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View Full Version : I have some questions (Star by Star Spoilers)



Jovas Kig
28 July 2002, 08:34 AM
I may sound like a dunce but I have to know:

What is this "EU" I keep hearing about in people's posts?

I tried checking the FAQ here on the site and could not find any mention of it. I am guessing it refers to a certain era in the SW timeline. Such as with EII or EV.

I originally bought the first WOTC Core rulebook I guess soon after it first came out. I was surprised and somewhat dismayed to find out a new one came out only a couple of years later, with what appears to be dramatically altered class rules.
To update my mess of player and game characters, I would have to go out and buy a whole new one. I am not exactly rolling in money.
In the Gamer's Magazine they (Wizards) admit to several errors in the first core book. If that was so, then why not post the corrections on their website? Or perhaps offer a discount to those who bought their first core book and now feel ripped off?

Here is the mesage implied from Wizards.

"Thanks for buying our original core rulebook. We really appreciate your business."

"Whoops. We majorly screwed up that last core rulebook, so here's the new and improved book. Throw that old thing we sold to you last time. It is useless now. Buy our new and improved one."

Ka-CHING!

I am still trying to figure out another thing. How can Voxyn be immune to the Force (According to the NJO Core rulebook) and at the same time be vulnerable to Affect Mind when Jacen tricks one into attacking it's tenders (See Star By Star)?


Enough for now I guess.

Later

Jovas Kig

Jedi_Staailis
28 July 2002, 12:09 PM
I can help with some of the questions.

As for EU, it stands to Expanded Universe. Anything that's not the films is EU. Movie novelizations and the radio dramas fall somewhere between the movies and the EU. Some players like the EU, some play solely using the movies as a setting, and some fall in the middle, selectively picking bits and pieces of the EU to use in their games.

As for the RCRB: buying a new book with a lot of the same material is frustrating, but there is a lot of new content in the book. No game is perfect, and most games go through multiple revisions. There was nothing wrong with the original version: I ran a game with it from the moment it came out until the publishing of the RCRB. If you want to know exactly what you're buying, check out the RCRB review here on SWRPGNetwork (this link (http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/entry.php?id=1479)). If you need more information about what has been changed, post a question on the d20 forums. It is an expensive book, but you do have information to decide whether it's worth the purchase.

I can't answer the voxyn question. I read Star By Star, but don't remember it especially well, and don't have it available for access.

Nova Spice
29 July 2002, 06:30 PM
I've read Star by Star as well and don't remember any mention of voxyn being immune to the Force? I mean Jaina flash-fried a few with Force Lightning at the end did she not?

Do you happen to know what page this was mentioned on? Otherwise I guess I can't really help you. I don't remember reading about voxyn's having Force Immunity though. If they do then Jacen's Affect Mind trick and Jaina's Force Lightning fireworks wouldn't have made much sense; you're right there. 8o :raised:

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
29 July 2002, 06:45 PM
Vornkrs, which where used to create Voxyn are not immune to the Force. Quite the opposite, they use the Force to hunt, thus the reason why Ysamari evolved the ability to block the Force thus giving themselves a greater chance of survival.

And if they were immune to the Force then the Jedi that they attacked wouldn't feel that hunger that they felt just before they saw the voxyn.

Ravager_of_worlds
30 July 2002, 07:23 AM
i think the "immune to the force" for vornskyrs is just that they are real good at avoiding being radar blips on a force users radar screen (See Force in D20). In the Zahn books, Luke is traveling cross country with Mara Jade and the nimble predators sneak up on Luke almost repeatedly despite his connection to the force. In effect, Vornskyrs and Voxyn have a kind of force invisibility thing going on.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
30 July 2002, 08:53 AM
That is because they are in a forest filled with ysalamiri, not because they are in a forest with vornskrs. On any other planet, ship, whatever where a trained Jedi had access to the Force (without interference from ysalamiri or the like) they would be able to sense them with out much problem.

Look at page 48 of the Alien Anthology if don't believe this. The vornskrs are listed as a 'Force-using predator.'

The Admiral
30 July 2002, 09:48 AM
Frobi is quite correct, Vornskyrs are extremely sensitive to the Force. Durm and Strang loath Jade when they're off Mykyr, and go ballistic when Skywalker turns up, IIRC, Karrde has to have them restrained in the far corner of the cargo bay. It'd rather like shining 10,000 candlepower halogen bulbs right into the eyes of nocturnal predators.

As for the problems with the WotC rulebooks, welcome to the world of a corporate owned hobby. As with any corporation, you have too much money. They have too little.

Jovas Kig
30 July 2002, 11:26 AM
The source of the "Force Immunity" I mentioned is in the NJO core rulebook I have read. In the section detailing the Voxyn, it lists:

<i>SQ: Immune to Force, Sense and Alter. </i>

The main concern is that Jaina's and the other Jedi's actions show a alarming contradiction between <i>Star by Star</i> and the <i>New Jedi Order Rulebook</i>. I am not sure about the actual exact title.

When I noticed the Force Immune SQ in the Voxyn's stats, that caused me to read throught the SBS summary and found that even though they mention defeating the Voxyn queen, they omit the fact that force powers were used on the Voxyn several times.

My concern is that a GM might rely entirely on the NJO source book without reading the NJO series and find themselves in conflict with players who have read the portions that contradict the NJO rulebook.

It seems to me that the creators of the rulebook did not read the novels in full and simply were handed a summary to work on.

Thanks for the feedback all.

Jovas Kig

Ravager_of_worlds
30 July 2002, 01:18 PM
frobi and i always seem to be a bit at odds. however, if you remember the encounters with Talon Karddes' pets the Admiral is correct. they go nuts whenever a real force user is around. Luke also is edgy around the critters- I seem to remember him being unnerved by the stealth of the creatures.

I also seem to remember that he was actively probing the force and checking his force radar while going through the trek when the vornskyrs sneaked up on him. What i remember is what i remember. I'm sorry if i don't have my Zahn library in front of me.

Anikka Nesson
30 July 2002, 03:39 PM
I seem to remember that Luke could not use the force while he was on the planet, AT ALL. That this was due to the sloth-like creatures that canceled out the force,Ysalamiri.
The anitforce bubble these creatures created enveloped the planet. If memory serves, and it often dosen't, Luke described it as being blind. He could not feel the force, nor could he use it, due to these creatures. The vornskrs however retained the ability to recognize force users, even with the ysalamiri. Effectively like a one way mirror, the vornskrs could "see" Luke's strength with force, but due to the ysalamiri he could not "see" them.
Albiet a bad discription, but the best i can come up with.


the "immune to the force" for vornskyrs (sic) is just that they are real good at avoiding being radar blips on a force users radar screen
-Ravager_of_worlds


Vronskyrs (sic) and Voxyn have a kind of force invisibility thing going on
-Ravager_of_worlds

In refrence to the above quotes the vornskrs are neither immune to the force, nor do they avoid being radar blips, without the ysalamiri they are just as visible in the force as you or I.


the nimble predators sneak up on Luke repeatedly dispite his connection to the force
-Ravager_of_worlds

Nimble though they may be, the connection to the force is exactly what attracts the vornskrs to Luke.

to quote the Admiral, if I may be so bold,


It's rather like shining 10,000 candlepower halogen bulbs right into the eyes of nocturnal predators.

I will not pretend to be entirely correct in the information I have posted, I am human and VERY capeable of being inacurate. To remedy this I will, once again, re-read the Zahn trilogy. hey, it's an excuse my friends won't scoff at. If anyone disagrees with me and the information I have posted here, please set me to rights, i would appriciate it. Though, if I am wrong I may do it myself in a few days.

The Admiral
30 July 2002, 04:57 PM
I seem to remember that Luke could not use the force while he was on the planet, AT ALL.

It's actually only in the metalwood forests. We they get out of the forest, Luke and Mara escape Thrawn's stormtrooper squads by way of Luke collapsing a big stone arch right on top of their Chariot command speeder, thanks to the Force. However, whilst surrounded by Ysalamiri, you're absolutely correct, he could neither feel nor manipulate the Force in anyway.

I do seem to recall that when a pack attack them in the woods, they go for Luke more forcefully than they do Mara.

Jovas, if they're described that way in a rulebook, then the answer is simple; the book is wrong. It won't be the first time basic errors have been made in RPG books, and it won't be the last. Cross it out, put the correct stuff in. :-) My 2nd Ed is covered in pencil notes of all manner of types as all rulebooks owned by GMs should be. My only complaint about 2nd Ed R&E is that you can't write on the paper,,,

Ravager_of_worlds
1 August 2002, 05:41 AM
i was checking out my creatures anthology and yes, the game designers made them stealthy, not force stealthy though. i was only offering a surmise as to what "force immunity" is, not that it was definate truth. but i do like my idea of being under the force radar- which leads me to a question... would the vong be under the radar? if so, why not use that ability when making the voxyn?

still, the creatures anthology says that the vornskyrs hunt the ysalamiri and often 'mistakes' a force user for ysalamiri. since those little bubbles negates the force... um, isn't the predators force abilities pointless? wouldn't they have evolved something else since the ysalamiri are effectivly invisible to "see force"? or do vornskyrs 'look' for pockets of non-force to find their prey? in which case, the more traditional 'see force' of actual force users would be pointless for the species.

The Admiral
1 August 2002, 07:29 AM
I believe that the abilities of the Ysalamiri and the Vornskyrs are to an extent complimentary. The Vornsykrs have evolved to be REALLY good at sensing the force (in order to compensate for the Ysalamiri effect)

Evolution indicates that without exception, the techniques of prey to hide are only good enough to ensure the survival of the specie. Prey evolve to evade predators, predators evovle to find the prey. It works in balance. Cuttlefish for example have superb adaptive camoflague, but are still predated by creatures with superb senses.

So, Vornskyrs force sense works to a degree, even in the metalwood forests, because that's where they evolved. Take a Vornskyr out of the metalwood forest, and something strong in the Force causes them great pain beause they are massively over sensitive in an environment where the dampening effects of the Ysalamiri are not present. (This is why they go bananas when Jade or Skywalker are near them when they're on the Wild Karrde)

This suggests of course that the Ysalamiri effect isn't quite as total as it appears, and perhaps I'd rule that with year upon year of training, a force user might be able to develop a very milited ability to sense even in the presence of Ysalamiri. (Actually manipulating the Force would be right out, however)

Ravager_of_worlds
5 August 2002, 07:04 AM
makes sense Admiral, thanks.

since most predators actually take down the old and sick, maybe old and sick Ysalamiri aren't able to produce their force bubble as well, since they spend the majority of their time sleeping upside down. perhaps some of that excitement means they get to eat a really sick or old ysalamiri when they sense Luke.

still, i'd figure the buggers would get a keener sense of smell. doesn't one of the imperials on the bridge of the Chimaera comment on the animals being on board? like they'd have a smell right?

i've been mulling over this 'fictional symbiosis' for a while.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
5 August 2002, 08:16 AM
Thanks Admiral that is exactly the theory that a group of us came up with at the ComicCon this weekend. I just would worry about the Ysalamiri population of Mrykr once that the Vornskrs had finally evolved enough to see clearly though the Force even in the range of Ysalamiri?

The Admiral
5 August 2002, 08:31 AM
One possibility is extinction, but it's more likely that a greater force sense in the Vornskyrs would merely make the Ysalamiri stronger. The Vornskyrs would predate more of the weaker Ysalamiri, reducing the genetic stock of Ysalamiri to those with the strongest force repelling abilities, it'd be from those Ysalamiri that the next generation would evolve, their abilities stronger than the previous generation.
That's fundamentally how evolution works.

The step forward is a random mutation, Vernon T Vornskyr just happens to be better at seeing past Ysalamiri thanks to a random change in his DNA caused by a stray particle hitting one of his zygotes. (Before he was concieved, obviously). Vernon T Vornskyr is therefore bigger and stronger (thanks to a greater food supply) than the other Vornskyrs, and sires many offspring, who also are likely to be better hunters.

Vernon's pack cull down the Ysalamiri in their area, only the strong survive, and then you've got an unusually strong Vornskyr pack with an unusually strong Ysalamiri population. Either or both groups could then propogate, though there's some evidence that in that circumstance, the mutations become moot, and gradually fade away. It does depend on a few assumptions; Vornskyrs being terratorial, and Vornskyrs actually hunting Ysalamiri, which has never been confirmed, and seems actually fairly unlikely,,,

Jovas Kig
2 September 2002, 01:09 PM
I have enjoyed the discussion on how vornskyrs got their Force sensing abilitie. But that was not what I was asking about. My concern was the stats of the Voxyn (their genetically modified offspring in NJO).

My question still remains unanswered.
Spoiler (Star by Star)













Jacen used affect mind on the Voxyn queen to attack her own tenders.

Jaina and other Jedi sense the presence of the Voxyn through the Force.

If Voxyn have the following stats (as is listed on page 137 of the NJO Sourcebook)...

<i>SQ Immune to Force, Sense and Alter</i>


...then <b>how in blazes does Jacen do this?</b>


I believe the writers of the sourcebook seriously goofed on this one and it is up to GMs to stay informed on this matter and not rely totally on this sourcebook.

This I fear will cause some arguments between players who read <i>Star By Star</i> and the GMs who are only drawing on the NJO sourcebook to set up the game.

Also of concern is the use of Force Lighting on a Vong by Jaina near the end of SBS. If Vong are Force Immune how can this be done?

My guess is the authors of NJO have not communicated clearly the nature of Vong Force Immunity and in so doing indirectly caused confusion for the writers of the sourcebook. And for us in general. I have finished <i>Dark Journey</i> and <i>Rebel Dream</i> and am thrilled so far by the way the story is going.

Sincerely,

Jovas Kig

JonathanC
5 September 2002, 06:56 AM
Actually, the Force Lightning use isn't that difficult to explain. According to the Revised Core Rulebook (page 87):

"A Force Lightning check sets the DC for the target's Reflex saving throw. On a failed dave, a target takes 3d8 points of <b>energy damage</b>..."

Force Strike and Force Grip merely deal damage using the force, which explains why they don't work. I can't say much about the use of affect mind, since I never have and hopefully never will read any NJO books (I despise the entire concept, for reasons I won't go into here; suffice to say it has nothing to do with the death of Chewbacca). However, I have heard that the books introduce an idea in one of the more recent stories that explains the whole thing. As WoTC didn't have access to that information at the time of the book's publishing, they can hardly be blamed for this. The fact that the setting is still in the process of evolving is one of the many reasons that an NJO sourcebook was a bad idea.

Jovas Kig
10 September 2002, 01:06 PM
Especially JonathanC

I was beginning to feel I was going crazy cause no one else seem to notice the inconsistency between the NJO sourcebook and SBS.

I agree that it was unreasonable to try to create a NJO source book while the NJO series is still being created. Can you imagine having the source book for ANH with no other movies or materials having come out? The revelation about Luke's father and Han Solo's fate in ESB, plus the appearance of Yoda would throw out what might be assumed of Star Wars and the Force based on that one movie alone.

I would like to hear more about your (JonathonC) concerns of the NJO series as well as other players and gms. If you already have something posted in another thread let me know or if you think another forum would be appropriate...

I recommend that of those thinking of doing an NJO roleplaying campaign to rely more on the EU books than the NJO sourcebook. There is so much detail that is missed otherwise.