of it this way....

A lightsaber basically has a power cell, crystal, and a focusing lense... (give or take, including switch, handle casing and other minute nescesary components) The energy supplied by the power cell passes through the crystal and then through the focusing lense - producing a shaft of contained energy... Energy that's very focused, dense and solid...

The blade has no wieght even though there is diameter (thus mass without weight). The core bright white and the edges "glow" whatever color supplied in part by the crystal, and part by the energy bleed / disipation into nothingness...

The blade is energy, hence if looked at the microscopic level, is in actuality highly charged atomic particles of both positive and negative neurons. Hence, this gives the blade indefinate sharpness of edge for cutting through almost anything, as well as heat...
- Heat that does not radiate as loosely as a candle's flame but one that's tightly contained within the core / center of the blade's whiteness...
- The blade's "Hotness" or heat would only be able to be felt by contact mostly if the blade lightly brazes the skin resulting in a burn mark.
- Nor does the blade have wieght since the atoms that make up the blade is in pure energy form, pure live energy has no wieght.

This also explains why slashing the lightsaber through a droid, leaves red hot edges, or sticking it through several inches of blast-grade heavy metal of a blast-door would become super-heated to melting point around the blade itself, but cooling again after contact (albiet slow going would be the cutting and strength needed exerted).

In other words - to even create such a blade, intense focusing and containment of energy would be required in the first place to make the blade. Energy is made up of neurons, rapidly moving which creates heat, but all that is thus contained with a minimal "bleed off" in order to maintain that shaft of energy, or otherwise would be a wavering torch or candle type flame OR an electrical arc, making for a thin lasoo with one end steming from the helm, and the other end imediately reaching for the closest contact surface... without solidity... Uncontained energy would be a blaster bolt when fired - tube like form shaped from barrel that flies burning and disipating until it hits or disipates of out existance...

Feel free to agree or disagree as usual. Enjoy. ;)

RemyLeBeau
15 September 2004, 09:03 AM
First off, reliant, DIESEL FUEL IS FLAMMABLE!
Obviously you don't have enough time on your hands...

:)

Of course, this could also come as a benefit to the jedi, too.
If a certain character is known to keep a hip flask of vodka,
(As my guy does) a simple lightsaber sweep could
ignite his pants, legs, etc. (Better keep this info out of my
GM's hands...) Another factor: any alcohol above 40-proof
burns quite well, as people who are bored will tell you quite
readily, but grain alcohol is deadly, and a 30-proof liquor will
only smoulder or spurt up, most likely. Trust me, I know this
kind of thing. Drano is flammable, as well. So is nail polish
remover, brake fluid, DIESEL FUEL, and ammonia.

Oh, by the way. Most fire departments have a 5-minute
response time. Just a handy hint.

Vanger Chevane
15 September 2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by RemyLeBeau
First off, reliant, DIESEL FUEL IS FLAMMABLE!
Obviously you don't have enough time on your hands...

And after dealing with .mil well-designed & assembled Diesel Stoves I also know how big of a PIA it is to get that sucker to start.

A puddle of Gasoline is a bit tough to light with a basic match/Bic, Diesel is much oilier & takes significantly more work. A Diesel Molotov is a great way to appear as the Al-Queda Village Idiot. :P

Alcoholic drinks usually don't do well as the Alcohol evaporates & burns off too quickly. You want something that will stick around & transfer that heat, and the fire, to your target.

Dr_Worm
15 September 2004, 02:11 PM
I am no mechanic, but as I understand it Diesel needs to be heated before it is flamable. What I mean is that when I have driven Diesel cars you have to turn the key so that the heating element can warm the fuel. Then once you get the okay from the car you can start it and expect the Diesel to combust.

That is all beside the point though.

RemyLeBeau
15 September 2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Vanger Chevane

A puddle of Gasoline is a bit tough to light with a basic match/Bic, Diesel is much oilier & takes significantly more work. A Diesel Molotov is a great way to appear as the Al-Queda Village Idiot. :P


Hehehehe... Village idiot... :)

Hang on a sec though. You're talking about gasoline here?
The same stuff you just mentioned as hard to start?
Hoo boy. If you don't mind losing the lighter, gasoline
will start just by thinking about it. Diesel (I must admit)
is only used in one of our vehicles, so I don't know a TON
about it. Just that it does burn like something between
gasoline and oil. Harder to start, burns longer, etc.
About it needing to be warmed, I'm not sure. The car
hasn't worked for a while, like since before I was born.
We just siphon the tank for *ahem* fun with fire. :)

Terras Jadeonar & Raven
15 September 2004, 08:44 PM
Alcolhol is fun when having "something flambeu" ... in the restaraunt, the waiter douses the food quickly with a bit of alcohol and then lites it as he's about to serve it to customers... That or adding Rum to a recipe as a desert sauce in a pan - and lighting it to remove the alcohol... Yeah it does burn itself out fairly quickly

Though, getting splashed by flaming alcohol's still gonna give some nasty 2nd and 3rd degree burns...


Diesel Fuel, ohyeah - when it comes to diesel engines and winter time... man do my friends really swear at their deisel cars / trucks when they don't wanna start... Dunno about the new VW cars though...

JediJester
16 September 2004, 08:58 AM
I'd rule that it does catch fire. When the lightsaber cuts through the canteen, the canteen-saber interaction will produce heat that will ignite the flamable liquid.

As for lightsabers working in water: I've always gone with that they will not work for 1d4 hours after total submerssion unless they've been specially waterproofed. Once they've dried out again, they'll work just fine.

Vanger Chevane
16 September 2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by RemyLeBeau


Hehehehe... Village idiot... :)

Hang on a sec though. You're talking about gasoline here?
The same stuff you just mentioned as hard to start?
Hoo boy. If you don't mind losing the lighter, gasoline
will start just by thinking about it. Diesel (I must admit)
is only used in one of our vehicles, so I don't know a TON
about it. Just that it does burn like something between
gasoline and oil. Harder to start, burns longer, etc.
About it needing to be warmed, I'm not sure. The car
hasn't worked for a while, like since before I was born.
We just siphon the tank for *ahem* fun with fire. :)
If Gasoline was half as flammable as Hollyweird makes it out to be, there'd be fuel interlocks & storage cells like one sees on Top Fuel Dragsters and othe race cars as even a small spill could turn the entire gasamat into a 6-meter-deep smoking crater.

Also note how those lit trails of gas Hollyweird uses in almost every other episode of some shows always have a blue leader flame of decent length followed by yellow. The Blue flame is Alcohol or Butane (like Ronson Zippo fluid) which serves as your ingnitor/accelerant to get the gas/whatever going.

Diesel takes a decent amount of fire applied for a few minutes to get a shallow puddle of Diesel to ignite. Once going it is self-sustaining without being terribly explosive.

IzVenjari
20 September 2004, 06:07 PM
Speaking of burning stuff .... Has anyone noticed just how powerful flamethrowers are?

If i had a choice between a lightsaber and a flamethrower i would go with the flamethrower every time?

Hmmm ... crispy barbecue flavor :D

wolverine
20 September 2004, 10:35 PM
Yea, but their in game stats are not so hot...

IzVenjari
27 September 2004, 02:10 PM
True ... to an extent. :)

I'm not sure about the d6 rules, but here are the basic d20 rules regarding fire:

You must roll a reflex save to avoid the fire. If you fail you take whatever damage is associated with the fire - but here is the point: the damage goes straight to wounds!!!!!!!!!!!

8o

Hoo hah!!

So, theoretically then, if you use a flamethrower any damage you inflict goes straight to wounds. Which makes sense, to a degree, because fire is fire - and fire doesn't work in a straight line like a blaster bolt.

However, that has caused not a little consternation and confusion amongst our gaming group (heh - swiss family robinson speak) because that implies that a flamethrower does not need an attack roll because it is spraying an area with fire rather than aiming at a particular object. (deep breath) And therefore, to avoid a flamethrower one must make a reflex save.

There are a few solutions to this, but there are probably better ones than the ones we have thought up. Maybe all you great gaming minds out there might like to contribute any you think of.

:D Iz