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wolverine
3 August 2002, 04:35 AM
Assumption 1: YOU are the GM in the following situations.
Assumption 2: You are a Gm who is of the 'where the die falls' way (in otherwords u don't fudge things to keep players alive, nor do you use script immunity)..

1) Players are all in a freighter/luxury yaht. Fighting against some baddies in fighters, when 3 hits later they SHOULD BE destroyed by the rolls of the die. No one is anywhere near the escape pods, and there is only 1 anyway (4 person). There are 7 in total in the ship. How would you allow some to survive, WITHOUT breaking assumption 2.

2) Same premis as 1, but they are flying on corsucant/nal hutta or someother planet with major city scapes. The pilot is going break-neck speeds to catch up to / flee pirates or what ever, and makes 2 consecutive flubs on his piloting roll, signifying he crashes at ner flank speeds into a skyscraper with out any shields up (they were destroyed already). How would you make it so some could survive without violating assumption 2.

blaznee
3 August 2002, 04:50 AM
1+2: Break with your principles and fudge the dice =-)

No seriously..

1: Tell them that the ship has been destroyed and slowly start falling apart.. There is no way they can reach the escape pod, but there are some vacuum suits in range that they can put on.. With those they might be able to survive a few hours floating in space.. After they put those on, make them do an easy dex or con based check to see if they take any explosion damage as they are finally hurled into spac.. It should be an easy check if you don't want to harm the players.. Have them float in space until the baddies "mothership" arrives and takes them prisoner..

2: This one is worse!..You could make them miracolously (spelling?) hit one of those "tunnel" thingies that Anaking and Obi-Wan turns into in the Coruscant chase in AOTC.. There they skid to a halt and the players take som damage but survive..


/Blaznee

Jastor
3 August 2002, 06:45 AM
well ... there are a lot of skyscrapes on Nal Hutta/Nar Shaddaa/Coruscant, but still, there are open space between them and special lanes (as seen in AOTC).. the higher they fly, in theory the lesser chance it would be that they smash into something.

but since you want them to crash .. hmm .. fly into one walking/land speeder bridge and then crash into someones appartment/balcony? :)

Sithspawn
3 August 2002, 09:17 AM
If you want the PCs to survivelet them. Have the ship crash but not explode, then have the PCs roll Survival. Very Difficult - survive with a few cuts and scrapes, Difficult - Incapacitated, Moderate - Mortally Wounded needing bacta tank & cybernetic treatment.

The Admiral
3 August 2002, 09:25 AM
1: I concur, vacsuits during ship break up. It's the only possible way I can see; something on hand that'll let 'em survive hard vacuum long enough to get a different solution.

2: Well, they hit a building, but they don't have to hit a hard bit do they? Plate glass window, shooping mall, skidding tumbling rolling through shoppers, shelves, server-droids, just slowing as they tip over a balconey and drop three storeys to splash down squarely in the ornamental pool in the centre of the shopping court.

Jedi_Staailis
3 August 2002, 12:20 PM
The trouble I have with the solutions presented is that they all violate assumption two. Changing the environment arbitrarily to let the heroes survive is script immunity.

As I see it, there is no solution to the problems that doesn't violate assumption one or two. If you follow the assumptions, you are effectively setting up a relatively realistic game world. You set the scene, and things play out. If they play out badly it's just tough luck (literally!) for the involved parties.

You can still avoid fudging but allow a sort of script immunity (virtually all of the suggestions play on this idea). This style of play can work, but if you're changing the scene to affect the outcome, then why not also change the rolls?

Just putting in my two cents. And you can probably tell I'm a GM who fudges liberally. :)

The Admiral
3 August 2002, 12:52 PM
I don't believe the solutions actually do trangress either assumption. Most of the solutions above bypass the problem by adding to, not changing, the situation involved.

In the case of the ship, the question is 'how can the players survive if there ship is irrevocably destroyed and they are unable to get to the escape pods?' This merely requires lateral thinking on the part of the players during the 1D6 rounds the ship is still in one piece (which is a D6 rule, and Wolverine plays D6) The obvious solution is to find an alternate way of ensuring survival in hard vacuum (which is what would otherwise kill the characters).
Now, if the question and situation also stated that there are no vacsuits, no unusually powerful Jedi, the party aren't composed of Duinoguin, Givin, Morvak and droids, they're not flyin through a particularly dense gas field, or any other possible solution, then you have a whole different kettle of fish and I'd be seriously hard pressed to find a way out.

Script immunity is letting players live when otherwise they would have died because the story requires they live, that's a difffrent thing from providing alternative options when bad things have happened. To make example;

"The torpedo strikes just aft of the main shield generator, instantly, the ship goes dark as main power ruptures, the escape pods are a huge distance away! But fortunately, you manage to crawl into vacsuits, and survive."

That's script immunity.

"The torpedo strikes just aft of the main shield generator, instantly, the ship goes dark as main power ruptures, the escape pods are a huge distance away! Everyone give me a Knowledge roll. Right, OK, Kiassu and Trell, you both remember that there are emergency vacsuits stocked under each seat, but it's been a long time since they've been checked, they might not still be sealed."
"Quick! Under your chairs! Vacsuits! it's our only hope!"
"OK, I need everyone to make a Technical roll to extract the suits, followed by a Dexterity roll to get into them, you'll have to ditch your weapons."
"Can we roll in seperate rounds?"
"You can if you wish but (screeeach) that was the sound of a major bulkhead giving way, the compartment door is glowing and you can hear air screaming out of every seam, OK, roll 'em,,,"

That's NOT script immunity, that's a reasonable direction for a GM to offer up a chance at survival. You don't need to fudge the rolls, the ship IS destroyed. The players may still die, a fumbled Tech roll could tear the suit, and a mighty impressive Dex roll would be needed to get into the suit quickly enough, and if they don't make both, schploomf.

Grimace
3 August 2002, 04:02 PM
Well, the ideas offered so far seem to be about as good as you can get and still retain some sense of believability. Sure, it's pushing the limits of Assumption 2, but it doesn't completely break the barrier. In just about every situation, working under Assumption 2, the only way to stretch a live threatening situation is to allow a couple more last-ditch rolls to save their butts. As The Admiral pointed out, requiring of a couple of quite difficult rolls to avoid death gives them those last vestiges of hope. Just saying "Ah, that's the third hit. The ship explodes, you're all dead." is certainly one way you can do it, but your players will feel as if you took away any chance of them avoiding their fate. Giving them a chance to think of something, such as the vac suits, and then making it a challenge to get them on in time puts their destiny in their own hands, and out of yours.

Sure, the PCs may die anyway, but at least they'll feel they got a fighting chance. So the best way is to have maybe one last-ditch effort that could be attempted by the PCs before they're X'd out and new characters are written up. You still let the dice fall where they may, but you don't have to arbitrarily snuff them the very first time it happens. Leave it in their hands.

This also makes for really good, memorable stories. Your players will talk about "the time when we shoulda died aboard the ship that was breaking up, but I managed to get my suit on and ..." if you can make these moments more intense and less "it just happened, roll up a new character."

Jedi_Staailis
3 August 2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Grimace
Sure, it's pushing the limits of Assumption 2, but it doesn't completely break the barrier.
Grimace has illustrated the key point here. By the nature of RPGs, the GM always has an element of control over the story. Where "script immunity" begins and storytelling ends is a personal decision, and affects a GM's style.

I think we all agree that something must be done to prevent the death of the entire party. I call it script immunity because I would never allow so many extra rolls in another situation (like avoiding a wounding shot), so this situation involves extra GM involvement. On the other hand, I have no problem with fudging or script immunity in my games; Wolverine needs to move the line a little bit so that it will work for his game. He's balancing the tension of the characters' mortality with the practical concerns of keeping the party alive for more than one adventure. How far he decides to go in protecting the PCs determines how he can resolve the two dilemmas.

evan hansen
3 August 2002, 08:08 PM
I think the key thing you consider when looking at The Admiral's -- or Grimace's -- post is to realize that you'll have to push Assumption 2 in some way (as Grimace said).

The bottom line is that you'll have to fudge some dice or some realism. As GM, however, you can fudge the storyline without fudging dice for PCs.

Realistically, the ships will explode and all the characters will likely die. But if you want to save some without fudging dice rolls, only make limited numbers of PCs roll the dice -- namely those who are nearest the problem. Create some random hit chart for the others that ranges from minor injuries to near death for the others, roll a D6 for the rest, and see what you come up with for each.

That's a broad response from a drunk, tired Evan... but I think it kind of ties the concept of fudging-but-not-really-fudging together.

Vanger Chevane
4 August 2002, 05:38 AM
1: Most spaceships larger than fighter-size have hatches and compartmentalized spaces.

If a section is breached, they lose some air, anything loose gets whipped about, and the effected section is only accessible with a vacsuit. You'd also have to seal off the adjoining section and evacuate the air in it (if possible) to get into the breached section without having to go outside & use an extrenal access hatch (if one exists).

2: Consider what's behind the tranparisteel. If they crash into a heavy manufacturing area, they're pretty much toast. If they bounce it into some Ithorian's garden, or a Bedding Shop, filled with soft materials the odds of survival increase dramatically.

You can tweak the storyline to adjust the numbers as you need.

wolverine
4 August 2002, 05:40 AM
Thanks to all those who have responded, it generated quite a bit of intelligent thinking....

OK. senario 1, while technically a hypothertical one i put up to see how it could be done, has come close to happening in several games i have ran. The solution i would have used, is very similar to the Admerial's, but i would make it a perception check to remember the Vac suits. I would keep the dex check though.

As for 2. It is just a straight out hypothetical. I have never had any game come close to it, but i thought of it, when i was re-watching ATOC. My solution, would have been, unfortunatly, to kack those in the cockpit (it would most likely be the first part to hit, and even if it hit in a glass wall area, it would still rip the cockpit apart), and allow very difficult strength rolls for those in other areas. Those in engineering would get a little better chance of surviving, due to their being further from the impact point.....

wolverine
4 August 2002, 05:58 AM
OK. ANother one for ya...
Assumption 1: You use the D6 version (sorry it is what i know so i feel better using it as a basis for the questions)
Assumption 2: You own and/or have read Rules of engagement (the spec forces hand book)

One of your players wishes to have martial arts like what Jet Li uses in the film the One (final battle, where he is in his 'GABE' side), a flowing Wu-Shu/Hapkido/Aikedo type of style. What skill(s) would you put it under, and what special maneuvers would you give it?

evan hansen
4 August 2002, 06:24 AM
Personally, I'd create a new set of rules for something that complicated.

In RoE, it outlines the Martial Arts stuff in pretty good detail, but I don't think it quite covers the really hardcore kind of martial arts that you're talking about. In order to get that specific, you'll need to generate some special rule set. The problem with that is that generally when you get more specific, it costs less character points to advance the skill. So you could make it more character points (ie, make it advanced, not a specialization), but it would obviously be a sub-set of martial arts -- which is already an Advanced Skill.

I would tend to think that you create a name for this type of Martial Arts and create rules for it. Say that you need to have two Advanced Skills: Martial Arts and Advanced Acrobatics.

You would have to have at least XYZ number of D in each to begin truly learning this form of Martial Arts. As you get more dice, you get a modifier to every Martial Arts attack or defense roll that you make. While Acrobatics wouldn't have to be used in the rolling, the modifier would be tied to how high that skill was, so you'd need to make sure it advanced along with your Martial ARts skill.

Does that make sense? It's a weird situation to deal with, but I think a little addition to existing rules can handle it pretty well.

Puck
5 August 2002, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by evan hansen
Say that you need to have two Advanced Skills: Martial Arts and Advanced Acrobatics.

You would have to have at least XYZ number of D in each to begin truly learning this form of Martial Arts.


And don't forget - said PC will need to either find and/or convince a master in this martial art to teach them!

A sub-plot or even a full-fledged adventure in itself!

The Admiral
5 August 2002, 04:54 AM
I've always seen the martial arts manouveres as only the beginning part of Martial arts. Sure, flying kick doesn't really go into detail, but the important bits are there. What turns a mundane martial arts experience into something truly cool is the interaction between an imaginitive player and an imaginitive GM.

Any martial arts fight can be broken down into basic steps, it's only when the player and the GM are DESCRIBING what is happeneing does it suddenly become the kind of ballet you're talking about.
Of course, if you want it to work, you need the skills to pay the bills.

"OK, I'm gonna rock, side to side slightly, holding my hands in ready pose, then spin left, rolling under this table, (a dodge roll) on the other side I want to end up on my hands, and get this guy in the face with both feet, like this (demonstrates an inverted rear mule kick, GM picks a Flying Kick Mano with a suitably higher difficulty number) then flip backwards onto this table, (flip) using the momentum to grab that guy round the neck with my legs (grab) and repeatedly bash his head, (mutliple strike) and as he drops to the floor, I wanna let my legs unlock so he kinda carries me to the ground (free action) and now his goons are toast, come up into a fighting stance again."
"That's five actions, -4D to all rolls."
"Hey, I got a bucket load of character points, (dice are rolled) wahay!"
"OK, OK, you look Dardramus square in the eyes, then dart to your left,,,"

You don't often, IMHO, really need tha many martial arts moves, they're generic enough to be fitted to the situation, it's the description as part of the interaction that changes how it's percieved,,,