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Frobi-Wan Kenobi
1 October 2002, 03:38 PM
The Jedi Council Lives!!!

Just couldn't contain my excitement.

Fred Getce
1 October 2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi
The Jedi Council Lives!!!


Are you referring to Luke and his rebuilt council or that the council of old has returned from hiding?

I thikn it would rock solid @ss if the Jedi of the Old Republic came out of hiding to assist Luke in rebuilding the order. Would also add some old school to the current punks (solo twins), :cough:, as well as putting a handle on the others.

Just ANTK

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
1 October 2002, 04:06 PM
All new council, but not all Jedi.

1st edit - One thing that I didn't like is that Jaina's wingmate Vale is called both a Duros and a Neimodian. p 206 & 327

2nd edit - Just finished it. I liked it even better than SbS. I always knew that Vergere was a good guy, and in the end she even got to be a Force Spirit (yes, I said Force Spirit meaning she's dead). I'm was saddened to see Ackbar so sickly (I thought he was going to die doing the battle myself). Jaina's now a LTC and 'Sword of the Jedi' while Jacen's destiny has yet to be defined.

Wow. Simply Wow.

AxiustheDark
2 October 2002, 04:52 AM
I kept telling myself "Don't look in this thread....DON'T look in this thread!!" but I couldn't help it. *chuckles* Well, *sighs*, I guess I will just have to keep an eye on this thread from now on. ;)


The Jedi Council Lives!!! AWESOME! That is just great......it only took them about 86 books too many.....

Talonne Hauk
4 October 2002, 07:07 AM
I thought it was a good read, but was it worthy of being a hardback? Ummm... no. I thought it spent too much time not doing ANYTHING, and then when the real action at the end was going on, it was rushed and confused. Jacen seemed a shadow of his former self that we had seen in Traitor, and Jaina was revisiting all her old demons that supposedly had been exorcised in Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand.
I think it's great that the new government found a new leader, but who is Cal Omas? He was never a major player in any previous book. Here's an idea; why not Lando Calrissian? He knows how to be an administrator, the military would be behind him, he's everyone's buddy, and so on and so on.
As to the Jedi Council, oh sorry, High Council, big deal. It was proven that they were ineffective when the Chief of State, Mr. Cal Omas-come-lately said they were strictly advisory.
And how about Vergere becoming a Force Spirit? Ermm, well, if this is something pioneered by Qui-Gon, how does she know how to do it?
I don't like that Tsavong Lah was put away at this point. He was a good villain that deserved better, and his end should have been done later and in a more grandiose style. Shimmra is a good villain too, but he seems to be a carbon copy of Palpatine. At least Tsavong Lah we came to understand. I would have preferred Nom Anor to have bought it. He seems a more minor player than Tsavong Lah.
Destiny's Way; good, but not as good as Star by Star.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
4 October 2002, 09:19 AM
Nom Anor a smaller character than Tsavong Lah? I don't think so. Nom has been in almost every NJO novel.

As for Cal - he was mentioned in Vector Prime and in either Rebel Dream or Stand, as a very respected senator.

Jaina did exorcise the demons in Enemy Lines but she thought she knew that her twin brother was dead during those books. DW dealt with Jaina trying to explain to her twin brother what she had done and why she did, something that she had never thought she would have to. So Williams was revisiting the same topic but he was exploring a different aspect of it. One that stood out pretty big in my mind once I found out that Jacen was coming back.

I believe that Vergere became a Force Spirit since she still had unfinished business (talking to Jacen) and possibly something in another book. Yoda might be old but he hasn't been around since the beginning of the Jedi and Jedi becoming Force Spirits (which if we all remember PotJ almost any Jedi can attain that ability) could have just been kept a secret.

We now have 5 books until this series is finished, and I know that I would be unhappy if the New Republic were losing until the last book and then they were magically saved at the last minute. This way their victory is deserved.

And as the many other SW novels have shown councils thoughts aren't always followed by those who make decisions (the same goes for real life).

Lando everyones buddy? - I think that DW showed that that wasn't the case.

Nova Spice
4 October 2002, 11:22 PM
I finished reading Destiny's Way as well and I must say that I was blown away by how many MAJOR things occurred in the novel!

Jacen and Jaina and the rest of the Solos being re-united was great, but I thought the best part in the entire novel was when the New Republic started coming out of hyperspace at Ebaq 9 in different groups.
When General Farlander's forces (and that was another cool thing, the major part played by Keyan Farlander of the X-wing games) seemed hopelessly outnumbered, Admiral Kre'fey's fleet bursted in to assist, and then the Smuggler's Alliance fleet led by Han, Lando, and Talon Karrde, and then, and this was the moment John Williams music was really flowing through my mind, Garm Bel Iblis and Fleet Group Two emerged with Luke Skywalker!

I thought the novel was a big and important step in the series, as opposed to an important step ina single character (like Dark Journey and Traitor were).

I found myself with only three problems:

-The fact that Pellaeon did not agree to an alliance with the New Republic. I am one of those that believes it is HIGH time the Imperials start fighting.
-The fact that the Imperial Remnant had a Super Star Destroyer as did the New Republic (Guardian was the name of the ship I believe). If the NR had this ship then why in the heck did Pwoe in Rebel Dream pitch a fit about Wedge wanting the Lusankya?
-The fact that Admiral Kre'fey, who I had come to absolutely love, went psycho in this novel. Kre'fey was no longer the smooth, confident Bothan admiral from the Dark Tide series, Rebirth, and Star by Star. All of a sudden, Kre'fey is a raging lunatic bent on total annihilation of the Vong! He just seemed so far out of character IMO.

Anyway, on a scale compared to Star by Star, Destiny's Way tied Traitor as the second best book in the series thus far. :D

Armadious
5 October 2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Nova Spice

-The fact that the Imperial Remnant had a Super Star Destroyer as did the New Republic (Guardian was the name of the ship I believe). If the NR had this ship then why in the heck did Pwoe in Rebel Dream pitch a fit about Wedge wanting the Lusankya?


<I>Guardian</I>, was captured by the New Republic in AJ 15 - I think the story was called <U>Two for One</U> but I am not sure on the name - I did not realy like it :D but be that as it may - either there needs to be one heck-of-a explination forthcomming, or some one screwed up major with that one.

JTessier3
5 October 2002, 02:46 PM
In the first meeting of the HIGH COUNCIL, Tobina Lobi is decribed as having a long snout, being a Chev...

I happen to have a copy of the Alien Anthology, which by the way is a great reference book for the requests I do on the SWAG Site(Shameless plug). A Chev has NO snout and is very different from the description that the author gave in the story.

Maybe the Author should have had a copy of the Alien Anthology??

My two cents... LOL

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
5 October 2002, 02:54 PM
You mean Tresina Lobi; I guess that Williams just left of the 'in' in Chevin.

JTessier3
5 October 2002, 03:01 PM
I have proof from the Star Wars Insider #57 that Tresina Lobi is a Chev. and in Balance Point she's described as a Chev.

Hate to burst the author's bubble... but he goofed!

oh well.... what do I know... I'm just a loyal reader and artist.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
5 October 2002, 03:09 PM
I just checked some of my other sources and you are correct she is a Chev. I guess Williams liked the "partially unrolled snout" line more than he would a "her vaguely human features."

Codym
5 October 2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi
I believe that Vergere became a Force Spirit since she still had unfinished business (talking to Jacen) and possibly something in another book. Yoda might be old but he hasn't been around since the beginning of the Jedi and Jedi becoming Force Spirits (which if we all remember PotJ almost any Jedi can attain that ability) could have just been kept a secret.


Sorry, I cannot buy that explanation. Yoda had been arround for almost a thousand years. I find it doubtful that if Force Spirits were possible before Qui-Gon, Yoda would have known about it. It is also especially doubtful that Vergere, a Jedi much younger than Yoda, would have access to the skill, especially since it seems to tie into the theory of the Living Force, something Vergere certainly didn't follow. More than likely, the powers that be have decide that the NJO (and the EU line of books) are set in a slight alternate universe where all Jedi become Force Spirits. It clears up those niggling inconsistancies and allows authors to use cool plot devices like the Ghosts that would otherwise be cut off from them.

Because its going to take Destiny's Way a while to get to New Zealand, could someone clarify something for me: Does Vergere redeem herself before dying, or does it just ignore her part in the Vong's wave of genocide?

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
5 October 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Codym
Does Vergere redeem herself before dying, or does it just ignore her part in the Vong's wave of genocide?

What does she have to redeem herself for? The only thing that she was a little harsh about was her training of Jacen but that was nessesary. Other than that what wrong has she committed against the Force? Sure she hung out with the YV for half a century (which should raise the question about if she is younger than Yoda [I would say that she is younger than Yoda but Fosh as a species must be very long lifed]), but the whole time she kept her Jedi powers a secret.

And sure she destroyed a biological weapon perfect for use against the YV but she than gave her own life to save Jacen and Jaina along with the surviving members of Twin Suns and other squadrons that were in Ebaq 9 while at the same time killing a couple thousand YV ground troops.

Aside from Dark SIde spirits and the few Force Spirits that we all saw/heard in the films Vergere is the only one that I can remember (though I've been wrong before).

Codym
5 October 2002, 08:57 PM
The darkside spirits were the ones I was referring. The way the Force Spirit thing has been developing in the prequels, I truly doubt darksiders can come back the way Ben and Yoda did, but more than likely leave a stain on the area (the spot above Endor where Palpatine died, the cave on Dagobah.)

As for Vergere, I just felt that she need to atone for all the lives she destroyed by helping the Vong invade the galaxy. She was no innocent lackey. And despite helping Jacen (it worked, but it is dubious to say it was "nessassary") she could have done far much more good helping Republic Intelligence way back in Hero's Trail rather than returning to give away crutical information. She may not have been totally Darkside, as I have suggested before, but she certain wasn't a Jedi anymore.

As for her age, she was much younger than Yoda, and she was only a Knight when she join the Vong (we meet her Master in Rogue Planet.) She may have a life span close to a wookiees, or the Vong may have artificially increased her life. With her dead, I doubt we'll ever find out what truly happened at that time.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
5 October 2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Codym
As for Vergere, I just felt that she need to atone for all the lives she destroyed by helping the Vong invade the galaxy.

When? She did nothing more wrong than Luke did but not attacking the YV (the chapter with Kyp and Luke get into it over Luke's changed perspective of the Force is great). I agree that she could have done more but she risked her fraglie neck to save Luke & Mara's baby in Agents of Chaos and if she didn't go back to the YV then she couldn't have shown Jacen his true potential (and Jacen wouldn't have the the connection to Coruscant's world brain that he has now).

That's right - she was just made a Jedi Knight before she ventured to Zonama Sekot. And she tells all about what happened during her time with the YV right after Jacen tells her exactly what has happened in the 50 years that she has been gone.

Codym
5 October 2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi
When? She did nothing more wrong than Luke did but not attacking the YV (the chapter with Kyp and Luke get into it over Luke's changed perspective of the Force is great). I agree that she could have done more but she risked her fraglie neck to save Luke & Mara's baby in Agents of Chaos and if she didn't go back to the YV then she couldn't have shown Jacen his true potential (and Jacen wouldn't have the the connection to Coruscant's world brain that he has now).


My problem with Vergere is she could have saved billions with her knowledge, yet she has never lifted a finger to help anyone except for other Jedi - or the Vong. Why not join up with Luke and his Jedi during Hero's Trail? Why wait until she can torture an helpless teenager into her way of thinking? Did she believe torture is the only valid teaching method? Has it never disturbed you that her attitudes and beliefs echo those of the Vong? Does this not sound like a character who needs to find redemption?

Now I don't want to get into a slagging match over this, but my statement is as valid as yours. I have no idea what your statement about Luke is referring to. As far as I know, Luke as done more useful things in the war than anyone else, so could you please elaborate.

Frobi-Wan Kenobi
6 October 2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Codym
Now I don't want to get into a slagging match over this, but my statement is as valid as yours. I have no idea what your statement about Luke is referring to. As far as I know, Luke as done more useful things in the war than anyone else, so could you please elaborate.

Before Star by Star Luke sat around asking the Force what he should do. He waited almost to the point of no return for the New Republic before letting the Jedi (except Kyp's pals that did what they wanted to do) take an aggresive role in the fight to save the galaxy. He was babbling on and on about how he needed a 'Great River' to move people and supplies thoughtout the galaxy while everything fell apart around him. During SbS he did come around and let Anakin's team destroy the Voxyn and in Enemy Lines he led Starfighter squadrons against the YV.

As for Vergere's teaching methods - I answered most of those questions in my last post.

Dan Kyrinov
13 October 2002, 06:02 PM
I'd like to bump this thread up because I want a thread with a title that allows unfettered discussion of DW. I mean, in other threads Nova has really been pulling his punches. Borsk alive?

My favorite moments were some of the following, and I hope some others will post with theirs. There were some things about the book that were well-catered to a fan like me.

1) Luke brings the candied seaweed to Vergere in Nylylkerka's little prison dorm room, "Welcome, young master!"
2) All NR units recieve the word: Ackbar is Back. The cheering on the larger ships goes on for an hour. (Me and my friends, who are always loaning out our SW books to each other, have been cheering for much longer than that.)
3) Ackbar in his swimming pool, 'Yeah baby, I got 'em figured out' or something like that. A guy plotting the downfall of the Yuuzhan Vong... in a wading pool! Cool image.
4) Submarine Mara. When all else fails, ram them!
5) I always knew the Bothans were evil! Highest state of war, destruction of whole species... how much you wanna bet they're going to get wind of Alpha Red? And then, use it?
6) And last but not least: I forget who predicted Tahiri might end up trained by Jacen, but it seems to be happening.

Nova Spice
13 October 2002, 06:41 PM
Well some of my favorites were:

1) Jaina's strikeforce uses the battle meld and Kyp says through telepathy that he "Got one!" and Corran counters with "Get another."

2) Nom Anor acts like a fool in front of Nen Yim's damutek. That really painted a picture! :p

3) Of course when a certain Jedi stabbed a lightsaber through a certain Vong's throat!


I'd like to bump this thread up because I want a thread with a title that allows unfettered discussion of DW. I mean, in other threads Nova has really been pulling his punches. Borsk alive?

Hey! :D Did I ever say Borsk was alive? And I'm kinda confused, but have I done something wrong Dan? :?

Warlock-Da
14 October 2002, 09:09 AM
The parts of the book that really got my mind going where all the comments about Shimra being able to "get into the minds" of the Vong.

Even the other Vong are somewhat disturbed by it (The convo with Nom and his 'mentor' [forgot his name sorry] about how Shimra incited such bloodlust among the caste heads to kill that Shaper. And again in the last two pages how Shimra can sense the other Vong just outside the doors. Now alone this could be taken as "he's the choosen one by the gods" yet through out the stories we find out that mostly the Gods are fake, their blessed Cortex was made by other Vong and said to be from the Gods to give the Priest and Shapers more power, and then Vergere's comments about the Vong not being outside of the Force, just merely that the Jedi lack the knowledge of how to 'see' the Vong within the Force.

However this ends up being explained is what I'm looking forward to the most.

wolverine
14 October 2002, 09:33 AM
Maybe shimmur is a jedi, or a sith?

Warlock-Da
14 October 2002, 10:26 AM
I wouldn't go as far as Jedi or Sith. Being able to maniplute the force doesn't always mean someone is a Jedi or a Sith. Baseline, Jedi and Sith are merely ways of thought within the Force shall we say. Like Catholisim is a concept of thought among Chiristianity (Not attempting to bring Religion into it lol).

Also we have to remember that Vong had no concept of the Force as commonly known in the normal SW Galaxy. Perhaps they've had the force along yet grew to know it in a completely different way? It would also stand true then that their concepts wouldn't nessecarily be light/dark, until it's revealed in the novels we really won't know.

Apocalypse
14 October 2002, 12:02 PM
I'm thinking Shimmra has to be force sensitive in some way, not in the same way the Jedi are, but basically the same, only on a different "frequencey". I'm sure this will be explored further in the rest of the series.

Overall I thought this book was quite good. The writing was done well, and the story was interesting. I liked Ackbar's plan and the way it was pulled off. The writing had cinematic feel by switching between the various groups. The arrival of each NR group was timed very well.

I was also hoping that the Empire would get more involved in the war, but the book dealt with this in a pretty good way. It actually made sense for the Empire to not enter the war. Their forces are pretty depleted, and they really don't have much to gain by sending out their defenses to assist their former enemy. Of course, you might say that the Empire and NR stand a better chance of beating the Vong together than either would seperatly, which is probably right. But if the Empire thought it was pointless to attack (NR losing so badly, how can they possibly help) then I can see why they would want to stay put.

One thing i didn't like was that Pellaeon seemed to be a bit more "evil" than in other books. He didn't seem to be as much of a tyrant in other books as he did in DW.

I'm looking foward to the next books though. Should be interesting to see how the war continues, how the government is restructured, and what will happen to the Jedi.

Dan Kyrinov
14 October 2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Nova Spice
Hey! :D Did I ever say Borsk was alive? And I'm kinda confused, but have I done something wrong Dan? :?

Sorry I wasn't clear. No, I mean when you tried to keep a spoiler from someone who's been holding off on Star by Star. I was referring to another thread, where someone postulated Borsk with the new government being moved around. I really appreciate you're careful about spoilers, but I couldn't handle discussing DW concepts and have to be that careful!

On the topic of the Supreme Overlord, I think it is entirely more likely he's a genetically engineered super-being. If the genetic code that pervades all Yuuzhan Vong life is pre-eminent enough that a virus can lay it all flat, then there's got to be enough cross-lifeform capability for some intersting crossbreeds. I think Shimmra is part yammosk/dhuryam.

Another cool Imperial note, if you look at the front cover and see the colored area where the invasion is happening, you see the Yuuzhan Vong have sent a new tendril into the Imperial Remnant's backyard. And if I postulate right, that arrow is pointing towards the Chiss regions also. Maybe thet's why Jag's got some more support and Scaur's got some Chiss scientists working for him. The Yuuzhan Vong are headed into the Unknown Regions, and the Chiss are gearing for war.

Nova Spice
14 October 2002, 04:26 PM
Another cool Imperial note, if you look at the front cover and see the colored area where the invasion is happening, you see the Yuuzhan Vong have sent a new tendril into the Imperial Remnant's backyard. And if I postulate right, that arrow is pointing towards the Chiss regions also. Maybe thet's why Jag's got some more support and Scaur's got some Chiss scientists working for him. The Yuuzhan Vong are headed into the Unknown Regions, and the Chiss are gearing for war.

I saw that too! I pointed that out to my PCs and immediately we all realized that this may have a lot of significance since the next book is Force Heretic I: Remnant (as in Imperial Remnant). Looks like Pellaeon may not have any choice but to join with the New Republic (or rather New Republic Remnant).

And if I remember correctly, I think Winter mentioned that Wedge and Tycho were setting up the defense of Kuat (and setting up resistance cells for the New Rebel Alliance), meaning the Vong are going to be having some serious targets to attack in the upcoming novels. The remaining targets (Kuat, Fondor, Mon Calamari, Corellia, Remnant Space) will be crucial to the Vong and New Republic. Whoever wins in these theaters, wins the war. :(



Sorry I wasn't clear. No, I mean when you tried to keep a spoiler from someone who's been holding off on Star by Star. I was referring to another thread, where someone postulated Borsk with the new government being moved around. I really appreciate you're careful about spoilers, but I couldn't handle discussing DW concepts and have to be that careful!

Thanks Dan, I wasn't really sure if I had done something wrong or not! :p

Paul Klein
14 October 2002, 11:00 PM
Cal Omas is the New Republic's leader? I thought he was killed following the Yuuzhan's conquering of Coruscant...

Marusame
14 October 2002, 11:58 PM
No, he managed to escape. I think it says more in the book, I may be wrong though...

reliant
15 October 2002, 04:49 AM
One of my favorite parts of the book is when they are training with the battle meld. Corran sends a message to Jacen - Try not to kill me next time Solo.

:D

Ardent
16 October 2002, 08:54 AM
I realize I'm a bit late, so this post is going to be messy! ;) You've been warned.

First of all, I want to publicly compliment Walter Jon Williams on some very extensive research! He brought to the fore a lot of details most authors don't even go near, very cool in my opinion. Rarely does a Star Wars novel make me go "Whoa, I'd nearly forgotten about that!"

Secondly, I also caught up on a few continuity errors, but it's easy to let them slide in light of the fact that Destiny's Way was generally well-written and likely without all the information presented at once. Vale being a Duros and then a Neimoidian was odd, but acceptable.

What bothered me was the suggestion that Jacen might be over Tenel Ka. There really was something between them, and I find myself hard-pressed to believe that they'd let something like post-adolescent changes interfere in their relationship. The relationships have been really lacking in continuity and clarity lately, and hopefully it'll be sorted out by the end of the NJO.

Secondly, I'm a bit disturbed about the sudden strength of the New Republic Fleet. I thought they were supposedly a lot more devastated than DW let on. There were something like 100 NR line combat vessels involved in the Battle of Ebaq 9, which is about the size of an entire Imperial Sector Fleet, and there were more ships holding defensive positions at the major shipyards (which are going to crank out more line vessels in about 3 months)...probably something like another two or three Fleet Groups.

The Imperial Remnant likely has about twice the standard Imperial Sector Fleet at its disposal, thanks to Pellaeon's poliical and diplomatic skill and a fair amount of resources available within the Remnant.

The Yuuzhan Vong, on the other hand, seem to have about half their line combat vessels left, which means they're going to be on the defensive for the most part. Especially if they're going to be building new "shipyards" to replace their losses.

Last but not least, does anyone else recall Kenth Hamner ever being mentioned as a Jedi student or Jedi Knight, let alone a Jedi Master, prior to Destiny's Way? I'm checking my six on this one and I'm still boggled.

Corr Terek
16 October 2002, 01:54 PM
Yup, Kenth is mentioned in either the Agents of Chaos duology or Balance Point as being a full Jedi Knight, and maybe even a Master. He's also the one who warns Luke and Mara that Fey'lya was going to arrest them, thus prompting their flight from Coruscant.

Nova Spice
16 October 2002, 03:29 PM
Secondly, I'm a bit disturbed about the sudden strength of the New Republic Fleet. I thought they were supposedly a lot more devastated than DW let on. There were something like 100 NR line combat vessels involved in the Battle of Ebaq 9, which is about the size of an entire Imperial Sector Fleet, and there were more ships holding defensive positions at the major shipyards (which are going to crank out more line vessels in about 3 months)...probably something like another two or three Fleet Groups.

Well I never came away with the feeling that the New Republic fleet was still strong. The forces at Ebaq 9 included Fleet Group One (Kre'fey), Fleet Group Two (Bel Iblis), and Fleet Group Four (Farlander). The only ones left out were Fleet Group Three (Antilles) and Fleet Group Five (Brand). The New Republic IMO is in dire need of ships and Ebaq 9 showed it IMO. ;)

Ardent
16 October 2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Corr Terek
Yup, Kenth is mentioned in either the Agents of Chaos duology or Balance Point as being a full Jedi Knight, and maybe even a Master. He's also the one who warns Luke and Mara that Fey'lya was going to arrest them, thus prompting their flight from Coruscant.

I thought Kenth was working as an Intel officer during the Hand of Thrawn duology. Never really put him through my mind as a Jedi, just a Force-Sensitive in the military.

Apocalypse
16 October 2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Ardent
Vale being a Duros and then a Neimoidian was odd, but acceptable.


Well, in the Essential Guide to Alien Species, it says that Neimoidians are Duros. They're just kind of a separate group, and are descendents of ancient Duros space colonists. Neimodians would be a subgroup of Duros, and therefore all Neimodians would technically be Duros, but all Duros will not also be Neimodians. So one can be both Neimodian and Duros.

Warlock-Da
17 October 2002, 06:53 AM
Actually..:raised: .. regardless .... shouldn't you think it's more the editor's flaw that it wasn't caught prior to print? As close in appearance as a Nemodian is with a desended Duro I can see how he made the mistake. I wouldn't honestly expect an writter to not have some flaw in their novel that the fanbase couldn't find.

I persoanlly prefer to draw upon the overall quality of the books than minor clerical errors. ;)

Nova Spice
17 October 2002, 03:25 PM
First off, I suppose it is feasible that Vale was a Neimoidian from Duro (not necessarily a Duro) and Mr. Williams simply forgot to point that out when Vale was first mentioned.

Second, I have always been under the impression that the Duros and Neimoidians were never one and the same, but rather close relatives that once shared a civilization millennia ago during the Republic. Although I could be wrong on this one. :p

Third, I agree with Warlock in that a minor error hardly takes away from the overall quality of the book, which IMO was quite impressive. B)

wolverine
19 October 2002, 04:48 AM
I thought this book rocked! But i think the meddling of lando and karrde are going to come back and bite the solo's/skywalkers in the ass at some point.

As for tsavong-lah's fihgt, i thought is was well done. You have to remember he was basically ed at that point in time, either win or die. He did the best he could.

But, i was rather peeved that nom anor got away AGAIN!!

EmprorsHand03
22 October 2002, 09:09 AM
This is my first post on this thread so might be a little sloppy.


Originally posted by Apocalypse
Well, in the Essential Guide to Alien Species, it says that Neimoidians are Duros. They're just kind of a separate group, and are descendents of ancient Duros space colonists. Neimodians would be a subgroup of Duros, and therefore all Neimodians would technically be Duros, but all Duros will not also be Neimodians. So one can be both Neimodian and Duros.

Tell that to a Duros. I believe that other sources also say that Duros do not like to be confused with the cowardly Neimoidians or something of that nature. They also refuse to have any kinship with the Neimoidians. I'll have to check The Alien Anthology.


Originally posted by Ardent
Last but not least, does anyone else recall Kenth Hamner ever being mentioned as a Jedi student or Jedi Knight, let alone a Jedi Master, prior to Destiny's Way? I'm checking my six on this one and I'm still boggled.

Kenth is a Jedi. I believe that it mentions that in Edge of Victory when Luke and Mara are about to be arrested by Fey'lya.


Originally posted by wolverine
I thought this book rocked! But i think the meddling of lando and karrde are going to come back and bite the solo's/skywalkers in the ass at some point.

As for tsavong-lah's fihgt, i thought is was well done. You have to remember he was basically ed at that point in time, either win or die. He did the best he could.

But, i was rather peeved that nom anor got away AGAIN!!

I didn't say the book was good. Well it was and Tsavong Lah was pretty much screwed at the end. But so was Nom Anor at the end of Traitor.

Jim Williams
21 November 2002, 10:34 AM
Vergere is tricky. It is also getting exceedingly difficult to balance a lot of EU material after the Force Spirit mystery set up by George.

So how did Vergere learn to be a Force Spirit? I think she discovered it all on her own. I am not even going to compare her to older Jedi and evaluate her on her own merits...

She has the wisdom that comes from living a life she freely chose.
She understands the concept of responsibility.
She had to explore areas of the Force "unknown" at the time.
She was alone with the Force for decades.

I thought Williams did a better job of showing how Vergere believed emotion could...hmmm, fuel the Force, and that Jedi could use emotion without going to the dark side. It doesn't seem quite so heretical to me after reading Williams' explanation through Vergere.

I especially liked her calling Luke "young Master" and when she explained that her loyalty was to the Old Republic. And her Q and A sessions were cool, but didn't leave Luke looking like some half-baked Jedi "Master by default".

Her last words to Jacen were incredible..."I go now to join my Master and all of my old comrades" (or that's close). She's been very lonely methinks.

I thought other parts of the book were great too. Ackbar's impending death coupled with his shrewd strategy were awesome. Somehow I don't think the YV are done yet.

I'm not liking how the Empire is going to come out of this with an unmolested fleet and a huge power vacuum in the galaxy. Why heck...some might even want the Empire to come back!

As for the Council...while I can appreciate Luke linking the Jedi to the people of the galaxy, I think he has done it the wrong way. (Hmmm, I'm writing this like I could call him on the phone and discuss it with him...weird.) I think the new Council is, or has the potential to be, politicized. While Yoda's Council may have lost something when it decided to go to war, Luke's seems too...wishy-washy? The idea that a Jedi's perceptions of the will of the Force may have to be compromised or debated by a political body, with some members acting out of logic or culturally-centered morals, is insane.

On that note, I did like the losing Senator's assertions that the Jedi were deserving of nothing more than any other special interest group. His analysis of how "the Jedi on the scene" are arrogant, bullying know-it-alls that seize control of situations was priceless.

Not to get into it, but my character is an OR Jedi that survived the purge (ho-hum I know, I won't bore you with the details), but he is working with Luke to rebuild the Jedi about 8 ABY. My co-GM and I are having to deal with all of this stuff right now, so I love reading the NJO stuff that is all too relevant for our NR campaign.

Jerome Leavy
17 December 2002, 02:25 PM
Ardent, I agree with everything you said about Walter Jon Williams; it was certainly a great book.

:D

As for the Jacen/Tenel Ka situation.......I look at it from a more philisophical perspective:

1-the only way to truly beat your enemy is to understand them (Sun-Tsu's theory).....well who better to train with each other? Also, they both have extensive experience with YV religion, ideas, practices, and YV methods of coersion.

2-After such a traumatic experience of torture at atttempted conversion by the YV, it is highly possible that Vergere's influence (and ideas of the Old Republic not having relationships being a Jedi) could have created a non-emotional state similar to a Zen-like state (like the Samurai). It may not be a "relationship" of interest, but one one of understanding of similar paths and challenges. I wouldn't count out Tenel Ka yet.......but Jacen has always been focused on his place in the Force......and Anakin's bond with Tahiri before his death would be the ideal place to bring both of them peace. War has a habit of throwing things out of kilter, and I don't think that Tenel Ka will have time to figure out her end anyway.....being the current Queen Mother.

The New Republic fleet strength..........

I've said in other posts along this topic that I interpreted the fleet being absent through the politicians trying to protect their home systems. It was stated several times throughout the NJO series that "...they couldn't risk the populated systems or the industrial systems...". That limited the response that the NR Navy could provide. Now, after Coruscant, the military has decided enough is enough. Destiny's Way also comments that plans to upgrade to military/war production takes time. It's been a few years during this war with the YV, now the results are starting to show and the ships are being seen.

Vergere.......

Whatever her reasons were for her actions, she WAS looking out for Jacen. In order to protect him, she had to hurt him. When amongst the Yuuzhan Vong, how easy would it be to detect he wasn't really in pain? That he wasn't suffering? She also secured the trust she needed to get him, and herself, out of there.

He also benefitted from learning the lessons that even the Jedi of the Republic forgot. He has the youth and optimism to not be as jaded as Vergere is toward the people of the New Republic or life in general. He also has learned to understand the motivations of the galaxy's enemy, and how to look past emotions and perform the actions needed.

The idea of the dark side being within each person is actually not a new concept. Yoda thought and taught in this view with Luke. He of all the Jedi knew it was our own responses to our emotions that create the "dark side" in ourselves (ideally, it was this storage of negative feelings, fear, and personal need to avenge that turned Anakin Skywalker to the dark side to begin with. A desire to work with Palpatine to get things done faster, and easier). The dark side is the negative energies that would permit us to unleash on anything for our own personal gain. What feeds this energy is our inner desires, fears, our anger, and our frustrations. The desire to do anything to give us what we want. That is what Yoda meant by "easier.....quicker, more seductive.......not stronger."


To Jim Williams......

Awesome analysis!

I do think Luke did the right thing to start with the new High Council..........Frey'la and the other non-human races have done way too much damage to the credibility of the Jedi (and a few mistakes on their part). The Old republic believed in their Jedi; the Emperor went on a campaign to eliminate them and spread false stories of how the Old Republic and the Jedi were controlling the people and allowing corruption to put them down. Luke has one hell of a public relations battle to fight........better to let the people come to the Jedi than the Jedi lead the people for now......


And I agree that Vergere knew (and taught to Jacen) the concept of responsibility for one's actions. This will allow Luke and the others to use the Force more effectively with as much risk of going "Dark".......as long as they embrace the philosophy that everyone controls their own actions.......and destinies take care of themselves.

MalkavX
26 December 2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by FrobiWanKenobi


Sure she hung out with the YV for half a century (which should raise the question about if she is younger than Yoda [I would say that she is younger than Yoda but Fosh as a species must be very long lifed]),


I dont think she is that old. What, 70 years or something? We know she recently became a Jedi Knight in Rogue Planet, since her master asked Kenobi and Anakin to go to Zonama sekot to look for her. We also see her as a youn Jedi Knight on Cloak of Deception. And since Thracia Clo Leem was human, she obviously would not have had a padawan for a lifetime. So in my opinion, Vergere is not that old.
As far as the Force Spirit stuff, i dont care, Vergere was meant as a character that challenged everything the Jedis asumed in the past. They wanted a change that rocked the SW foundation, so they thowed a Jedi that didnt conform to the rest. Thats how she became a Force Spirit.

Andrw
9 January 2003, 04:47 PM
Grr i hate when people say the fleet estimates are SO LOW. It also makes me made when in the books they talk about the billions of people lost to YV. That estimate is incredibly low they may just be using billions as in many uncountable loses but if they are using billions on The American scale 1,000,000,000 or even if they are using it on British scale 1,000,000,000,000(i think?) that estimate is incredibly low and coruscant alone would have lots mangnatudes of 1000times more people than those estimates. The total lose of intelligent life forms to YV so far can not be measured with its devastation. We are talking like hundreds of 0s
As for the fleet my estimate is there are about 15000 3/4-mile long ships in NR fleet with 20000-40000 ships being created per year at the NRs current resources(they were going to almost double size in 6months). You can easily see the NR forces have still about 2/5 of the galaxy in its possision iwth about 1/3 of it in the "NW" section of the map still untouched which most of the worlds r hardly untourched resource filled worlds this is easily beleivable. About Ackbars plan to make a small scetion of the worlds and recall all defenses toward them the councl/Chief of state/Military leaders considered but i beleive they did not do it yet. so about 1/2 of those 15K forces r spread out around these areas but maybe even more depending on the amount of recall the NR is making toward Core. The Empires forces id say are atleast 1-5K imperator-class at its most depending on its production and its reaching hands have gone(most likely they are getting resources hidenly from many of the outer rim worlds and the Unknown regions. So 5K at the absolute most could be reasonably but not proabable. I think these are good/poor estimates of the state of fleet strengths but the estimates of NR having something 1K mile long ships is absolutely unbeivably poorly thought and hardly feasable. We are talking of a galaxy only gimpsed at outer rim territorys for the movies and the only Core world seen shows having easily 1,000,000,000,000,000 or more.

Jedi Master Talon
15 January 2003, 10:03 AM
Why in the book Rebal Dream Did they go insane over them Giving the Lusankya to Wedge's fleet when they had two at the time, and why did they not use their second Super Star Destroyer in the plan Ackbar made up? It could have saved some lives. I some one has ideas please tell me.:?

Nova Spice
15 January 2003, 03:09 PM
Speculation is that the Lusankya, one of the original four SSDs, and the twin of the Executor, was built more powerful than the other SSDs. I imagine that Palpatine wouldn't accept anything less for his right-hand man (Vader). That's the reason that Pwoe went berserk. The Guardian might be an SSD, but I bet it only had a third the firepower of the Lusankya.

That's my bet and it works for me. ;)

wolverine
16 January 2003, 08:17 AM
I thought the guardian was in the imperial's fleet. When Han and Leia went to see Pelleion, it was among the ships they saw..

Nova Spice
16 January 2003, 02:57 PM
No no no....Han and Leia saw an anonymous SSD at Bastion. The Guardian was the SSD at the end of Destiny's Way that Chief of State Cal Omas was using as his flagship.