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Jim Williams
29 July 2002, 06:32 AM
Who would win and why?

Would the Empire do a better job than the Rebellion?

Deck
29 July 2002, 07:46 AM
Still an interesting topic. Of course the Empire would have won! ;) If you're interested in some already written down thoughts, have a look at the thread below:

<center><a href="http://holonet.swrpgnetwork.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1656" target=_blank>Empire vs. Vong</a></center>

Ravager_of_worlds
30 July 2002, 08:45 AM
um deck?

your link won't let me go to that thread. it says i'm not allowed to. is the holonet being elitist? :)

but yeah- i think the Empire would be much more maniacal and machiavellian to destroy the vong. the rebels have achieved victory by being cold and calculating- in effect, empire tactics would decimate the vong.

Deck
30 July 2002, 09:08 AM
I am sorry for the trouble. The thread seems to be in the very deep deepnesses of an aging archive... :)

And considering the fact, that the thread was posted a long time ago, and a lot of new members have joined the board since then, let's just discuss things and the new facts of the recent books. :)

strensk
30 July 2002, 09:47 AM
This was something I have been contemplating for a while. I think the Empire would be victorious, and the Vong would have never gotten as far as they did.

Why?

Well, the New Republic is so ripe with political strife and distrust that they pretty much beat themselves. The Empire, while having politics, most people in a position of power are just too afraid to cross the Emperor.

The Empire's war machine was huge, bigger than the invading Vong force. Not to mention the fact that they would just plain be ruthless in fighting them. If they had to kill a world to defeat the Vong, they would do it, without even blinking an eye. The New Republic would hash it out in committee for six months then they would come to a decision only to realize it was too late.

I was thinking though, how would the Old Republic fare? At least during the "Rise of the Empire" era?

Troy Henist
31 July 2002, 07:09 AM
Empire all the way.

They wouldn't have to deal with all the political infighting that has plagued the NR. If they were still controlling the galaxy, imagine the arsenal they would have had to call on to fight the YV.

The sheer naval might they would have to combat them would have been huge, SSD, Soverign class and Eclipse Class Super Class Destroyers as well as the rest of the fleet. Not only that what do the Imps like? Super Weapons.

Death Stars, Sun Crusher, World Devastators. You have a governement that likes to build Super Weapons that are capable of not only destroyer planets but, entire systems as well, I don't think they will bothered by the moral aspect.

The YV wouldn't stand a chance.

Rouge8
31 July 2002, 06:25 PM
Empire is united, have TIE Defenders, Pathetic Death Stars, and THRAWN!!!

Darth_Cassed
31 July 2002, 08:04 PM
Well first off the Empire is currently at war with the Vong as it is...they're doing a better job defending because the density of area and ships is so much higher.

Second, I do not think the Empire would stand. While in fact the Imperial war machine was huge, the Vong had numbers to match. All fall before the Vong.

If the Empire beat the Vong, nothing is to stop more from coming. Same for the New Republic.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
31 July 2002, 08:16 PM
I think that Han Solo put it best in Destiny's Way by Walter Jon Williams:


"What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and sub-contractors, and equipped it with the latest death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? IT wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."

Ravager_of_worlds
1 August 2002, 09:28 AM
however much i like harrison ford and han's character- he's a bit biased.

reaffirmed vote for the empire wrecking machine- and a note; the rebellion essentially doomed the SW galaxy as of this point in the series.

Jim Williams
1 August 2002, 01:31 PM
Maybe the Vong are supposed to bring balance to the Force!

Anakin turns into Vader, kills Jedi
Luke turns Vader, Vader kills Emperor and dies
Luke tries to restart the Jedi Order, but too few when Vong come, Vong kill all Jedi.
Balance...no light, no dark.

Rouge8
1 August 2002, 06:58 PM
Jim, that is obviously insane. The Vong do exist in the Force.

Darth_Cassed
1 August 2002, 08:19 PM
ummmm....after defeating the Vong in the star wars galaxy.....what's to say more don't come? I'm sure they have trillions more back at home

The_Avatar
1 August 2002, 10:21 PM
My theory was the Vong were like a big plauge. They move from galaxy to galaxy in their worldships, have a big ol meal at the galaxy's expense, and move on. I dont think there are any more coming, as the entire Vong population is already here...

Remember when luke and co blew up their first Worldship: it was filled with civilians and non-military Vong, wasnt it?

Trigger
1 August 2002, 10:23 PM
My vote goes to the empire. sadly, the empire was organized and used brutal tactics. add to this that palpatine could demolish the entire Vong army with a Force Storm, and there you have it. the empire survives, the vong die, and all is safe until the next villian appears. god thats a sad image. maybe that will be an Infinities comic series...............i just gave away a great idea.......damn

Seghast
1 August 2002, 11:03 PM
Had the Empire defeated the Rebellion years ago, they'd crush the Vong. Why?

They've had 20+ years since Endor, and you know how much Palpatine loved his little war machines. We'd still have the Emperor and Grand Admiral Thrawn, which is bad news for the Vong already. But, you'd also have the Mount Tantiss cloning facility, creating an endless supply of stormies to fight the Vong.

By this time, there would be several thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers, a hundred or more Super-classes, and a few dozen Eclipse-class ships.

Then, there'd probably be about twelve Death Stars, if not more. A hundred World Devastators or so, three Galaxy Guns, and at least one Sun Crusher in operation.

Then, let's factor in all the starfighters the Empire would have... A million or so standard TIEs, a few hundred thousand Interceptors and bombers, a few thousand TIE Advanced and TIE Defenders, plus a few hundred Missile Boats.

If the Vong even tried to engage in one battle, they'd have their asses handed to them pretty fast. Sheer numbers would overwhelm them, if nothing else. But, more likely, the Vong would take one look at the opposing force, and decide that maybe, just maybe, their precious Gods want this galaxy left alone. Then they'd all run to some other poor, unfortunate galaxy, and start taking it over.

But, that's just my asinine opinion.

Jim Williams
2 August 2002, 04:41 AM
Come on, the Vong wouldn't leave! Who else could teach them better lessons in pain than the Empire?!!?

To Rouge8...there must have been some revalation I missed because I thought the Vong were outside of the Force?

The_Avatar
2 August 2002, 05:10 AM
Forgot to mention this lastime;

Yes, pretty much everyone here has got the right idea. The reason the Empire was hated so much was because of their "heavy handed" tactics. They weren't a scaple, they were a broadsword. And Palpatine isnt the type to sit back on his Throne and chuckle evily (well...he does...in addition to everything else). He'd keep building and adding to his armed forces until the day his withered old carcas gave out on him.

A lot have said how much a difference Thrawn would have made, were he still around. Imagine the difference if all 12 of the Grand Admirals were still standing. Sure, Thrawn was exceptional, but the other 11 weren't exactly pushovers. I'm not saying the Empire would "Win hands down", but they'd do a hell of a lot better than the unorganised, bickering Republic. What the Republic fails to realise, is that there's no point in protecting "Public Interest", if the "Public" will soon be carrion feed.

Rouge8
2 August 2002, 05:15 AM
To Rouge8...there must have been some revalation I missed because I thought the Vong were outside of the Force?


That's in Edge of Victroy

Jim Williams
2 August 2002, 05:25 AM
Well, the spoiler there is not making me happy. I make a joke, you give away a major plot point to correct me. Thanks.

Although it will be nice to see someone go lightsaber happy on the Vong assuming they can sense them, etc. If Luke could beat Guri, they wouldn't stand a chance against any Jedi without impressive numbers. I guess I'll see unless someone blabs.

Rouge8
2 August 2002, 05:43 AM
That's not major. Anikan can already sense them in Edge of Victory.

Jim Williams
2 August 2002, 06:00 AM
Rouge8,

I meant thank you for the major spoiler from Traitor that you have edited out of your post. Hopefully not too many people read the old one. I remember what Anikin did with the lambent crystal in Edge of Victory, which, well, for spoiler sake I'll drop it. Would you please remember to use spoiler headings? Thanks.

Lord Byss
2 August 2002, 06:13 AM
The Vong fight the way the Empire was designed to fight, large scale pitched battles. Just what the doctor ordered for the Empire! Its all those little pesky Rebel types that wont meet you on a open feild that messed them up.

Empire all the way...

Damian_Kael
13 August 2002, 08:15 PM
And let's not forget about Vader, who would still be alive, as well as the various Emperors hands. Palpatine may decide that force lightning would be fairly effective against the YV, and have some people with a bit of force talent trained in that skill. With the Emperor, Vader, and Emperors hands, the YV would fare so well in hand to hand, or what have you, combat.

Darth_Baldran
15 August 2002, 12:26 PM
IMHO

The Empire would not have fared well against the Vong.

It is sad, for me, to tell this, baut the Imperial war machine was indeed huge, but badly organized.

It was thanks to the numbers that the Empire won most of his fights, but, even with five hundreds TIE fighters, they would not stand against a squadron worth of coral skippers.

TIE fighters don't have shields, and are even more lightly armored than rebel crafts.

An Imperial Star Destroyer will indeed fare well against coral skippers, there where an overload of energy from an X-Wing cannons shuts down the Dovin Basal's black holes, but what against a YV warship?

Indeed with TIE Defenders it would be better, but Defenders are expensive, and too much valuable to use in daily warring!

What I think is this:

A combined force of Rebels, Imperials, Hapans and Ssii-ruuvi would have put an obstacle, indeed a big one, to the YV invasion, but this would have been difficult to achieve.

AxiustheDark
21 August 2002, 08:43 AM
Gotta go with the Empire on this one. I mean...no hit and hide tactics...no farm boys leading the best squadrons...no committees....Just a giant death machine that beats you down...over and over again.

Vader+Thrawn+Palpatine+DeathStar(s)+GalaxyGun=TotalVongAnnihilation

Just shoot 'em a few times with the Galaxy Gun.....run through 'em with the Sun Crusher........and pick off any ship in range with the Death Star Squadrons.....and you've got yourself a Vong Feast.

Darth_Baldran
21 August 2002, 08:55 AM
Well, Axius, you got a point there, but try to think this way:

The Sun Crusher bounces inside a YV system (even on the outskirts); his beatle pilot sings "Here goes the sun!", and the system is no more.
The YV had indeed lost a system (and still the Empire must have known about the system being YV, remembering how elusive they were in the beginning), but wouldn't they find how?

Kyp shot the SC inside a black hole, and the Dovin Basals create black holes of their own, even big ones (remember poor ol' Chewie and Sernpidal), so they would have found a way to smash it.

The comes the Galaxy Gun, but the story is the same: one shot goes well, but eventually the YV will find the GG and destroy it, by the same token.

And then what? A squadron worth of Death Stars?
Don't you think that one, single Dovin Basal (and then better with a squad of), based on the planet the Death Star is going to bust, will force the DS down and crush it against the planet?
Yes, we YV may lose one planet, but then we're going to get another one.

IMHO

Ardent
21 August 2002, 12:33 PM
The Empire hasn't been and probably won't fare any better than the New Republic in the war against the Yuuzhan Vong. Admiral Pellaeon would probably freely admit his fleet is sorely pressed to hold onto the smaller Imperial territory, forget about a large swath of space like the NR Fleets have to cover.

I think the Empire would fare just as poorly as the NR on the whole, and without any heroes to rally around (sic) they'd probably fail to rally at all.

I'm guessing not a whole lot of people picked up on this but...the Cheunh Imperium has been aware of, and indeed has driven off, the Yuuzhan Vong over the last century of galactic history. That's why Thrawn cloned himself (Hand of Thrawn) -- not to "save the Empire" or any such pro-Imperialist garbage. Purely selfish (to save the Cheunh Imperium -- Thrawn was cast out of the Imperium for violating their honor code when he attacked a Jedi expedition before being attacked).

Thrawn was definitely not alone amongst the Chiss in the feeling that their honor code was going to get them destroyed, and the environment in which Jagged Fel was raised is an example of the forward-thinking amongst the Chiss.

IMHO, if anything would sweep the Yuuzhan Vong out of the galaxy in one fell swoop it would be the Imperium (and not Imperial) war machine. I'm betting the Yuuzhan Vong (and Nom Anor, specifically) are entirely too conscious of this, and that's why the Cheunh Imperium (the first civilization they would have encountered within the galaxy) went unmolested and unaccosted even by subterfuge (so far as we know -- which is a safe assumption since the Chiss still haven't entered this war in any greater means than Jagged Fel deserting to fly with Jaina Solo).

"Superweapons are super...but they're still weapons, and like any man who relies too much on his hardware, if you disarm him, he's helpless." - observation of the Wookiee Thwok

AxiustheDark
22 August 2002, 07:54 AM
Well, Darth_Baldran, the Empire’s ability to combat the YV depend on a few key factors.

First=Speed: The military might of the Empire was great, and would be even greater if unmolested by the Rebellion. How fast could the Empire respond to the threat of the YV? Well, much faster than the NR did. The Empire, as a dictatorship, had a singular leader…one that was especially quick in dealing with any purely military foes. No committees to slow down response time….no generals to call up from retirement, I mean, they were already on patrol, mobilized for action.

Second=Sacrifice: How willing was the Empire to sacrifice the “offending limbs?” How ready would they have been to exterminate entire systems to destroy their enemies? We can take Alderaan for example, if need be. Would the Emperor have hesitated to eliminate rinky-dink outer rim systems? No….he would have destroyed any threat to his power….no matter what the cost.

Third=Advance Warning: Would the Empire have had more advanced knowledge than the NR of the impending YV attack? Well, lets look at a few things….1) Grand Admiral Thrawn: Without the advent of the NR, would GA Thrawn still be out patrolling for ne’erdowells out in the middle of nowhere? Probably so. expanding the Empire and all that jazz. I mention him for a point, notwithstanding his military genius, the fact that he was out in the middle of nowhere shows the relative strength of the Empire. How many ships, commanders, task forces were way out there, expanding, eliminating, scouting? Many more than the NR ever could dream of. The chances of the Empire receiving a message along the lines of “..Help…under attack…unknown origins….all ships respond…location 5.22-7896” was actually not that bad. 2) Dark Side Prophets: With the dark side prophet’s amazing ability to see into impending futures with their farseeing, how much would they have known about the impending YV attack? They foresaw the destruction of the Empire at the hands of the Rebellion, as an example. Even if they couldn’t sense the YV themselves, they could have seen the damage and destruction done at the hands of an “invisible” threat. What would have been done to find this threat?

Fourth=Scouting: How good were the YV advance scouts? Could they have found out about the existance of secret projects like the World Devastators? Galaxy Guns? Sun Crushers? Mount Tantiss Cloning Facilities? Could a YV scout infiltrate himself into the upper echelons of Imperial Think-Tanks? What does a datacard mean to the YV? Purification…not information. Every living creature was meant to know about the Death Star….the ultimate deterrent…the price for defiance. But did anyone know about the World Devastators before they started munching up worlds? Lets say that YV commander-boy somehow received a report on a special project, what would his reaction be? “A piece of filth? Danger to us, the YV? Impossible!!”

So, because this is running away from me, we will not even mention GA Thrawn’s almost magical ability to study unknown cultures with limited knowledge…or Darth Vader’s ability to crush organic material with some well placed force usage…or even the cadre undivided force users completely loyal and extremely well trained (No Jedi infighting….that’s a plus).

So, lets combine: First+Second+Third+Fourth= A chance to end the major YV threat with a single, well placed shot. Then, we bat clean-up.

AxiustheDark
22 August 2002, 07:55 AM
I apologize to all those reading for the length of my last post. Just got away from me.

Darth_Baldran
25 August 2002, 06:05 AM
Let's review the factors together

First=Speed: How fast did the Empire respond to a threat like the Rebellion? The Emperor chose not to fight against the Hapan Confederation, and even managed to struck a truce with the Ssii-ruuvi!

Second=Sacrifice: Even the late (cloned) Emperor did not go around bursting planets for sport. You can destroy one, or two, but then you must consider the eventuality of living with no planets around!

Third= We all saw how the Empire responded to the DS prophets foreseeing! It fell to the Rebellion!!!

Fourth=Scouting: The YV scouting IS unremarkable! Try to think of Nom Anor, or Yomin Carr. How many like them do you think there are around the galaxy? Then remember that the YV maybe brave, but not stupid. Shedao Shai obliged Deign Liao to bring more ships into battle, 'cause he knew that these foes are remarkable.

GA Thrawn's ability is dependant upon studying the populace's art forms, and we didn't have much YV art available!
Vader's capacity in crushing organic matter is limited by the Force-Users capacity to sense the YV.

So I still think my beloved Emperor would not have fared well against the YV threat

IMHO

Ardent
25 August 2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Baldran
GA Thrawn's ability is dependant upon studying the populace's art forms, and we didn't have much YV art available!
Vader's capacity in crushing organic matter is limited by the Force-Users capacity to sense the YV.

That's a fallacy, IMHO. Thrawn's ability to rout and/or otherwise crush an opposing force was dependant on how much time he'd spent studying their culture. Even without studying their artwork, Thrawn could crush most anyone strategically, thanks to the fact that not only was a he Chiss, he was also a Officer.

That is all.

Troy Henist
26 August 2002, 08:02 AM
Here is a small line from Traitor.

I don't think it is a spoiler, anyway but I will put it as such, so I don't get jumped on :D


Highlight to read

"The Empire was vastly more organised, powerful and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so successfully in the New Republic, the Empire could have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter" Nom Anor talking to Tsavong Lah

reliant
28 August 2002, 08:12 AM
I vote pro-empire on this issue.

First off, we have to assume that the Empire crushed the rebellion. Then, learning from their mistakes, they would continue building superweapons and HUGE fleets of ships. The imperial war machine by the time of NJO would be incredibly massive. I am pretty sure that the Vong would have their crab armored a$$es handed to them in short order.

Nova Spice
28 August 2002, 05:26 PM
First off, we have to assume that the Empire crushed the rebellion. Then, learning from their mistakes, they would continue building superweapons and HUGE fleets of ships. The imperial war machine by the time of NJO would be incredibly massive. I am pretty sure that the Vong would have their crab armored a$$es handed to them in short order.

I think you pretty much summed it up there reliant, but there is one factor the Empire wouldn't have at their disposal: One Hundred Jedi Knights.

The Jedi are the only ones preventing the galaxy from being totally conquered. ;)

reliant
29 August 2002, 04:54 AM
I think you pretty much summed it up there reliant, but there is one factor the Empire wouldn't have at their disposal: One Hundred Jedi Knights.

This is true, but the empire had their share of force users too. Two of them are argueably some of the most powerful jedi ever (Vader and Palpy), then you have all the emperor's hands. PLUS, with the sparti cloning things you could potentially clone a whole load of darksiders to kick Vong butt.

Marusame
29 August 2002, 07:50 AM
jedi can't do ×××× to vong except for their combat training.

The empire had plenty of highly trained combatants.

Nova Spice
29 August 2002, 02:53 PM
This is true, but the empire had their share of force users too. Two of them are argueably some of the most powerful jedi ever (Vader and Palpy), then you have all the emperor's hands. PLUS, with the sparti cloning things you could potentially clone a whole load of darksiders to kick Vong butt.

Agreed, but I was thinking that Vader and Palpy wouldn't have exactly built up another order of dark Jedi that would have numbered anywhere close to one hundred. Although the cloning cylinders are a good point, I'm still not so sure even Spaarti cloning cylinders can create someone with the Force? I may be wrong here, if so I'll gladly admit it. Either way, this would certainly be an interesting Infinities scenario! :D

Marusame
29 August 2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice

I'm still not so sure even Spaarti cloning cylinders can create someone with the Force? I may be wrong here, if so I'll gladly admit it. Either way, this would certainly be an interesting Infinities scenario! :D

.... Joruus Sabouth (sp?)

reliant
30 August 2002, 04:06 AM
One other thing the empire had going for it was sheer ruthlessness. I wouldn't put it past old palpy to send a few ISD's to distract the Vong fleet while the suncrusher blew up the whole system. Somehow I doubt palpy would shed a tear for a lost system, especially if it took most of the vong invasion fleet with it.

Kaziganthi
30 August 2002, 04:35 AM
Vong Combat training?
How about a Division of Phase III Dark Troopers,
Wouldn't have to worry about Vong hand to hand combat then.

Kanner Ra'an
31 August 2002, 07:53 AM
How could the empire defeat a well organized and well equiped vong force when they were killed by an unorganized and ill equiped group of rebels, even thought they had fleets, super weapons and destroyed planets?
:?

Nova Spice
31 August 2002, 06:43 PM
How could the empire defeat a well organized and well equiped vong force when they were killed by an unorganized and ill equiped group of rebels, even thought they had fleets, super weapons and destroyed planets?

I think thats why they were destroyed by the Rebels. The Empire was so overconfident because the Alliance was ill-equipped and unorganized that their arrogance got the better of them. I'm not so sure how the Imps would have reacted to a standing military force of Vong-magnitude, but Im sure it would have been more thorough than the reaction given to the Rebels. ;)

Ardent
31 August 2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice


I think thats why they were destroyed by the Rebels. The Empire was so overconfident because the Alliance was ill-equipped and unorganized that their arrogance got the better of them. I'm not so sure how the Imps would have reacted to a standing military force of Vong-magnitude, but Im sure it would have been more thorough than the reaction given to the Rebels. ;)

I'd liken the Empire to Imperialist Britain and the Rebellion to the American Colonies. Despite being a smaller, poorer-equipped, ill-trained and undisciplined bunch, the Americans revolutionized warfare when they said "screw honorable combat, the redcoats need to die" and pretty much created modern guerilla warfare. The British were all lined up waiting for their honorable, respectful war in which they'd soundly crush their opponents through sheer numbers, and instead found themselves in a war of attrition fighting against elves in the trees. ;)

I still don't think the Empire would have fared much better than the New Republic, even considering everything we know about its resources and organization. There were still political divides in the Empire. Why wouldn't have, say, Roganda Ismaren or Yvonne Isard taken advantage of the invasion to usurp power for themselves? It essentially boils down to playing a game of "pick your parellel timeline." I think, on average though, both the NR and the Empire are going to get a severe beatdown at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong in the majority of timelines.

Ronin
31 August 2002, 09:41 PM
The problem with cloning a buncha darksiders is (forgetting the insanity-part,...let`s say you take your time) that darksiders are hungry for power...
there`s usually just 2 darksiders (thinking canon, things get too complicated if we add in this-&-that from the EU)...and we know that even then one is usually plotting the downfall of the other.

Now imagine a few thousand darksiders! Palpy would have a back like a pin-cushion due to the number of back-stabbings! (>.<)

If we`re talking EU; we know that the Sith Empire was full of back stabbing and disagreement between Sith who all thought they were right and their fellow-evil doers were wrong.

I think the Empire would crumble if it contained too many darksiders...
(something Palpy tried to curb, IMO).

Just my thoughts (I pick and choose what EU I `believe`...not too many force users thankyou-very-much).

Kanner Ra'an
1 September 2002, 07:30 AM
Also if Palpatine wanted to control them he'd have to keep them pretty week, and even jedi masters like Skywalker and Horn had trouble defeating Vong in singles combat

Codym
1 September 2002, 04:17 PM
Hard question.

First glance: The Empire. Why? Because unlike the New Republic, they wouldn't wait until half the galaxy was dead before concidering fighting back.

Second glance: The Vong. Why? Because the writers would come up with another piece of munchkin Vong biohazard that could wipe out a fleet in one blow using genetic engineering.

Third glance: The Empire. Why? Because the writers would come up with another piece of munchkin superweapon that can wipe out a fleet in one blow using a hole in the plot.

Forth glance: H. G. Wells. Why? He'd go back in time and erase this on-going cheesefest before we all could become lactos-intolerant. :D

Falanx
5 September 2002, 05:38 PM
This is kinda dfferent than what the thread is about, but 've always wondered more about how the Yuuzhan Vong would regard the Empire. One of the biggest reasons they keep pressing their advantages against the New Republic is because thy see it as unworthy and weak. This would probably not be the stance they would take against the Empire. They would probably have taken an entirely different batle strategy against the Empire.

Also alot of people seem to like mentioning that Palpatine would do this or that. I personally don't think that Palpatine could have made it to the Vong invasion. I think Vader would have killed him by then. He already was plotting against him. I think Vader or Thrawn would have ended up leading the Emire againt the Vong.

Finally, I notice that eveyone seems to like mentioning Imperial superweapons and I just wanted to add another one to the list. I believe that the Empire woul have viciously usd Centrpoint Staion against the Vong. Vader woud probably activate it.

Nova Spice
5 September 2002, 06:58 PM
Interesting thoughts Falanx; I never really imagined how the Vong would view the Empire. I think you bring up a valid and insightful observation that may well shed some light on the subject. ;)

I wonder how the Vong would have reacted when the Praetorite were obliterated by an Imperial task force? I wonder how the battle plan would have changed? Perhaps they would have diverted into the Corporate Sector for resources first, before engaging the Imperials?

Anyway, I suppose you make a good point in that Vader would have killed Palpatine long before the Vong entered the picture. And Thrawn would have probably not been in the equation considering he left the Unknown Regions only because of the Emperor's death. Nevertheless, nice thoughts.

reliant
6 September 2002, 05:31 AM
This is kinda dfferent than what the thread is about, but 've always wondered more about how the Yuuzhan Vong would regard the Empire.

In "Traitor" the Vong come right out and say how glad they are that the Empire fell because the Empire would have destroyed them at the first encounter.

Kanner Ra'an
6 September 2002, 07:49 PM
In "Traitor" the Vong come right out and say how glad they are that the Empire fell because the Empire would have destroyed them at the first encounter.

If this were true then why didnt the vong move on to another galaxy. They must have felt they would have some resonable chance of winning or they wouldn't have focus there efforts and resourses on this galaxy.

Grim Fantango
7 September 2002, 06:45 PM
They couldn't go to another galaxy. The Supreme Overlord Caste said that this was "their" galaxy, givin to them by the gods, if they all believed it like they do now, then they woulda been lining op ta die...

Kanner Ra'an
8 September 2002, 07:25 AM
How big is the vong fleet anyway:? i havent noticed any numbers in the books.

Jim Williams
8 September 2002, 07:40 AM
Good questions. It seems the Vong fleet is huge and growing (literally). The New republic fleet is apparently much larger than portrayed in the Black Fleet Crisis. Both sides are taking massive damage and keep on coming back for more.

Kanner Ra'an
8 September 2002, 09:36 AM
In star by star they said they had several thousand ships defending the capital, but it also mentioned that a lot of them were from planetary defense forces.

Nova Spice
8 September 2002, 05:54 PM
How big is the vong fleet anyway i havent noticed any numbers in the books.

I swear I saw figures for the Vong fleet at Coruscant on the internet sometime immediately after the release of Star by Star. If I remember correctly, and this is completely unofficial, it ws somewhere near four million ships invading Coruscant, while the New Republic cobbled together close to five hundred thousand vessels. These figures included starfighters, space stations, coralskippers, landing craft, etc.

I'll see if I can dig up that site. Anyway, the Empire would certainly have at least been able to match the Vong fleets in numbers as opposed to the New Republic. The Imperial policy was quantity over quality, so that would be one thing the Empire would have going for them if they had faced the Vong.

Kanner Ra'an
9 September 2002, 03:39 AM
What is the fleet made up of. do they have more frigates and corvettes like the republic, or more heavy cruisers like the empire?l

Jim Williams
9 September 2002, 11:45 AM
The Vong pretty much have "analog" equivalents for Republic/EU Imperial ships all the way up to Super SDs.

Nova Spice
9 September 2002, 04:30 PM
The New Jedi Order Sourcebook presents some Vong analogs in comparison to Imperial/Republic vessels:

-Kor Chokk Grand Cruiser: equivalent to a Super-class Star Destroyer
-Miid Ro'ik Warship: equivalent to an Imperial-class Star Destroyer
-Chuun M'arh Frigate: equivalent to a Nebulon-B-Frigate
-I'Friil Ma-Nat Corvette: equivalent to a Corellian Corvette
-Yorik-Trema Transport: equivalent to an Assault Transport
-Uro-ik V'alh Battleship: equivalent to a Defender-class Star Destroyer
-A-vek Liluunu Fighter Carrier: equivalent to an Escort Carrier
-Suuv Ban D'Krid Cruiser: equivalent to a Mon Cal Cruiser
-Uumufalh Gunship: equivalent to a Corellian Gunship
-Vua'spar Interdictor: equivalent to an Interdictor Cruiser

Despite the weird names, its interesting how well the Vong ships match common ships in the Empire and New Republic. Although the Vong ships have dovin basals to give them an advantage over the New Republic/Imperial vessels. Now, if only the Empire would roll out an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer....:D

Grim Fantango
9 September 2002, 06:57 PM
There's another Vong Vessel you forgot:

Matalok - Calamari Cruiser Analog (though Boosters Star Destroyer killed two of 'em like nothin, so i'm beginning to doubt their power)

Falanx
14 September 2002, 08:11 PM
I'll admit, along with everyone else, that it seems that the Vong should be getting to the point where we should be seeing at least some reflection of the losses they've taken. If you go by the descriptions from the book than in almost every single one they lost a massive amount of ships, yet the only ones they seem to show a need to conserve is the Kor Chokk Grand Cruisers. They mention that it is because many of them were damaged during the long trek between galaxies.

Then again, the New Republic also seems to always have just enough ships. Really, I guess, their advantages don't really come from the capital ships, but from their fighters which even the Vong admit are much better than coralskippers in Enemy Lines 2. I actually think they only real advantage the Republic has over the Vong is their heroes. Heroes such as the remaining Solos, the Skywalkers, and the remaining Jedi all of whom can account for many Vong casualties.

Anyway I don't think the real question is when will the Vong run out of ships, but when will they run out of men. So far they've been dropping like flies. In some of the books they even used kamikaze frigate analogs, yet they never show any damage from this either. I know they brought their whole civilization to the Star Wars galaxy , but their is a point where the masses upon masses of men becomes unrealistic.

Oops... I seem to have wandered slowly off of the whole Empire vs the Vong topic during my rant but hey it all needed to be said so now I fell better. If anyone has any constructive criticism I'd appreciate it...

Grand Admiral Trez
16 September 2002, 10:45 AM
The Empire will wipe the floor with the Vong once the Vong take a strike at them The empire has Palleon who is Allmost as good as Thrawn


and one more thing what in the sam hill happended to the 3 SSD's that are un accounted for? just those 3 with full compliment of crew would wipe out the vong ASAP look what the Lusaynkya did to them and thats only 1 SSD =-)

Nova Spice
16 September 2002, 04:29 PM
The Empire will wipe the floor with the Vong once the Vong take a strike at them The empire has Palleon who is Allmost as good as Thrawn

During the height of the Empire, yeah I agree, the Imperials would have obliterated the Yuuzhan Vong. Now, during the current NJO storyline, there is no way the Imps would stand a chance against a full-fledged invasion. You saw what happened to Coruscant and the New Republic had hundreds of thousands of vessels in the area. Imagine how easily the Vong would vape a few hundred at Bastion?


and one more thing what in the sam hill happended to the 3 SSD's that are un accounted for? just those 3 with full compliment of crew would wipe out the vong ASAP look what the Lusaynkya did to them and thats only 1 SSD =-)

Good point, the Lusankya sacrificed itself valiantly and managed to destroy many Yuuzhan Vong warships during its tenure at Borleias. I had no idea there were three unaccounted Super Star Destroyers. What were their names and where did you read this? Maybe the Empire has an ace up their sleeves. :D

Kanner Ra'an
17 September 2002, 03:43 PM
During the height of the Empire, yeah I agree, the Imperials would have obliterated the Yuuzhan Vong

I have to disagree with you Nova Spice like i said earlier the alliance was disorganized and ill equiped but beat the Empire, so why can't the Vong. I know someone countered theat by saying that the Imps would have taken the vong more seriously and shouldnt have to worry about gorilla warfare. i think their wrong on both accounts. First, the Empire thought all non-humans were below them, they never wouldn't even conceve that their alien tecnology could beat their mighty Star Destroyers. Second, who says that the Vong wouldn't resort to gorilla tactics. They've adapted to everything the Republic did, why not the empire?

wolverine
18 September 2002, 11:58 AM
<<and one more thing what in the sam hill happended to the 3 SSD's that are un accounted for? just those 3 with full comp>>

The only 1 which is unaccounted for, to my knowledge is the 1 from the black fleet crisis. The only other one i can think MIGHT still be around, is the one from wanted by craken, the guardian..

Ardent
19 September 2002, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
During the height of the Empire, yeah I agree, the Imperials would have obliterated the Yuuzhan Vong. Now, during the current NJO storyline, there is no way the Imps would stand a chance against a full-fledged invasion. You saw what happened to Coruscant and the New Republic had hundreds of thousands of vessels in the area. Imagine how easily the Vong would vape a few hundred at Bastion?

Um, I'm not sure anyone else has noticed this but...the Yuuzhan Vong control Bastion (and likely more of the Imperial sector's planets). The Empire HAS been fighting the Vong, and losing just like the New Republic has. Pellaeon's only real advantage (aside from the cunning one expects from an Imperial Admiral) is his extreme patience. He may have something up his sleeve, but I don't think his fleet alone will have the resources to make it happen based on the sort of attrition every faction is looking at.

I'll reiterate my belief that even at the height of its power the Empire wouldn't be a match for the Yuuzhan Vong because it lacked true heroes. It simply had Fel, Thrawn, Zsinj and a cluster of elevated idols. Neither Fel nor Thrawn would have been particularly worried about seeming heroic (something that's definitely not true of the Skywalker-Solos, no matter what they may claim), the Empire probably wouldn't have rallied outside of Thrawn's fleet.

I agree with Executor Nom Anor's assessment that the Empire would have been a more challenging foe in the grand scheme of military preparedness and the like. But I also agree with his assessment that eventually even the Empire at the height of its power would have fallen.

Besides, subterfuge is part of war. ;)

Marusame
19 September 2002, 12:08 PM
Um, I'm not sure anyone else has noticed this but...the Yuuzhan Vong control Bastion

That's funny, I thought the YV were avoiding the Empire. Last time I glanced at the Galaxy map, they were going around Imperial Space. Was I mistaken? :?

Ardent
19 September 2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Marusame


That's funny, I thought the YV were avoiding the Empire. Last time I glanced at the Galaxy map, they were going around Imperial Space. Was I mistaken? :?

<mutters> I checked again just to make sure -- apparently there's a misprint in one of my copies of Traitor (I have two -- don't ask). Nevermind.

Still, my observation about Pellaeon and the Imperial Remnant Fleet probably would stand nonetheless.

Nova Spice
19 September 2002, 02:01 PM
Um, I'm not sure anyone else has noticed this but...the Yuuzhan Vong control Bastion (and likely more of the Imperial sector's planets).

Whoa! I've read all the novels and have yet to hear about this!? :raised: I know that in my NJOSB that it shows Bastion as colored in yellow (meaning under occupation) but I thought WotC stated it was a misprint. Personally I find this hard to believe since it has yet to be mentioned in the novels, but it is true that when Agamar, Ithor, and Ord Mantell fell, contact with the Remnant became impossible. Perhaps Bastion has fallen, but until I read it with my own eyes, I don't believe it.

And if I had to guess, I would say that the Empire has not been fighting the Vong. More than likely Pellaeon has been rebuilding much of the war machine in anticipation for a Vong attack. Besides, the Yuuzhan Vong fleets have been too busy pushing towards Coruscant to launch any significant attacks against the Remnant.

Darth_Baldran
20 September 2002, 07:08 PM
Besides, about the SSDs, I remember only four of them:

Executor, destroyed on Endor;

Lusankya, captured on Thyferra;

Iron Fist, destroyed on Dathomir;

Razor Kiss, used in deception by Zsinj.

I don't remember if there were others and, in that case, their names.

HI!

Jim Williams
21 September 2002, 03:59 AM
The Yevetha had three of them, but the Imperials that were long-term prisoners of the Yevetha hijacked one or all of them (I still have to go back and research carefully). Their intention was to rejoin the Empire. Haven't heard a peep about them since. I sure hope the NJO folks don't overlook the remnants of the Black Fleet.

Kanner Ra'an
21 September 2002, 04:35 AM
Im not sure that the empire has those SSD. Its not like the empire to have something that big and just sit on it:raised:, but who knows

wolverine
21 September 2002, 08:37 AM
What about torpeedo spheres.... Something like that would do major damage to a vong fleet, especially if they had the torps set to explode when they encountered the basal's Black hole. All that explosive energy from 500 CAPITAL ship proton torps going off! Talk about lighting up the sky!!!

Vega Secure'A
16 September 2003, 11:26 AM
There were actually 6 SSDs minus Lusankya. These could be restored by the Imperial Remanant and sent as a fleet by itself to crush the Vong and Take back Coruscant! OH YEAH! A fleet of 6 SSDs thats like the equivalent of what, 600 Star Destroyers (descriptions state that a single SSD was equivalent to 100 victory destroyers).

Now if I could just find those 6, I had spent a month researching what happened to all the SSD that have been created 12 in all I believe

Rogue Janson
16 September 2003, 12:02 PM
This discussion's a bit academic since the Force Heretic series came out, showing how the Remnant actually fares against the Vong.

I think whoever said an SSD was equivalent to 100 vicstars was probably exaggerating (and why compare it to vicstars?). At most I think I'd say an Executor class SSD would be worth a dozen Impstars, and that's probably pushing it.

Even if the Remnant had found a load of SSDs, it wouldn't necessarily have the resources to refit them for combat duty, or even to man them (with a standard crew of 250,000 each). I do believe discussions elsewhere have established the Empire did have one remaining SSD, but no-one's entirely sure what happens to it.

Remus Lightforce
16 September 2003, 02:44 PM
Filled with juicy spoilers, highlight to read:

<font color=white>Am I the only one who caught the Imperial SSD in Force Heretic I? Leia pointed out that the Remnant was trying to impress them with it.

Also, later on, I think someone mentioned something about the Imperials having Super Star Destroyer <I>Guardian</I>, but I'm not sure.</font color=white>

Rogue Janson
16 September 2003, 03:20 PM
Like I said, it was brought up in another discussion. It's not mentioned again, so no-one's sure what happens to it.

Nova Spice
16 September 2003, 04:38 PM
Actually Remus, the Imperial SSD appeared in Destiny's Way, not Force Heretic I:Remnant.

And the Guardian is a Galactic Alliance SSD. It is the command ship of Cal Omas; it is not an Imperial possession. ;)


There were actually 6 SSDs minus Lusankya. These could be restored by the Imperial Remanant and sent as a fleet by itself to crush the Vong and Take back Coruscant! OH YEAH! A fleet of 6 SSDs thats like the equivalent of what, 600 Star Destroyers (descriptions state that a single SSD was equivalent to 100 victory destroyers).

Hardly Vega. First off, there are only two SSDs left (one in the hands of the Imperial Remnant, one in the hands of the Galactic Alliance). So six SSDs at this point in time isn't going to happen.

Even if the Galactic Alliance could muster that much firepower, it wouldn't be much of a fight. If you sent six SSDs to Yuuzhan'tar, without support craft, you'd be reading the shortest offensive of all time. Six SSDs is about the equivalent to sixty Imperial-class Star Destroyers. The Vong flotilla protecting Yuuzhan'tar would shred that force in less than an hour.

Consider the fact that the New Republic has lost hundreds and hundreds of Imp-class, equivalent, and larger vessels in the war thus far, and you'll realize that six SSDs wouldn't be much of a challenge.

And for factual sake, an SSD is about the equivalent to fifteen Victory class Star Destroyers, not one hundred. ;)

Sorry I had to throw in some corrections here. :D

Vega Secure'A
16 September 2003, 11:13 PM
Found the data! Yes your right Nova Spice. I guess I exclaimed a bit :o

Darthspectre84
17 September 2003, 10:24 AM
6 SSDs alone would not stand a chance cause they would be out flanked and outmanevuered. PLus you seen the tactic the vong do with the blast boulders? they go as close to the enemy and over load their dovin basals causing a huge explosion. I think they did this during the invasion of Coruscant and in Vector Prime.

Plus we have not really been shown the full scope of vong technology...like planetary defenses and so on...

Master Tryka
18 September 2003, 02:57 PM
I skimmed thru this, and I'm sure I'll repeat alot which was already said. (this is assuming either Luke turned in ROTJ, or was destroyed, and Vader and Palpy are still in power)

First of, the Empire is ruthless. We must remember that. Ok,the Emeperor is still around, and probably younger (seeing as he clones himself and what not). Vader would be getting up there in age, but by now it is possible he could have learned how to completely heal himself and whatnot(SotE). Also, Luke, and/or Leia, has probably been turned to the Dark and would be uber-powerful (The Force Lightning works on Vong, as we see from both Jacen and Jaina). There are legions of unopposed death-dealing technologies that the Empire would have been expanding and improving on. They most certainly would have adpated shielding technology from the Rebellion, if not re-built all of there ships to be Sun Crusher-esque. That armor would have been everywhere i suspect.

So they would have ultra-powerful Sith Lords, far superior tech then the NR, and ruthlessness that would be key to winning this war.

And if all else fails, Alpha Red. They would not have hesitated at all to use a bio-Super Weapon inorder to win swiftly and decisively.

Darthspectre84
19 September 2003, 04:43 AM
Hehe i prepared for such an argument :)

Firstly, the Vong are even more ferocious and ruthless then the Imperials. Like a number of Imperials some do feel compassion and are noble people. The Vong their cutlure si that what they think is honourable is....uhm excruiatingly painful for others. And One Yuuzhan Vong warrior has enough combat experience of 8 imperial officers. And they could infiltrate enemy facilities while the Imperials could not infiltrate vong. Hell NR cant infiltrate vong society properlly.

Secondly, Force lightning does not work on vong cause theya re seen outside the force. I am only assuming that if you manage to see through the force then all the force powers work.

Thirdly, the bio-tech of the vong is very effective if not countered. They are able to take down planetary shields easily and drop moons on their home world. Plus thinking that imperial TIE's did not have shields till much later. While Vong did, so TIE vs Skip = Skip winning. So that means only larger ships could take a skip out. Yammosks could rip knowledge from their enemies mind for their vong masters. And weapons liek the sun crushers torpedoes need to hit a star, vong tech detects gravitic changes and could swallow the weapon ion a baclk hole.

As for Alpha Red :) we dont know all about the vong, they could be prepared for bio-warfare. Cause it is known that back long ago the vong would fight ehmselves, so Shapers vs Shapers. Bio-weapons. so...the only thing keeping the vong from fully utilising bio-warfare is the warrior caste desire for honour through combat

Wedge in Red2
19 September 2003, 08:14 AM
Darthspectre84, your argument has more holes in it that swiss cheese ;).


Originally posted by Darthspectre84
And One Yuuzhan Vong warrior has enough combat experience of 8 imperial officers.

Says who? Where'd you come up with the number 8 from?

I think the comparison between Vong Warriors and Imperial Officers is irrelevant. The Imperial Fleet, under the guidance of the Emperor, would kick the ass of the Vong fleet, making the Vong warriors redundant. Especially with the addition of the Sun Crusher, the 2nd Death Star, and TIE Defenders.



And they could infiltrate enemy facilities while the Imperials could not infiltrate vong. Hell NR cant infiltrate vong society properlly.

And your point is? Theoretically, Imperial security would be tighter than NR, although it's demonstrated in the movies that it's pretty crap. But seriously, how much damage can a few infiltrators do? They're going to take out the Imperial command structure? I don't think so, a liberal dose of Noghri bodyguards should prevent that. The Emperor and Vader will be able to detect their absense in the Force, and whoop their ass. I don't know what the big deal is about infiltrators.



Secondly, Force lightning does not work on vong cause theya re seen outside the force.


Well, Jaina seemed to use it just fine in Star by Star. It's point and click. No need to sense them at all.



Plus thinking that imperial TIE's did not have shields till much later.


Um, TIE Defenders first appeared in the X-Wing Novels. Which was around the time of the Thrawn trilogy. That's well before the Vong attack. With the resources of the entire Empire available, these would be rushed into mass production at the first sign of Vong attack.



Yammosks could rip knowledge from their enemies mind for their vong masters.


They're doing that already against the NR. The benefit being that the Emperor and Vader probably tended to not let their officers in on a lot of secrets.

Sometimes thinking while your preparing for an argument is a good idea... :D

Jon

Darthspectre84
19 September 2003, 11:44 AM
Your right :)
But you just answered your own question TIE Defenders were AROUND the time of Thrawn Triology which was after the Emperors death. The Empire rethinked its strategies after the Rebel Alliance was winning alot. The Emperor prefered to use numbers against his enemies as seen with TIE Fighter tactics. He did not really care if any survived.

As for Noghri bodyguards...uhm i think the NR has done that as well. They did not turn out alive much. Best they did was stall a Yuuzhan vong. Not Death Commandoes, but that would be difficult cause you need to INFILTRATE vong soceity

As for how much an infiltrator can do damage now that has a big hole in it with saying that they cant do much. Infiltrators could sabotage shield generators, report on enemy movements, use traitors to stage a coup. So infiltrators have many many uses.

As for my estimate about 8 Imperials agaisnt 1 Vong. That is not an exact estimate or anything i just put it in ther eon this basis. That imperials a number of them tended to be cowards. Not all but a number of them, they were greedy and power hungry yet lazy and cowards. A general member of the warrior caste would not run away form combat. Also suicide tactics are something Imperial pilots would refrain from doing, Vong on the other would do it without a second thought (this is not counting execution from higher officers by the Imperials). And lets say a high level imperial officer was caught he would not commit suicide he would try to bargain, Vong would commit suicide rather then be caught alive.
So i guess the swiss cheese has less holes then thought really...

Rogue Janson
19 September 2003, 11:59 AM
For reference, TIE defenders were first developed following the Battle of Hoth. How far a way they were from an efficient production model is unclear though. Considering the Empire never took up large scale production, what production secrets they had developed may have died with Admiral Zaarin.

Wedge in Red2
22 September 2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Darthspectre84

But you just answered your own question TIE Defenders were AROUND the time of Thrawn Triology which was after the Emperors death.


I was working on the assumption that we were talking about "the empire wins, the Vong attack still occurs 25 years after RotJ". Which means TIE Defenders will have been around and in service for about 15 years.

Of course, there's an argument that if the Empire won the Battle of Endor that there would be no need for the TIE Defenders, and that they would stop production. However, I don't think the Rebellion would have been totally destroyed. Reduced to 5% of it's former number, maybe, but not totally destroyed. Heck, by the time of the Vong attack they might have built up again and be causing a real pain in the Empires butt...



As for Noghri bodyguards...uhm i think the NR has done that as well. They did not turn out alive much. Best they did was stall a Yuuzhan vong. Not Death Commandoes, but that would be difficult cause you need to INFILTRATE vong soceity


I didn't think they had. Leia had Noghri bodyguards, but that was because of her being The Lady Vader and all that. As far as I was aware the rest of the NR did not use the Noghri (although I may call in Nova Spice for a confirmation on this).

As for the Death Commandoes, I didn't think Infiltration was their only modus operandi. Look how they attacked Luke/Leia/Han in the Thrawn Trilogy on the planet I can't remember (the marketplace fight, if that means anything). It was an ambush, but I wouldn't class that as infiltration.



As for how much an infiltrator can do damage now that has a big hole in it with saying that they cant do much. Infiltrators could sabotage shield generators, report on enemy movements, use traitors to stage a coup. So infiltrators have many many uses.


It's debatable that the Empire would use Shield Generators. Do we see any Imperial planets during Imperial reign (other than Coruscant) that used Shield Generators? I thought it was more a case of the NR using them. The Empire, IMO, would not invest heavily in defensive technology liek shield generators. Why spend your money on that, when you can buy more Star Destroyers? Sure, Star Destroyers aren't as good at defending planets, but you can't use planetary shields to vape a dissident population, and heck, in Imperial mindset, who really cares if a bunch of civilians get wipes out? The Imps would more likely use small scale shielding on their military outposts.



As for my estimate about 8 Imperials agaisnt 1 Vong. That is not an exact estimate or anything i just put it in ther eon this basis.


What I'm saying is that I don't think a comparison, or any sort of ratio, is valid as an assessment of how the forces would fair against each other. It's like, for example, saying 1 American soldier is worth 3 Iraqi's. That doesn't take into account the aerial support the American would have, the armoured divisions, etc. It is, in essence, a meaningless ratio, and one that you've pulled out of thin air.



So i guess the swiss cheese has less holes then thought really...

Nope, as far as I can see they're still there.

Jon

Ardent
22 September 2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Wedge in Red2
I was working on the assumption that we were talking about "the empire wins, the Vong attack still occurs 25 years after RotJ". Which means TIE Defenders will have been around and in service for about 15 years.

The problem is, the Yuuzhan Vong orchestrated a lot of the failures of the Empire, particularly the fledgeling empires following the death of Palpatine. They were actively seeking the fall of the Empire to create a galaxy more easily conquered. Who knows if their assault would have occured at the same time had the Empire not fallen? I mean, the Yuuzhan Vong were engaging the Chiss back when Thrawn first came into the Imperial fold (e.g. in the RotE era).


Of course, there's an argument that if the Empire won the Battle of Endor that there would be no need for the TIE Defenders, and that they would stop production. However, I don't think the Rebellion would have been totally destroyed. Reduced to 5% of it's former number, maybe, but not totally destroyed. Heck, by the time of the Vong attack they might have built up again and be causing a real pain in the Empires butt...

I doubt the Empire would ever stop production on a military tool, but you're getting sidetracked. One starfighter would not have made or broken the galaxy's chances in a war of attrition like this. The ability to produce, both soldiers and armaments, would be the key. Which is something the Empire had in spades where the New Republic was digging around in deuces.


I didn't think they had. Leia had Noghri bodyguards, but that was because of her being The Lady Vader and all that. As far as I was aware the rest of the NR did not use the Noghri (although I may call in Nova Spice for a confirmation on this).

Vader and Grand Admiral Thrawn's commands were the only Imperial commands to make use of Noghri. The New Republic Special Operations teams occasionally boast Noghri members, but the Noghri aren't terribly involved in the politics of the galaxy at large.


As for the Death Commandoes, I didn't think Infiltration was their only modus operandi. Look how they attacked Luke/Leia/Han in the Thrawn Trilogy on the planet I can't remember (the marketplace fight, if that means anything). It was an ambush, but I wouldn't class that as infiltration.

The Death Commandos had a singular MO: kill or die. They were teams of highly trained assassins, effectively, and were supposed to bring down their target or die. Either in combat or by their own hand. Stealth is just something that comes natural to Noghri, so their "infiltration" and "ambush" skills are simply a facet of their animal instincts. Their MO is still kill or die.


It's debatable that the Empire would use Shield Generators. Do we see any Imperial planets during Imperial reign (other than Coruscant) that used Shield Generators? I thought it was more a case of the NR using them. The Empire, IMO, would not invest heavily in defensive technology liek shield generators. Why spend your money on that, when you can buy more Star Destroyers? Sure, Star Destroyers aren't as good at defending planets, but you can't use planetary shields to vape a dissident population, and heck, in Imperial mindset, who really cares if a bunch of civilians get wipes out? The Imps would more likely use small scale shielding on their military outposts.

Most of the Core Worlds boast shield generators, as do a lot of the Mid Rim worlds. Obviously, they don't make a heck of a lot of difference to the Yuuzhan Vong. But Jon's got the Imperial mentality right. Who cares about a population? The resources are what's important.


What I'm saying is that I don't think a comparison, or any sort of ratio, is valid as an assessment of how the forces would fair against each other. It's like, for example, saying 1 American soldier is worth 3 Iraqi's. That doesn't take into account the aerial support the American would have, the armoured divisions, etc. It is, in essence, a meaningless ratio, and one that you've pulled out of thin air.

And rendered entirely inaccurate on a person-to-person basis. You can't quantify the skill of any two individuals and determine that that is the skill of every person on their respective side (although militaries often try to do this -- it's just a misuse and a misunderstanding of statistical analysis...aka politician speak).

Nova Spice
22 September 2003, 11:41 AM
I didn't think they had. Leia had Noghri bodyguards, but that was because of her being The Lady Vader and all that. As far as I was aware the rest of the NR did not use the Noghri (although I may call in Nova Spice for a confirmation on this).

You're correct, Jon. The Noghri are not used by conventional military units. The only known example of Noghri acting as commando units was when Corran, Jacen, and Ganner journeyed to Garqi in Dark Tide II: Ruin. This was a special instance which called for a small, stealthy strike team. Naturally, Jedi and Noghri are prime candidates for this type of operation.


Firstly, the Vong are even more ferocious and ruthless then the Imperials. Like a number of Imperials some do feel compassion and are noble people. The Vong their cutlure si that what they think is honourable is....uhm excruiatingly painful for others. And One Yuuzhan Vong warrior has enough combat experience of 8 imperial officers. And they could infiltrate enemy facilities while the Imperials could not infiltrate vong. Hell NR cant infiltrate vong society properlly.

I wouldn't, as Jon and Ardent pointed out, try to make comparison ratios between Vong warriors and Imperial officers. There is no comparison. :)

A much better comparison would be between Vong warriors and Imperial stormtroopers, since they both fulfill the same role for their respective factions. Though I still wouldn't try to compare these two groups, as you could make a case for a 1 to 1 ratio, 3 to 1, etc.

On the topic of infiltration, this is not something done by the Yuuzhan Vong warrior caste. Typically infiltration is left to the intendents or the deception sect. And I wouldn't make a hasty generalization on the Imperial's infiltration abilities, or the New Republic's. While neither side could have blended in with Vong culture, both the Imps and New Reps contained soldiers specialized in avoiding detection. The Storm Commandoes and New Republic Observers come immediately to mind.


Secondly, Force lightning does not work on vong cause theya re seen outside the force. I am only assuming that if you manage to see through the force then all the force powers work.

Actually, this is one of the only powers that seems to work on the Yuuzhan Vong. As demonstrated by Jaina and Jacen in Star by Star, Traitor, and Destiny's Way.


The problem is, the Yuuzhan Vong orchestrated a lot of the failures of the Empire, particularly the fledgeling empires following the death of Palpatine. They were actively seeking the fall of the Empire to create a galaxy more easily conquered. Who knows if their assault would have occured at the same time had the Empire not fallen? I mean, the Yuuzhan Vong were engaging the Chiss back when Thrawn first came into the Imperial fold (e.g. in the RotE era).

A good point. A very good point. ;)

Ardent
22 September 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
...both the Imps and New Reps contained soldiers specialized in avoiding detection. The Storm Commandoes and New Republic Observers come immediately to mind.

Just a quick correction. The NR Observers Corp was assembled and tasked with maintaining liaison positions with RA/NR-sanctioned privateers (and smugglers...and mercenaries). The NR operatives most often trained in infiltration techniques are the SpecForce Infiltrators, the Special Operators of the Foster Corps and members of General Cracken's spy network (and the Bothan spynet if you care to assess it as a NR asset).

Darthspectre84
23 September 2003, 09:31 AM
I never mentioned that the NR used Noghri Death Commandoes, i was saying that the Vong would capture Imperial officers to take the knowledge. Wedge replied that grunts would not know anything serious and the higer more important officers would be guarded by Noghri. And i said that the NR only used Noghri to guard Lady vader (who is quite high to them at least), and the noghri lost alot. At best they stalled them.

Solo666
26 September 2003, 11:05 AM
about what's to stop more from coming if the Imps won? You think Palpatine, Daala,Vader or Tarkin would have hesitated to destroy a galaxy with Sun Crushers?

Jedi Master Talon
29 September 2003, 06:55 AM
No the Empire wouldn't win because like Han Solo said they'd make some superweapon and then name it the Nostril of Palphatine and screw up on a critical area and a YV pilot would blow it up in 3 seconds. The Empire would have failed because they are stubborn and would change tactics. You see that in the books they need the Alliance's help to win at Yaga Minor.

Josou
4 October 2003, 01:38 AM
The Empire would win hands down.

Remember the New Republic didnt keep sector fleets, they organisaed thier military into Regional Fleets giving them a much small military then the Empire.

I mean three sector groups (24 Imperial Star Destroyers and 1,600 other combet starships) are about the same size as a New Republic Fleet. The Empire need only send about eight sector groups and that would be suficient to wipe out those alien scum.

Josou
:emperor:

Solo666
4 October 2003, 08:04 AM
Actually, I think it may be a tie. Palpatine and Shimmra both throw away pilots, and especially underlings. A war between the two would leave mabe two inhabitable planets left in the galaxy, and the two weakened parties would simply be crushed by the Rebels

Rogue Janson
5 October 2003, 07:44 AM
Actually, I think it may be a tie. Palpatine and Shimmra both throw away pilots, and especially underlings. A war between the two would leave mabe two inhabitable planets left in the galaxy, and the two weakened parties would simply be crushed by the Rebels
I don't think in this situation the Rebels would be in the picture, but if you take them out, I think it's a really interesting idea. Seeing as how neither side is going to surrender, you'd think a tie would be impossible. But then consider what the YV did to their own galaxy, destroying planets and rendering it largely uninhabitable and ruined.

Not that I necessarily think in purely logical terms it would happen - the Empire probably would have miliary superiority - but it's a great vision of how things could happen (could make a great campaign setting - the two sides trying to scratch together resources, barely able to fight one another in a shattered galaxy.)

Darthspectre84
5 October 2003, 09:21 AM
Axtually we have not seen uhm Shimrras personal strategies cause remember that all the war was basically planned by Tsavong Lah. Shimrra was angry that Tsavong Lah was wasting troops.

But it would be interesting to see how the thing goes..

Solo666
27 October 2003, 01:47 PM
after what shimmra has said about tsavong lah, he may b a big danger to the empire. at least under palpatine's command. Thrawn could still win