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wolverine
22 September 2002, 01:41 AM
Let's say, you have planed out a side line adventure that will take place, IF your party flubbs an astrogation roll. Later on, during your next gaming session, while in a furball with ties (or pirates or what ever), the person plotting the astrogation route, rolls his 4d (D6 specific, i know not what it would be in d20), and get's all ones.
You secretly start to smile, as you now think you have the oportunity to pull your side line adventure now, BUT, the player knowing he got a sh***y roll, says he is going to re-do it. After the alloted time, and even spending CP or an Fp, still rolls all ones. He again, says he is going to re-try....and so on and so on...

What i am getting at, is:
Is there anyting in the rules, d6 or d20, which actually prevents the party from NOT using or using chrackedd astrogation cordinates, cause the player realises he got a really low roll. And decides to keep rolling (or others roll as well) and they do not enter hyperspace until they get a really high roll....


Looking at it, the only thing i can see to prevent this 'abuse' from happening, is time...

Thrawn
22 September 2002, 04:41 AM
Hey Wolwerine

Sometimes in D20, the GM secretly roles the dice, to make the astrogation roles. maybe you could do the same in D6.

They are actually using OC information.
so if the continue doing it, just draw points from each of their astrogation rolls. so they will fail even when they invetually roll, a high number.

or use the good thing from the book. 1 on a wild die and a funny thing happens :D

thats my to 2 cents hope you can use it

Thrawn

Jim Williams
22 September 2002, 04:41 AM
Hey Wolverine,

In D6, all I can see is the rules clearly stating that if the PC fails the roll by 10 or more points, a new Astrogation plot roll be made. The plot is "good" even on a failure by 1-9, there will just be a mishap. Now, I can see them retrying when they are doing the plot without stressors affecting their plot, but if they are under attack or whatever and the plot is good enough to jump, then rule that they don't have time to analyze the math. The puter is telling them it's a go. It's metagame thinking for them to go, "But, man, we're going to have a mishap! Replot!"

Speaking of mishap, rule that that's an effect of a 1 on the wild die. Grin and say, "Everything looks perfect to you." Then drop your grin and add, "Remember CPs are awarded for good roleplaying and taken away for poor roleplying" if you need to.

d20 works pretty much the same way. The only exception is you get a valid plot no matter what your Astrogate check is.

On a realistic note, there have been times I've solved a math problem or fixed something. Everything looked okay, but you don't know for sure until you test it or plug the answer for X back into the equation. I wouldn't have time to do dat if I was being shot at. I'd just go with it if it looked okay.

AxiustheDark
22 September 2002, 05:47 AM
Actually, Thrawn hit upon a very good solution to a problem of players "metagaming." I have a few different rolls that I make for the players (in d20, but this explanation can be "converted" to d6), such as Bluff, Initimidate, Astrogation, Sense Motive, See Force, etc....

Basically, any roll that you feel you should make, make it. If you play it right, it is a lot more suspensful for the players once they get past the fact that they cannot metagame. You have seen players roll an incredibly high roll before, and they think that if there was a door in here, they would have seen it. Etc..etc...

Jim Williams
22 September 2002, 05:54 AM
Good point Axius. I've never dome much GM rolling for the PC. I think I need to start, and ask my GM to do the same. The only problem is if a player feels they impart some kind of energy to their dice when they roll them.

I had a PC questioning a NR Captain's possible loyalties (due to his unfortunate associations in the past). He was in command of one of the newly captured ISDs, but when I rolled a 19 for my Sense Motive, I knew he was either A) okay B) a darn good liar or C) an okay liar who got lucky like me. So I killed him just to be safe. Kidding.

Chris Curtis
22 September 2002, 08:25 AM
wolverine, the rest of the responses have been pretty much the same as my thoughts -- the players are basing their decision to re-roll on information their characters probably wouldn't have.

Like Jim said, either the computer accepts the input navigation or it doesn't. After all, I really doubt the computer is going to say to them, "okay, we can use those coordinates. But, really, you guys are idiots if you jump with those...".

Then there's also the whole thing about the fight going on outside. If the players continue to try and metagame, then feel free to start knocking out systems on their ship from battle damage.

"Oops, your shields are gone"

"I'm re-rolling the astrogation check."

"--BAM-- Artificial gravity is gone, guys. Add 10 to the difficulty of any checks involving ANYthing physical."

"I'm re-rolling the astrogation check."

"Ooooh, that was a nasty hit. Kiss your life-support goodbye. You've got about 5 hours of breathable atmosphere in your ship. And the temperature is dropping."

"Umm... I think we'll jump now."

wolverine
22 September 2002, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the responses so far. While i have not actually had this happen to me in a game, i have seen it once at a CON (origins this year).
The player in question rolled 4 less than the gm's set diff, but he also had a one. Pretty much he said, crap it. I'm redoing my numbers, and also i will have the R-2 check over it...... THe gm took a break (it was only his second time GMing starwars at a CON) and asked me for advice. ANd no, it was not at the hight of combat, but it was near.......

Fab
23 September 2002, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Jim Williams
Good point Axius. I've never dome much GM rolling for the PC. I think I need to start, and ask my GM to do the same. The only problem is if a player feels they impart some kind of energy to their dice when they roll them.

Let them do the rolling, but make sure their hand is behind your GM screen (or a book, or whatever) so that they do the rolling but only you do the seeing. If they don't want to do that, you could take a cue from the way we do it in Dawn Patrol (used to be Fight in the Skies), someone else acts as an observer. They make the roll behind a screen and you tell them if it's low enough to do the re-roll or not. Then, without touching them, let another player see the dice. The roller has to re-roll, or not, without knowing what was on the dice. Then, when the decision is finally made, the observer can tell everyone what was on the roll. Stops metagaming, keeps it secret, allows the player to do the rolling him- or herself, and allows someone else to verify that you're not doing the old GM trick of making things up as you go along.

Grimace
23 September 2002, 07:27 AM
I've always worked on the premise that if it's an action where they get results of their actions (roll) then I allow rerolls. If their action is not one that would allow them to know that their actions were not successful, I don't allow rerolls. As people have stated, there's no reason for the character to believe that he/she didn't succeed in the action unless the computer or whatever doesn't repsond. So if the player rolled extremely poorly and wanted a reroll, but there was no reason for the character to know that the first roll wouldn't work, I'd flat out say "There's no reason to roll, the calculation looks perfectly fine to you." If the player can think of a REAL good reason that the character would recheck data that the character thinks is good already, I let a reroll, but I increase the difficulty of the roll substantially.

On a side note, watch that these threads don't get too system specific, please. This one borders closely on D6 specific.

Jim Williams
23 September 2002, 07:22 PM
It does?

wolverine
10 December 2004, 12:09 AM
What with all the new faces and such, any new thoughts on this dilema?

Random Axe
10 December 2004, 07:06 AM
In my game, the astrogation "roll" is not made until the actual hyperdrive is engaged. Nobody knows until the hyperdrive levers are thrown, whether or not the roll succeeded. If the roll turns out to be a real botch, then the navcomputer squawks a system error and the hyperdrive engines don't engage, but otherwise, a missed roll won't be known until well into the trip. That prevents anyone from wasting playing time going, "I'm rolling it again and having the droid re-check it".

JediJester
17 December 2004, 09:38 AM
I'm with Random Axe. I say the computer accepts the coordinates no matter what except when the player rolls a 1 (d20). Anything else, the computer will accept until the lever is pushed.

Sithspawn
18 December 2004, 02:18 AM
If the players roll badly and insist on re-rolling, let them. Then throw the mishap in anyway.

Player "But my second roll was really high?"

GM "Yes, but you 1st roll messed up the nav computer so your second atttempt was made off wrong information. Oh look, super nova!" B)

Dr_Worm
18 December 2004, 05:15 PM
Random Axe beat me to it. IMO the palyer does not roll that astrogation check until the lever is pulled. We have always assumed this was the case. They can only re-roll if they get stopped again.

Slave_1
23 December 2004, 01:53 PM
In my game, the astrogation "roll" is not made until the actual hyperdrive is engaged.

Exactly, and if you still don't want to change they "Style" of your game, them make the rolls whenever they want, then just before entering (A trick i used to use) make the pilot make a roll with an unstated difficulty, wich fails, and just before they enter hyperspace, something hits them. This can be anything from a blaster cannon to a shower of micro meteors that where to small for sensors to pick up until the last moment. really get thier blood going but then again it emphazises just how dangerous space is suppose to be.

Starlighter
23 December 2004, 11:09 PM
I useually do the DC calculations my self. So the players won't know the exact DC.

All good suggestions up here m8s B)

Mithrandir
24 December 2004, 04:50 PM
At least in the D20 system, you don't know if you're about to have a mishap on the way. There's the dice roll, and you only get it once. The GM will let you know what happens along the way. This basically reflects in the rules what the others have been saying - the computer will let you punch any old numbers in and do what you tell it. If you mess the numbers up, you might just find yourself in the middle of a star somewhere.

The one counter to this is the Deep Space Pilot PrC where one of the SQs is "Sector familiarity". If youn're in a familiar sector, your inbuilt knowledge of that sector means that you can automatically determine whether you have made a mistake and allow another free set of inputs (roll of the dice). If the second fails (would result in a mishap) nothing happens, and you just have to take the same 5 or 10 rounds to make another set of calculations. However, to get to this, you effectively have to be a Level 12 character anyway, so you're well on your way to heroic status as is so this sort of instinctive talent meshes well with the character.