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View Full Version : The Revelations of Traitor (SPOILERS)



Nova Spice
31 July 2002, 05:56 PM
After reading Traitor by Matthew Stover, I found myself wondering what exactly Vergere was saying to Jacen about the Force not having sides. It seems to contradict what has been in the films, but nevertheless it may have some bearing. I came away from the novel with three questions:

-How will Jacen's new understanding of the Force affect him and the Jedi Knights?

-What is the secret to discovering the reason why the Vong cannot be sensed in the Force? (Jacen's hammer analogy may be a sneak-peek to an upcoming revelation in Destiny's Way)

-Will the death of a certain Jedi Knight in Traitor have any significance down the road?

Those of you who read Traitor know which Jedi died. :( Anyway, these were just some questions I wanted to throw out and see if anyone else had any thoughts on the matter.

Rouge8
31 July 2002, 06:09 PM
Vergre has had a lot of time to think.
I'll answer more tomorrow when I buy and finish the book.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
31 July 2002, 07:01 PM
Well I think that the first two questions are connected so here are my thoughts:

Vergere has spend a considerable amount of time with the YV and, as she and Jacen described them, they are fanatics. She know that the way the galaxy was being run back in the day wasn't good so she saw what the YV wanted to do and decided to work toward her own ends of creating a better galaxy. Thus her use of Jacen to show him the Truth of things and how to 'see' the YV in the Force is toward that end since she now has the ability to do so using Jacen.

And I don't think that the death of you know how will have a huge impact on the storyline, but it will have a minor one.

phoenixbrose
1 August 2002, 11:52 AM
Here are my thoughts on this:

First question - The revelations Jacen has come to and the things Vergere has taught him will shatter everything the Jedi once believed if they accept it. Luke, having tasted something that doesn't exist will really have a lot to consider, but I think he will understand and accept it.

Second one - this was sort-of answered by the book. But not enough. Look for more in the books to come I bet.

Third one - I think it will have a significant impact on the morale of the Yuuzhan Vong warrior caste, and on their impressions of Jedi in general, but will have a minor impact on the Jedi Order and New Rebell... I mean New Republic remnants. :D

Nova Spice
2 August 2002, 09:29 AM
Hmm..I guess I missed the whole "sensing the Vong with the Force" altogether in Traitor. From what I read, the only thing that was explained was when Jacen presented his hammer theory.

Was there something in the novel I missed that explained in detail how the Vong can be sensed? 8o

phoenixbrose
2 August 2002, 09:38 AM
Sort of. I guess it wasn't "with" the Force so much as it was "with the assistance of" the Force. It was because of the empathic connection he made through the Slaveseed in his chest. Hence, he was able to communicate telepathicly with the World Brain and the Amphistaff grove, and was able to detect the Vong themselves to some degree.

Christo
2 August 2002, 04:35 PM
What I'm really wondering is if Vergere is "right" (about the Force). I mean, if she is...it just wouldn't feel Star Wars-y to me. That's no comment on the novel itself, it's just that it wouldn't seem quite right IMHO. Plus, it seems like it would invalidate a lot of stuff if there is no dark side.

Possible spoilers for <i>Destiny's Way</i>...













In the <i>Destiny's Way</i> preview on the LFL site (<a href="http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/2002/05/news20020510.html">over here</a>), there's a reference to "a weapon that may unleash the power the dark side". Huh? If there's no dark side then what's up with that? There's also an "of" missing in that sentence.

I'm looking forward to <i>Destiny's Way</i>. I've enjoyed Williams' non-Star Wars books, and I think he'll do a good job with this one.

Nova Spice
5 August 2002, 07:36 PM
Well thanks for the responses and the input. ;) I've come to decide that Traitor may be the sneak preview of how the series will end. The new way of perceiving the Force, the death of Coruscant, the death of Ganner; these things were so important I feel Traitor will be the book that will have the most influence on the outcome of the series.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next with Destiny's Way. I'm already looking forward to the book after reading the preview. The Empire is long overdue to enter the war and its good to know the Remnant is going to show the Vong how they deals with alien scum! :p :D

Jim Williams
6 August 2002, 05:37 AM
I for one enjoyed the book. That being said, I do not like Vergere's revalation that there is no dark side, just the Force. I can be okay with that, and I even play a Jedi who believes the Force left to its own workings is only "good", but Vergere makes it seem that the dark side is only a product of a Jedi's guilt, unclear feelings, etc. She basically says that a Jedi can do anything as long as they know "who they are".

Grrrrr.

Like Yoda and the wisdom of thousands of preceding Jedi Masters MISSED this? I'm all for the idea that any organization can become inefficient, self-serving, etc. But the Jedi? The Force requires them to be too honest with themselves and each other. A dirty little secret? No way.

There is a dark side, and I think Vergere has come up with a novel way of seducing the intellectual Jacen to it. But I shudder to think of what the story arc will show instead.

1) If Jacen can teach the Jedi to communicate with YV "equipment", they're toast. If they learn to sense the Vong in the Force, they're baked toast.

2) The key to sensing them is that whole spectrum idea. A Jedi will have to unlearn what she has learned and look for the Vong with new eyes.

3) I think the death of a certain Jedi, who in his last conversation with "that guy" learned more about his Jedi self than in his entire training, will show the YV that their belief system must incorporate the Jedi's perverted methodology. they may not like it, but they'll have to respect it. And that, my friends, will lead to the cracking of their fanaticism.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
12 August 2002, 11:44 AM
My new question is this: How does this new definition or the Force explain the tree on Dagobah?

phoenixbrose
12 August 2002, 11:59 AM
Psychic residue left from the death of one who was dark as well? That's the first thing that pops to mind. It's believed that that exists here in this world - especially in places where people died violently (Alcatraz comes to mind mainly on that). Why couldn't that exist in the GFFA, considering that it is steeped deeper in Mysticism than we are in the "real" world?

This is accepting Vergere's words as true, of course. I do want to wait a bit to pass that judgement though...;)

Nova Spice
12 August 2002, 04:12 PM
I tend to think the tree on Dagobah was exactly as phoenix put it. The cave and the tree on Dagobah weren't of the dark side; Matthew Stover basically said this in an interview at www.theforce.net. What Luke went through was simply the dark side of the person who died there. (I'm thinking Dooku?)

The more I think about it, the more I come to two conclusions:

1). Vergere is actually right and we've had a major breakthrough in everything we as fans know about the Force.

or

2). Vergere has been with the Vong so long, that she is outright lying to Jacen and is basically dark herself.

As I said before, like the book or not, things are starting to heat up and get interesting. Now, its time for that ailing hero Ackbar to show the Vong the true meaning of the word: tactics. :D :p

Rouge8
12 August 2002, 06:43 PM
That Dark Jedi (Jeedai) was a Bphfashh.

Kas'ir Faywind
12 August 2002, 06:51 PM
Without even reading the book ill ask this. Could it be just a Dark Jedi try to convince people this so they just become consumed by the darkside?

Corr Terek
13 August 2002, 10:29 AM
That Dark Jedi (Jeedai) was a Bphfashh.

I could be wrong myself, Rouge8, but I think you're wrong on that one. As best I can remember, the Dark Jedi that caused trouble in the Bpfaashi system were just that, Dark Jedi. They showed up, caused a lot of trouble, got their tails kicked by the Jedi, and left. Well, the few that were still in the condition to leave left, anyway.

Anyway, this whole "Unifying Force" thing sounds suspiciously like situation ethics -- "What's wrong for you may not be wrong for me". I highly doubt the Force is like that.

Jim Williams
13 August 2002, 10:43 AM
Hmmm, we might be setting ourselves up here. I believe the Bpwhatchamacallit Jedi reference was in Heir to the Empire and not substantiated. But the cave was used in the movies, and I think GL has plans for that cave that won't wash well with Vergere's line of thought.

I agree with Corr. Vergere's lying, wrong, or the Force now allows situational ethics. Any of three is, unfortunately for us, quite possible.
It's not good for a Jedi to be "filled with joy" as he slaughters Vong by the dozens. Cool scene? Yes. Dark side points? Yes. Or no?

I'm not upset if Vergere is correct (welllll, okay I am), the NJO authors need to expand the EU to fit their imaginations. Everyone else just needs to watch the movies. We gamers need to know everything.

For example, I'm always constantly surprised that some of my work colleagues don't know what a Star Destroyer is...

Sullen
13 August 2002, 02:45 PM
After reading the book in four hours(it was really that good) I've come to the same revelation that vergere came too:
The Truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it.

Why is it that only emotions lead to the dark side? That as long as we are in control of our emotions( "There is no emotion") we are jedi, or as vergere says again:
" What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself... [t]o be a jedi is to control your passion... but Jedi control limits power. Greatness...requires the surrender of control... if your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."

Always fear leads to anger, anger to hate, hate to suffering, the dark side. Why would the Force, which itself bind all things, have "sides"? There are no true dualities in nature, just superficial ones we make up to help us understand the world. Unlike duct tape, the force is not a tool. To be heretical, it simply is. The duality merely comes from humanity(or in this case from sentience)

As far as the movies go, we never actually see a true Jedi-training. Remember, Luke was trained as a weapon, not as a jedi. He was lied to, by his masters, in order that he would be pointed in the right direction. Anikin himself was trained not by a master, but by a knight. As Luke continually points out in the EU, "Teaching while Learning" is the best way to corrupt a pupil, to destroy a true sense in the force.

Maybe the dead grandson of a dead dark jedi said it best...

the force is one... it encompasses all opposites truth and lies, life and death, new republic and yuuzhan vong. light and dark and good and evil. they're all each other, because each thing and everything is the same thing. the force is one.

Nova Spice
14 August 2002, 06:22 PM
Nicely worded Sullen; that was eloquently put. Kudos! :D

I am of the opinion that Traitor did not contradict the films and have been of this opinion since I read the novel two weeks ago. The book was great IMO; it really marked a truly ground-breaking event for the NJO that I had been anticipating for some time. I imagine more events will soon be popping up as the series comes to its height!

Keep them coming Ballantine! :)

Codym
1 September 2002, 04:51 PM
The passages in Traitor don't really contrict anything that much, as it has alway been explained that there is The Force, and it has a light and darkside. Just like nature. The fact that the darkness within influences it doesn't surprise me at the least.

The other thing to concider is that Jacen is taught this by a fully fledged Dark Jedi. Vergere has proven that her loyalties lie only to the Jedi, with the Vong themselves a close second, and she has actively helped the Vong murder millions of innocent civillians without remorse. Explaining that because she doesn't feel guilty means that she is still lightside is an indication of exactly how Darkside she really is. Yes her teachings will help Jacen and the Jedi Knights, but other than that, she is happy to let everyone else die in the horrible ways because they are inferior to her.

Vergere is a insanely deluded character, much like Palpatine in RotJ. How many of his claims did you believe?

Nova Spice
1 September 2002, 07:26 PM
The other thing to concider is that Jacen is taught this by a fully fledged Dark Jedi.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming or bashing you at all, but what?! :raised: :raised:

I've read every NJO novel and I don't think there is much evidence to go by saying that Vergere is a "fully-fledged" Dark Jedi. I haven't seen her use a Force Grip on anyone or have Force Lightning zip from her avian talons? In fact, Jacen is more of a Dark Jedi than Vergere from what's been read in the novels.


Vergere has proven that her loyalties lie only to the Jedi, with the Vong themselves a close second, and she has actively helped the Vong murder millions of innocent civillians without remorse.

What civilians? Are you talking about the slaves in the seedship? If so, there really isn't much a lone Jedi can do to save them. If Vergere had acted to attempt to save these people, then she'd have been killed and Jacen would never have escaped from the Yuuzhan Vong. In the long run, Vergere did the right thing. Although I do understand where you're coming from with this statement, I hardly think its proof that she is evil.


Vergere is a insanely deluded character, much like Palpatine in RotJ. How many of his claims did you believe?

On the contrary, Vergere has proven she has the wisdom of a Mace Windu or Ki-Adi Mundi. IMO, she is hardly deluded. I'd agree that her point of view is abstract and perhaps a bit hazy, but she isn't deluded or insane by any means. Vergere is definitely no Emperor Palpatine!

I must say you have a very interesting take on Vergere. Its good to hear from those of opposing points of view every now and then. ;) :D

I look forward to your response!

Codym
1 September 2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice


Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming or bashing you at all, but what?! :raised: :raised:.

I've read every NJO novel and I don't think there is much evidence to go by saying that Vergere is a "fully-fledged" Dark Jedi. I haven't seen her use a Force Grip on anyone or have Force Lightning zip from her avian talons? In fact, Jacen is more of a Dark Jedi than Vergere from what's been read in the novels.

I'll be the first to admit Jacen was a wishy-washy character until Balance Point, but some who advocates pacifism over violence a Dark Jedi? Your take is more interesting than mine. As for Vergere, using Force Grip and Lightning are not the only qualifications for being a dark jedi (and I've cringed each time the lighning has shown up in the books - the biggest plot hole in the entire series.) Her attitude to civillians, the fact she continually gives the Vong accurate stategic information against the galaxy, and her torturing and manipulation of Jacen, all comes down to the Ends Justifies The Means attitude that a Dark Jedi hold so dearly. Her only positive trait is that she will risk her life to help other Jedi, but to me that's the exact same elitism that Vong themselves hold so dear.



What civilians? Are you talking about the slaves in the seedship? If so, there really isn't much a lone Jedi can do to save them. If Vergere had acted to attempt to save these people, then she'd have been killed and Jacen would never have escaped from the Yuuzhan Vong. In the long run, Vergere did the right thing. Although I do understand where you're coming from with this statement, I hardly think its proof that she is evil.

A true lightside Jedi would die before aiding the Vong, not hand them the keys to Coruscant. Again, Vergere has been in the position to save many on several occasions and has always chosen not to act unless another Jedi was involved. After all, she certainly had no intentions of saving Han in the Agents Of Choas duology until she found out he knew Luke, and then went willingly back to the Vong afterwards. And remember, she also only gave enough of the plague cure to help Mara, the only Jedi infected, even though thousands were dying from it. I'm not suggesting she should have cried gallons of tears to save them, but the least she could have done was stick around and help.



On the contrary, Vergere has proven she has the wisdom of a Mace Windu or Ki-Adi Mundi. IMO, she is hardly deluded. I'd agree that her point of view is abstract and perhaps a bit hazy, but she isn't deluded or insane by any means. Vergere is definitely no Emperor Palpatine!

Unfortunately, if she is not deluded, she is then completely evil. I prefer deluded, as I hope the character (who, despite all this, I do like) is redeemable. Her wisdom, much like Mace's in AotC (he'd did constantly defend Dooku) is a point of view, and while she definately saved Jacen on Coruscant, could she not have also been secretly help the refugees as well? Or better yet, feed the New Republic valuable information that could save countless lives.



I must say you have a very interesting take on Vergere. Its good to hear from those of opposing points of view every now and then. ;) :D

I look forward to your response!

Glad to promote conversation, and I don't think you're nuts or insane despite some of the fierceness in my arguements. I'm interested in seeing were the NJO goes, and what the final fate of Vergere will be.

Marcus Malos
13 September 2002, 07:59 AM
My thoughts are thus:

Vergere seems to be playing the Ben Kenobi style role with the "certain point of view" way of looking at the force.

Having read most the EU books it comes accross that Luke was really only a tool to remove the emperor and to do that he had to take the occasional walk on the darkside.

Jacen appears to be the new "luke" and the references to the pain and struggle that forged luke into what he needed to be to deal with the Empire (ignoring the results in the Dark Empire series).

Personally I think Vergere will be killed off soon.

Also by torturing Jacen she was using him as a weapon against the Vong, she kept him alive and orchestrated the whole world brain affair saving 1000's of lives. now a Jedi probably would have let him kill off the last brain but Vergere didn't instead Vergere gambled on what Jacen would do later (a far more crippling blow to the Vong).

BrianDavion
13 September 2002, 03:04 PM
re the whole nature of the force as vergre reveals it. I gots two words from you guys. straight out of power of the jedi...

Potenium Heresy.

Reed
23 September 2002, 10:36 AM
I believe that Vergere may be a little KOO-KOO from being stuck with the Yuuzhan Vong for so long. She may very well be lying to Jacen to get him to take her side.

Saying that there is no dark side sounds quite a bit like something a Sith or Dark Jedi would do to bring someone over. Plus, to say there is no dark side in the Force, only in the person is to say that Anakin Skywalker was inherately evil because it wasn't the dark side that turned him into Darth Vader. It is to say that Anakin and Darth Vader are one person and not two sides to one personality.

I don't think that Anakin Skywalker is evil, its the dark side that eventually corrupted him into being Darth Vader making him evil. When someone falls to the dark side it is almost as if they have died and are replaced by a polar opposite of themselves because Anakin Skywalker is a good person and Darth Vader is evil.

I think that the whole thing that the Force is One is cool, but to say that there is no dark side is to contradict the whole Skywalker story. I would like to think the Force does have a dark side and a light side but that it also includes a much wider spectrum. Look at the Jenseraai (hopefully I spelled it right) they were created from Sith doctrines but they wielded their powers to defend themselves which didn't make them evil. As Yoda said "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack." that's what prevented the Jenseraai from becoming an enclave of Dark Jedi.

I explain the whole thing about Ganner being joyous when killing Yuuzhan Vong wasn't from the killing but from actually killing them to defend Jacen and from being one with the Force. Just like Anakin Solo in Star by Star before he died. Anakin became one with the Force and slaughtered tons upon tons of Yuuzhan Vong to defend his friends and loved ones.

To me, there has to be a dark side.

Tramp
10 October 2002, 02:56 PM
The thing you're missing reed is that the Darks Side isn't so much and external power that makes the person evil, it's an internal one. This can even be backed up in the movies. Remember what Yoda says to Luke in ESB: "Anger. Fear. Agression. The Dark Side are they ." He's not saying that these emotions come from the Dark Side; he's telling Luke that they are the Dark Side. The Dark Side is just that; it's the dark side of ourselves. When we act on our hate and anger we give in to our own darker natures. as we keep on doing that, it gets easier and easier to do so until we are consumed by our own hate. This isn't some external power controlling you, it's your own darker nature. That is what the Dark Side is. As this applies to the Force; it's using your darkest unrestrained emotions to fuel your use of the Force and thus corrupting and yourself at the same time. The book Star Wars: the Magic of Myth summed it up nicely by saying that if you look at the Light Side and Dark Side up close, they look like two seperate and opposing forces. However, step back and you see that they're no more than two sides of the one whole that is the Force; both of which are internal parts of ourselves not external entities vying for control of our minds. That is what Vergere meant. She never said that the Dark Side didn't exsist at all, she said that it was your own Dark Side that corrupted you by giving in to raw emotion and anger, not an outside power.

Reed
15 October 2002, 12:54 PM
I understand what you're saying Tramp. I do believe what you say is true. I never said the dark side was an outside force. I was just disagreeing with the fact that Vergere said there is no dark side and that if there is a dark side it is only the darkness of your own fears and doubts. I think it relates to that but I believe that eventually at one point A person is so consumed by the dark side that they are no longer themselves. What I ment by this is when one gives into anger, fear, and aggression the dark side then takes hold. You are no longer in control of yourself, but under the control of your own dark emotions. These dark thoughts and emotions can eventually take control and you are but a pawn of your own dark side.

Now that I have read a little bit into Destiny's Way though, I now understand more about Vergere's point. I merely somewhat misunderstood her point of view. I still have to get used to some of the more extremeties of all that "different point of view" stuff.

Ardent
18 October 2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Reed
I understand what you're saying Tramp. I do believe what you say is true. I never said the dark side was an outside force. I was just disagreeing with the fact that Vergere said there is no dark side and that if there is a dark side it is only the darkness of your own fears and doubts. I think it relates to that but I believe that eventually at one point A person is so consumed by the dark side that they are no longer themselves. What I ment by this is when one gives into anger, fear, and aggression the dark side then takes hold. You are no longer in control of yourself, but under the control of your own dark emotions. These dark thoughts and emotions can eventually take control and you are but a pawn of your own dark side.

Now that I have read a little bit into Destiny's Way though, I now understand more about Vergere's point. I merely somewhat misunderstood her point of view. I still have to get used to some of the more extremeties of all that "different point of view" stuff.

Vergere's point of view isn't entirely different from that of Mace Windu or any other Jedi Battlemaster, I'd wager. Vergere never said there was no Dark Side, period. Vergere said that the idea that the Dark Side is a facet of the Force was ridiculous, and to be honest I agree with her assessment. Vergere's argument is a little blurry, but I've adapted it for use by my Jedi Master just as soon as I've got a group to use it on!

"The Force is simply the Force. A tool to be employed for good or ill or something in between. The Dark Side lies not within the Force, but within the philosophies the Force spawns. The Dark Side is a facet of sentience, not an emanation of malignance from the Force itself. To blame any action on the Force is to remove yourself from blame, and that goes against all moral and ethical responsibility. There is no such thing as a negative emotion. Just negative reactions to emotions. If you control your reactions to your emotions, you control your emotions and you control yourself. First, you must learn control."

Hopefully, his lecture will bring Vergere's ball of fuzz into a clearer light! ;)

Nova Spice
18 October 2002, 09:53 PM
"The Force is simply the Force. A tool to be employed for good or ill or something in between. The Dark Side lies not within the Force, but within the philosophies the Force spawns. The Dark Side is a facet of sentience, not an emanation of malignance from the Force itself. To blame any action on the Force is to remove yourself from blame, and that goes against all moral and ethical responsibility. There is no such thing as a negative emotion. Just negative reactions to emotions. If you control your reactions to your emotions, you control your emotions and you control yourself. First, you must learn control."

Wow, I don't think it can get any clearer. Kudos on such an eloquently created and worded structure Ardent. I suppose that really sums up my whole argument when I first started this thread, so I'll add my two cents to your statement: I think Vergere is right. :D