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Thread: Jedi Hating

  1. #1
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    Default Jedi Hating

    I've been looking at these boards for a few days and i gotta ask

    Whats with all the jedi hating. "Jedi overpowered?" " Jedi bating." "Jedi Hunter."

    Jedi are so cool so why do people hate em so much?
    So be it, Jedi.

  2. #2
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    Arrow

    Moving to Rants and Raves forum.
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  3. #3
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    I think a lot of it stems from when we GM, and have one or 2 jedi in the group, for what ever reasons, they tend to overshadow all the other players. If we have gaming sessions where the others are the focus, and the jedi or the force itself, takes a back burner, these 'jedi' ◊◊◊◊◊ and moan. I know i have had a few like this.

    It might also be that compared to other characters at the same levels of improvement, jedi characters, with using a specific 'pool' of force powers become too over powering. To a point where you have to put npc's in there which would kill nearly every other character you have, just to challenge the jedi character(s).

    other than that, i can't come up with anything.
    You cannot dodge it if you don't know it is coming, and you cannot shoot at what you don't know is there!

  4. #4
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    Well... personally, I think the Jedi ARE overpowered. The makers of the RPG are in quite a bind where this is concerned. Look at TPM and AotC... the Jedi can deflect blasters with ease, send people flying with the point of a finger, and hurl themselves out of moving airspeeders to land safely many stories below... on another moving aircar. Non-Jedi can't even come close to doing this kind of thing.

    Most game systems have a very delicate balance among character classes. In old 1st edition D&D, the mages, who had spells, couldn't use armor or anything larger than a dagger -- period -- and the rules they came up with to justify this were fairly ridiculous in nature. But it was their attempt to make all the character classes roughly equal in terms of appeal.

    In the Star Wars RPG, just by nature of the kind of universe you have, you have one class -- the Jedi -- who possess an entire library of abilities that non Force-users can't hope to touch. And thus it is very easy for them to overshadow other characters.

    They are overpowered compared to normal people, and IMHO they need to be, because that's the way the story is. But that can upset some people because it defies the notion of game balance, which is very important to some players and GMs.
    I am the Waffler!

  5. #5

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    Ö.Begin rant

    My hate of Jedi started before I started playing the SW RPG. I have always preferred a scoundrel or soldier like character, like Han and WEDGE! I think the force is cheap.

    Woo hoo Iím Luke Skywalker. I can fly loops around ppl b/c I use the force to help me.

    Hi, Iím Wedge. I am just that darn good.

    I even hate the force in books. I dislike the NJO books and also try as hard as I can to not use force powers in JK II.
    The force just leaves me filling empty inside. I would rather make something happen b/c I was skilled/lucky enough to do it on my own. Not b/c I had the ability to call on some sort of magic to help me do it.

    Thatís why I hate Jedi.

    End rantÖ.
    The Force? Bah, who needs it! That's right. I did not like Episode 3.

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  6. #6
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    Hate is a strong word, I do not hate Jedi. However two things make them less attractive to me:
    1) They are a dime a dozen. Almost all new players want to play Jedi, and many veteran players still wiould prefer to play Jedi. This makes them so common as to be dull. I did an open enrolment for a PbP game and 90% (9 out of my 10 replies) wanted to play Jedi. After a adjusted the game saying that it would only have one Jedi in it, and said that there were no more open slots for jedi, I STILL got character submissions for Jedi.

    2) They are more powerful, level for level, than any other class. Now this can be compensated by forcing players to stick to the Jedi code pretty strictly, but it is still present. Sure, as you pointed out in another thread, Jedi are presented in the movies as combat gods. However there is much to be said for game balance over following of canon. There in lies the reason some of us twak the Jedi classes a bit to make them fit in a mixed group.

    If my game will logically support a Jedi PC or two I will not tell the players that they cannot play them. However I expect to see an interesting and unique Jedi concept that I have not seen a thousand times already. I also tell them right out that the Jedi code will be followed as I interpret it, and straying from it will get them kicked out of the order, there by not allowing anymore Jedi levels. Also DSPs will be given for what I deem a dark act, and I will take away a character if that character gets too many DSPs.
    Dr. Worm
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  7. #7
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    The foolish Jedis are blind to the power at their finger tips and put ridiculous restrictions on themselves to limit their own power they are weak and ignorant and deserve nothing more than a pianful death at the hands of a true master of the force Palatine.

  8. #8
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    I even hate the force in books. I dislike the NJO books and also try as hard as I can to not use force powers in JK II.
    This statement is almost a paradox in nature. If you hate the Force, then'd you'd love the New Jedi Order. One of the central themes is the Jedi not being able to use the Force against the Yuuzhan Vong.

    As you may know by now, I happen to think the NJO is the best thing to happen to Star Wars; just a notch below the release of the prequels. It is the ultimate Star Wars tale and is far superior to every other novel, on par or even better in terms of story than even the highly touted Thrawn trilogy.

    As far as Jedi go, it's hard to balance them out with the other characters. The only way of doing it properly is to allow the non-Force using PCs to have significant advantages over the Force-users in many situations. That comes from good role-playing and a dedicated GM.
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  9. #9

    Default

    I don't hate or dislike Jedi, but they can be very problematic in a campaign as their power grows...

    We have several Jedi in our campaign, and most are weak beginners, struggling to stay alive against even stormtroopers. Then there are the two powerful Jedi, and the mid-level...

    The mid-level Jedi (6d sense/control 5d/alter) is usually left behind at the base. Thanks to the character's personality, it's no problem excluding him from missions. He's meditating or working out while the rest of the characters are off fighting for their lives.

    The two strong Jedi (one is at 7d+2 c/s/a, the other at 9+2 c/s/a) are more of an issue. They make the missions way too easy because of their strength. Worse still, their personality doesn't make it logical for them to refrain from going on missions like the other.

    Trigger and I both GM, him more than me, and we can agree that they're too powerful. When I run a game, I try my best to give the Jedi reasons to not go on the mission. Trigger allows it, but makes difficulties for Jedi obscenely high. Example: a telekinesis roll of 30 and up will lift an X-wing, but my roll of 100+ (i think it was 107) was barely enough to lift an X-wing-sized stone statue and move it two feet.

    We've finally seem to hit a compromise, though. His Jedi, the 7+2 one, is busy learning how to forge armor and weapons, and often has to stay behind on missions to continue his work. My Jedi, as befitting his personality of having fun, has cut way back on the use of the force in favor of making things more exciting for himself, and getting a good laugh (he's barely 18, what can you expect?).

    All the players agree that the Jedi are killing the campaign in general. We've talked about choosing an era for the next campaign that has little or no Jedi, such as Rebellion Era.

    I think it's situations like these that make so many people on the boards here dislike Jedi. Weaker-Jedi aren't much of a problem (for a while), but after a while... Well, after a while, it's just about time to consider starting a Rebellion/Rise of the Empire Era campaign, and *dare* a player to try and use a Jedi...

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Dr_Worm
    ... They are a dime a dozen. Almost all new players want to play Jedi...
    I think this is one of the things I "rant" about.

    Sure, Lucas's stories (the movies) focus on Jedi. And they are unique to the SW universe. But, what many players don't choose to notice is how even Lucas himself tries to indicate the ratio of Jedi to Non-Jedi in the population. Jedi are very rare in the galaxy. Even Force sensitive people are shouldn't be a dime-a-dozen. But, it seems that everyone wishes they were.

    I'm not saying that every RPing group shouldn't be "allowed" to have a Jedi as a member. They are "heroes" after all. But, ignorance to the actual rarity within the population is what irks me.
    Also, Jedi should be acting under the code. This means that there might not be "hard and fast" rules which limit the PCs. But, the limitation should exist which are controlled mainly by roleplaying.

    Lucas and most of the other sources are pretty clear about the Jedi not letting their own run around wild. The Code even tries to discourage using the Force at all if possible! Even the NJO series addresses the rift between Luke's and Kyp's philosophies. But IMO Kyp doesn't even hold a candle to the antics which other "Jedi" on these boards claim to do.

    Also, dgswensen put it well:
    Most game systems have a very delicate balance among character classes. In old 1st edition D&D, the mages, who had spells, couldn't use armor or anything larger than a dagger -- period -- and the rules they came up with to justify this were fairly ridiculous in nature. But it was their attempt to make all the character classes roughly equal in terms of appeal.
    In the Star Wars RPG, just by nature of the kind of universe you have, you have one class -- the Jedi -- who possess an entire library of abilities that non Force-users can't hope to touch. And thus it is very easy for them to overshadow other characters.
    I agree that the original source material (movies) Jedi are very powerful. Maybe more powerful than the average man.

    But, the other hero classes should NOT be average. They are also hero classes.
    So, the imbalance of Jedi (versus other PC classes) is my beef. Not that Jedi are overpowered against the common man.

    And finally, I have ranted previously because I was tired of the posts which consist of Power Gamers (or min-maxers/munchkins - take your pick) who figure out the new race, Feat, or PrC combination which creates a Jedi who wields 8d8 damage with a critcal range of 8-20.
    Yes, that's right 65% of the time, the Jedi will ignore VP and go directly to WP and deal an average of 36 pts of damage.
    I can't hit the broadside of a bantha.... good thing my droid can

  11. #11

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    During the Old Republic and Rise of the Empire eras, Jedi almost never travel with non-Jedi over a long period. In the Rebellion era, if you're keeping to the intent and meaning of the movies, there aren't any spare Jedi to be PCs. I don't see why you'd often have Jedi and non-Jedi in the same group anyway, unless for some reason you specifically want a mixed group, which is just a convention of D&D.

  12. #12

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    This statement is almost a paradox in nature. If you hate the Force, then'd you'd love the New Jedi Order.
    I actually hate the NJO books not so much b/c of the Force but because of the Vong. I just find them too Borg like and un Star Wars. Other wise I dislike the fact that there are more Jedi and that the Jedi and the Force are key parts to the series.

    My favorite books have been the Han Solo trilogy and the X-wing books.
    The Force? Bah, who needs it! That's right. I did not like Episode 3.

    In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you right now.
    - Tealíc SG SG-1

  13. #13
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    I don't hate Jedi or anything (I want to have a Jedi character sooner or later, but I'd rather not have it as a main character or anything.)

    Just, to me, you can't be as creative with a Jedi- everyone knows they can do darn next to anything.

    Once I did a single adventure just getting used to RPing, and there was a big chase scene. My character was a soldier with the highest dexterity you'll ever see (although I think my mentor wasn't the smartest, as I think it was TOO high). Anyway, I was chasing a Jedi on some rooftops, then he jumped down- 20 stories, he landed and ran off.

    I looked around, assessed the situation, took out my grapple spike launcher and rolled a high score on my dexterity check. I grappled an airspeeder, jumped down and swung for a little bit, then did a little flip just for fun and landed beautifully. I actually did so well that the onlooking people in the crowd showered me with credits (again, uneducated, I don't think credits can be showered on someone... maybe, though).

    A little later I had lost the Jedi. This time I rolled a perfect score and got dragged about 5 meters off the ground. Such a great score that I jumped off and landed right on the guy I was chasing.

    Now, as a Jedi, if you're THAT good with a grapple spike launcher then you might as well take over the galaxy on your own. At least in my opinion (Jedi aren't supposed to be good with blasters or blaster-like weapons).
    "Sense of humor? Me? Now THAT'S funny!" -Me

  14. #14
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    TO give it into a perspective.

    The Ongoing Sparks force 7 campaign of D6 starwars, is set in the rise of the empire. Sparks module #1 is set 10 years exactly before Starwars A New Hope. Every new module made, advances the time line 1 month. There are jedi hunters out there.

    When a player first makes a Jedi character, he (or she) IS warned that there are jedi hunters out there. We have several ratings. The first time in a module a Jedi character rolls above 40 on any force skill, or when using any normal skill enhanced by the force (concentration!!!), he or she is now known to the Jedi hunters of the Empire.
    Once he or she is known, the next time he or she rolls above a set target number (which drops by 5 every year, currently at 30), they have triggered Force vision #1. The second time in THAT module they hit said target number, they get Force encounter #1. The third time in that module, (or the first time in a module After they have had encounter #1), they trigger force vision #2. Then the second time in that same module they hit the trigger number they get force encounter #2. And so on and so on.
    Force encounter 1 has one FULL 12 man storm trooper squad and 1 dark jedi. Force encounter 2 has 2 full squads, + extra troopers for the heavy weapons, a more powerful jedi and a royal guardsman/dark side apprentice. Force encounter 3 is harder, and the final one is against Vader himself. If you get that far, you have 2 options... TURN or DIE!

    Because of how hard these can be on the other players, the GM has to give a warning to the other players on whether they wish to participate in the encounter, or whether they wish to leave the activating jedi to his own demise. THose who DO choose to stay and help get more CP. And yes, we have had a number of deaths / capturings due to these.

    But even with the above, the predominance of players wishing to be jedi is great.

    One of the modules, in which i was the lowest sheet numbered NON force user, all of us non force users literaly took a back seat to the 2 force users, even though they were 2 full sheets lower than even ME!. Just because of their force powers.....


    For note; sheet break down:
    Starting character to module #7played = sheet 1
    Modules 8-14 played = sheet 2
    Modules 15-21 played = sheet 3
    Modules 22-28 played = sheet 4
    Modules 29-35 played = sheet 5
    Modules 36-42 played = sheet 6
    and so on and so on.
    Each module played is worth an average of 7-8 CP (most modules are a base 6 or 7 CP + 1 from good rping) so each full sheet is roughly 50cp.
    You cannot dodge it if you don't know it is coming, and you cannot shoot at what you don't know is there!

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by Dashdar
    I actually hate the NJO books not so much b/c of the Force but because of the Vong. I just find them too Borg like and un Star Wars. Other wise I dislike the fact that there are more Jedi and that the Jedi and the Force are key parts to the series.
    YES! gods forbid a Star Wars book has Jedi or the Force in it! What were they thinking?

    Originally posted by Sasche
    I'm not saying that every RPing group shouldn't be "allowed" to have a Jedi as a member. They are "heroes" after all. But, ignorance to the actual rarity within the population is what irks me.
    Also, Jedi should be acting under the code. This means that there might not be "hard and fast" rules which limit the PCs. But, the limitation should exist which are controlled mainly by roleplaying.

    Lucas and most of the other sources are pretty clear about the Jedi not letting their own run around wild. The Code even tries to discourage using the Force at all if possible! Even the NJO series addresses the rift between Luke's and Kyp's philosophies. But IMO Kyp doesn't even hold a candle to the antics which other "Jedi" on these boards claim to do.

    I have ranted previously because I was tired of the posts which consist of Power Gamers (or min-maxers/munchkins - take your pick) who figure out the new race, Feat, or PrC combination which creates a Jedi who wields 8d8 damage with a critcal range of 8-20.
    Yes, that's right 65% of the time, the Jedi will ignore VP and go directly to WP and deal an average of 36 pts of damage.
    Our game has a few Jedi, i play one of them. This is actually dual-use for me. for one it allows me to flesh out the character i've created even more and find out more about him. and secondly it allows me to pressure the other Jedi PCs into behaving by the rules. Thankfully, i don't have to excercise number 2 that often.

    The people who would have trouble following the rules of being Jedi, NEVER PLAY THEM. that's right. i'm gifted with a group that realizes when they don't want to play by the rules, they don't pretend to be Jedi. a pity others can't do this. i suggest anyone just learning to play never plays Jedi, by the by. and for all you GMs with "problem Jedi" disallow those players to play Jedi. simple. easy. keeps things proper.

    as for min/maxers, powergamers, and munchkins: Rocks fall, all die.
    Last edited by The Ghost; 2 August 2003 at 02:32 AM.
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