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Jedi_Staailis
4 October 2002, 09:12 PM
Midichlorians. We all know what they are, and most of us hate the entire concept. The entire idea of rationalizing the Force with science is unappealing.

I was thinking about it, and realized that there may be another explanation. I haven't watched the original trilogy again to confirm this, but I can't seem to remember any indication that only certain people have the ability to become Jedi. It's all over the EU, but not the movies. Perhaps the midichlorian reference in Episode I was simply Lucas trying to drive this point home: that not everyone can become a Jedi, that it takes some inborn predisposition. He may not have been intending a scientific explanation at all. And with his point made, he dropped the whole concept from Episode II.

Just a random thought of mine. Comments, criticisms?

Reverend Strone
4 October 2002, 10:16 PM
Yeah I'd agree with that JS. Nice thinking.

I think the Midichlorians were really just a way to provide a plot mechanic for the way in which Anakin was so obviously and yet discreetly special. Why that couldn't have been done by other means, ie- "The Force is exceedingly strong with this child. Can't you feel it?", or having him use the Force to fix his sabotaged Pod rather than that awful mid-race button flicking rubbish, I don't know.

Perhaps there is another plot function of Midichlorians that we don't yet know of? Perhaps something in Ep 3? Perhaps they in some way explain or relate to why Obi Wan and Yoda disappeared when they died?

I guess all we can do for know is guess and wait.

You're absolutely right though. The whole idea seemed to turn Star Wars into Star Trek, and while I enjoy both shows for their own merits, technobabble has no place in Star Wars, particularly where the Force is concerned. Obi Wan's explanation of the Force to Luke in Ep 4 was eloquent and simple, and all any audience ever needed to swallow the concept. Pity GL felt he had to go back and reinvent the idea. I try to ignore it.

Bombaatu
4 October 2002, 10:58 PM
Ah, Midiclorians... the Bovine Excrement poster-child from Ep I.

I too had a "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" moment (any military people out there can tell you what *that* means) when I heard about them. Didn't really kill my enjoyment of Ep. I (loved the podrace and the lightsaber booty-whompin') but definately put a damper on it.

About the *only* reference I can think of from the original trilogy that only certain people could use the Force comes from RotJ:
"The Force is strong in my family... *I* have it... my father has it... and my sister has it." That line would indicate to me that there are people that *don't* have it. Also, since Leia has no Force training at this time, this would suggest that it's a genetic thing instead of just knowledge and training .

Wade Trenor
4 October 2002, 11:14 PM
I saw The Magic of the Myth yesterday, and there was a video playing where George Lucas stated he wanted Star Wars to have an almost religious background. However, an unfortunate part of todays society is the growth of secularism. If Lucas wants to 'relate' to the audince, then that religious aspect has to go... Enter midichlorians.

dgswensen
5 October 2002, 09:08 AM
I'm not trying to be snide, but that was pretty much my assumption the whole time.

After all, saying "the Force runs strong in your family" is just another way of saying it's genetic -- like saying diabetes or red hair runs in your family. Things don't generally run in the family via "magic," even in a universe as fantastic as Star Wars (just my opinion).

My assumption was that since the Galactic Civil War, scientific knowledge had dwindled into a Dark Ages mentality where the scientific component had fallen into obscurity.

That said, I think it could have been handled more elegantly. The midichlorians concept never bothered me as much as Qui-Gon's "public service announcement" explanation of them.

Gee, Master Qui-Gon, what are midichlorians?
Well, Anakin, midichlorians are... (cue slide show montage)

Jedi_Staailis
5 October 2002, 09:58 AM
"The Force is strong in my family... *I* have it... my father has it... and my sister has it." That line would indicate to me that there are people that *don't* have it.
I had forgotten about that particular line. Thanks, Bombaatu .


If Lucas wants to 'relate' to the audince, then that religious aspect has to go...
While this may be true, it would be sad that Lucas feels he needs to do this. Some of the greatest moments of Star Wars are the ones where the Force seems religious. In Episode IV, Han Solo keeps making sarcastic remarks about the Force, but Obi-Wan ignores him, with that slight smile at the irony of it all. And of course, there's Motti's line and Vader's reaction to it. The same stimulus is applied to Vader and Obi-Wan, and we get a look into the nature of the light and dark sides.

Faraer
6 October 2002, 03:49 PM
"Most" of "us" don't "hate" midi-chlorians. People have brain cells, Gandalf has a staff, Perseus is the son of Zeus; these things don't "explain" the mystery. The mystical nature of the Force is parallel with its material correlates, just as the story of a film exists at the same time as an awareness that it's an illusion, and the mythopoeic narrative (a long time ago) is parallel with the surface story (in a galaxy...). Also, don't forget the importance of midi-chlorians in the theme of symbiosis.

Jedi_Staailis
6 October 2002, 04:08 PM
"Most" of "us" don't "hate" midi-chlorians.
You are correct in saying that "hate" is too strong a word. But judging from the (admittedly small) sample on this thread, most of the Holonet community dislikes them. Besides, I wasn't really trying to make a definitive statment, I was just playing off the stereotype of the die hard Star Wars fan (:))while trying shed a little light as to why they are unappealing to many.


[T]hese things don't "explain" the mystery
True again. But those things make a material connection that some of us dislike. I like the opposition between the Force and the rest of high technology Star Wars. Midichlorians make a connection between the two, or a symbiotic relationship, which is the opposite of what I personally would like to see.

Master Dao Rin
7 October 2002, 09:28 PM
All these gripers that have a beef with the chlorians, saying that midi-es "science-fy" Star Wars and take the "mystical" out of the Force are making a rather larger assumption:

If you don't have them, you can't access the Force

This is obviously rubbish and in no way anywhere did this come out in the dialogue of TPM.

The truth of the matter is clearly found in the "public service announcement" dialogue QGJ stated. QGJ said that midi-chlorians help us communicate with the Force, not that having them gives us the power of the Force as the above assumption relies on.

Therefore, if one were to let go of their retentive tendancies and just listen to the dialogue - free of fanboy zeal - you'd hear that:

1) a lack of midi-chlorians simply means it'd be a lot harder for someone to use the Force ... not impossible to use the Force as the assumptions to the contrary take for granted. Proof? Leia on Bespin knowing exactly where Luke was hanging from the weather vane. Leia was using the Force ... (see below)

2) Even if you had zillions of the little buggers crawling around inside you, you still need LOTS of training to decipher the message these things are sending to you, the host ...

Midi-chlorians do nothing other the all the "letting go" mumbo-jumbo Kenobi uses in the original trilogy. They are just another way of saying the Force is pretty darn cool.

Seghast
7 October 2002, 11:23 PM
My take on it is much like Master Dao Rin, with few differences.

I think to a certain extent, anyone can access the Force. Normal people call this brief touch of the Force "luck" or a blessing. They can train all they want, but they'll never be able to really use the Force. At best, they may become an extraordinarily lucky person (i.e, Han Solo).

Midichlorians help seperate the Jedi from these people. They make it easier to touch the Force, to communicate with it, and to manipulate it for good or evil. Essentially, like a magnifying glass making a tiny ant look huge.

I also think midichlorians were introduced so that they could be used to gauge a Jedi's relative strength when compared to another Jedi. That's why in Episode 1, they make the comment that "not even Master Yoda has a count that high." In essence, the more midichlorians you have, the stronger you are in the Force/the better you can access the Force.

Jedi_Staailis
8 October 2002, 10:38 AM
If you don't have them, you can't access the Force
An interesting view. I always assumed that all beings have a certain number of midichlorians. Those that have "enough" are considered Force sensitive. Those who do not are, as Seghast mentioned, merely lucky.


Proof? Leia on Bespin knowing exactly where Luke was hanging from the weather vane. Leia was using the Force
I'm going to disagree and say that this isn't a valid argument. Leia, being the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, probably has a high midichlorian count. If all of them are shouting at you, you don't need training to hear it. Besides, you can't use Leia (someone with a lot of midichlorians) as evidence of what happens to those with low or zero midichlorian counts.

This is a really good discussion. A lot of points I've never considered have been raised. Keep up the good work, everyone. B)

Seghast
9 October 2002, 09:52 AM
One other possibility...

Think of the story possibilities the midichlorian concept opens up.

If you know how/why a Jedi gets his power, and how he's so powerful, especially on such a small level, it becomes genetically possible to enhance Jedi or Sith.

Think about it; genetically engineered SuperJedi or SuperSith, running amok in the galaxy. It becomes the perfect bioweapon, real fast. How's that for a threat to peace?

And, if they have the technology to clone people while going down to the genetic level and supressing traits they don't want (like Jango's powerful will and independence), then they most definitely have the technology to create a new breed of Jedi.

Not that I've ever given much thought to the idea... *cough*

VixenofVenus
9 October 2002, 10:21 AM
There have been huge discussions about how it is possible that GL stole 'Midichlorians' from mitochondria ... every human being has mitochondria in his/her cells ... they are required for the cells to function ...

While they aren't technically 'organisms,' by a real definition of organism, they are in us ... and the amount of mitochondria is generally the same for most humans, with some fluctuation.


So I like to think of them as a race of humans from another galaxy many millenia ago ... that their mitochondria connected them more to the fabric of the universe and gave some of them who could either learn to, or had an innate ability to, sense and alter that fabric.

So when GL introduced Midichlorians ... I take it not EXACTLY as he presented it ... but I twist the truth around a bit to fit my point of view ... besides, "you will find that many of the truths we cling to ... depend greatly on our one point of view."

Jim Williams
9 October 2002, 10:45 AM
Hordes of cloned Jedi. Mmmmm goooood. it gives new meaning to that favorite childhood saying, "Wonder Twins power...ACTIVATE!" Apparently (I haven't read it) but in the teen book version of Episode II, Obi-Wan can feel the clones in the Force and shivers at the thought of a Jedi clone army.

Imagine this conversation...
"This party's over."
"Ahh, my old friend, I'm afraid not. You are quite outnumbered."
"Each Jedi here is worth a hundred Geonosians, Dooku."
"Perhaps, but I have over a thousand droids for each Jedi."
Mace gets a quizzical look, then grins knowingly and shakes his head sadly at Dooku. "Ummm, old buddy, I was taking into account every Geonosian on the planet. Heck, I've got fifteen Maces cleaning up those pathetic 'Super' battle droids behind me now..."

Personally, I would have preferred the Force being left to Episode IV for explanation. All I do with midi-chlorians is take it as it was in the movie...an explanation to something that has minimal plot impact.

Master Dao Rin
9 October 2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Staailis

An interesting view. I always assumed that all beings have a certain number of midichlorians. Those that have "enough" are considered Force sensitive. Those who do not are, as Seghast mentioned, merely lucky.


I'm going to disagree and say that this isn't a valid argument. Leia, being the daughter of Anakin Skywalker, probably has a high midichlorian count. If all of them are shouting at you, you don't need training to hear it. Besides, you can't use Leia (someone with a lot of midichlorians) as evidence of what happens to those with low or zero midichlorian counts.

Maybe I should not have separated that line out? The line: "If you don't have them, you can't access the Force" I stated in bold is the arguement contrary to what I was trying to say.

I think you were misunderstanding my cyber-typing?

What I was trying to say is that you don't need midi-chlorians to access, or in any way have a connection, to the Force. If you live, you are part of the Force (one reason the whole Vong thing is silly to me).

My point of arguement about midi-chlorians was that them existing in symbiosis with all living things is there only to facilitate the ease at which a being can consciously access the Force. This is a fundamental paradigm upon which the Star Wars myth relies, and has been there since Ep. IV. Silly midi-chlorian bashers ... its been there all along!

In a natural state, without ego, every living thing acts and reacts to the Will of the Force without malice or selfishness.

Indeed, as per Kenobi's line - there is no such thing as luck involved; Lady Luck is the ignorant ego's perception of that which it will never comprehend, which is the Will of the Force - a Will that is formless and sentienceless, but nevertheless acts in a manner that suggests such things. It acts with prescience, a Unified Will, but it acts with No Will. It grows and thrives on the perpetuation of Life, but It does not care, and acts with No Form ... No Sides. Sound familiar to Jedi paradigms, no?

All these things you think It is, is only different in your mind.

In game terms, midi-chlorians simply measure the ease at which the ego can interpret its consciousness thru the Force. In other words, its nothing more than an indicator of how easy it is for the being to tap into the Force with Will, Forethought, and Intent.

Anakin has a very large Ego. He is destined to shape the future of the galaxy, and therefore necessarily means he has a large midi-chlorian count, more than any other character in that story saga.

All heroes of your story will, in fact. It is their destiny and it is unavoidable. :)

Now how large a number one hero has is a subjective term, so how much is really relative to your story. But it will certainly be more than X amount, whatever is commonly determined by the GM in your group.

Han Solo certainly has a higher count than most beings in the SW galaxy, but he certainly doesn't have more than the weakest Jedi. He doesn't have too. His destiny is not to consciously shape the fate of the galaxy.

Nor do most people, because most people act without truly thinking or (sadly) listening to their inner Self. They just live life selfishly, merely reacting to Fate, and hoping they come out in one piece on the Other Side.

Simply put, most people don't care.

Oddly enough, neither does the Force from a certain point of view.

Ponder that one, my young padawans. ;)

However, to make this somewhat game relevant, I would suggest <ahem> using Force Points as a measure of someone's midi-chlorian count. Certainly, Anakin definitely has over 20 points by the events of TPM. However, the current game rules don't reflect this idea in the Star Wars story, so you'll have to make do with your own imagination as to how that innocent young womanizer of 8 got so many.

:D

As per your second point, I agree Leia is not a good example if you simply take her for face value. Consider, however, the idea that Leia was not there. Who would have Luke reached out to? Chewbacca? So, the question then remains, would Chewbacca have received the same vision and message?

I certainly think he would have (c'mon, the story couldn't end there, right?), which means that it was the Force, and not the midi-chlorians relaying the message, and that Chewbacca's connection to the Force is what would be responsible for him saving Luke's life. Chewbacca doesn't need the midi-chlorians because the Force is the agent of Fate, not these little buggers.

Hope that helps ... B)

Codym
10 October 2002, 03:43 AM
This is going to sound odd, but my big problem with the Midichlorians is that they were not in Episode 2. When they were introduced in Phantom, they made me wary as they didn't seem to fit into the mythology, but I was willing to let it go because this was only Episode I and that there was two other films to go. The way they are introduced, they seemed like a major plot point, not a plot device as they are usually brushed off as. Time was taken to explain them, moreso than was needed for a simple plot device, so I assumed we would learn more next movie. Then Attack came out and - BANG - no midichlorians, at all, and very little references to the chosen one.

My greatest fear is after all the (undeserved) bad press Episode I got, is that Lucas has dropped them (along with Anakin's lack of father - another thing not mentioned) from the over all plot of the trilogy, and thus making those few scenes in Episode I stand out even more. This may be far fetched, I know, but it is possible.

Master Dao Rin
10 October 2002, 08:31 PM
Nah.

They've served their use, thats all. They are no longer needed for the story. I sincerely doubt we'll hear about them in the next movie ...

Prof. Tricky
31 October 2002, 05:04 AM
All that I can say is that you people are trying to turn Star Wars into Harry Potter,which is without a doubt the worst thing for it.With or without midichlorians,Star Wars is nothing like Star Trek.:mad: .The very notion is sacrilage:mad:

Seghast
31 October 2002, 05:50 AM
I think nothing has changed between the Original Holy Trilogy and the New Holy Trilogy (yeah, I'm a freak for calling Star Wars holy, so sue me!). The more and more I think of it, the more reasons for discrepencies I can think of.

Who told Luke the Force was a mystical energy field? Obi-Wan. Who told Luke that Anakin Skywalker was murdered by Darth Vader? Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan explained later his reasoning for lying to Luke about Anakin, but maybe what he never said was that he lied about the Force, too.

So many of you are angry that the mystical aspect of the Force was taken away by the midi-chlorians, but maybe there was no mystical aspect to begin with. Perhaps Obi-Wan lied to Luke about the Force to hook his interest, to make sure that Luke took up the ways of the Jedi Knights and fufilled his destiny.

Making the Force seem magical made it interesting to everyone, that's not in dispute. It made it seem interesting to young Luke, too. When many of us were young, magic tricks such as those seen at a birthday party kept us amazed. Several of us (myself included) doubtlessly wanted to be able to do those things, to use magic. As we grew up and discovered that there was no magic, only tricks, we grew less interested in the idea of being a magician of sorts. Knowing the truth often makes things more boring.

That's why Obi-Wan lied.

If Obi-Wan had told Luke the truth about the Force as explained in Episode I, Luke wouldn't have been as enamoured with the idea of being a Jedi. Yeah, the death of his "aunt" and "uncle" would have drove him to the Rebellion, but he may not have trained to be a Jedi. He might have found it more practical to be a gunslinger like Han.

If any of this is true, then why didn't Yoda fill him in later? Perhaps Yoda feared the same things Obi-Wan did; if Luke was not kept interested, he might not complete the training. That would leave him open to the influence of the Dark Side, or, he might go off and try to be a gun-toting hero, and get shot real quick.

True, this is all theory (a pretty odd theory, too, I suppose), but it does make some sense. Look at Obi-Wan's track record for telling the truth, after all.

It'd be kind of ironic if it was a lie that enabled Truth, Justice, and the Jedi Way to be restored to the galaxy...

Darien_Shadowfyre
31 October 2002, 07:40 AM
I always took midi-chlorians to simply be single-celled lifeforms that were drawn to the Force. Qui-Gon says "without them, we would have no knowledge of the Force." I took that to mean, if it weren't for them, we'd have a helluva hard time testing for Force Sensitivity. As for the whispering part, I thought he was just being melodramatic. Or referring that the presence of Midichlorians allows them such fantastic bodily control.

Jim Williams
31 October 2002, 07:45 AM
Seghast,

You have an interesting explanation there. I'm sure you realize that Lucas probably intended none of it, but he would definitely do well to hire you on and help him with some of his decisions. I mean that sincerely.

I'm taking the middle ground and love to watch Luke's training with Yoda from start to finish. He tells it like it is and proves it. To me Episode I was tainted by midi-chlorians (and the no father thing). But now it is getting worse with sidestepping the whole thing.

There is no reason, like in d20 or D6, that Qui-Gon couldn't just
!!!SENSE!!! the kid was freaking powerful in the Force. That whole blood test still drives me batty. Qui-Gon senses his strength would have done a few things in my mind...
1) cast doubt on the Chosen Prophecy, especially if only Qui-Gon could sense his power.
2) preserved the mystery of the Force
3) (and most importantly) been more dramatic.

Mad Tech
4 November 2002, 06:24 PM
Okay, my question is, if midichlorians are in a person's body and they connect that person to the Force, a cyborg would have little or no connection to the Force and a dead person (Jedi ghost or Dark Side spirit) would have no connection to the Force. Thusly, Palpatine would never have been able to transfer his essence into another body and even if he could, the new body would have no Force ability unless it too were chock full of midichlorians. It just doesn't make sense.

Mad Tech

Codym
4 November 2002, 07:34 PM
Two points:

1. Qui-Gon could sense how powerful Anakin was, but could not believe it, thus checking the Midichlorian count. The film did not make this all too clear, but it is in there (ie: "There's something about this boy...")

2. Up until Episode 2, once a Jedi died, that was it, they were gone forever. Qui-Gon, the first of the Force spirits, followed the Living Force dotrine, listened to the "Will of the Force" more closely than the others, and was able to bridge the gap once he had "become one with the Force."

The Midichlorians allow access to the Force on a physical plane, and should not be confused with the Force itself. Once the body dies, the spirit/soul/essense/whatever sort of goes with the flow and becomes one in the great circle of life, etc. With special training, a few Jedi learn how to comeback, for short periods of time, to impart valuable knowledge etc. Other than that, we have to wait for Episode 3 for the final answers.

3. The Emperor clone thing was a silly idea, and didn't work even before the Midi's showed up. It's best to just ignore it. Or prove his middle name is Ming The Merciless. :D

Master Dao Rin
4 November 2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Codym

The Midichlorians allow access to the Force on a physical plane, and should not be confused with the Force itself.

Just a minor quibble: Midi-es don't allow access; they allow someone to "hear" the Force so that it makes it easier to tap into or access the Force using conscious thought (thought ... which is anti-Force, if you will).

All life is immersed, a part of, and constantly accessing the Force. Most of the time, as is natural, a body is "at rest" and letting itself get caught up in the ebb and flow of the Force (ie living Life, following your destiny without arguement). Animals, knowing no different, and possessing little to no ego, are in this state naturally. They rarely, if ever, try to break from the "cycle of life".

Intelliegent beings, on the other hand, have this little thing called an ego that thinks its bigger than it really is, and thinks it can force life to go the way it wants to go, to change things the way the little ego would like things to be changed.

And, in time, the ego has learned it CAN do this, by listening to these little symbiotic creatures that hum in harmony with this Life Force, and learning how to interpret the humming that changes when the Force is manipulated in certain ways thru the connection all living creatures have in interaction with it.

And so, in its folly, the ego continues to mess around in things too big for it to understand and comprehend, and things always go wrong.

That might help stem some misconceptions?

Ubiqtorate
7 November 2002, 01:23 PM
<font color=#006060 face="Humanst521 Lt BT">Ever since I first heard of midi-chlorians, this has been a topic of some interest to me. Unfortunately, there's a lot here, and I haven't yet been able to sort out everything on this thread well enough to contribute meaningfully to it. Rest assured I'll be back, though. One question I have for <b>Codym,</b> though - where does the idea that Qui-Gon is the <i>first</i> Force Spirit come from? I hadn't heard that.</font>

Jim Williams
7 November 2002, 02:17 PM
It seems pretty clear to me that Qui-Gon could not tell much about Anikin and had to use a "blood test" to identify what exactly he was feeling. Which reinforces my point that that is such a load of crap for GL to pull in a movie where characters can sense "a presence in the Force I haven't felt in a long time" or "it was if a million voices cried out in pain..."

A blood test? Give me a freakin' break.

Codym
7 November 2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Ubiqtorate
<font color=#006060 face="Humanst521 Lt BT">One question I have for <b>Codym,</b> though - where does the idea that Qui-Gon is the <i>first</i> Force Spirit come from? I hadn't heard that.</font>

George Lucas and R. A. Salvatore. It that whole bit when Yoda and Anakin here his voice (something that was impossible for that time.)

Ubiqtorate
7 November 2002, 05:11 PM
<font face="Humanst521 Lt BT" color=#006060>Here's a thought - have any of you ever given any thought to the "balance to the Force" that everyone, most particularly Qui-Gon in TPM, keeps talking about? Just what "balance" needed to be restored to the Force? In TPM, the Jedi Council is firmly in control of Galactic events, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium, and yet Qui-Gon and others still seem to believe that "balance" must somehow be restored. We see some clues about this "balance," however, in AotC. We have Yoda's statement that arrogance is an increasing problem among Jedi of the Order, coupled with the librarian's assertion that "if it isn't in our archives, then it doesn't exist." Is it possible that the imbalance in the Force is because the Jedi themselves have become to secure in their own dominance? I doubt that many will even argue with me on that one.

So what's that got to do with midi-chlorians? Well, to answer that question, I'm going to refer to something Wade Trenor said a few replies back: "An unfortunate part of today's society is the growth of secularism." I'll wager that that was an unfortunate part of the society of the waning Republic. The Jedi had, as had the Republic in general, become too proud of their ability to explain everything in their world scientifically and empirically. So they searched for the "connection" to the Force, instead of allowing the Force to by mystical and unexplainable. They found the midi-chlorians. Does that mean that midi-chlorians were made up in order to explain the connection to the Force? Not necessarily. But for some Jedi, perhaps the midi-chlorians - the <i>facilitators</i> of the connection to the Force, became more important than the connection itself. Ergo, it wouldn't be enough that Qui-Gon "knew" that the boy was special, or "felt" that he was the chosen one... somehow, he had to "prove" it, or it wouldn't be enough for secularists within the Jedi order.

Codym - thanks for answering my question. I assume that comes from the novelization? I haven't gotten around to reading that yet.

Jedi_Shadow
7 November 2002, 09:49 PM
Ooh... I'm interested in seeing where this thread goes...

strensk
8 November 2002, 07:26 AM
We also have to take into account that the Emperor wanted the Jedi portrayed as nothing more than an ancient, outdated religion. Even those that would have been alive at the tail end of the purge and the clone wars who were old enough to understand what was happening were still going off of the propoganda that Palpatine had set in motion.

During his purge I'm sure he destroyed most evidence that correlated midichlorian count and the ability to become a Jedi.

He would have known about it, but didn't want anyone else to know about it, because in theory any person who knew what they were looking for and with enough motivation to find someone with a midichlorian count high enough to be trained as a Jedi could be a potential and very dangerous threat.

Rogue Janson
8 November 2002, 08:54 AM
Balancing the Force is another issue that was completely dropped in AotC. This seems even stranger than ignoring midi-chlorians - at least there are plausible reasons for that. Surely 'the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force' is a fairly important point that shoudl have been at least mentioned?

As to what it actually involves, I can't really see many grounds for speculations. Ubiqtorate's explanation of increasing secularism within the jedi order is intriguing, but I don't see that much hard evidence for it. I do agree with him that the increasing arrogance of the jedi order is very likely to be relevant, hoping of course that it's another point that's completely dropped for no apparent reason. The explanation that would seem to make sense to me is that the jedi are becoming too arrogant, too dominant and this upset the balance of the force. But I can't quite reconcile this with future events - did the jedi really need to be virtually wiped out and the galaxy plunged into darkness?
The only way I can think of explaining this away is that there was somehow a big mistake, probably due to palpatine's influence and things got, well ... a little out of hand, but this means the Force got it wrong (picture this mystical energy field energy field noticing the mess it's made and metaphircally slapping itself on the forehead). None of that really seems right to me though.
I don't know, maybe the whole point of Anakin is to teach those arrogant jedi about the true nature of the force!.

I think I may now have to hop on over to the rants and raves forum and continue the parallel, but angrier discussion about midichlorians and stuff.

Ubiqtorate
8 November 2002, 01:25 PM
<font face="Humanst521 Lt BT" color=#006060>I'll admit that the issue of Anakin bringing balance to the Force isn't as pronounced in AotC as it is in TMP, but I think it's a little extreme to say it was dropped <i>completely.</i> We still see references to Anakin's being the "chosen one" - again, not as pronounced, but they're there. Part of the issue for that may be that the obscure prophecy of the chosen one was sort of Qui-Gon's "pet prophecy." Nobody else really even believed in it. Yet another possible show that the Jedi were too arrogant - they refused to admit that the Force might be out of balance. By AotC, Yoda and Mace Windu have wised up to the fact that their sense of the Force isn't what it once was, but they still do little or nothing about it. And as for secularism... well, is there any hard proof that it's an increasing problem in our world? That's why it's such an insidious enemy - it's hard to track. One might even call it a Phantom Menace.</font>

Jim Williams
9 November 2002, 05:27 AM
I've had a tawt about balance to the Force, the Jedi, and the Sith.

My co-GM and I have been laboring in our NR campaign (with myself running a resurfaced Old Republic Jedi) what exactly happened in EpIII and what the will of the Force was.

Balance to the Force has been a recurring subject in several threads of late, and like others, my co-GM and I felt that something? was wrong circa EpI with what the Jedi were doing that would make it necessary for balance to be restored to the Force. Either they were too arrogant, too rigid, too secular, or there were too few Sith versus too many Jedi (which I think is ridiculous).

I now feel that the Jedi are not the problem with the balance to the Force at all.

The coming of Darth Sidious is. He will shake the foundations of the galaxy and attempt to destroy all that is good and free. Who will stop him? Perhaps Anikin could have, but he fell to the dark side. The son of Skywalker does, but no guarantee. Even the formidable Yoda hedged his bets and separated the two Skywalkers at birth.

Did the Jedi do anything wrong? No, but I think Yoda realized that Anikin was not going to be able to measure up, or be the one to fulfill the Prophecy. When we see that cut to Yoda with that thoughtful face JUST after Anikin sighs and says "She would do her duty", I think he understood there was only one avenue he could see for Prophecy to be fulfilled...a child.

So I'm thinking GL needed midis to be genetic, although lots of other explanations could have been used. But genetics would probably appeal to the largest possible audience as far as understanding how the strength in the Force could be handed down.

And piss off a LOT of people. But like whether or not Z-95s and Victory-class Star Destroyers appear in EpIII, we'll see "soon".

Bookmaker221
18 November 2002, 12:36 PM
Just a little idea I've been toying with that has no real basis in canon: What if prequil era understanding of Midichlorians is wrong? What if midichlorian are really glorified parasites? Instead of facilitating communication with the Force, midichlorians feed off of the Force, and are thus found in greater numbers in Force users. Every time prequil era scholars looked at a Jedi, there were Midichlorians, and as normals didn't have that many, they concluded incorrectly that Midichlorians must be the special buggers that create Jedi. During the Clone Wars and/or Purges, someone figured the goof-up out, and re-wrote the books. Midichlorbangs are now defunked, and the Force is given a further "mystic: interpretation.