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Chase1848
22 July 2002, 04:30 PM
I am GMing an all Jedi game and one of the Jedi Consulars has become intimidate-tastic. Even though he is only 2nd level, he has a +13 or so and intimidates the crap out of anyone I send at him.
The problem is, I can't fault him because he is using it to stop fights and the such. An example is: 4 2nd level thugs jump the party with blasters and a fight breaks out. He intimidates one of the thugs and screams, "Drop your weapon". According to the intimidate rules, he should, but I hate watching it happen. Any ideas for change or maybe I'm just being petty. Let me know! Thanks!

Jastor
22 July 2002, 04:45 PM
throw in trained units :)

which are convniced that they are superior no matter what .. ie.. just because the rules states something , doesnt mean you cant bend it.

... hmm ... combat ... mental illness ... religious belives ... whatever :) can overcome such rules ;) since he is a "good" player .. he will have to do stronger things to overcome it .. which usually ends up with DSP's

Kas'ir Faywind
22 July 2002, 05:11 PM
Ask him to describe how he is intimidating. If he has his lightsaber drawn and in an attack stance i would think thats a tad agressive for a Jedi. If he is smart and does that Mace Windu type of intimidate, toss in some raged opponents they dont really understand intimidate

evan hansen
22 July 2002, 08:20 PM
OK, I just read over this and it's really really rambling, so wade through the crap and focus on my main points. :-)

Just alter the rules. You might not be able to do it in this campaign -- it may have to wait until the next one just for the sake of fairness.

Here's my thinking though: If imitimidate is becoming problematic, just make it less functional. Say that opponents of certain types get to add a modifier to all intimidation checks. It's not much different than what others have suggested. Obviously, though, you can't explain that every opponent this guy runs into is trained in some sort of military way. You need a basic alteration of the rule. So just figure out what works for you that's still fair and do it.

You may want to seek the advice of your player. Explain to him your concern and see what he says. Hopefully, he'll be responsible about it and help you plan a good way of handling this skill.

Or you can always simply modify your adventures so that combat and attack isn't a focus. And, on the rare occasion that it is, it's combat with people who won't be so easily intimidated.

OOOH... Or create some sort of rule that does things in graduations. So if you apply graduations to intimidation, it'll say that at +3 over the target number, the opponent is kind of intimidated and loses -2 from initative or something, at +8 the opponent loses initiative altogether, and at like +15 the opponent gets intimidated and runs away. It's not a good example, but you get the idea.

Hope my random musings helped...

LiquidSaber
22 July 2002, 09:14 PM
Throw that consular bad-boy in the middle of a Nobility Ball where the party must accomplish their goals by remaining in polite society. (All diplomacy, intimidation only works against him because he's dealing with powerful and not easily intimidated officials/nobles).

Second, you can try throwing individuals that do not speak his languages and can't understand his words so intimidation becomes uneffective. If he tries intimidating by using physical force (i.e. ignites saber and bares their path menacingly) the thugs are more than happy to oblige, they want to fight, it's their job...

Jastor
23 July 2002, 04:14 PM
dont forgett the advantage / dissadvantage rules ..

comming alone into a room with 6 ppl.. gives him a dissadvantage (or rather them getting the advantage) , therefore the ppl hes trying to intimidate gets bonus... dont know how this is covered in D20 but in D6 its .. somewhere .. in the back .. before the equipment i think (second edition)

Agback
23 July 2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by evan hansen
Just alter the rules. You might not be able to do it in this campaign -- it may have to wait until the next one just for the sake of fairness.

That's a very important point. There have been a few times when I have invested a lot of a character into being able to do some particular thing: chosen feats, spent skill points, assigned attribute rolls, chosen classes, done similar things in other games; the character has turned out to be very effective at that thing; the GM has felt that there is a mismatch between rules implications and the way he thinks the world ought to be; and the GM has altered the rules to make whatever-it-is [much] less effective. When this has happened I have overcome the feeling of being cheated, but I have been left with a character who has invested everything in what is now a useless ability, is no good at anything else, and is consequently a useless cripple.

So, if you think that intimidate is spoiling your campaign, and if you can't put up with it until the campaign runs its course, so if you want to patch the intimidate rules or even if you want to start enforcing rules that your character-player did not take into account when he designed his character and that you have not used up until now, I suggest taht you offer the player in question an option to tweak or redesign his character or to replace it with another with the same experience total.

Regards,


Agback

Chase1848
23 July 2002, 05:15 PM
All of your suggestions have been great. It has opened up a whole section of possiblilites that had not occured to me. I will definately not change the rules because his heart is in the right place (Jedi not hurting anyone and using non-violent methods). I am going to definately ask him HOW he is intimidating and also put him in some situations where using intimidate will be a poor idea!

Kas'ir Faywind
23 July 2002, 06:10 PM
Isnt intimidate opposed rolls? Have them face some guys with maxed intimidate and skill focus intimidate them selves. Depending what era droids dont get intimidated too well or that rancor wont care if you wave a lightsaber around "mmmmmmmm colored toopicks"

If implamenting(sp?) monsters such as rancors is a problem (like an urban campaign) Nobles of cities could have dangerous exotic animals as pets.

Have them be lead by a squad leader of some sort (noble if your d20) and they get some ability iirc that prevents that sort of thing.

Major Rekk
23 July 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Chase1848
I am GMing an all Jedi game and one of the Jedi Consulars has become intimidate-tastic. Even though he is only 2nd level, he has a +13 or so and intimidates the crap out of anyone I send at him.


Even though intimidate is an in-class skill for the Jedi Consular class, the highest Intimidate the rules allow a 2nd level PC is 3+2 (for 2nd level) + 4(for attribute bonus)= 9! Assuming the character is not an alien with a large Charisma attribute bonus, any way...The consular PC would have to have a Charisma of at least 26 to get a +8 bonus to a 5 in Intimidate!

A 9 is still a high Intimidate rank, but much more manageable than a 13+! He's a cheater all right, but in a different way than you thought.:p

Yours,
Major Rekk:

Kas'ir Faywind
23 July 2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Major Rekk


Even though intimidate is an in-class skill for the Jedi Consular class, the highest Intimidate the rules allow a 2nd level PC is 3+2 (for 2nd level) + 4(for attribute bonus)= 9! Assuming the character is not an alien with a large Charisma attribute bonus, any way...The consular PC would have to have a Charisma of at least 26 to get a +8 bonus to a 5 in Intimidate!

A 9 is still a high Intimidate rank, but much more manageable than a 13+! He's a cheater all right, but in a different way than you thought.:p

Yours,
Major Rekk:

You forgot another +5 from possible feats skill focus and i am sure there is one that gives +2 intimidate +2 somehting else.

Rasputine
24 July 2002, 05:51 AM
Yep, there is the persuasive feat for a +2 and skill Emphasis(Intimidate) for another +3

Chase1848
24 July 2002, 11:13 AM
He is a Jedi Consular with a 19 charisma (He's a Twilek) with five ranks in bluff and intimidate. Thank gives him a +4 (charisma) and +5 (ranks). He then takes the feat persuasive (+2 to bluff and intimidate). Finally, he gets the synergy bonus of +2 to intimdate if you have 5 ranks in bluff for a massive grand total of +13. We are currently gaming on the outer rim and I am not letting him use his reputation. Thank goodness for that!

incantator
24 July 2002, 11:26 AM
Finally, he gets the synergy bonus of +2 to intimdate if you have 5 ranks in bluff

I thought that the RCR got rid of the automatic synergy bonuses of the OCR.

Chase1848
24 July 2002, 03:27 PM
They purely left them up to the GM.

According to the SWRPG FAQ 07/02/2002 by JD Wiker:
Why are there no specific skill synergy bonuses listed in the Revised Core Rulebook?
They're now up to the GM to decide when they apply.
This was done to make synergy bonuses more flexible. The
GM may, of course, use the synergy bonuses listed in the
original Core Rulebook if he wishes.

So that is what I did.

Jedi_Staailis
24 July 2002, 09:09 PM
My advice would be to apply modifiers. Both systems allow for modifiers for favorable or unfavorable conditions. These rules allow the GM to fill the holes in the rule systems and preserve a semblance of realism.

There are situations where intimidate works well, and there are situations where it doesn't. If your Jedi Consular is in a dark bar staring down another patron, I can see intimidate being useful. If the Consular tries to intimidate his or her way out of an ambush by armed thugs, there'd better be a huge roll involved.


When this has happened I have overcome the feeling of being cheated, but I have been left with a character who has invested everything in what is now a useless ability, is no good at anything else, and is consequently a useless cripple.
The trick is to properly balance the rule. If the character is designed so that rule technicalities add up to a game dominating effect, something has gone wrong in the rules, and the GM needs to clean up the mess. He or she shouldn't destroy the ability, but the ability shouldn't be allowed to stand in its unbalanced form.

In the Star Wars universe (as in real life) we see diversity in how different people approach problems. If there was a clearly dominant skill, then we would all go about things the same way. Star Wars games should show the same variety of problem solving. The ability in question has to fit in with all the other abilities.

Just my two cents...

LiquidSaber
24 July 2002, 10:40 PM
Wow, I've had problems on again and off again with this sort of thing. Dealt with moderately well. Wouldna have thought there were so many ways to take care of this problem. Most impressive...

The Admiral
25 July 2002, 06:29 AM
Sooner or later your villain will notice this tactic, and devise a counter to it.

Glass handled blasters filled with Gelignite, for example.
"DROP YOUR WEAPON!"
"eep!"
[FFFFFFFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!]

Or ear-plugs.
"DROP YOUR WEAPON!"
"?"
"DROP YOUR WEAPON!"
"?"
"DROP - YOUR - WEAPON!"
[ZARK]

Lord Diggori
25 July 2002, 08:46 AM
I like most of the advice I've seen here so far. Although this scenario can be a real pain I do believe that the player is in-character and clever to use this tactic. Giving DSPs for something a Jedi says without force enhancement is ridiculous to me.

Minions of some major villain would undoubtably be intimidated by their boss first and foremost. He pays them, knows where they live, has their grandmothers and kids tied up in basements somewhere. You could have the intimidate check result of the villain set the DC for the Jedi's skill check. This is believeable, preserves the utility of the skill, and is fair to the players as long as you dont overuse it.

I've used the same type of mechanic to check the power of Affect Mind. If the NPC's believe they will die by taking the force suggestion it won't work according to the rules.

Conditional modifiers are good, like a bonus for NPC's with superior numbers and penalties for those with less than the party in number.

Ambushes are another excellant suggestion. I'd rule an intimidate attempt as a full round or move action based on the amount that's being said in 6 seconds.

I dont think language is an effective barrier as just about everyone speaks Basic and even those don't will respond to voice tone and strong body language, including animals unless they're cornered or starving.

Ravager_of_worlds
25 July 2002, 09:10 AM
another avenue of possibility-

Notice that characters can't "take 10" during combat or other 'extreme' circumstances (except high level scouts). I have had a long standing house rule that when people roll "initiative", all diplomacy has been thrown out the window for most intents and purposes between the "good guys" and the "bad guys".

i'd still allow diplomacy and intimidation during a fight but would allow good role playing instead of good roll playing- ie, the skills are thrown out the window when initiative is drawn up; thugs aren't scared of some pansy twilek... but if that twilek called out "drop your weapons" and proceeded to blast a thug's gun with fancy shooting... well, that would allow an intimidate, just not using their skill check.

intimidate is often used for "torturing" a character- so, your jedi twilek's phenomenal skill would have to learned somehow. maybe when allowing the twilek to 'torture' will restrict him/her somewhat in how they use intimidate.

one of my players did something similar, but decided to stop at +10. I simply changed the initimidate opposition by having a will saving throw and the above suggestion.

Tony J Case, Super Genius
28 July 2002, 02:14 PM
I dont know if this is how it works in D20, but I know that context was a factor in the D6 system.

For example: The Batman has the captured goon tied up and is holding him one handed upside down from one of the REALLY tall buildings in Gotham. Now, Batman is an intimidating guy in his own right - but add in the terror of the surroundings, and you have a goon that's about to poop his own pants.

Consider this: a naked, defensless Batman with no weapons surrounded by Joker's two dozen highly trained professional killers. Any intimidation attempts will have a severe minus - despite the fact that Bats will still probably be able to kick all their asses.

See what I mean?