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Shen Jon Bendu
21 August 2002, 10:47 PM
I was wondering how to deal with the following situation: letīs say that somebody itīs attacked with a lightsaber, the defender uses something like a vibroweapon or even his own arm, but not a lightsaber to defend himself. Obviously whatever it gets in the way of the lightsaber blow, would be destroyed. But, how do you represent that in the game?
Sorry for my bad english and thanks a lot!

Kas'ir Faywind
21 August 2002, 11:31 PM
Why would the defender do that in the first place? Why would someone knowingly put their vibro axe in the way of something that could chop it in half.

the only way it would hit the weapon if the Jedi was attacking the weapon.

Shen Jon Bendu
22 August 2002, 12:27 AM
In the empire period, jedi arent a common sight, and i think that a lightsaber would be equally rare. So, in the event that someone holding any kind of melee weapon is attacked with a lightsaber, i think that his reaction would be parry the incoming attack with his weapon. He doesnt know that the lightsaber would pass righ through. He doesnt know what the hell is that glowing thing!
But, how do you decide if the blade of the lightsaber just cut troguh the weapon, and stops or keeps going and hits the body of the defender?

Krad-edis
22 August 2002, 01:24 AM
If you are playing the D6 game, I always have my Gammorean and Weequay guards roll their vibro blades (Str+3D) and vibro axes (Str+3D+1) versus the damage of the lightsaber. Lets say that Jedi Knight Joe swings his lightsaber down to make a head strike on Gammorean guard with vibro axe.

Jedi Joe rolls his Lightsaber damage plus his Control roll (if lightsaber combat is up) to total out the damage for his strike. His Control skill is at 5D, so with the activation of a multiaction force power, the dice is a 4D,...add the Control of 4D to the 5D of lightsaber damage and that is 9D in total damage.

The guard will roll his strength roll of 4D + 3D+1 = 7D in weapon body durability. (I realize that it should be 7D+1, but the rules say maximum damage output of 7D....so I go no higher than 7D for stuctural integrity of vibro weapons)

The hypothetical total for the damage of the lightsaber hit is (9D) a 36, and the vibro-axe's structural integrity roll (7D) comes to a hypothetical total of 28.

In this instance, the melee weapon did in fact deflect the lightsaber blade, but the vibro weapon is damaged by 8. A follow up hit to the weapon is likely to destroy the weapon completely (anything greater than 16 would turn the weapon into slag). If the weapon is destroyed, the lightsaber blade passes through and strikes the defender in the intended area or wherever the dice decides, causing serious problems for the person who thought he could parry the blade. I have seen vibro blades block lightsabers in D6, so it is possible, but the same damaged weapon rarely deflects the second hit.

For the D20 system, I apologize for not having the revised core rules, but if you turn to the section on object hardness, you will notice that lightsabers ignore all hardness modifiers. This can be found on page 147 of the old D20 core rulebook. There is no real Hardness difficulty to beat, instead roll damage to the wound points of the weapon. I cannot post stats and real specifics here, but trust me, the lightsaber will have no trouble cutting through most character scale weapons.

For brawling parrys.........Owwweeeee!

If someone were foolish enough to try and do some sort of brawling block on an incoming lightsaber blade, I would roll damage accordingly for both systems and roll resistance accordingly. In both systems, I think it is pretty safe to say that the arm will be severed of the defender and more than likely the blade will follow through causing a second hit on a critical area, like the head or neck. This person is most likely to be toast....sliced toast.

I hope this helps you out, and I feel extremely sorry for any character in your game who tries to block a lightsaber with his or her arm. Look what happened to Anakin as Anakin and Anakin as Vader. Look what happened to Luke. Look what happened to Jango Fett. Lightsabers do a pretty good slice job on people. They get hit by lightsabers and go all to pieces....;) :D

OverLord
22 August 2002, 02:31 AM
I agree with Krad-edis! :)
By the way, in the revised rules it isn't called hardness anymore, it's now called damage reduction.:rolleyes:
And the section about Lightsabers and damage reduction are located on p 133 in RCRB.

wolverine
22 August 2002, 03:11 AM
Easy solution. Block the arm holding the blade, not the blade itself.

OverLord
22 August 2002, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
Easy solution. Block the arm holding the blade, not the blade itself.
Blocking the arm that wields a Lightsaber?
That is not very easy!

Krad-edis
22 August 2002, 05:29 AM
Blocking the arm that wields a Lightsaber?
That is not very easy!

Especially when in the hands of a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord.

Isn't this how that psychotic Jedi Hunting Cerean named Del Korrot got killed? Palpatine got fed up with his bullsh*t and Vader hacked him down. He was the force sensitive who hunted the Jedi with a vibroblade. The full story is on page 88 of The Dark Side Sourcebook.

I would say that he was not able to parry the arm of the saber which struck him down, and neither were a lot of Jedi who were also struck down by the same lightsaber.

Imagine being a non-force sensitive character and going toe to toe with someone like Vader. I really don't think you have a prayer against all the combined dice of his hefty dice in Lightsaber and his other huge pool of dice in Control and Sense (lightsaber combat) for D6, or his level 18 bonuses to lightsaber techniques assisted by battlemind and enhance ability for D20.

Look at the fight scenes in all five of the movies. True, the battles that don't end in death seem to end with an arm getting cut off, but this is only after many parries and clashes to gain the upperhand. I would not call it an easy solution by any means, that is unless you are fighting against the third grade Padawans that Yoda was training in Episode II. Even then, I would still want to try and get away from a lightsaber blade if I did not have one and was trained in how to use it.....and force sensitivity would really be a nice bonus as well :)

OverLord
22 August 2002, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Krad-edis
Imagine being a non-force sensitive character and going toe to toe with someone like Vader. I really don't think you have a prayer against all the combined dice of his hefty dice in Lightsaber and his other huge pool of dice in Control and Sense (lightsaber combat) for D6, or his level 18 bonuses to lightsaber techniques assisted by battlemind and enhance ability for D20.
As long as your name isn't Boba Fett!!!
I remember reading a comicbook where Darth Vader and Boba Fett had a big fight, and Boba appear to be holding his ground pretty good, but he would have looked like his father (original (or whatever!);)) if he hadn't "tricked" Vader and run away.

Kas'ir Faywind
22 August 2002, 05:56 AM
I would not alllow a free sunder(attack on a weapon) unless the jedi declared it as such.

Lets say the guy knows nothing about lightsabers. Why would i want my probably only melee weapon to parry something i see that looks like a beam of energy? for that matter why would i want my ARM to touch that glowy stuff that looks like a permanent(sp?) blaster bolt.

And if a jedi is attack a guy with a vibro weapon he should just sunder it anyways and force him to surrender.

In pure lightsaber fights i have anytime you miss the def by 10 or less is described as a parry. Anytime you score VP damage the opponent jumps over dodges or moves back to avoid the damage.

It just goes into how you describe the battle and how your characters act it out not making pseudo rules to get it accomplished and make jedi's more powerful.

Manticore
22 August 2002, 07:24 AM
I agree with the above. Jedi are great fighters, but they should not slaughter punks without first trying alternative methods such as disarming them all and then giving them the option of surrender.

As for the rules, I use a logical extention of the mellee weapon vs no mellee weapon bonus.

defending against lightsaber- with mellee weapon -5, no weapon -10
attacking against lightsaber- with mellee weapon -5, no weapon -10

This I attribute to the non-lightsaber user having to try and avoid the blade, dodge, roll and feign against him. It is also important to assign these penalties to the non-lightsaber user, and not bonuses to the jedi's attack. The reason being- I am very strict on the 'miss your roll by 10, you might lose a leg' rule. Don't forget that roughly every 6th strike is going to be bad luck, right?

Lord Diggori
22 August 2002, 07:51 AM
I've dealt with this question simply in the past:

No one would ever parry a lightsaber bare armed. No one. Animals would even sense this : fire bad!.

Those with melee weapons MUST fight defensively versus lightsaber. If not the damage from each hit deals half to the weapon and half to the opponent.

It's worked for me.

Krad-edis
23 August 2002, 12:54 AM
Lets say the guy knows nothing about lightsabers. Why would i want my probably only melee weapon to parry something i see that looks like a beam of energy? for that matter why would i want my ARM to touch that glowy stuff that looks like a permanent(sp?) blaster bolt.

Kas'ir Faywind, oh absolutely, most people would not want to put their arm up in front of a lightsaber blade, but if you were about to get your head beat in, wouldn't you try and put something in front of the object and your face? It is a natural defensive reaction to lift your arms up to protect your head if something is about to hit it, be it a weapon or your arm. I am not always talking about Jedi here, but I think that a lot of villainous force users who swing lightsabers would hack down people even in the action of trying to surrender. A last ditch effort to strike away a killing blow is sometimes all a target has available when it comes to lightsabers.



And if a jedi is attack a guy with a vibro weapon he should just sunder it anyways and force him to surrender.

Not to get into too much of a discussion of ethics here, but some enemies just are not going to surrender unless you destroy their weapon and maim them, or make an example to the rest of the punks out of the first one to charge in by hacking him down. Does the sail barge scene from ROTJ ring a bell for anyone? Luke cut down many guards that day. Sundering one guard's weapon does not sunder all of their weapons, and that one guard who has a sundered weapon can easily attack without his weapon. If they are a threat, they must be dealt with. Sometimes this means killing them.

"This is your last chance Jabba. Free us or die."

"Put them in."

Luke seems to be thinking: I don't really want to fight you, but if you want it you got it!

To put it shortly, if you are engaged in a fight (without a lightsaber) against someone with a lightsaber (especially a Sith or Dark Jedi), and you stay there, it is your a$$. I would run away, like Boba Fett.

Shen Jon Bendu
23 August 2002, 03:22 AM
At least someone got it! I think that Krad-edis was the only one that got my point when i said that about parrying a lightsaber with an arm!

OverLord
23 August 2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Shen Jon Bendu
At least someone got it! I think that Krad-edis was the only one that got my point when i said that about parrying a lightsaber with an arm!
Okay Shen Jon Bendu, then the answer is easy: The arm is chopped off!!! :D

In D6 I apply a -10 mod for defending against Lightsaber, if he makes it, thats it, he did it. If he would have made it without the -10 mod ,he blocks the saber on his arm. Roll for damage, if you beat his Strength roll he takes damage to his arm (16+ copped off :D). If he fails to black at all, roll for damage as usually.

In d20 he can't block, so it doesn't matter.

Shen Jon Bendu
23 August 2002, 04:02 AM
Of course OverLord, i knew that the arm should be severed, i was asking for a reallistic way to put that down on rules. And thanks, your solution sounds good enough.[COLOR=skyblue][B]

OverLord
23 August 2002, 04:32 AM
Offcource you knew, so does everyone who have seen the movies!;)

Glad I could help Shen Jon Bendu!

Krad-edis
23 August 2002, 10:52 PM
Does anyone still think the arm is severed if the person is wearing a long sleave shirt with cufflinks? :D

Yeah, I would have to say that if an arm goes up in defense, it won't be there for the next action, but remember that people with one arm, or hand can still escape giant gas mining facilities, or throw their evil boss down a power core shaft. It is still possible to move your head out of the way of the blade, even though your arm just got snipped. You can still attack too. A one armed person still has one hand left to deliver a strike to the throat of an unsuspecting Jedi (is there such a thing? possibly if he is young and unexperienced?)

While the Jedi is laying there choking to death on his own blood from a crushed wind pipe, the one armed man picks up the Jedi's lightsaber. He will need it later to trade in for credits, afterall, cybernetic arms aren't free. 8o

Ronin
24 August 2002, 08:30 PM
In our old D6 campaign we had a few dumb enemy who got weapons or limbs chopped up by parrying and blocking lightsabers with normal weapons, etc...
it`s okay and a bit of a laugh.
But when it comes to your prized baddies; the officer who`s deadly with a vibro-rapier, it kinda ruins it when the Jedi dices his blade in half...hence the GM described the attacking, parrying etc as not merely blade-on-energy-blade, but rather the baddie `parried` attacks by counterattacking/"making threatening moves" with his sword, which proved to disuade/nullify the Jedi`s attack...
ie. a wordy-description, the same game mechanic, but your big-baddie doesn`t get diced (him or his weapon) as soon as he attack or defends against a Jedi.

Just a thought...

wolverine
25 August 2002, 02:30 AM
I have always though melee parry and brawl parry were the ability to dodge the blow, block the blow or otherwise avoid getting hit. By that way of thinking, someone with a vibro weapon or just his arms SHOULD be able to 'parry' a person with a lightsaber and avoid getting his or her arm/appendage cut off....

Krad-edis
25 August 2002, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by wolverine
I have always though melee parry and brawl parry were the ability to dodge the blow, block the blow or otherwise avoid getting hit. By that way of thinking, someone with a vibro weapon or just his arms SHOULD be able to 'parry' a person with a lightsaber and avoid getting his or her arm/appendage cut off....

It is possible that the arm or weapon is not cut completely off or in half, but instead the blow is averted from hitting something critical. However, more than likely, especially when dealing with lightsaber blades, the weapon or arm is severely damaged or destroyed. I don't know too many people who can deflect or block a bat or a heavy dull object without getting their arm broken (yes, I am a martial artist). I do know one guy who blocked a big roll of paper (I mean huge) that tipped over in the warehouse he worked in. He deflected the blow from hitting his head, however he also broke his arm. If the block had not worked properly the big roll of paper would have pushed past his arm and crushed his skull and arm together which would have either knocked him unconscious or killed him, however his balance and block were good and worked, minimizing the injury.

Martial arts blocks are intended to block martial arts techniques. I am sorry, but martial arts blocks are not intended to effectively block chopping techniques from swords without any way of not getting hurt (unless you are good enough and close enough to trap the person's sword arm, and this involves grappling. As I will say again, you better be damn quick and damn good to do this). In fact, the one thing that I was told, was that if you are in a fight with someone with a knife (and you cannot run away), you should get it in your mind right away that you are going to get stabbed. Those who don't except this usually die of shock once they have been stabbed. Defensive wounds on knife victims are all a result of parrying an edged weapon which lacks real chopping power, more than likely from the attacker slashing or stabbing at you. A lightsaber does not lack chopping power. It can slash, stab and chop. The arm or weapon is likely to be gone if it goes up in defense.

You will get cut, and if hit hard enough you will lose the use of your arm, or you will lose it completely if you try to parry sharp objects or dull and heavy objects. If you can deflect the attack by blocking and striking the opponents weapon arm within grappling range and trap and control their weapon arm, you may stand a chance of not getting cut or a fracture, but otherwise you are in a losing battle if you do not have a melee weapon and they do.....especially if they have a melee weapon which ignores all hardness like a lightsaber. I would not want to grapple with someone with a knife.......and I certainly would not grapple with someone with a lightsaber, but trying to wrestle a lightsaber away (after effectively trapping and locking their weapon arm) from someone in grappling range is the only way that I can think of in which someone would be able to deflect or parry a melee attack without a melee weapon, and come away unscathed. It is extremely risky!

As for melee weapons on lightsaber blades, perhaps blocking an indirect attack may push a lightsaber blade aside (I wouldn't bet on it), and do relatively no damage to the blade except for some minor burning or scoring, but forget trying to hard parry a lightsaber blade or blocking full on against a chopping attack like we see Vader do. You will only assist the lightsaber blade from cutting right through your weapon like a hot knife through butter. Extremely bad idea unless you have a lightsaber yourself. If you take a sword and strike against a regular sword, depending on the quality of it and how hard you hit, you will notice little chop lines in blades which parry, (especially hard parrying). Imagine what a sword or vibro weapon would look after hard parrying a lightsaber.......the blade would be chopped off or melted...probably both if met on directly. Vader chopped those poles in half as if he was cutting cake.....and those poles were thicker....much thicker than most melee weapons.

Think about this......it may just save your character's life! :D

Krad-edis
28 August 2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by OverLord

Okay Shen Jon Bendu, then the answer is easy: The arm is chopped off!!! :D

In D6 I apply a -10 mod for defending against Lightsaber, if he makes it, thats it, he did it. If he would have made it without the -10 mod ,he blocks the saber on his arm. Roll for damage, if you beat his Strength roll he takes damage to his arm (16+ copped off :D). If he fails to black at all, roll for damage as usually.

In d20 he can't block, so it doesn't matter.

I don't know whether the RCRB mentions the Defense Roll, but it is covered on page 132 of the Original Core Rules. It can be counted as an active dodge or parry....that is, depending on whether your GM will allow such a thing in the game. It is possible to block or dodge in D20 under this option.

Jedi Master Yavic
29 August 2002, 10:51 PM
Hello everyone.

I really liked the discussion, so I decided to add my 2 cents on it.
First, about the blocking with the arm thing: in D20, that simply doesn't happen. Nobody asks to block with his arm, even when being attacked by a simple quarterstaff. In this cases, using the general rules of "if missed by less than 10 is a block (a lucky hilt parry)" is a good choice.
However, when a character (a Jedi, for all proposes) has to get his lightsaber, this costs a turn in which he might be attacked. He could also loose his initiative, and even if they both got their weapons in the first round, the other would still attack first. This gives time for the opponent (a thug in this case) to try something, and I believe that most options (except a normal attack) actualy cause an attack of opportunity, like attack the hilt (which would have a defense of 17 if held, or 14 if is only being carried, if you consider it as of tiny size. It would have a damage reduction of 10 or 15, depending on what kind of metal the hilt is made of).
The thug could try also to Bantha Rush the Jedi, which is quite useless, unless he is near a cliff fall.
The thug could try to disarm the Jedi. If he's successful, the Jedi must try to retrieve his saber, or attack the thug barehanded, or he can only try to flee. In all cases, it would cause an attack of opportunity by the thug.
The thug could grapple the Jedi. This would cause a small ammount of damage.
He could trip the Jedi. A successful trip gives the Jedi a -4 penalty on his melee attack roll, and gives the thug a +4 melee attack bonus. From them all, I believe it would be the best option.
Overrunning the Jedi is also good, as you only give an attack of opportunity, then the Jedi can either let you go, in which case the thug can keep running, get away, hide and set a trap to the Jedi. Or if he tries to block the thug, he can trip the Jedi. This would be the second best option, only if the Jedi is away from him, and the thug doesn't want to simply get closer to get killed.

The rules for all of this stuff is in this exact order in the last pages of the chapter 8 in the RCRB. About D6 system, then I have no idea, as I have never played it. But overall, think that if the Jedi lost the attack roll by less than 10, the thug was lucky enough to parry the blow in the hilt. And in a saber vs. saber battle, every time one of them get hit and loose wound points, it was a parry, that on the long run makes them more and more tired durring the fight. Eventualy, when they are too tired (lost all vitality points), or if a lucky critical is made, the opponent will most probably be knocked out, like Obi-Wan and Anakin when fighting Dooku.

Geez, sorry about the long post, I tend on doing bibles when replying :)

P.S.: Sorry, the Jedi can get his weapon, he just can't move more than a 2-meter step on the same round, as it's a move action. Just realized it after I posted the message.
P.P.S.: About blocking actively, I didn't found it on the RCRB. There is, however the Total Defense action, which doesn't allow you to attack, but gives you a +4 dodge bonus for 1 round. You can take a move action, as Total Defense is an Attack Action. Remember that if you move more than a 2-meter step, you give your opponent an attack of opportunity. It might be the best option if what you want is to resist until your partner can help you, or if you are trapped in a corner and can't use Disengage. You keep on full defense, and in 3 rounds (maybe) you can try to use Disengage.

sabremaster
31 August 2002, 04:34 PM
As a martial artists, I have another alternative that you may want to concider.
There is a concept of blocking an attack by "Jamming". As an example, if someone throws a straight puch at your face, you sidestep closer and hit the shoulder of their punching arm to disrupt the aim of the punch. This is also applicable to blocking a knife thrust without touching the blade, you simply disrupt their attack by attacking a critical part of their movement, ie the shoulder, smashing the foot to stop them from moving/ kicking. This concept can be carried further, if the charactor in question has a staff type weapon (virbro ax, force pike , quarter staff, ect) it might be possible for them to strike at the shoulder or legs of the charator with the sabre and possible disrupt their attack, or at least mess up their aim enough to avoid being cut in half:D
Note however that this technique does require a lot of skill and training, and it is not something that I would want to try against someone with a knife, let alone a lightsabre, but if the charater in question is of high experience or is focused mainly on unarmed or melee combat it might be something they could pull of (once:D ) to give them time to get away or find a more premant way to disarm their lightsabre wielding opponent.

Jedi Master Yavic
31 August 2002, 10:00 PM
When I gave my reply, I was thinking about game terms. But if you wanna know what I would do in real life (tm), being a former fencer myself (ironically, I fought with a saber), I would jump forward, get inside the Jedi's movement of attack, block him from inside his guard, and then simply swing my vibroblade to his side. (similar from the post above this one, except I wouldn't just disrupt the attack, I would attack as fast as possible in the closest vital point.)
The key is to move as close to his body as you can while making a defensive movement, therefore, he cannot switch the side of his blade and attack you from the other flank. I think it would be something similar to the strategy of fighting with a kodachi against a katana. The kodachi is faster, since the weight distribution makes it heavier on the hilt instead of being on the tip of the blade, but because of that it doesn't deal as much damage as a katana. That doesn't matter much if you hit your opponent on the neck, but in order to do that, you need to pass through his katana.
My suggestion is that we shouldn't care as much about that sort of stuff. The game is for roleplay, not detailed fights. The less combat rules, the better. The bigger the combat chapter gets, more interessed in it the players will be! :)